No problem Anita!!! Count on me anytime to go "educate" people who buy from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets!!!!

Oh, and nobody gets bashed from purchasing from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets. We are here for the GOOD OF THE GLIDER. No matter where you purchased your glider from you can count on up to date, good information here on GC.

I guess I should also stop answering at least one call a week from people who did purchase from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets and are desperate because their glider is sick and they do not know what to do. After all, (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets has such good information that us little people could never imagine of having.

mill breeders exist because someone is buying from them. This someone is not you or me. mill breeders do not sell in "small quantities". So, who keeps them in business????? The likes of Virgil!!!! mill breeders are just that mill breeders. If they were interested in better education and better standard for their gliders, they would not be a MILL. They would be respected, responsible breeders.

Paula

Look, SPIN does it's best to educate the public so they know the warning signs of mill bred gliders and the brokers who sell the mill breeders' wares- the LAWS need to change and that will SHUT DOEN THE mill breeders and then brokers like (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets will have TWO CHOICES...

1) Buy from acceptable breeders who will FORCE them to change their tactics and their "education and information" or refuse to sell to them

OR

2) Stop selling gliders altogether

Unfortunately, the community seems more interested in DEBATING about mill breeders and (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets than they do in LOBBYING to STOP the mistreatment of gliders- if we are all REALLY out to better things "for the good of the glider" then WE are the ONLY ones who can STOP the mill breeders... we need to STOP arguing this out amongst ourselves and GET THE LAWS CHANGED

Also unfortunately, if (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is left with option # 2, you haev to ask yourself- if the almighty dollar is their only goal, WHAT POOR SPECIES WILL THEY FIND A WAY TO EXPLOIT NEXT???

welll.... lol okay.. lets see if I can do this another way..

(PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is not the first broker this community has had to deal with and a couple in the past has been successful in being shut down.. but that all depends on what you call sucessful..

let me go backwards, since hushpuppy is well aware of the mass efforts to shut down CCW and using the same methods that are being used today.. and guess what it hasn't worked attempts were made for nearly 10 years to shut them down and we as a community didn't make it happen.. that is when hushpuppy started collecting those laws.. as well as many of us others. but we knew then the only way was to get the laws changed.. well did that happen??? no.. did all the bashing slamming ostracizing make it change ? no... CW chose to shut down on his own.. mike mcgrath before him, years of attempts, bashing education by alienation.. but did anything change??? NO...

Jen xfilefan and a few from her area did manage to shut down a broker/dealer.. but guess what??? the breeder was still in business. so what attempts really worked.. was it truely successful, when yet another broker pops up in her place selling the same gliders.

before her we were still trying with ccw mike mcgrath and several other mill breeders, yes including ffr, all to no avail.. why? because the laws were not changed, because the only people that got educated was the ones that trickled into here.. we all went to the expos, flea markets, fairs etc... and did it make a dent? NOT really the few we educated was replaced by more impulse buyers. these brokers/breeders are marketing geniuses, they know the laws and they stay just under the wire with it.

then before them was a breeder/broker we did shut down.. very few people were around then that are here now. That was Tony Cudo, who by the way still runs exotic animal expos throughout the us mainly in nc. but his gliders were infested with parasites and bacterias, in a year he was closed down.. but not without a huge price... you see his business was ... animals exotique, which after the sick, old, and handicapped gliders were put down, the rest of his company was sold.. yep.. great we finally had him gone.. but did we, his gliders and business was sold to cliff, susan's husband from FFR..

after all they have to go to a usda licensed facility, and who would have room for hundreds more gliders , than other large breeders.. so.. was that really a success? depends on who you ask.. was it really a better move for the gliders? who knows, I never will.

What I do know, is that people need to look at the history, and quit doing what has been done for the last 12 years, that has NOT worked.

the community needs to pull together, all the way across the board, to make the gliders lives better, address each issue at the level it needs addressed, because just as labandglider said ... we stop him from selling gliders, there are plenty of other animals to take their place,

if it is only stopped at the broker level, people changes, same breeder same issues..

if it is only stopped at the breeder level, then they will find another breeder to get their gliders from, different breeders, same issues..

we all were so busy looking at closing them down, we failed to follow the little processes and protocols needed to make a difference.

the community can't even agree on a minimum cage size, a basic diet that is acceptable regardless of age. they can't even come up with a definitive definition of a legal selling age.

