Peggy why are you looking for my permission to contact Karen again? LOL

The Glider Initiative (TGI) is conducting a research project beginning with a blind study of Ca:P ratios in Sugar Gliders. This is the first step of many that will be taking place over the next year. These preliminary blind study results, though not a necessity, will greatly assist TGI in obtaining a research grant. If the grant is approved, it will pay for all or a portion of the further research that is needed.

Upon completion of this first step, veterinarians, Nutritionists, a Laboratory and their respective staff will be brought on board for a full study. The procedures of this study will be dictated by these individuals, not by TGI. After the details of the study have been written, TGI will then seek volunteers to participate.

What is the final study?

The basics of the study will be to determine the nutritional needs of a captive Sugar glider for optimal health. This would be comparable to the “Recommended Daily Allowance” (RDA) for humans.

How do we determine what the RDA is for a glider?

We don’t know; that is what the Research Staff will tell us. That is what the research will be.

We need to know if the diets we feed are sufficient for our gliders. We need to know what their nutritional needs are, and find out if these diets are supplying these needs.

The findings of this research project will be paramount to the health of captive Sugar Gliders around the world. Knowing and providing the proper nutrition can rule out diet as the object of many questions when health issues or death occurs. Properly feeding our gliders may significantly reduce some of these health issues as well.

Shelly Sterk
Director of Education, TGI

Karen Milas
President, TGI

Kris Nelson
Baby Love Gliders

I will ask the same questions of you:
Will you be using the standard USDA info to calculate Ca:P intake or will you be researching to figure out EXACTLY what ratio is truly being taken in? ( am only asking about the simple going in ratio here, I am not dismissing the concern of others here about the actual absorption, & other vast amount of variables that will affect that,etc.)

What results do you seek from THIS blind study?

You state they are not necessary so is it worth the expense & risk to owners & gliders? Not asking if the owners are willing to take it. But does TGI think that this risk is warranted at this point?

Kris, you make a good point. You do not have the answers to the How and What issues of this study. You need someone who can answer those questions to come on board and give us more information.

Putting yourself in the position of a middle-man sets you up for a lot of headaches that should not be yours to deal with.

If folks had more information on this study it might make sense to more people.

In any event - Random submissions of blood work makes no sense and who ever told you it is a requirement for the grant needs to answer some questions in person.

I think I finally understand this...Toni...THANK YOU!!!

Kris, I asked your permission because you are the *ringleader* silly girl!!

Shelly, thank you for coming to post this.

Toni, I think that was the most two people could speak in such a short time in history with each understanding what the other is saying, yet each being confused as well and coming to a GOTCHA moment there at the end!!

Kris, Im sure you are feeling overwhelmed and in a corner so to speak with all the different questions and *nitpicking*, been there, done that...just know in the end IF it all works out the way that is planned in your head right now, it will all be worth it.

I would also like to take this time to tell folks, no matter WHO you are, just because people question you when you bring something forward, does not mean they dont believe in what you are doing, or they do not support the idea of what you have laid in front of them, some just like to have more answers and see more of the *end result* way before its time. Dont take it offensively, or think you are being challenged, as most of the time that is not what it is all about at all.

I look forward to seeing what comes out of this and if the grant is given, I look forward to offering as much as I can to help out.

As I stated, it is not a requirement for the grant. It will only ASSIST in obtaining the grant. Showing some preliminary research will help us get the right labs, vets, and nutritionists on board with what we need. It will help us get the backing we need to conduct the actual research.


In response to the question regarding using USDA info to calculate Ca:P intake...
The data used in this study will be determined by the professionals that conduct the study. I can not at this time tell you what reference material will be used. All we can say at this point is that all of these concerns will be discussed with them during the development of the project.

Has anyone ever had a house built for them or considered having a house built? You don't just dig a hole in the ground, pour the foundation and then build the house.

MY understanding of this is the DATA being asked for to go in with the grant proposal is a PRELIMINARY blue print for the house. There will be changes made as necessary in the early stages, details to work out before the actual blue print is made. Then once the blue print is there, then they go to the "bank" (grant proposal) to ask for the money to build the house. Then the contractors (vets) and building suppliers (labs, techs, etc) will be put into place. ONLY then can the actual ground breaking take place. The actual study get started.

