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Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352657
08/02/07 02:41 PM
08/02/07 02:41 PM

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Kathryn
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ok... the definition of pedigree via Webster's:

"an ancestral line : LINEAGE b : the origin and the history of something; broadly : BACKGROUND, HISTORY
3 a : a distinguished ancestry b : the recorded purity of breed of an individual or strain "

So yes I think that is exactly what is being referred to when people are talking about Lines, pedigrees, backgrounds, whatever you want to call it, its all the same thing.

And I never said that it was ok to breed rescues. I don't have rescues. And I agree that rescues should not be bread due to the stress issues. But not every glider owned without a known background is a rescue.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352660
08/02/07 02:43 PM
08/02/07 02:43 PM

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HelloSugar
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Princess Megi, while that may be a great show of numbers, it doesn't apply to what I'm talking about.

Yes, a male glider can father countless babies, but all those numbers mean nothing if a glider owner doesn't allow their gliders to constantly breed. That's my whole point.

Non-nuetering does not equal breeding. Humans' actions lead to their pets breeding. Captive gliders only breed because we put the males/females together and let them. That can be resolved by keeping them in same sex pairs.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352661
08/02/07 02:46 PM
08/02/07 02:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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They do. I guess what I meant was...Rescues and Rehomes have already had the stress of moving homes, by requiring them to breed, we are only adding to their stress and it is not fair to them (because they've already lived a stressful life). A glider who has only been in 1 home (sold as a joey) can handle the stresses of breeding much more easily than a rescue or rehome which is why they are the only gliders that should be breeding. None of my gliders breed. I didn't buy them to make money or babies. They were brought into my home to be loved and spoiled.

I guess the point I was trying to get across is that rescues and rehomes have been through to much stress to be considered for breeding.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352663
08/02/07 02:46 PM
08/02/07 02:46 PM

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HelloSugar
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No SugarBlossoms, please refrain from putting words into my mouth. By no means would I ever keep a single glider. You can keep them in same sex pairs or groups. Yes, even males can cohabitate peacefully together.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352664
08/02/07 02:47 PM
08/02/07 02:47 PM

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shelleriddle
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Its very difficult to keep two or more non-neutered boys together. I'm not saying it can't be done but its not as easy as keeping neutered boys together. I just got in two un neutered boys and I am having them neutered as soon as possible. I agree breeding should not be in the picture for new glider owners.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352667
08/02/07 02:50 PM
08/02/07 02:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
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princessmegi  Offline
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NW Missouri
If you go back to the gliders breeder they should have the lineage. They should be able to tell you who the parents are and where they purchased the parents.
You could do this:
Person A (you) bought a glider from person (B)
Person B tells you who the parents are and where they were purchased (C).
A goes to C and asks about the joeys sold to B. C should then know the paretns of B's joeys.

You can do this for several generations and you then have your lineage. It is not a hard thing to do.



You can not keep males as same sex pairs. Eventually (in almost every case) they will either fight or one will become dominate and mate (rape) the other male.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352668
08/02/07 02:50 PM
08/02/07 02:50 PM
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Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
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SugarBlossoms  Offline
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Originally Posted By: HelloSugar
That can be resolved by keeping them in same sex pairs.


This is only "safe" trial IF the males are twins and have grown up together. It can happen that 2 unneutered males live together in harmony, but in no way likely.

Females, yes.

But then what you are saying is no gliders in captivity would ever have joeys. Where did you get your gliders?


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352670
08/02/07 02:52 PM
08/02/07 02:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
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SugarBlossoms  Offline
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USA
Originally Posted By: HelloSugar
No SugarBlossoms, please refrain from putting words into my mouth.


If you go back and read what I wrote, I did not put any words in your mouth. I ASKED you a question.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352673
08/02/07 02:57 PM
08/02/07 02:57 PM

K
Kathryn
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Kathryn
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Originally Posted By: princessmegi
If you go back to the gliders breeder they should have the lineage. They should be able to tell you who the parents are and where they purchased the parents.
You could do this:
Person A (you) bought a glider from person (B)
Person B tells you who the parents are and where they were purchased (C).
A goes to C and asks about the joeys sold to B. C should then know the paretns of B's joeys.

You can do this for several generations and you then have your lineage. It is not a hard thing to do.


No, its not, but you and I both know that its a hard thing to track. Most fly by night breeders don't keep records, accurate ones anyway. And when a glider is purchaced from a pet store its impossable. I know you can try to the best of your ability to recreate the pedigree. But hitting a dead end, that makes your glider a dud, so to speak? (I hate that I'm speaking about them like this! I swear I don't even care about breeding... I'm just curios about the point. I just know that most breeders started like this so it ticks me off.... I would never talk about my sweet babies as things otherwise!)