Hushpuppy knows what needs to be done in fl.. I highly suggest each person sit back and take a good look at what they truly wish to accomplish, but much could have already been done, and you should have enough info to get things done now.. but they will be fruitless without a plan in the works, to get the specifics on current laws, and to get minimum standards on others.

if anyone in fl needs help to make immediate changes please let me know.. but trust me.. it will only be a pebble but it will be enough to make a huge difference, even if it is only temporary..

so you see those of you in fl that are dealing with (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets, this is not a first especially for the fl area.. and they won't be the last, a lot of energy has already been wasted.. it is time the community pulls together and develops an educational plan that will include the people who don't come online, and for those that we don't reach by personal visits..

Lori, I'm not sure that I understand some of what you said, but what I do understand is that we can never give up on speaking for those that can not speak for themselves. Just like a pastor doesn't give up simply because there are more sinners today than there was yesterday, and a police officer doesn't stop just because a judge keeps letting them go, and HSUS doesn't throw in the towel even though the mills just keep coming, we must continue. Mills are wrong; dog mills, glider mills, hamster mills, it makes no difference they are wrong. The animals are the victims, not the dealers or the breeders.

Forums like GC and GG that allows us to publicly post the facts are the best educational tools available. Not the only too, just the best. And the very fact that some of these mills are going to such great lengths to discredit these forums is proof that we are at least making a dent in their armor.

There is a big difference between advertising and lying. Perfect Pocket Pets and the other mill dealers need to stop telling people that gliders will get along with dogs and cats, and that they make great pet for small children, and for gosh sakes if you are not breeding the gliders that you sell, stop telling people that you do. These are just a few of the things that are said to make a sale without consideration for the animals.

I don’t think we need to agree on everything but I think we can all agree that a three week oop joey needs milk, not hard pellets and apples. I think we can all agree that mills are potentially cesspools of disease. I think we can agree that all animals deserve veterinary care when they are sick. I think we can agree that water should be available at all times. I’ll bet there are other things that we could all agree on if we just tried.

I agree that education is the answer and that we are unlikely to get the mills shut down legally, although I applaud those documenting health issues etc. in gliders who are working legally to shut the mills down.

Honestly though Bourbon, I was really surprised by your post though where it seemed like you were saying that (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets really "isn't that bad." True, some people are going to promote different husbandry ideas. For instance, we might disagree slightly on the best diet.

However, (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets advocates a lot of things that are just blatantly terrible for gliders (many of which have already been listed, like selling gliders way too young, telling people to feed them only apples, telling people they don't need vets and just give them peptobismol, etc). These aren't even arguable points, or points we can "agree to disagree" on. This is really just awful.

It's hard to educate people. Look how much puppy mills have been in the media, on Oprah, the whole nine yards, and look how many people still buy puppies from pet stores. They just busted a huge mill in WA a few weeks ago and the shelter I work for is taking in some puppies. If this is still going on with dogs, with all the education and publicity out there, it makes me wonder what it would take to educate people about GLIDERS. I don't have an answer. But let's all agree that (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is putting gliders at risk, and I have a hard time believing that it's simply out of ignorance...they have to have figured out by now that what they are doing is not good for gliders.

never said we don't agree on all of those things and more.. just that it is time we take a different tactic towards the education process.

We need to open ourselves up instead to the bashing and knarling.. to all start to work together as a community to get changes implemented..

example it is not giving up on the gliders if the people open their hearts to the gliders needs, regardless if it is during the sales or after the sales.. example as I stated before..

work on getting quality products to the new owners, no matter what it takes.. if it takes working with (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets on their level.. (showing them they can make more money, by selling quality products.. bigger cages, various diets..)

this would improve the gliders lives at the minumum those going to their new homes. at the same time, offering other types of assistance in various areas.

for those that have twisted and THINK... no I am not on their payroll, no, I am not even in communication with them.. and no I don't agree with their practices nor think everything they teach is good..

but they have something we don't and that is the numbers to make changes..

