That's one of the reasons why I do the fecal smear/float first. If that's negative, then I have the snap test done as well.



*faints*

That's cheaper then getting fecals done! Wowzers!

EzzieM, no, no news yet.

On a side note: last night one of my gliders, Precious, has a mating wound chewed open by either her cagemate or joey. she got the wound about a week or so ago and it wasn't bad and was healing really well and had scabbed over. I though she was already out of the worry-zone and then last night it was way bigger and deeper. I talked to Suz this morning about Precious' 3 week old joey and she said to pull her(but allow visitations each day between the joey and both the parents). So, now we've got another joey to hand-raise and a new vet bill. *sigh*

This year SUCKS!

Dang girl!!!.....Whatcha do to Ms Karma to set her out after ya like that????

Hmmmm I wonder .....Mating wound back of neck correct?...So she cant get to it???...Are you seperating her from everyone else to allow it to heal?...If so, anyone out there ever use scarlet oil on a glider???...I've never had that problem on a glider but I have had emmense success at closing those type of wounds in other "critters" that were to late for suturing or it was ill advised to suture...Not something you would want them to be able to lick (nor any of the other around her) but, it might be worth mentioning to your vet to see what she says about it.....

Scarlet Oil will absolutely live up to its name...Every thing it touches will be oily and stained a bright scarlet red!! (the oil part of it helps to keep the wound from drying out and scabbing over to quickly and the rest promotes quick tissue growth and inhibits the germies) LOL

Yes, scarlet oil is an option....it is FANTASTIC for healing wounds like this mating wound sounds to be...BUT it comes with its own share of precautions that have to be taken (in addition to the stain factor): The base ingredient is MINERAL OIL which is WAAAAY bad news for a glider (not sure about other animals). If you have some way to put a dressing over the wound, then by all means go for it, Nicole. But please be VERY VERY VERY careful with it.

The risk factor of it versus emu oil is why I don't mention it often...did a little research online & found a website called (oddly enough) www.emustore.com They had a bottle (200 ml I think it was) for $18.95. Don't know if tax is extra or what you'd be looking at for shipping cost, etc., but you could also do a little "cost comparison" by simply searching for "emu oil"...there are LOTS of stores that carry it. You'll want "pure emu oil".

Chris, I have been in contact with nicole, I agree but not limited to the giardia, and bacteria, also am very concerned it also may be aflatoxin.

as for the neck wound, I also use the scarlet oil but only after a bacterial c&s is run on the wound. different bacterias/ different meds.

she needs to have a culture done as soon as possible then an antibiotic, I also advised her that she needs at this point not to be placed back in with the male, this wound has almost healed before last night. but the issue is, she did have a 2 week old joey as well as a cage mate she would be separated from, making her stress levels higher, and possibly lowering her immune system as well. She was afraid to place the joey with dad, due to his stress levels of being removed from the female, she was afraid he would hurt the joey.If this wound hasn't been treated properly there is a very very strong possibility that it will continue to reoccur.


as for her other gliders... well I have my thoughts on those and have discussed them with her.

as for the bleach... nope sorry does not kill giardia.. I also told her that last night.

no one can guarantee against giardia..some of the things most people don't think about..

I ask, what water do you offer to your gliders
most responses = spring water
my next question... what water do you use to wash your food dishes, water bottles, pouches, cages, toys,fruits, veggies, their hands in????
most responses.. = tap water

touche' giardia can pass through water treatment plants,

she already has a problem with giardia with some gliders and her cats..

here is another thought, it may not be giardia, it may be trichamonas.. very similar on the slides to giardia. oh yeah, now we have a totally different booger to mess with very very hard to get rid of. and no bleaching everything doesn't kill it.

I could continue on with this. but.. this is plenty enough info to make everyone sit back and think about the risks that are very very common to everyone.

my prayers go out to you nicole, as I said, I think that finding the problem is top priority and getting it properly treated is of the utmost, it is difficult to have something attack many gliders with symptoms that make it look like they could all be different, when in reality, all of the symptoms, could all be inter related at various stages.

also everything above would alter the way the body process it's various nutrients, and yes, making it look like something it is, but isn't.

not uncommon for bacterial illnesses to cause the symptom of hlp, although it is hlp caused by calcium deficiency, it doesn't mean the foods don't have enough, it may just mean the body is not processing it properly, therefore cause the deficiency.

same thing with dehydration, just cause a glider is dehydrated doesn't mean it isn't getting enough water, it means the body is not processing it properly

I wish I knew what I did wrong! We moved to OH and bought a home so that the gliders could have their own rooms, we're upgrading all their cages to 6' high ones, and I'm doing my best to spoil my babies as much as possible, but everything seems to keep coming back and biting me in the bum!

No, Precious can't get to the wound and she's now completely separated from everyone(she was in with her mate and joey).

I have no idea what scarlet oil is, but I'll look into it and talk to my vet about it. Thanks!