But just walking into a bank and saying "I want $500,000 to build a house" isn't going to get the money to do it. The bank is going to want some more details (which are still being worked out) before they just hand over the money.

This isn't going to happen over night. It will take time. It will take patience on everyone's part.

Jen... I am not seeking anything other than the blood results..What I would LOVE for you to do.. is help me. Lets do the figuring of food together.. I will make a chart once I receive the food items feed on what I think they are.. I'll send you the food items and you make another chart on what YOU think they are.. and we'll compare notes.. talk and figure it out together... How's that sound?

Risk? I'm not sure what risks you think there are? Expense.. everyone that has contacted me and is excited to join and share are fully aware of the cost.. and actually it's not very much to have a simple ca:ph serum drawn, most if not all have yet to have blood work done ever on their gliders. They also know that some vets will sedate. I am getting permission from both my vet and another persons vet that also does not use sedation for blood drawls to speak with other vets on how they do it, if the participant is worried about sedation. Risk to the owner... not sure where you are coming form here.. can you explain?

Does that mean I can have a top hat.. and a whip? I have a vendor I need to beat!

T.. you said that PERFECTLY!!! Thank you so much!

The top hat, Yes...the whip, absolutely not!! I keep ALL the beating tools!!

Your right.. I left that whip somewhere else.. it just didnt work for me.. didnt match my outfit! sorry could not resist.... and dont even ask like you are not laughing Peggy!

Yep, that's the idea of it!

Teresa I understand what you are saying about the process in building a house and what is needed before you are given funding.

However, my experience in working with grants for the last 10 years, what is acceptable in securing a grant and what isn't is what is leading me to have questions.

For instance, The Housing Partnership (the agency I worked at) did what was called a windshield survey in the county of substandard housing. We had volunteers go around to every home in the county and look through their windshield (hence the name) and document what they saw. They were not qualified housing inspectors but it didn't take one either to note "big hole in roof," "house sitting on the ground," etc.

All information was compiled after every home was surveyed in the county and it gave us a general idea of the percentage of homes in major disrepair. This was for our information only to see what in the future we could possibly be looking at as condemned homes.

Could or did we use this windshield survey as documentation submitted in a grant proposal? NO, and reason why is what one person thinks is substandard could differ from what another did.

Just like this blood work we are talking about doing, everyone may feed HPW or BML, Pricilla's BUT everyone doesn't feed the exact same thing with each. I have no doubt that blood work is going to differ because of treats, honey used, fruits and veggies fed, age of gliders, breeding or non breeding..etc.

If people want to do this so they can see the differences in the blood work, well that is fine but I cannot see it of being any use in securing a grant as it will just be a bunch of blood tests that prove what?

Like you said, Peggy, we worked it out together, so THANK YOU too!

I agree with Kris, excellent analogy, T!

Now Kris and Peggy ya'll stop this right now and give me back my toys!

Just my opinion here but instead of spending money on blood work at this point in your efforts, have people donate thoses monies towards hiring a professional grants researcher and writer.

Like how Teresa explained building a house, you can't walk into a bank with an idea of what kind of house you would like to build and expect to get a loan, you hire an engineer to draw the blueprints first. Once the loan is obtained, then you get the materials needed for constuction.

I'm sorry, but I should have mentioned in my original post that TGI is talking to a professional grant writer that will likely be writing the grant.

My hubby is a carpenter, son is a carpenter, we used to have our own business building houses (until I got fed up with the IRS on their stupid paperwork garbage). Joe is actually the one that called it a preliminary blue print.

I also want to add on here...that if any of those having blood draws done for this, IF they have full blood panels done, they could also forward the results to Dr. T if they chose to. Perhaps he could make use of the results too in his "study".

It's not like this is the first request for blood work results to be shared.

I'm trying my best to still answer everyones questions and this one has me truly perplexed.. What is eveyones concerns with having gliders blood drawn?