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #352674
08/02/07 02:57 PM
08/02/07 02:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
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USA
With the mentioning of taking them out of the wild to begin with.

First of all, just like the rest of history in the United States, I DIDN'T do it. I wasn't responsible for the suggies coming over here. However, since they ARE already here, I am going to love them, rescue them and do anything and everything in my power to ensure they are WELL taken care of. This means everything that pertains to them physically and or mentally. Even if means remortgaging my home to do it.

They did not choose to be here, I DID NOT choose FOR them to be here either.

Then again, my parents didn't choose me and I didn't choose them or to be here but the hey, we're all here, let's be happy! smile


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352677
08/02/07 02:59 PM
08/02/07 02:59 PM
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Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
MizValorie Offline
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Thanks Megan. Now I understand the thought process.

Mine are also in a nonbreeding home.

All are rescues except Nash.


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #352679
08/02/07 03:01 PM
08/02/07 03:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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NW Missouri
Kathryn, if you don't know your gliders background, there is still that chance that they are related. Just because a color is expressed in a glider doesn't mean that there aren't other colors in it's background. I have a WF Mosaic who has WF, Mosaic, Lion, WF Lion, and Grey in his background. Just because he one color doesn't make him unrelated to those gliders. I guess my question is, if you don't know their background, why chance it? I'm not saying that makes your gliders any less special or duds. I'm just saying why chance the lives and health of any joeys they may have?



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352682
08/02/07 03:08 PM
08/02/07 03:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
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USA
Speaking of "natural habitat", it's not natural either for boys and girls to live in same sex pairs/colonies.

No, I don't have a problem with it as long as the males are neutered. You keep talking about natural habitats though, they don't live without mates in the wild.



Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352683
08/02/07 03:09 PM
08/02/07 03:09 PM

K
Kathryn
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Kathryn
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K



I belive that they lived far enough apart that they are not related.... facial structure is different, coloring is different (as you say, dosen't mean anything), the breeder of the girls is a small hobby breeder in AZ and the boy came from a pet store deep in TX. I feel very safe in saying that they are not related. BUT if they were it would be SO FAR REMOVED that it would not be an issue.

I don't even want to see an ill response to that last statement. Many breeders do, have, and will line breed to a degree. So don't jump me for that one.

Last edited by Kathryn; 08/02/07 03:10 PM.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352685
08/02/07 03:12 PM
08/02/07 03:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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NW Missouri
I understand where you're coming from. I guess I just don't understand the need to let them breed. I've always lived with "Better Safe than Sorry" where my pets are concerned.

Also, would you sell/give away the joeys? If so, what if that person also decides to breed and they get a related glider, but don't know it because of the lack of a provided lineage?



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352690
08/02/07 03:20 PM
08/02/07 03:20 PM

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Kathryn
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Kathryn
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K



I don't intend to "breed",as in become a breeder, at all... lol

I will just let them have a family, and I have a few people who seriously wany joeys from them, I have flat out told two of them NO because they would NOT be good owners and two will make amazing owners! One an animal controll officer in an unfriendly state! lol She is amazing and will make the best suggie momma ever! I do hope she gets one someday.

But after that I plan to fix my male. I don't want to breed.

I just know that it all started out with undocumented gliders and that its all related gliders now. I see the trend going towards rare gliders and since they are all becoming so closely related.... well I'm sure you can follow my thought process....

Gliders in circles will become even closer related! Yikes! Document it all you want. But search out new blood. wink lol

Last edited by Kathryn; 08/02/07 03:22 PM.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352694
08/02/07 03:23 PM
08/02/07 03:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
breeders of rare gliders are breeding the lines out. Many are breeding leus and leus hets to unrelated greys (with only grey backgrounds) to widen the gene pool. They are just breeding to greys that have documented histories.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352714
08/02/07 03:49 PM
08/02/07 03:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,801
SE Minnesota..
GliderLove Offline
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GliderLove  Offline
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This has been a very good thread, I think many newbies, and people considering to breed should read this thread just for reference and knowledge. Their have been many informative points made here, and some I personally think are absurd. But either way I think the discussion in the thread has been great!


