No not a good excuse for breeding sterile/sterile line gliders at all. Those same people can get those sterile glider prices from most reputable breeders by getting a healthy baby that is a neutered "pet only" glider.
I for one would much rather sale a pet only glider. Then I know for sure that person is looking for a pet to love.

yes but sometimes that is the problem.. not so much in the sterile lines, but other undesirable traits, the gliders are sold at a much cheaper price, and given to people who go and breed them anyway, responsible ownership begins in the heart. we can look at people and think they are responsible, only to later find out they had another side to them,

just as us rescue homes used to count on that responsibility to the owners neutering, we now neuter before they leave our home, we try to stop the breeding, but the sad fact is.. it is up to the individual owner to be responsible.

I sat at a table one day to hear how someone took their sterile glider in to get neutered (responsible ownership), only to have the vet, tell the owner that the glider had no reproductive parts.

I was taken back, simply because if the glider was missing internal body parts, then i wondered what else could have been wrong.

yes I agree it does make it nice for responsible owners, but sadly it is those that are irresponsible, that is the main problem. the sterile line itself should be stopped.

I think too many things are kept secret and whispered about behind the scenes. Why would a breeder hide potentially sick gliders and not try to find out the origin (It's happened)? Why try to specifically steer people to an innocent breeder leading people down a totally false road? What would anyone have to gain by that?

Why would people not involved with that want to BE involved with that? Why do certain people support breeders who have documentable (by multiple veterinarians) cases of malnourishment, etc., going on? Why is lying and bad husbandry supported and even encouraged at times depending on who the breeder is? It certainly isn't for 'the good of the glider', but for the good of someone's pocket book.

I think if we don't stop turning a blind eye to issues because of WHO the breeder is, it's going to be disastrous for gliders in general.

We need to stand up and support breeders who are doing everything in their power to produce clean lines and who SHOW they really do care more about the gliders in their care than the cash they might receive and stop coddling the ones we know aren't doing "right" just because of who they are and how long they've been a part of the community.

I think that some long time members think they are above having their practices questioned. They've become complacent in the knowledge that they are protected in some way and we can't keep doing that. Those who are breeding the sterile lines, etc., KNOW that they are not breeding to enhance the species and if not; WHY are they breeding at all?


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I agree about the sterile line breeding... big no-no!


It does not matter whether they are breeding to sell the joeys as pets or breeding to sell the joeys as breeders or as pets... there will never be an end to sterile line breeding as long as they are allowed to reproduce!

The males can be neutered... but the females can not.

I agree and I have a pair of gliders and the female is a mosaic from sterile lines. I was offered them by a good friend of mine who is going through some rough times. I wanted them because I know alot of wondeful glider owners who would die to have a mosaic, do NOT want to breed, and simply don't have the money to be buying a $3000 mosaic. So, I got the pair with those people in mind. In fact, the female has a joey on the way right now and if it's a male mosaic I already have someone in mind who I'd like to give him to. I didn't get them thikning about $ at all, but simply wanting another mosaic pair(because I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE breeding mosaics because you never know what you're going to get!) and so that I'd have mosaic joeys available that could go to pet-only homes. The female has had some of the most gorgeous mosaics I've ever seen and if they were non-sterile they'd probably cost around $4000. Why is it that only poeple with alot of money should be able to have such gorgeous gliders?

Also, I think that when dealing with the sterile mosaic lines it's a bit different then if you were, for example, dealing with sterile leu or cremino lines... Since you only need one mosaic parent then with each generation you breed you are breeding them out further and breeding out the sterility. There are only 3 mosaic lines, so why not try and save that 3rd line? I'm not doing that with mine, like I said, I hope to be able to sell all of my possibly-sterile mosaic as pet-only, but for those that would like to "save" the line, I don't see why that is wrong if they do it the right way. Simply neuter any males and sell the females as pet-only unless they are mosaics that are going to a responsible breeder that will also breed them out. Eventually you will begin to get males that can produce and if you continue to breed certain males from thta producing line then after a couple generations I believe that the sterility and any other health issues that might go along with it will be bred out.

In the meantime, alot of people wanting pet-only mosaics will be able to have them.

IMO, it's good for that mosaic line AND for glider owners wanting "fancy" mosaics but not having $3000+ sitting around.

Exactly what I was thinking Meghan.

What is the right thing to do? Does the responsible breeder keep the female so that she does not fall into the wrong hands? And then of course stop breeding that line.

