Question.... What about having the vet sedate the glider and do a blood draw then send it in to do a Culture & Sensitivity. If this is a blood borne illness...perhaps this will find the nasty bug causing all of his problems. However to do this...the glider needs to be off the anitbiotics for five to seven days or so.

Anyway, just a thought. You could run this by the vet and get his opinion.

Lynn,

It is very difficult from a distance to know what is happening. Luckily your veterinarian gets to examine and test Ozzie, and is in the best position to help. A couple of thoughts that may help understanding:

Jaundice is too much bilirubin in the blood. The liver clears bilirubin from the blood stream, and attaches a chemical to help excrete it. This combined (conjugated) product is a dark colored bile pigment, which travels down the bile ducts and is squirted into the bowel for clearance. That's why normal toidy is dark, and liver-sick toidy can be kind of pale or chalky. When something in this process has gone wrong, jaundice develops.

Having jaundice can come from increased production of bilirubin or bile pigment overload, or decreased clearance.

Increased production:
1. Hemolytic anemia (Breakdown of red blood cells). A blood count will show if he is anemic (has a low red cell count). Was the "blood in the urine" red cells under the microscope, or a positive dipstick? Knowing that would help.
2. Decreased microsomal conjugating of bilirubin. This means that the liver hooks another chemical to the bilirubin molecule to help get rid of it. If that isn't happening, the bili level can climb and cause jaundice. Normally elevated bilirubin is measured as conjugated or unconjugated. That can help solve the puzzle if they drew blood.

Decreased elimination:
1. Inherited errors of the above process, such as defective enzymes that don't work well. I don't remember reading how old he is, but the older he is, the less likely this becomes. Getting so yellow so fast would be expected in younger joeys.
2. Leaky liver cells letting the jaundice back into the blood instead of excreting it. Some meds can do such a thing. You didn't say what meds he was being given.
3. Obstruction of outflow of bile to the bowel. Cancer blocking the duct, a stone in the duct can block passage, or problems leading to narrowing or poor flow. These are the surgically treatable causes.

Once one of these causes gets going, it can inflame the whole liver, which can lead to some of the other causes and create mixed reasons for worsening jaundice. Then it gets harder to figure out the original cause.

Importantly, infection can inflame the liver and cause all kinds of trouble. An abscess could also cause obstruction to outflow or inflammation of the liver. Most abscesses cannot be effectively treated with antibiotics. Antibiotics might quiet down an infection, but usually they cannot completely remove an abscess and thus the problem can recur after stopping the med. It could also be that the particular antibiotic being used is not the best one for a specific infection, so the med might slow it down, but not completely fix him. Have you tried different ones?

Lastly, parasites and viruses can also cause liver inflammation, or hepatitis. Poisons can also do this. Heavy metal poisonings such as the lead you mentioned could be one of many such culprits. Bacterial toxins such as aflatoxin can inflame livers. Obviously, there is a very long list of possible causes.

In your case, the observation that blood was in the urine and that antibiotics seemed to help both the urine blood and the jaundice are very interesting clues. Inborn errors wouldn't get better with bug juice (antibiotics). Neither would heavy metal poisonings, viral and parasitic infections, outflow obstructions, aflatoxin issues or duct malformation. The other observation that his cage mate is not similarly showing signs seems to make poisonings and diet issues seem less likely.

I can't help thinking of infection given the story you have related. The surgical reasons are farther down the list, but not excluded. Some of them couldn't be helped after opening him up. That being said, if he has an abscess, his only hope of curing it is to open and drain it.

I don't know if this helps you with a difficult decision, but I hope so. Such dilemmas are never easy. Given some gliders' tendencies to self mutilate, surgery seems even more scary than normal. Good luck, and we're all here for help.

Poor baby. Poor you!

OMGoodness. I have never seen anything quite like that. Is Ozzy feeling better today? I sure hope something can be found with the surgery so you can get on the road to recovery with some medicine. Please keep us posted. Poor Poor Ozzy. My thoughts and prayers are with him.

Good Morning,
Well, we made it through the night. It may be wishful thinking, but Ozzy appears to be a tiny bit less yellow this morning. I got up every three hours last night and gave him gliderade diluted with pedialyte / some yogurt / his meds this morning, etc.

Peggy, someone at work also suggested ultraviolet light. I may go to town later today and pick up a grow light.

Lucy, You're right about Ozzy not looking sick -- behavior wise, I can tell -- he is Mr. Inquisitive and our social-butterfly. Today he's very crabby and is content to sleep and to be left alone. Last night when we were taking the pictures, he kept going back to the pouch, but still was watching everything, when healthy he would have been grabbing the camera and exploring it.

Judie, Ozzy is back on antibiotics (for 2 weeks) -- once we get through this crisis I think we'll probably go ahead and do the cultures. My vet wasn't willing to wait several more days before putting him on antibiotics due to the severity of the jaundice.

