Judie,

Thank you for your input. I definitely take your experience to make sense as to why the galvanized metal could cause UTI's.

In fact, it's not the galvanization that does it, it's the bacteria build up. Older galvanized wire DOES start to pit and take on a beat up appearance. I can easily see how bacteria could build up very easily on the surface of the older wire.

I would also have to argue that the same is true for cheaper (non powder coated) bird cages that get older and rust... the rust itself presents a problem, but I'm sure that metal could harbor UTI causing bacteria as well.

I like to think that my relatively short term experience with galvanized cages resulted in to UTI's because my wire was not yet old enough to break down and harbor bacteria.

I think we might be getting to the bottom of this.

We know that UTI's are caused by bacteria, question is does the galvanized wire harbor the bacteria more versus pvc or powder coated wire.

Older galvanized wire will pit, it takes a long time to do so though, but even with pitting a bleach solution will reach the interior of the pits and kill any bacteria. Metal is not porous, therefore bacteria cannot seep into the pits.

Thank you for your input Judie, your time in the glider community is valuable when looking back at how things were when gliders were very new here.

The first cages you said were galvanzied and male gliders were having issues with UTIs. May I ask what size these cages were? What were the size requirements back then?

Also, what contents were inside the cage? Did they have the things that are in most cages today?

Reason I ask is, with the powder and pvc coated cages, most of them are at least 3ft. tall thus giving the glider more area to mark in. Also, with all the toys, hammocks, shelves, and wheels that are in cages now, those are things that gliders have to mark also.

With a broader area to mark instead of a concentrated area, along with many items to personalize :), the knowledge of a clean environment is benefical to good health, could these be the reasons of declining UTIs?

Wow! So much information going on here!
Let me start off by saying that I own a powder coating company and the sister company we split off from after 15 years does Zinc and Nickle plating (electrolytic not hot dip). This is just to let you know where I'm coming from in the conclusions I have come to reading this thread.

#1- If you are against galvanized products due to the zinc poisioning from ingestion I understand. Hot dip galvanize is applied about .020 of an inch thick (about 6 hairs or 7 sheets of copy paper thick). This is VERY thick in regards to metal plating and is sloppy and messy hence the "drips" that can be caused. Yes, bad to eat! Electrolytic zinc plating goes on .0002 of an inch think (200x LESS thick than hot dip). This usually also has a chromate coating over it which technically means that no zinc is actually exposed. Still, it is metal and bad to eat!
NOW...powder coating. MOST powder(unlike wet paint)is full of inert compounds that remain that way once they are baked. On the other hand the powders that look like metal look that way because they ARE made of metal particles. The cages that come in the silver vein or copper vein or any other color that looks metalic have metal flakes in the powder. Granted the metal concentration in the powder is much less than say the hot dip but still....there it is.
Please, please understand I'm not trying to make people flip out and toss metal color powder cages now. I am just trying to inject a little perspective into this topic. I feel that if my babies are not massive chronic destructive chewers I have little to worry about in most cage choices although to be honest the hot dip would NOT be my first choice( I think it looks garbage-y too!). Saying that, I also think if you feel better not using these products because you have other alternatives and you feel better to be safe than sorry then, Great, go for it.

#2- Galvanized causes UTI's.
This is where I think the information is sketchy at best.
If we are worried about the cage rusting and causing UTI's why are we also not worried about Tetnus??? Tetnus IS a horribly painful way to die and is caused by the same "sort" of bacteria that causes UTI's yet noone is having an issue or ever had an issue with tetnus from a galvanized cage??
Both UTI's and tetnus are caused by bacteria and NOT zinc or rust. A rough rusty metal only creates a prime surface for anerobic bacteria to grow on and a UTI is not a cause of the rust or metal itself. Example: How many of you girls out there have had a UTI yourself? I have and I'm pretty sure it was NOT caused by my rubbing myself on anything rusty or galvanized!
All items can get old and break down. Even a powder coated cage can break down over time with enough vigerous cleaning,especially the chinese stuff! (and no offence but in doing powder coating there IS a HUGE difference in the mass produced chinese stuff and the stuff I do!!)Poorly powder coated items can chip, flake and then rust and then you are in the same boat as the galvanized.
Old and dirty is old and dirty! No matter what kind of material you are working with.
We are always telling people to inspect pouches and toys for defects all the time, why does this not apply to cages as well?? If your cage is old and rusty it's probably unsafe for a million more reasons than just because your glider MIGHT get a UTI. If your cage is yucky, fix it, Toss it out, get a new one, strip it and get it re-powder coated! Let's not use galvanized metal as the scapegoat for refusing to fix unsanitary cage conditions.