I'm just thinking outloud here. Trying to understand all of this. And now maybe feeling a little guilty because I am in love with some of the ~colored~ gliders and would love to have one as a pet. I am not soon to be able to afford what a color from cleaner lines cost. (And I'm still new enough I don't know who really has clean lines to be pricing theirs so high.) I DO to a degree understand some of the ideas of wanting more $$$$ for the special colors. Do alot of breeders offer to neuter colored males before selling for DEEP discounts? I HAVE seen several ~probably sterile~ colored gliders going for maybe $500 (can't remember if they were leaving neutered or not.) Then I see 5th generation, from sterile lines, now producing, however they say it joeys for sale!

Something I have observed with the colored joeys being born. Seems like with a set of twins you'll get a platinum mo. going for a couple thousand, and a regular WFB for much cheaper depending on breeder/lineage. Now those little whitefaces are precious but sometimes it appears they are the leftovers. I guess what I'm pondering is how many grays does it take to get let's say a platinum?

Nicole, I was still typing and proofing my post when you posted yours. I know! I'm slow! Just trying to word everything carefully. I don't want you to think I was posting about your mo's! What a coincidence! (sp.)

Ugh! Maybe I should just sit back and watch still!

Who cares if someone wants a mosaic but can't afford one?!?! That's part of the problem. You don't breed a sterile line because the people you think are your friends today and who just want them as "pets" will turn their back when they see dollar signs and they'll end up breeding. You can NOT guarantee that it won't happen, so why chance it?

Just ask Alicia what happens when you give a FRIEND a beautiful colored glider so they can experience it for themselves out of the kindness of her heart. Where did that get her? And many, many others like her.

I want a BMW, but I can't afford one.....sometimes we just have to live within our means and not want things we can't afford or, save up for one if we really, really have to have one and get one that is going to enhance the lines, not muddy it up further.

(I'm not picking on you Nicole, I've heard that countless times from others as well and it just doesn't make any sense to me.)

Yes most of the good breeders do.. they would rather them go to a non breeding home for the most part.

Y not for sterile lines I have a better time finding them homes then my producing ones.... and I offer fixing for the producing ones...

Laurie, producing sterile line joeys has NOTHING to do with friends, NOTHING!!! It has everything to do with buying cheaper "breeders" and selling sterile line joeys.

If you breed you SHOULD have a home for every baby you produce and then breeding would be no problem.

If you don't have room for ALL your joeys then you DON'T have room to be breeding. PERIOD!!!

I have NO problem with breeding and selling them discounted to "PET ONLY" homes but if you have a problem with space for joeys you sure as heck do NOT need to be producing, much less producing sterile line joeys. PERIOD!!!

AGAIN, I stress there is NO reason to breed STERILE lines. NONE!!! NONE!!! NONE!!!

I offer my male mosaics on a neuter contract for $750, and mine are a non-sterile line and also leu hets. I also recently offered a neuter contract on a future male leu for $500. But, I'd rather lower my price for a wonderful pet only home than to breed sterile lines

As for being in it for the money, I'd love to see some of that money! I just sold a leu female for my asking price, but a huge chunk of that is owed to my new vet as when we moved I took all my gliders in for a "get to know me" visit, and while she did offer me a discount, it was still over $1000 for exams and fecals... When I did my taxes last month, and did my glider records/expenses, I'm in the hole almost $8000 and that's just in one year (good thing hubby doesn't do the taxes, lol)

AMEN SISTA!!

There is NO REASON what so ever to produce a sterile or even *POSSIBLE* sterile line.

Was there not just a leu that was produced from one of the mosaic possible sterile lines that was also known to be *possibly sterile*?

As for selling *Pet Only* gliders, personally, I will NOT sell a *Female* as a pet only. Sorry folks, dont care who ya are, you can tell me until you are blue in the face that the glider will always remain with you, you will never rehome it, but lets be realistic, gliders can live up to 15 years, that is a long time to be saying never, especially when none of us know what tomorrow is going to bring. Therefore, I will, and have sold pet only gliders for less expensive, and only once did I not have them neutered prior to going to their new home. My Pet onlys will ONLY be males, and they will be neutered prior to leaving my home.

That is the ONLY way to guarantee a glider will not be used for breeding, when it leaves your home, or years down the road.

And Eddie, I also would like more info on the joey with a cataract. I like to send that kind of stuff over to Tim to read up on. I had not heard of that happening to a joey as of yet.