we have something they don't.. but together working on different levels, changes can be made a little at a time.
those little changes lead to bigger ones. but the reception for change must be receptive, and I really don't think there ever will be a time when bashing someone will make them receptive to any change.

no I don't think they fear us in anyway shape or form, do we even make a dent? probably not..simply because they don't need us.. so they believe.. but we do have the better products, with quality safety and years of use behind us. we also cover an area they do not. we also have the updates on medical as well as diets bonding etc..

but in reality, they don't need us. no more than any other breeder needs us.. we are here to help, we are here to make the changes that need made.. so that is where we need to start.. as I said start.. it will take a quick roll of many pebbles to create a pathway for the changes.. the question is... who is willing to work on those pebbles or are we going to try to move the boulders and leave the pebbles behind? because it is going to take us longer to move the boulder than it is to move the pebbles.. after 12 years.. the boulder hasn't moved and the pebbles are accumulating..

Changing laws takes time and commitment. One way to do it is to have a representative introduce a bill for you. I don't have those kinds of contacts and if anyone does now would be the time to say so.

The other way to do it is through a voter innitative. This can't be done on a federal level. But it can be done in about 50% of the states. And it is different in each state. In florida we would need to collect 60% of the signatures that voted in the last presidential election.

On the other hand, a peaceful protest at the gate of a certain gated community might work. Or there are other sensitive places that a protest might draw unwanted attention to someones business practices. Just a suggestion.

2000 signatures with printed names address and phone numbers on a specified petition will work for the usda..

a handful of vet reports with documentation as to the purchase of the gliders delivered by a vet stating that sales of animals with a highly contagious problem (giardia, bacterial) with the threats of the cdc being called to the flea markets may also work. It did here. the collection of data through the cdc... getting the state to change and the states that have the higher incidences of problems, to make efforts to keep the environment clean of these problems.. the florida fish and game with a handful of medical papers completed documentation.. there is so much that could be done at the county, and state levels as well as the business levels.

these are the pebbles.. in the meantime, find out the breeder, put the pressure on at the usda level.. Doris hackworth is the usda vet there in va. she is already aware of issues.. get them involved, work the supervisors of the usda in the region pushing the record keeping.. they know who the breeder is, and it should be a matter of public record..

florida fish and game, the cage requirements are in effect at all times, even over night stays..

but the push needs to be at the usda level of minimum requirements..

ferret owners got changes implemented
http://www.ferret.org/news/2006-02-20_USDA_update.htm

this excerpt came from a dog board about puppy mills


here is the link for the full article
http://www.cchs-petshelter.org/id77.html

we can start to make the steps toward change or we can wait an additional 12 years.. but these are the pebbles that needs moved.. eventually everything will fall into place..
it may not be today may not be this decade, but it is our responsibility to at the minimum, get the changes started legally..

I do believe that the laws need to be changed, but once they are changed they need to be enforced. Your going to run into that problem too. I see what you are saying Bourbon and I also see what the others are saying too.

You have TGI, you have SPIN, you have GC, LGG, SESG, Critterhill, and what about all the rescues that are out there. Maybe instead of treating most of our gatherings as just that, we can start adding a little more on what needs to be done in our states to 1.) Get the laws changed 2.) Make sure they have the people to enforce those laws and 3.) Make sure there is someone knowledgable enough to take in those that are confiscated. I could go on and on about things that need to be looked into. But in the meantime TGI, SPIN and others like them are pebbles. Throw that pebble into the water and it will make ripples. If they save even one glider I consider that a good thing. But it could be a bigger thing. Those ripples could be waves if people sincerely wanted them to be and if you want something how do you get it........ you work [censored] hard.

But Bourben is right, all of us, the initiatives, the boards, the slaves, the breeders NEED to come together and start getting guidelines into place so we know what to ask for when we start lobbying to have laws changed and we can't shut our minds or hearts about ideas we don't agree with. All that does is slow the process down even more, it's already been how long? How much longer does it have to be?

I know there are things that should be put into here that I haven't thought of or would probably never even think of on my own. So I'm going to make the start and challenge everyone everywhere to think about what is most important.