Schlep, the blood in his urine was red blood cells (microscopic exam). He is 15 mos OOP so elimination issues are probably not the problem.

Monday, I'll take another urine sample in. I'll scan the results to add to his medical records. His records are available for anyone who would like a copy -- email or PM me.

Currently he is on Clavamox (antibiotic)and Pet-Tinnic (for anemia). He also gets milk thistle extract twice daily. Right now he is also getting yogurt and/or gliderade (with Pedialyte added). His breeder suggested that I give him Kaopectate to help his diarrhea (dip tip of pinkie into it and let him lick it off -- one dose only). We were concerned about the diarrhea getting out of control, and Ozzy not being strong enough to handle it.

Thanks for everyone's concern. I'll keep you posted.

Lynn

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
is suffering from lead poisoning (although we have no idea how he would have gotten lead in his system).



<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Fluoride causes lead absorption. Fluoride can be found in city water and also in bottled water in even higher concentrations.


http://www.gardening.cornell.edu/factsheets/misc/cgandlead.html

http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.asp?PageType=article&ID=1816

Food. Lead is contained in many foods, especially in those grown near industrial areas or busy cities or roadways. Grains, legumes, commercial and garden fruit, and most meat products pick up some lead. Liver and lunch meats are usually higher. Liverwurst and other sausages may contain more lead than other foods. Roadside vegetation, such as herbs, fruits, and vegetables, has higher concentrations of lead than vegetation growing in more secluded areas. Measurements of lead in trees growing along roads show much more than was present in the 1930s. Bonemeal, a source of calcium and magnesium, is usually made from cattle bones and may contain high amounts of lead. Dolomite, an earth rock source of calcium and magnesium, is usually lower in lead. Pet foods may also be high.
Pesticides. Many pesticides and insecticides contain some lead, mainly as the lead-arsenate base.

http://www.converge.org.nz/pirm/eatrisk.htm

http://www.nrdc.org/health/pesticides/hcarson.asp
About Rachel Carson;Silent Spring

Have you looked into the possiblity of the milk thistle causing a toxicity? Maybe he is getting too much or has been getting it for too long.

I wish we had more, this little guys is a love and so patient to be going through all this. He remains in my prayers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

she and I did talk about the pesticides, however while looking over her past posts, I see that she had a concern with the ant hotels??? that she had placed out a couple of months ago..I am wondering if that couldn't have been an issue??? so many possiblities with liver problems..

Bug and I are keeping Ozzy in our thoughts......I'll also ask my vet if she has any clues......she handles oodles of exotics although she hasn't seen many gliders.....hopefully the answer is out there and someone will find it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Just wanted to say that Ozzy is in my prayers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> I've been following his story with lots of hope for the wee one, and for his slave <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Well, we made it one more day. Ozzy was so still at one point yesterday while I was holding him that I thought we were loosing him. I didn't check on him through he night because he seemed so tired, but this morning, he was eating and drinking on his own (and drank enough to stay hydrated) and even jumped from my lap to the cage this morning when he wanted to go back to bed. His brother Chip, is sticking real close to him and is grooming him. Wish I was independently wealthy and could stay home with him this week.

Lynn

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />
Lynn, prayers for you and Ozzy, as well as your son and Ozzy's brother!
Chey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Lynn many many <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />
From my <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s to yours!

Good Thoughts and Prayers are coming your way for both you and Ozzy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> [:"magenta"] keep us updated. will keep my fingers and toes crossed for ya! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />[/]

After talking with Lynn, there is another common denominator here and that is the use of Front line on our cats. My heart and prayers go out to you Lynn <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

I've recently talked with two people who've had gliders die with jaundice as the visible symptom. Both had necropsies done. And both said there was more damage to the kidneys than the liver and that other organs were involved. I know this question may not solve Ozzy's issues, but what if what we need to be doing is looking to support / repair the kidneys and identifying what could be damaging them? What if the liver issues are secondary to kidney issues? Are there other instances where this is documented? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Just a thought (or maybe a shower brainstorm)... feel free to move this to a new thread if it would be better explored there.

Lynn

Lynn, that is exactly what my theory is. Look for the underlying cause of the liver damage. It is my opinion that the primary problem lies in the urinary tract and/or kidneys. Maybe even bladder infection. Once this is corrected the glider should stabilize and the liver problem can be dealt with.