I think drawing blood from gliders is serious, and I understand why people have concerns. A lot of the concerns come from a lack of planning on the part of the organizers of this. It’s almost like someone comes up with a concern and the organizers are scrambling to put things in place. I think there should have been a clear game plan before this went public and then when someone asked a question there wouldn’t be all the scrambling and frustration. Questions should be answered with patience and confidence.

I don’t think people mind having the draws done. They just want assurance the draws aren’t being done for nothing. I see a lot of inexperience coming into play by the organizers here. Maybe the organizers should back off and get their ducks in a row before we start sucking blood out of glider veins. Just a suggestion.

I agree and have apologized for that.. Cant go back and change it now... just trying to move forward.




we are inexperienced that is why we are seeking professional help. That is why we have 2 vets, hopefully 3, that will be looking at and comparing results for us.. again this is not taking place in my secret lab in the basement, only Alicia has one of those..
I can assure everyone.. having your gliders blood drawn is NEVER for nothing.. but again.. if you dont feel comfortable having it done.. please dont.. this is voluntary. Most people involved saw Peggy's and Nicole's bloodwork and want to check their babies too..

Ok guys, here's the deal with how this all transpired. Plain and simple.

Kris came up with this concept. She has a good plan in mind and began posting about it. People started volunteering to get their gliders blood drawn, both for their own purposes (as has been suggested in the past by other members), and to forward the results to Kris.

Kris then began talking to Karen Milas. Karen suggested that we take this a step further with a bonafide research project. And that is where we are.

We are not "unorganized". This has all taken place over a short time frame and nothing will happen with this project for quite a while. It will take time to get the paperwork completed and a research team together. No one has to go out and do anything if they do not want to. That has been stated so many times in this thread.

There are very few on these boards that are "experienced" in animal research. Yes, there are some, and there are some in the vet field and medical field. Please don't assume that inexperience in these fields create the inability for TGI to work with a grant professional and seek out these professionals to conduct this research study. TGI is here to educate. It has become so very apparent lately the lack of knowledge that is out there for Sugar Gliders. We are trying to provide the means to obtain that knowledge. We are not rushing nor scrambling around to get this done. Proper steps need to be taken, and the entire community needs to show patience as we go through each task that is required to take on a project of this caliber. We fully understand that this is a big deal. And we plan on doing it right.

Please don't expect to see the results posted next week guys! It doesn't happen that way.

I was told that we needed to have the blood work done asap then track feeding for 1 month and it needed to be finished by the end of October. So has that changed too? I need to know because I might have a conflict.

I thought it has been stated that the "team" is already in place but Kris did not feel comfortable in naming the vets that were participating without their permission.

I would rather have seen your entire plan spelled out and the team members named before anyone started asking for random blood samples.

We have contacted a couple of vets to discuss this. Nothing is confirmed as of yet. It is in the discussion stage only right now. It does no good to throw out names when we do not know for sure if they are going to be able to help us during this project. One of the vets that have been contacted will not be in until sometime this week.

It would have been nice to spell out the entire plan first, but the full research project came about as a result of Kris' requests. Sometimes that is how these things transpire. I just ask for the communities patience in this process.

Now I'm speachless...All I can say is...WOW!

sorry, I posted in the wrong place

I think people are getting confused here... so lets back up a second..

For the initial tests.. we DO have 2 vets maybe 3, we are getting the lab parameters going today,12 community members and their gliders in place!

Which I would like to have at least the first round of blood draws by the middle of Oct.
So Anita, NO nothing has changed.


The BIG study with the grant.. NO we have NOTHING in place yet.. that is being worked on and will take much time to do.



Candy, I am not sure how many more times I can apologize for this. The bomb was dropped in this thread, we opened it for discussion.. and again I am sorry.. it was NOT my plan but like I have said 21631698797 times already.. I can not go back and correct it.. only trying to go forward.

Kris, you could always claim to drop the whole thing, move it into secret shadows and continue there. Don't think that would solve anything but it's an option.

Kris - thank you for clarifying my post. I was referring to the big research project when I said the research staff was not in place yet! Sorry for the confusion there everyone!