I will open up my home, my city, my state for the year of 2010 to gather all of those people and organizations that want to be involved to come together and make those pebbles start a landslide. I can't do this on my own, but I'm perfectly willing to try. I'll get back to you with dates. Who knows maybe if someone sees us trying to work together it could start other landslides for other species of animals. Anyone want to help, call me (405)514-3273 and yes I know a couple of people here that could help out. I just have to get their wallets to open instead of their mouths.

Hey, one can only hope. Hope is where it all starts.

Sincerely,
Andrea M Sterling (Hopeful Romantic)

Signatures for the USDA and vet records proving (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets babies were ill when purchased will work the the USDA... what we really NEED, though, is for each STATE to change it's LAWS regarding sugar gliders... there are many things mill breeders do that is frankly TERRIBLE for gliders but NOT illegal because there are no LAWS IN PLACE to govern them. If there were, they'd have to clean up their acts... and THAT would result in BETTER gliders being provided to (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets and other class B brokers at a HIGHER cost, which MIGHT cause them to close up shop OR might cause them to at LEAST be required to be HONEST, even if it did NOT stop them from selling at all. The thing is, these things are regulated on a state-by-state basis... and the MAJOR problem is that the glider community is LARGE but we are VERY spread out... if EVEYONE on GC pushed for a US law to be changed we could make a difference- but are there enough people ont he borads in each individual STATE to have the same impact on that state? Probably not- however, if we try for a US law, we MIGHT have more chance of making an impact... IT is all fine and well for different programs to be set up to stop mill breeders... but the MOST EFFECTIVE way to do so is to EDUCATE the public... NOT just current gldier owners, but EVERYONE... why? Because then people who come across (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets or other class B brokers will lready KNOW what they are told is BUNK... and they will either AVOID them or they will at least make their purchase KNOWING the "truth" about gldiers and get them/provide them with the PROPER care... and THAT is what S.P.I.N. does- educate the GENERAL PUBLIC...

This is Docket ID: APHIS-2005-0063 and from what I’ve read this proposal went forward and then just died. The IFC submitted a petition in March of 2004. It looks like it was a well thought out and supported petition but at this point it has not been entered as a rule. The only thing that I can find on it recently comes from this site

ferret congress



If this is true, what chance does the sugar glider industry have?







It’s been a while since I reviewed the Florida Wildlife rules but I think the law that you are referring to only applies to sugar glider pet owners, and that just might be a tree that we don’t want to shake. Fl Wild Life Rules DO allow for smaller cages for transport and for animal sales.




The best thing in the works from USDA right now is the mimimum transport age rule (APHIS-2006-0024) which was proposed last year. It states



Let's cross our fingers on this one.

All I can say is... I am sorry you really feel that way..



What chance do they have if we sit back?



why not? Is there people you know feels they are above the law? Everyone I knew had cages that were up to fl standards. The laws are for everyone, regardless, and the fl division of wildlife told me, they didn't care who it was or why they were in town or for how long, the law is the law.

you see I will never give up hope that not only is there a chance, but with the community efforts working together, mountains can be moved.. I personally won't give up, because, the light at the end of the tunnel seems dim, as I have seen far too many gliders survive, that shouldn't have, Withs community effort and everyone working together, and God's will, I do believe the day will come..

someone and I spoke years ago about a little pass called the eye of the needle, that person told me.. with God anything is possible.

so I will continue to try, if one thing doesn't work, then I will attempt another, and another and another.

Lori Jean? Again I'm not sure that I understand what you are talking about. Did you mean me? or someone else? Because I didn't post any fealings; just facts that the ferret effort failed. Nothing personal, no fealings, just the laws. And again, I have actually read them. So if you have documentation that any of the laws that I spoke of is wrong, please post it for all of us to see.

Maybe you should get some rest sweetie. We can't win this battle and stop the mills if you are not thinking clearly. Hugs.

now that is pathethic, but LOL, that is okay, if it makes you feel empowered? Or more like my mommy by using my first and middle name.. LOL do you really feel like you are scolding me? LOL okay... since I have no problems helping those in need, I guess I will let this go as you NEED to feel that way.. LOL

Oh no,just the facts and the rules and the laws, and some honest concern for you since some of the posts that you made were a little confusing. If that offends you, then I am very sorry. So much for all of us getting along.