Like I said when "I" brought up the sterility issue in this thread, I may become VERY unpopular for putting this out there but...It is KILLING me. I'm not one to ever start drama so I have not made a big deal about it. Sterile lines should be pulled from EVERY breeding program. Why? Most of if not all of the females go on to produce, these females wind up who knows where and with who? They are bred with non affected lines, guess what now you have sterilty in EVERYTHING! There is one breeder out there who is actively breeding a sterile line mosiac with a leu line. I did not hear of this by word of mouth but actually saw it publicly advertised on her website while looking for a glider for myself. Now please enlighten me, because I am surely missing something! WHY? What is the reason for that? To me, there is NO REASON worth listening to, it is APPALLING!

Yup, all glider related, I bought a wf creamino & a wf creamino het last year, so that attributed to that in a big way, along with the normal vet bills and a couple emergency vet trips and a partial tail amputation.. It adds up fast! Had I not bought that pair, I would only have been about $1000 in the hole.

It would be easy to do being that much in the hole. Didnt she purchase a cremino last year? I believe last year they were going for like 7 grand werent they? I could see that! ROFL!!

Sorry Nicole but wow that really reads like a crock of glider poopy. I wanted a mo(ringtail mo to be precise) and a leu .......................................................................
I DID NOT GO LOOKING FOR STERILE LINES TO GET THEM!!!

I have ran across several offers for sterile mos for $500 ish but they are sterile lines.........DUH..........genetic defect! I can get the same mo(NO GENETIC DEFECTS) from a reputable breeder with a "NON BREEDING CONTRACT" wow same money and none of the genetic problems.........BRAINSTORM!!!

Sorry not buying the "I want to help out the poor folks who only want to spend half a grand on a glider" story. People who are broke are NOT looking for a special colored glider to buy..........sterile or not! OH AND BY THE WAY DO YOU EVER WORRY THAT IF THEY CAN'T AFFORD THE GLIDER THEN maybe THEY DON'T HAVE THE MONEY FOR THE vet EITHER???

LOL, Karen it really has very little to do with the money we lose on gliders but the joy in that baby. OMG it is soooooooo much more than money. They are amazing. Not that people want to spend so much on gliders.......it's just near impossible not to. vets, well we have to pay whatever they charge period. Bedding, well it's hard to resist, even my gliders are mad at me b/c I have been busy making toys and they are not getting them. Food ......OMG I soooooooooo need like the grocery-aholics anonymous. I go way overboard in the produce section. I try so hard but can not resist, they may love it & it looks so good UGH!!!!!!!!!!!! It's not my fault, heck I even do it with other peoples gliders, I really can't help it.

Very Good Question Karen. I dont spend near the amount of money as some folks have, but I would like to say what my goal and objective is for being a breeder. May I also add in here, I call myself a hobby breeder, as I dont do it as a living or for income to support any of our household finances.

My Objective: To be able to produce a clean, healthy line of beautiful, loving gliders that others can enjoy as much as I do.

My goal: to watch and learn through both interaction with the gliders themselves and veterinarian visits for various testing and recording of weights, growths, xrays and blood work to work towards a deeper and true understanding and knowledge to improve the quality and care of sugar gliders. Educating myself on a daily basis, be it through my own glider, or helping others with theirs.

I am not into breeding gliders to make a huge profit, just as I do not own my store front pet store to make a huge profit, however, I do hope that somewhere down the line, I can and will be able to see a profit to continue with the proper vet visits and research that needs to be done to gain a better understanding of these critters.

Karen, I have to chuckle, if you seen how much I have spent for my pet store and I am still not able to pay myself and still showing a loss at the end of the year, you would really be surprised.

For any business it takes several years to see a profit, but in the talking of gliders, I believe, and this is only my opinion, if you keep very healthy gliders, you take them in for their routine checkups and the first sign of something being out of place,(even if it shows nothing), and you have a good relationship with your vet,(that way if it is indeed nothing you wont have to pay an arm and a leg), in about 5 years or so, you should be able to see a profit. Even if it is a small one. And I dont believe ANYONE should get themselves into deep debt or owing more than you can actually afford to get into breeding.

Like I tell people about my shop, I am not out to make a huge profit, but the store needs to make some sort of profit to keep it going and to keep us there to continue educating folks on the animals they come in about.

How true this very statement is Karen.