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: GliderLove] #352726
08/02/07 04:06 PM
08/02/07 04:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
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Doniphan Mo
I just absolutly do not believe you have to have a pedigree to breed. We all know we should not breed related gliders. That is just a given. Whatever other people buy and breed is really none of my businass. If I'm interested in a glider whether it has a pedigree or not I might buy it and I might breed it. I think it's wrong to assume every newbie needs to spend time on the board before venturing out. Smart people are going to do it right and you can't stop the other people who are going to do it anyway. My two cents blush wave

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Shuttershade] #352729
08/02/07 04:07 PM
08/02/07 04:07 PM

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LissaJane
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Here is my 2 cents. I am truly sorry if it upsets any of you, but I feel very strongly about it and this is a public message board.

To breed just because you want the experience of watching a joey being raised is selfish. There are many gliders being sold in pet stores and from mills to the general public and this creates a ton of gliders available for re-home and rescue. So breeding instead of giving one of these needy animals a home just because you want to watch a joey grow up is selfish IMHO.

It is very easy to breed and this is apparent with the amount of gliders being sold from mills, pet stores, private breeders, oh and my favorite, the flea market stalls. I don't agree with supporting any of this. There are gliders being put out there on to the market that have no hope of finding a good home because it is so easy for them to be breed in the US. This is the kind of breeding I despise most...breeding for profit. IMHO this should be illegal and stopped.

I have gliders, one was a rescue from a terrible privet breeder and the other 2 were from a local pet store. Now, if I had know what I do now about the species before I bought my first girl a few years ago, I would have never ever bought gliders. I did research, I talked to other owners on line, I read books, I thought I was prepared. I was wrong.

These animals should have never ever been made pets. They are NOT domesticated pets. Having studied domestication in detail through my zoolarchaelogical degree, I have come to realize it is very very unlikely they ever will be domesticated in the true sense. This means they will be plagued with problems that non-domesticated animals suffer from when kept in human conditions (what are those you say? look on the boards in the health and hygiene sections, or better yet the emergency sections). As much as we say we love our babies and wish the world for them, by encouraging breeding and the continued market for them as pets, we are destroying what this species was truly meant to be...wild animals roaming free in Australia.

If we truly love gliders, I feel we should discourage breeding, discourage the market, and encourage knowledge and conservation of wild sugar gliders in their natural habitat. Og course we must take care of the gliders alive and already in the US. How can we do this> Rescue and re-home and not buying from pet stores, mills,or any kind of breeders. There is a crisis in this country with domesticate animals (cats and dogs) and breeding. There are more homeless pets then we can count and many more have homes but suffer from poor conditions. Let us try to curve the breeding of our beloved suggies now before they, like so many others, suffer the same fate on such a massive scale.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352733
08/02/07 04:17 PM
08/02/07 04:17 PM

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Kali_Goddess
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Kali_Goddess
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Originally Posted By: LissaJane


To breed just because you want the experience of watching a joey being raised is selfish. There are many gliders being sold in pet stores and from mills to the general public and this creates a ton of gliders available for re-home and rescue. So breeding instead of giving one of these needy animals a home just because you want to watch a joey grow up is selfish IMHO.


Does that mean people shouldn't have their own human babies? Cause there's plenty kids in foster care that need loving homes too. Doesn't that imply that people who have their own familes instead of adopting are selfish for exactly the same reasons?

Since they are pets, isn't it normal for us to be selfish with them (to a degree)? I'm not saying to breed indescriminately, but to grow your own family colony is wrong? I think mommy daddy and on or two joey would be a perfect size.

Last edited by Kali_Goddess; 08/02/07 04:18 PM.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352737
08/02/07 04:28 PM
08/02/07 04:28 PM

K
Kathryn
Unregistered
Kathryn
Unregistered
K



Originally Posted By: Kali_Goddess
Originally Posted By: LissaJane


To breed just because you want the experience of watching a joey being raised is selfish. There are many gliders being sold in pet stores and from mills to the general public and this creates a ton of gliders available for re-home and rescue. So breeding instead of giving one of these needy animals a home just because you want to watch a joey grow up is selfish IMHO.


Does that mean people shouldn't have their own human babies? Cause there's plenty kids in foster care that need loving homes too. Doesn't that imply that people who have their own familes instead of adopting are selfish for exactly the same reasons?

Since they are pets, isn't it normal for us to be selfish with them (to a degree)? I'm not saying to breed indescriminately, but to grow your own family colony is wrong? I think mommy daddy and on or two joey would be a perfect size.


Thats what I'm going for! I want a happy lil colony!

But I guess I could always take the chance in adopting a few others and throw them in the mix and hope for the best??? I think that would be a pretty big risk... I think my lil family would be much happier with their own offspring than strangers coming to live with them. but thats just speculation...