Anita RAE

I thought it was just me that was lost several post back
Cynthia KAY

Isn't USDA Federal? If it is, the rules would apply to all states involved?

You're not the only one
-Julie DEANNE

Yes, USDA is federal.

I wish you guys could see just how close you are.. really!! You have the same vision for the future.. Can one attack from one side and the other gettem from the bottom? You guys wont have to work "together" but the end could be the same. The long term vision. If Bourbon thinks this "might"work.. let her..She's not asking anyone to help.
I personally dont agree with her way, but heck.. try and try and try.

I dont think (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets needs education. He knows what he should be doing, he chooses not to, he knows the laws trust me that man has a panel of lawyers, they find aways around them.... that is the difference, we can teach and help people that dont know, this man simply doesnt care. He already goes above and beyond to detour their customer base around the boards and better education.



Oh and I dont have a middle name, honestly, my Dad hated his so didnt give me or my sister one... but can I still play?

anjill_tree, yes usda is federal but they do not have a minimum cage cage size, selling age, standard diet minimums or enforcement of paperwork. so that is where the standards needs changed and amended


but the florida people are the ones on this thread screaming the loudest about the standards of care and what they have seen in fl..

so that is where florida fish and game laws come in which because they DO have standards is areas where the floridians can make a difference..

in florida they have huge cage requirements, and that alone will get the ball moving IF you have someone wishing to push the issues.. if the issues are to really stop this care and inhumane treatment then start it one state at a time, at least it would be a start.

but the response was..



why not shake that tree? why not get the fish and game involved..???

and to think that just because the ferret owners bill didn't make it all the way through, doesn't mean, they didn't try,

they did more than we as a glider community has done.. at least they got their bill looked at,

We were told by usda what we needed, and it was more than the ferret owners provided.but all these years nothing is being done, whether it is because of the defeatest attitudes, "why should we try no one else has done it" or whether it is because some people don't want to push the envelopes because maybe someone they know is going to be caught by the same laws set up to protect the gliders from the insane conditions..

who knows but this thread is exactly why legal movements are not being made.

either step up to the plate and try to get the legal standards set (us wide) or start with the info that you have and start on your statewide level. because those laws are already there, push for that enforcement,

what good is it to have the laws if you don't push to enforce the ones we have, and that can ONLY be done on legal levels..

enough complaints to the right people.. and they will be forced to make a stand..

enough excuses and we will be in the same argument/discussion another 12 years from now.

The original poster hasnt come back and posted again. This is the perfect example of what a troll does. Goes in, creates chaos, watches and laughs as the community continues fighting.

I cant beleive you guys fall for this.

At this point, I think the thread has moved beyond what the OP posted about. I think that the thread has become about a bigger issue, which is very important. I don't think anyone is "falling" for anything at this point.

This is an issue that needs to be discussed and even though it sounds like a lot of arguing, a lot of good points are being made on every side. I think that this is exactly what needs to happen. By voicing facts and opinions on this issue, they are helping to educate others (like me) who are new to this community and need that direction so that we can make informed opinions/decisions.

Further, I think that this kind of debate needs to happen in any area. Do politicians get along? Certainly not. Change takes place. Granted, it's not all what "everyone" wants, we're not all going to agree on every issue... it sounds weird, but I think all this is a step in the right direction.

Hmmm....I am not as well versed in much of these matters as the rest of you, but I thought I would share a little too.

First off, I do not believe that SunCaoast is a bad breeder. I have bought some products from them before and have their sturdy cage. I also have read their newsletters and believe they have a knowledgeable staff and have the glider's best interest at heart. Not all good breeders will everything Lisa does and I respect her wishes about not seeing where her gliders are kept. I think it is more important that the gliders people get from her are happy and healthy. Isn't this an indication that the parents are happy and healthy? I may be new to this, but it sounds like it would be more trouble to not keep the parents in good conditions, but still keep the joeys clean, happy, and healthy. Why not just care for the parents so everyone is happy! I really believe that Lisa cares about sugar gliders and I bet her gliders are happy!

As for changing the laws I am reminded of a quote "People Shouldn't Be Afraid of Their Government, Governments' Should Be Afraid of Their People". It is a hard and long road, but we can get this done! We need someone with the knowledge and know-how to kick start this! People! We can get this done!