Thanks Bourbon. I've been chewing over what all we talked about(before my phone decided to be [slow]. Grr!) and am probably going to talk my poor vet's head off tomorrow, lol.

nicole in the meantime go to the top of the health and hygeine forum, and go to the health and hygeine 101 read everything there regarding the parasites, paying close attention to the giardia and trichamonas threads, then when you are done . only 27 in the whole group, then read everything regarding aflatoxins and bacterias.

you will see what other have done to rid their gliders of everything..

good luck to you, and oh yeah you will be quizzed on this later.. LOL

I will talk to you about the scarlett oil but please talk to your vet.. very important..

You're killin me Bourbon!

well if that is not enough to keep you busy, I do have lots and lots of links that may help.. LOL

Nicole JUST SAY NO to the links... DO NOT FEED THE BOURBON!!!

My head is killing me... Oh and Nicole.. we need to plan a trip to Clarkesville..................packin guns... umm I mean gliders!!

What/who is in Clarksville and why do we need to go there? lol

whoa ladies, you asked I answered in fact let me quote you BLG





and of course reading the archives taught you nothing right?

lol

Ooooo....you've been outed Kris!

Hey if you are going to Clarksville you might as well swing thru and pick me up too! Yes yes feed Bourbon the woman's probably forgotten more than I've even learned yet she just needs willing listeners!

Nicole it does sound like you are getting closer and closer to figuring out what is going on with all your babies, which is a really good thing!

B lives in Clarksville Nicole!!

Yes yes yes I did say and mean those things.. darn you Bourbon! What else do I have in my PM box today??

Bourbon,

Nicole has a diagnosis by a vet (poss more than one if both the first that had her on Panacur and then by her normal vet when the panacur didnt do the "trick") that its Giardia. That is why I said to go with that and deal with one issue at a time as I truely believe that her glider health issues are related......

Its been awhile since I have had to deal with trich but..(going off memory here and havent been in school in 20 years so dont be quoting me LOL)..although the two could be confused in cyst form by the untrained eye(both are protozoa) IF I am remembering correctly, trich has low sensitivity to "outside environment conditions" it basically has to be grown and then antigen tested for absolute diagnosis...also under a microscope it is actually quite larger than Giardia (about 1/3 larger if memory serves me) The size of Trich cysts is around the size of a white blood cell, while Giardia is 2/3 of the size of a white blood cell. I dont think I have ever done a fecal that didnt have a white blood cell close by in the microscopic field to compare size to and that is how I was taught to know if I needed to grow a sample for antigen testing for Trich.....

Also...all this talk about Giardia got my interest peaked so I contacted a old colleage of mine that would be up on all the "latest" about the subject...

What I got out of the conversation was....Giardia is thought to be building up a resistance to Metronidizole and the vets in areas of "outbreaks" are finding that a "double wammy" approach of both Metronidizole and Fenbendazole are needed to clear it up.....

On the scarlet oil...I have never used scarlet oil on a glider and it does have its risks, that is why I told Nicole to mention it to her vet to get her opinion on it.......

Aflatoxin...I dont know much about honestly but I was under the impression that gliders have no tolerance and succumb quite quickly????

This is a bit off-topic...

I was reading some of the old articles in the archive and one of them gave a link to info about Metro and in the link it said that it can be harmful to the baby if a female is pregnant.

However, my vet had told me(and I think Bourbon said so as well) that it wouldn't hurt the IP joeys.

Precious had been treated with the Metro while she had her joeys IP...Is if possible that the treatment harmed the joeys and that's why she pulled 2 of them(she had 3 joeys IP at 2 different stages)?

Ummm I dont think so???? I would have to look up the properties but IF that was so I dont think I would have been prescribed Metronidizole to treat an urinary tract infection when I was 5 1/2 months preggos with my son LOL

Nicole we have used metro for many years on the moms carrying as well as when joeys are nursing,

Chris, we have used the scarlet oil on quite a few gliders, (AS LONG AS THEY HAVE AN ECOLLAR ON)

it is very toxic and there is a group of us that have seen the wonders it makes and the healing happen before our eyes, actually the first time we used it, was directly under a vets supervision and suggestion..

for that TerieK will always have our gratitude,

we have used it for gaping wounds, in neck wounds as well as wounds in the extremities. it is suggested with very high attention paid to the risks.

as for the differences under the scope, it is true, that although similar they do have their differences, but just as the bee pollen and the strongyles it is still similar and have had mis-diagnosis before from vets.

as for the resistance that is correct, and what we are finding is that multiple doses on and off, does seem to work. some vets stay with the metro, and few I have heard of have used the fenben.