At any rate, this is just my 2 cents worth on the whole thing. I have stayed away from galvanized metal JUST because someone said to. I never really reaserched the why(?) behind it for myself. I suppose from now on I will listen openly to the things I hear and then look into it for myself and come to my own conclusions.
I mean after all it wasn't that long ago that you were allowed to SMOKE in hospitals. So by that reasoning because doctors did it it must be safe and healthy right???
Same difference.

Wow, great input! It's nice to see someone with knowledge about metals put in their opinion.

You're right... ANY old cage (even PVC coated) will break down and eventually rust. I myself have seen a pvc coated cage that rusted where the corners met and rubbed the PVC coating off... Also, it isn't good for gliders to ingest ANY cage material...

I suppose I'm more likely to use coated wire, pvc, vinyl, powder, or otherwise, because it looks sharper and is relatively easy to clean.

Let me say again that in my time using galvanized wire, I didn't have a single UTI... maybe I am a good cage cleaner?

At any rate, this discussion really peaks my interest because of the fact that possibly incorrect information could be influencing people's cage decisions. I would say that a new galvanized cage is more safe than an old, cheap, flaking powder coated one... even PVC cages have their problems... I have 2 K&D cages (Which I LOVE) and I can't help but notice that the PVC is wearing off where the doors latch...

Should we all run out and build galvanizes cages? No, but I also believe that we may have jumped the gun a bit too soon.

CalamityAnnie, well stated! Your point about being open to the things you read here or other places is right on the mark. There are sometimes far too many statements of "You must do this" or "Don't do this" without anything to back them up. Actually, there may be evuidence to back some statements/ideas but it's never presented. Good or bad, they tend to perpetuate themselves.

Thank you, CalamityAnnie, for your post. This is exactly why this forum was created, to get to the root of where these long term ideas came from, if there is any truth to them and see the research and knowledge base on all sides so we can all make more informed decisions.

And you are absolutely correct, although it is not discussed nearly as much as pouch safety, if your cage (regardless of the kind) is old, worn, and unsafe (even repts can get a 'fuzziness' to the mesh that can easily catch up toes and nails) it needs to be replaced. This is true for everything your glider comes in contact with, toys, food dishes, water bottles - everything eventually needs to be replaced.

I recently had to build more cages to replace older ones, and once again I was stuck having to hunt for pvc coated mesh... galvanized is so readily available, and pvc coated is pretty rare to find in a store.

However, I will testament that PVC coated cages last much longer than galvanized ones. They really only start to deteriorate where the wire rubs together and exposes the wire underneath the pvc... my K&D Exotics cage is beginning to do this, and I have to monitor that exposed wire for rusting or pitting.

Here is my K&D cage:


Here is a close up of one of the doors and where the metal is exposed:





Now I love my K&D cages, I think they are some of the sturdiest, well-built PVC coated cages you can find, however, like Sugarlope reiterated, ALL cages will eventually wear down and need maintenance or even replacement.

Perhaps this is why galvanized cages got a bad rap... people were using them for too long, and did not replace them once they began to deteriorate... My huge galvanized outdoor cage (now a plant house) started to pit after only 1 year. Now it was exposed to the elements, but I can see how glider urine could cause rapid deterioration as well.

hmmm very interesting im more worried about the galvanized hardware cloth harming their feet it does feel kind of rough

I always wondered if the galvanized metal somehow "attracted" or "isolated" bacteria more than other types, so maybe that's why people think they can "cause" UTI's? No idea, but it wasn't worth it to test it out, for me, we just stick to the cages we are recommended to.

I've worked in the metal trades for years and this is my experience. Galvanized parts are normally steel parts that have been coated with a layer of zinc. It is done because zinc is a oxide inhibitor for the steel, thus it's not supposed to rust. Someone stated that if you do any hot work with it the fumes are toxic, that is correct also. Lots of plumbing in homes is done with galvanized pipe but this isn't a health hazard. The only way for zinc to become a hazard is to inhale the fumes or ingest it and be unable to pass it. Lots of parts are coated with zinc because it's a cheap way to prevent rusting. Will it cause a UTI? I do believe that since it normally has a rougher finish when compare with PVC coating, bakelite finishes or powder coating that it lends itself to harboring bacteria, more so than other types of cage material. Since the males do mark their territory they probably tend to have more problems than females when using this type of material. That's just my personal opinion from working with metal. One other thing I'd like to bring to everyones attention while we're on this topic of cage material. If by chance you make a cage from aluminum and it has steel parts incorporated, such as latches, hinges, etc., you'll notice after a while that you get a white powder where the two metals meet. This is a form of galvanic corrosion and should also be avoided.