But lets just go with the start up of that. You have to pay 5k per glider, you need two of them, that is 10k. Then you need the cage, lets say they build their own, that is still going to run a min of 200 dollars. Now lets add in a couple cage sets, toys, and at least one wheel. Another 150.00 now lets do food,which I happen to think is the cheapest thing about a glider, 50 a month for two. Treats and worms, another 50 a month.
vet visits, one when you first get them. Minimum 75 per glider if you are getting fecals, UA's done, if you add in blood work,(which I do along with xrays) add in an additional 235.00
Second vet visit 14-21 days later to make sure they are still clean, minimum 65 dollars per glider.

Now lets hope from now until the time they are able to breed, they do not need an emergency vet visit to take place, cause that is a few hundred dollars as well. Then by the time they are breeding and producing we have to take in to account that the overall price of gliders like the one you purchased has dropped a few hundred, possibly a thousand dollars. So now you have the first joeys born.

You get ready to sell them lets say for 4500 a piece. You have to take them to the vet for a wellness check prior to sending them to their new home. I myself do not make the owner pay for this visit as I feel it is my responsibility to make sure my client is getting a healthy glider. So you happen to sell them both, but one of them, you have been talked down in price because they want that male as a pet only. So one goes for 4500 the other only 1200.00

you send them to their new home, however, you dont have the whole 5700 dollars in front of you, because it is not officially yours, or at least it shouldnt be, until the new owners have taken the gliders to the vet upon arrival and have gotten a free and clear bill of health. If they show up with parasites due to being stressed or whatever reason, it is your responsibility to pay for at least THAT treatment.

So it is all done and said...you have at least 5500 in front of you cause you spent a couple hundred on vets and misc treats....you are still in the red, but you see another pair of gliders you just HAVE to have.....and the cycle starts again....

ok, hope this gives you a pic of what sometimes happens.....

ROFLMAO I do accounting ... send them my way. I can help them understand they are fixing to get rooked into the expense & the love of their life!

Funny I bet most don't keep track of all the vegis & fruits or even the fleece they buy. LOL I do and in a tax sense it is a joke........Thank God my hubby is always looking for a deduction. I have been kind enough to supply him with 9 almost 12. HUGE ones.

No I really don't see any money to be made here for the people who REALLY do right by their babies. It is just a given that you are going to spend every dollar that you get on them. Hey they are worth every dime.

are we still answering to the ??'s that eddie asked in his 1st & 2nd post? i think much of it has strayed.
i am thinking on the same lines as he is, as far as all the health issues i have been seeing here. NOT to mention what i went thru w/my first 2. how many of us newbies,
(since april of 08), still have the original ones, there have been too many that have passed. i know the #'s will be a give & take on that, but i knew nothing of the issues before getting a glider, i only knew the basics. who knows the lineage on them, no one knows this. maybe mine died because of the 'inbreeding' in gliders, even if they were just basic grey's. the heartache @ losing these 2 will ALWAYS be w/me. i was so much in love w/them, & not having them for very long, & to loose them, a big mental part of me (emotionally) will be lost 4ever. this could also be why many of them having giardia, too.
how many breeders are actually that honest when selling these 8th wonders of gods creation? whats to stop them from making up bogus lineage, to those as myself? i would never know, cause i would only want one male as a husband to my female, to have the other male, her bro., to be the uncle to the joeys--i would have my family & be done.
but that wasn't to be. i never got a lineage on them, the seller didn't know his gliders parents, & they very well could have been related.
for the most part, i do feel that most of the breeders that are members here aren't liers, but i have heard of one mating a rescue w/a full line mate to see what comes of it.
i am more concerned of the health issues than who is doing what, & probably the why(?)also.
& that's my statement on the matter.
josefine

Actually, I'm going for that SUPER BONANZA. I will only need one

Ok, but in that case at 5k you are more than likely only going to wind up with hets for babies...they cant get as much as the actually colored glider...so you just made less on your joeys.

Most of the lineages out there can be checked VERY easily on the boards. You would be surprised at the people that can just rattle off lineages off the top of their heads. They blow my mind. I KNOW TYLER is one of them. When searching for a mate for the girls he seemed to have personally known every glider I mentioned.

The lines are there, they are public knowledge and they can be easily accessed. If they are good clean lines they are proudly put out for the world to see, if you can't find the lines you are looking for you need to dig a little deeper. I bet you'll find what you want.