In dealing with mutilators I have noticed a similar scenario. Everyone seems to focus on the mutilation damage and to loose sight of what caused the glider to start mutilating. In Ozzy's case everyone seems to be focusing on the damaged liver and forgetting the blood that keeps appearing in the urine.
Charlie H

another bit of advise i know works as it was a big part in saving my miracle glider ruby from pnumonia she was practicly dead. no longer eating and drinking. another med. that saved her was laying hands on her daily and praying for her to be healed. i truly believe thats another reason shes still with me almost 2 yrs since her sickness. a good vet, alot of prayer, and alot of BML diet. i still pray for her today. since she still has scar tissue on her lungs that was damaged from being deathly sick. and i see that slowly getting better as months go by. its amazing. i just read an article by a dr. last night. they injected 10 mice with cancer cells they were suppose to die within 25 days. since it was a deadly form of cancer. now, they prayed for an hour each week for these 10 mice. they all got well. then there was another 10 injected with the same thing. they were not prayed for and they died. my advise is. if you pray for ozzy you might just get what your asking for. miracles do happen. ruby my glider is one of them. and yours can be too.

Ozzy has been going downhill all day. He has vomited twice this evening. Is there anything we can do, or is it a matter of staying close and keeping him warm and loved?

Lynn

Edited to add:

is there anyway u can get the antbiotic shot i told u about its worth a try. just make sure hes doesnt dehydrate if he does u have to sub q him. in the meantime give him lots of luv and prayer.

Lynn, this breaks my heart. I'd so been hoping the antibiotics would do the trick.

You could take him in to an emergency vet tonight, and they might or might not be able to do anything. If he's having trouble breathing, they could help, perhaps. But you may be looking at multiple organ failure. If that's the case, you have to decide how much you want to fight to possibly prolong his life a little. It's a hard and excruciating choice.

I hope that he turns the corner for the better as the night progresses. At worst, you can keep him comfortable tonight, and just love on him. Either way, I'm sure you have the support of everyone here.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Oh Lynn, I am soo sorry. Please as you are giving him his lovins to please put in an extra squeeze, rub, and kiss on his little head from me.
This just breaks my heart to hear he had to endure even more. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> to you all, I wish I could be there in person to give them.
Chey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" />

Reading the last thread, and then this one, I am wondering if one of the new meds might be causing his vomiting? I know some antibiotics can cause this in gliders who are sensitive, Baytril among them. We've had a couple that reacted this way to meds. Has he had the Clavamox before? Or the one for anemia (can't recall the name you gave)? It's also possible he could have developed a sensitivity if his liver/kidneys aren't filtering things out properly and there's a buildup. I know there are some sites that list veterinary antibiotics, their effects, eliminations from the body, tissue retention of the drug, etc. but I can't find my link. Just a thought as to why he may be throwing up all of a sudden. This little one has been through a lot. Our prayers are with him and you.

Well, Clavamox is well known for causing vomiting. The anemia med is a vitamin with iron to help build red blood cells. There hasn't been enough time to have vitamin levels build up and cause any toxicity, but stomach upset and vomiting is certainly within the realm of possibility for either med. More likely is that this is end-stage liver disease.

CharlieH questioned in the other thread about the kidney being the source of the problem. That is a good thought, but also seems unlikely. There just aren't many kidney issues that lead to jaundice. Even pyelonephritis (kidney infection) leading to overwhelming sepsis wouldn't present this way. And one would have a much sicker critter. However, liver issues could readily explain jaundice and blood in the urine. The liver makes the clotting factors that stop bleeding, and as liver illness progresses, bleeding ensues due to inability to clot normally. At the micro level, small amounts of blood can get in the urine if clotting is not working well. That degree of jaundice usually goes with hepatitis (liver infection), biliary tract obstruction, or most frequently a primary liver ailment.

This is so sad, and not likely to have a happy ending. I hope Ozzy doesn't suffer, and that Zack can get through this.

Something that may have been overlooked is the possibality of aflatoxin infection.

The patients experienced high fever, rapid progressive jaundice, edema of the limbs, pain, vomiting, and swollen livers.

Ozzy could have a low level of contamination from aflatoxins as he seems to be exibiting most of the above symptoms. At low levels of intake an animal does not necessarily die right away and some recover.
Charlie H

I don't have any experience in this but I want you to know I'm praying for you and Ozzy. I just want to add that you are doing a wonderful job and it's so nice to see how much you care for him. Too often I hear of owners having a sick glider and every reason to not see a vet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> to you for all your doing. I pray that God will comfort you and your son and heal your precious Ozzy. He's a very blessed little guy to have you.

A quick update then more details tonite. Ozzy made it through the night. Began eating and drinking at about midnight. Ate a few cherry pieces, chowed down on dried figs (go figure) and drank water or mango nectar. Was getting up on his own this morning. Must go earn some money. Details on vet visit tonite.

Lynn

Thank you for the quick update Lynn, much appreciated since we all are in this with you so to speak <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />. sounds like Ozzy had a good night <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />, which is a positive! You are doing a wonderful job with him <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />.

Karin