I agree, the panacure is a dewormer an works for some parasites, it is ineffective against giardia and trich

as for aflatoxin, this is where people really do need to educate themselves, simply because if a small dose of the mold is eaten, and never again reintroduced, it does NOT, just attack and take them down quickly, if they have been exposed, their certificate is signed, it may take a week, it may take a year, it may take 5 years, depending on the amount ingested and the rate of growth of the spores.

many times the long timers are looked at tested for everything and nothing is found UNTIL the necropsy.. so we call them compromised if they are in a home where a death or more was contributed to aflatoxin.

something we just found out, is that aflatoxin can be passed to it's offspring through the dna, this is found in humans as well as animals. this in itself, puts us all at risk when we have no knowledge of the histories, and even if we do, there is still the risks that this is passed down,

we are finding that symptoms of compromised DNA points to things like early death with liver disease, smaller births, as well as many other symptoms, the labs don't automatically check for aflatoxin, it has to be requested, which opens far too many doors for interpetation, without necropsies being done, and tests being requested, we have no clue if this could be related to aflatoxins.

I know that nicole did ask her vet if he/she could test for it. and was told no... so we can not close the door to possibilities that this still may be an issue.

The lower the immune system, the higher the risk of the unknown. no door of possibility should be closed at this time, there is far too much going on.

the aflatoxin thing we are currently finding, about it being passed through the DNA offers a who new area that we haven't even thought about or considered..

here is a scenerio.. hmmm a breeder buys a joey, the joey turns into an adult, takes on a small piece of the fungus, (something that would take years to show through), with that smal amt attaching to the dna, .. now, that glider has 5 6 offsping, dies of liver disease, after all it turns yellow blood tests show liver issues.. it is assumed the glider died from liver failure.. those offspring continue to have more..

after all we don't do dna testing, even if we did what is normal???

my questions.. what effects would the dna'd aflatoxin have on the offspring, or even further ones?

we don't know, there was a huge post regarding genetics and early deaths due to liver issues, we have gliders that are dying and we can't find out what is wrong.. we don't know yet.. the necropsy effort is by far a a start,, but how can we find out the underlying dna issues..??

someone brought up about heat regulation in another thread, thermal regulators and ambient temperatures, this is another area, where we are finding things we don't want to find,

there are many different areas we haven't even touched in the research areas.. too often we think of what we already know, time is now to start thinking outside of the box.

Bourbon, where are you currently finding these findings at? Who are you working with? Any vets on board yet? I would like to see some of the stuff you are finding and take it over to Tim next week and see what he says about it. sounds interesting.

You should start a new thread about this subject so we can all chime in about it without taking away from Nicoles thread.

How true! That alone could/should be it's own thread.




Couldnt agree more!!

Ummm not caught up yet BUT fenbendazole and panacur are the same thing...fendbendazole being the drug name and pancur being the brand name

oops my spelling is terrible!!!! fenbendazole and panacur being one and the same

I am jumping in here on the aflatoxin issue. Has anyone ever actually had a confirmed diagnosis of Aflatoxin found in a necropsy? I have seen reports where Aflatoxins were assumed because of liver condition and other organ involvement. And I do know that people have had food tested for Aflatoxins once gliders get sick and/or die of symptoms attributed to Aflatoxin, so I do agree that those cases are more certain. But even in cases when Aflatoxin exposure is confirmed (through food/bedding sources) has Aflatoxin been found during histopathology?


There are many of us that would really like to know where this information is coming from, where are the new sources of this information, or the old ones?

The reality is that although Aflatoxin does attach itself to DNA and it can/does disrupt and/or damage DNA, it has no DNA of it's own (it is a toxin, not a living organism, which is why you can't 'kill' it). Therefore it CANNOT be passed on to future generations. IF a glider ingests Aflatoxin while she is is pregnant/nursing, then yes, the Aflatoxin can be passed on to her joeys as a secondary exposure through her milk. But it will not be born into a gliders DNA.

I agree that the compromised DNA can very much cause the symptoms that were discussed above in the animal that was directly exposed.

If there is a known test for testing for Aflatoxin in necropsy, I would really like to know what it is as my vet is unaware of it (doesn't mean it doesn't exist, she just doesn't know of it) and I definitely think that it should become a routine test in sugar glider necropsy.

I talked to my vet about the scarlet oil for Cadbury and she does not recommend it. As a matter of fact, the day before Haley passed TerieK's vet recommended Trypzyme-V which is the same thing that my vet perscribed for Cadbury. The Trypzyme-V is an aid in treatment of external wounds and assists healing by facilitating the removal of necrotic tissue, exudate and organic debris.

I know with the Scarlet oil it can't be used on Deep wounds. Do not apply to large areas of broken skin. In case of deep or puncture wounds or serious burns, consult a veterinarian.

Im pretty sure you can sample the liver and get aflatoxin levels...but its pricey and only a handful of places can do it...

I'm sorry you're having health problems with your babies. I have been reading through the thread and it's a lot of info for a new suggie mom to take in, so I don't have any advice just wanted to know that ya'll are in my prayers.

I am going to take the Aflatoxin discussion to another thread - I think it should be continued, but I did not mean to take over Nicole's thread.
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/834391#Post834391

Nicole, I am so sorry that you are having such a difficult time with your gliders. You are in my thoughts.