Ferret owners got very far and this proves we can do it too. If we look at what they did I believe we can go further! We need to look into the reason why the ferret laws didn't get changed and see what angle we can take to get this done. I bet the ferret owners are not finished either!

I agree with you!

The subject is Sun Coast vs (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets and no one is saying what is being discussed should not be discussed. Opening a new thread with the appropriate subject and continuing there may be healthier for everyone.

Oh yeah, I feel the love. Haha that was a joke folks, so don’t get in a huff.

And don’t worry about all the name calling. I just happen to have my big girl panties on. And I can assure you that no matter what is said, I will stand against mills and mill dealers just like many of you do.

So back on topic. It is a well known fact that the major chain pet stores get their animals from mills; large mills. That’s been proven time and time again. Yet innocent uneducated people keep going there and purchasing from these stores. Now I can’t tell people not to shop there but, I can tell you that I don’t. I don’t purchase their animals, their cages, their toys or their meal worms. Because I know that any money that I would spend in a chain pet store supports mill breeders.

Wouldn’t it be better to find a small pet store that gets its animals from local breeders and purchase from them? They are out there; you just have to find them. Our very own Critter Love in Texas is such a pet store. That is why I am so adamant about not buying sugar gliders from people that you or someone that you trust hasn’t seen the breeding setup.

Ok, remember that this is the internet. Didn’t someone put out a song about “I’m so much cooler online”? We are going to have to be on our toes or we are going to fall for all sorts of cons.

Lisa at Sun Coast has always said that she has 100 breeding pairs/ 200 gliders. And she admitted earlier in this post that she ships about 10 gliders a week/ approximately 500 a year. The problem is that the inspection report for Lisa two years ago records an animal inventory of 30 sugar gliders. And the inspection report for last year records the animal inventory as 29 sugar gliders. Hmmmmm. Neither report specified if the inventory was adults or joeys. Even if that was 30 adult females with one very happy male, and each female produced two joeys three times a year, that would only account for 180 joeys. Double Hmmmmmm. So the question is where does the other 320 gliders come from? When you add that to the fact that no body has been allowed to peep through that window, and no body knows what happens to the retired breeders, Triple Hmmmmmm? And I have to say again that I have no animosity towards Lisa and I hope I am wrong about this, but it is starting to look like Suncoast is not breeding their own sugar gliders.

One thing that we can all do is start spelling out the names, especially on these boards that are open to the public. That way if any of the innocent consumers are trying to educate themselves by doing an internet search, the information that we type in will come up in the search. So instead of (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets we should type Perfect Pocket Pets, instead of SC we should type Sun Coast, instead of CCW type Custom Cage Works, and GRU for Gliders R Us.

Another thing we can all do is know the laws; Federal, State and local. Yeah, I know it is time consuming, but education is power. And if we know the law, we will be able to identify a company that is breaking the law. And we need to know who to call if we happen to walk into a pet store see a sick animal or a home show that is selling four week old joeys. So you need to know the phone numbers; Federal, State and local.

Another thing that all of us can do is read the USDA inspection reports. They are public records and they have recently been published online. Again, time consuming but sometimes eye opening.

Perhaps we could petition USDA to make it mandatory for inspectors to include animal inventory in their inspection reports. I notice that some inspector include it and some don’t. I know the numbers don’t tell the whole story but it tells a lot. And this is something that would benefit all animals.

Another thing is that we could petition for the source of origin to be revealed by dealers and pet stores. I read somewhere that they are doing that in California. Maybe some of our Cali members could tell us how this works. If I remember the article correctly, the source of the animals is displayed on the cage so that consumers can look up where the animals come from. This is also something that would benefit all animals.

Just some thoughts.

Anita, would you send me, post, or tell me what to search to see the USDA inspection reports you mentioned.

Your double hmmmmm's have me wanting to do some of my own research and I didn't know such information was available.

Thanks!

Sure, go here

Animal Welfare

Then about half way down the page select "inspection reports"

Then select what type you want. Probably breeder or Dealer.

Then select a state.

Some are listed under the company name and others are listed under the company onwners's name. Click on whatever name you want and the reports will open up.

If you find anything, please let us know.