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352738
08/02/07 04:30 PM
08/02/07 04:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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Why can't they just be happy with each other? I don't understand why they can't be happy as just 3?



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352740
08/02/07 04:31 PM
08/02/07 04:31 PM

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LissaJane
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LissaJane
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Well actually, yes, I do think that is selfish too. But that is besides the point and I will probably have children.
But, no it is not the same reasons or the same thing.

To have our own children, we are participating in our species continuation on this earth. There are many other reasons why people choose to and don't choose to have children, but this is within our own species. Our speciual procreation involves so many natural and cultural urges and discouragements it is not even on the same playing as what we our discussing here. Simply because, procreation deals with our own species, not that of another. So no, it isn't even near the same thing.

There are, however, many factors, natural and cultural, that go into the breeding of our pets too. But, it is different. Unlike many domesticated animals, such as horses and cows, sugar gliders do not create a subsistence or work base upon which we can depend on. It is much closer to the domestication of the dog, but even that, when domestication began, was much more involved in the betterment of the species though hunting companions and guards for the family.

I could write a book on the subject and we can go through every domesticated species if you like from the past 30,000 years. My point is, we in our modern era, have no need for the continued domestication of wild species except for our own personal enjoyment and fulfillment. Now why this is important, there are so many animals out there in desperate needs of homes that can fulfill this need that I think we should help those animals instead of breeding more just because we enjoy watching them grow. Having children (or not) and following a biological and cultural need that has existed for 1.8 million years is much different than breeding an animal because you enjoy it.


Now I respect everyone's right to choose what they like and what they do. I just wanted to give my opinion on the matter. That is all. I may not agree, but I truly do support you in your own personal freedom and choices to do as you will with your beloved animals. I just wanted to state how I feel about and how I wish things could and should be done. But, by no means do I want to force anyone to follow my beliefs. I really just wanted to state them.

Last edited by LissaJane; 08/02/07 04:36 PM.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352746
08/02/07 04:35 PM
08/02/07 04:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
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TheGliderPlayroom  Offline
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Youngstown, Ohio
Originally Posted By: Kathryn
I think that would be a pretty big risk... I think my lil family would be much happier with their own offspring than strangers coming to live with them. but thats just speculation...


I have had exactly the opposite experience- I had a pair with twin male joeys that came in as a rescue, and even neutered the males fought so badly they had to be seperated. On the other hand, I have completely unrelated, older neutered males that have gone together into a colony without a peep. It just plain depends on the gliders. Even with a breeding, bonded pair, you have to be prepared for the possiblity that someday they are going to stop getting along. Humans get divorced every day, it's not all that unusual to see glider pairs that have been together for years, that suddenly hate each other. Just among my own gliders I've seen it at least twice already.


Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352749
08/02/07 04:39 PM
08/02/07 04:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
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Doniphan Mo
I have a happy trio Megi but I didn't get it until I did some glider swapping. I think when you have more gliders like in a colony situation they become more interactive with each other.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352750
08/02/07 04:41 PM
08/02/07 04:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
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Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
I understand that it can be done, but I don't understand her reasoning. Her choices are let them have babies or get other gliders to intro to them. Why not just have 3 gliders in that cage? Why does it have to be an either or?



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352753
08/02/07 04:45 PM
08/02/07 04:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
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Long Island, NY
I had 5 females together for 4 years and were very happy together. One day two of them turned on the other three. Difference between what we have and out in the wild, they can get away from each other. There is never any guarantee that like humans once they are paired that they will be together forever.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352755
08/02/07 04:45 PM
08/02/07 04:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: Kathryn

Now, I have a boy from Texas, and two girls from AZ. Totally dif colors. What are the odds that they are related??? I'm putting my money on not at all, their facial structures are different.


I am still reading to catch up. (wow! Go to a doctor's appointment and you miss alot around here!) But I wanted to comment on this quote, Kathryn.

I was recently looking into purchasing 2 gliders. One is in Illinois, one is in Virginia. By studying their pedigrees, I found out the male's Grandfather was the Female's Father - obviously too closely related to breed.

Just because gliders are from different states and look different doesn't mean they aren't related!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352760
08/02/07 04:50 PM
08/02/07 04:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict
Carrie T  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
I guess I have a hard time understanding your point. I can't see her doing anything different than I did. I did bring some rescues in here and there but there was a time I wished I had just homegrown my own and kept them. I fail to understand what is wrong with that. There is no sweeter baby than one you have raised yourself. It's a perfect thing for one to do if they aren't up for rescue.

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