My issue with a rotation, such as you speak of, is what would that do to a glider's...so to speak, tummy? It would have to be hard on their systems to break down and digest the differences in each of the diets. (I hope you are understanding what I am trying to say <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />) Also, that would be outragously expensive to serve that way...the different vitamins (cost), and ingredients etc. Just my .02 cents.

Karin

Mikey... hey buddy! Don't feel like you're being ganged up on! I sure I hope I'm not one who made you feel that way. I thoroughly enjoy our discussions! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Karin I never thought of the tummy prob.

As for the money Well yeah theoretically it would but I'm thinking you make a little of each, store it and then remake it again later as needed. Since you arent offering more food just more variety I dont think it should cost too much more, though this I will have to research.

Would it be possible on a weekly or monthly basis perhaps. Im thinking this might be a way to prevent as I said boredom and also it gives different amts of other vitamins and such that it might be worth a try. What if one did it in a sesonal rotation as Mikey is making suggestions to the diet change w/ seasons.

Its not something Im planning on doing...but more an idea and Im wondering if it might be worth a shot. That an my sympathies as a human that if I were fed the same "base" daily I'd quit eating it too no matter what it was...lol

You know, it probably would be alright if one has picky glider's, to rotate let's say, the BML and PetPro...cannot see how that would really hurt them. And I will probably get wonked on the head for this one, but we always say "they will get bored eating the same thing"...but do they really? Gliders in the wild eat the same things (variation of things of course), dogs eat the same thing, cats...etc. I think we all humanize our glider's too much sometimes, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, I know I am guilty of that. Just food for thought.

Karin

You are right! I call them my kids. I'm a loser...lol. Though I just have a hard time feeding any animal the same thing daily..even our cat.

I'm thinking of giving syd some bml anyway since he is nursing twins still IP. I will do some price comparisons and a little nurtient analysis of the base fo the bml I make and compare it to the "base" of the mix I used to use for Priscillas diet.

What about Darcys. I dont hear too much about it but I did give some ensure to them as someone suggested for her to have protein. SHE LOVES IT!. She just goes crazy for the stuff and she sure isnt getting fat on it though I wish she would.....

Im trying to think how to encorporate it more into the diet.

I have to agree, I think this is a fantastic thread, for once it seems like questions are being able to be asked and as many answers as possible are being given or the best ideas to try and find the answers each seek.

As for me I have a total of 6 gliders, 3 cages (hope to be done to two in a couple months once dasher is bigger)two of my cages (princess and Babbax in one, spike in another) will eat the bml, and than I have pepper and bear and dasher. Pepper and Bear have never taken to BML for more than a few days at a time. I get so excited when they will eat it, but than before a week is up they have their noses in the air and wont touch it at all. Always made the same way....just not their choice of diet. So they are on the Darcy diet.
For a while I had them on the Pet-Pro diet with very good results. I was told by a very knowledgable person that it was close to the BML diet and I know of several others that use this diet as well. Yes it is hard, but all you do is add a little water or juice and let that absorb prior to feeding it. It stays together and does not crumble like some others do.

I also hope this thread is able to stay open. It has a lot of wheels turning and I have a feeling it is more along the lines of us all working together, keeping open minds and accepting others thoughts and opinions even if we dont agree with them.
This is the way It should be!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Hehe. I'm guilty as charged too. But I very much agree... folks do tend to be very anthropomorphic with their gliders. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

I just concluded a close to 2 hour long conversation on MSN with Bourbon....

I truly hope this post is not edited or deleted as that would be both a hiding of the truth and the deletion of an important addition to the context of this rather crucial and important conversation.

I am not bashing anyone by any means. The conversation went like this...

I opened with:

Well hello! It's an honour Bourbon!I must say before you say anything that I didn't mean to discredit your dietary plan at all. I simply originally had some questions and concerns....

Even my MSN screen name was changed to "BRB - I'm talking to one of the most influential people in the world of Sugar Gliders"

I will not go into detail about the whole conversation (as I had promised her that I would not make our conversation public) but I do know that I still don't have my answers and I am still unsatisfied with the information that I was presented with by Bourbon. I actually have many more questions and am even more convinced as to the validity of my standpoint that I'd orignially began in this thread. I tried to emphasize that I wasn't bashing the BML diet at all (I USE IT!!!) and that I was basically making a statement on the word "PROVEN" in regards to all glider diets out there. I tried as much as possible using concrete examples of dog diets and ferret diets and we talked extensively about wild gliders and such. I tried my best to present my arguments but I feel perhaps it wasn't heeded very well by Bourbon. She also failed to give me access to specific reports and studies showing that BML was nutritionally equivalent to a wild glider's diet. I was continually asking for references to the studies that were making such generalizations on the efficiency of BML. Several names were mentioned but I feel I was still left with very little concrete proof and a conversation full of what I felt were generalizations and the sporting of knowledge. I told her several times that it was truly an honour to be able to talk with her and that she was taking the time to address my concerns. Anyway, it ended with both of our opinions still standing despite over 2 hours of typing... and her telling me to continue doing research, and her logging off leaving one of my arguments open ended (without even saying bye... perhaps she got tired of debating...LOL).... and one of her final words to me was "If you don't feel the BML diet is good enough, then don't use it."

???

But I do use it. I do feel it's good enough! *pulling out hair*

BML, I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WILL YOU MARRY ME?!!!!!!!

I am close to delirium here. I don't know how else to express how much I am for the BML dietary movement... I was simply questioning the word "proven" whenever people refer to a proven diet.

Anyways, I don't know, anymore... I knew the issue on diet was heated but no one told me it was THIS HEATED! I have never come across anything of this nature before. If I was a little girl I would've cried my eyes out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" />.

Also, Dancing pointed out something crucial to what I'm trying to say:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Sadly the type of study you would like to see happen would require a very large number of gliders in a controled study setting over a long time frame

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This is exactly why I feel the word "PROVEN" should be questioned in regards to the "proven" diets... With dogs, cats, and ferrets, we have been able to observe the effects over multiple generations, over centuries of generations infact! We have the evidence there to say that the premium dog foods out there have similar amounts of specific nutrients in them because they encompass PROVEN diets. The same goes for cats and ferrets. With gliders, we can't say that these diets are truly proven to the same degree that we say dog, cat, and ferret high quality diets are "PROVEN". That was the whole premise of this thread...

NOT TO STIR CONTROVERSY AND BASH BOURBON OR HER BML diet...


Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Mikey, quick question. Is it the use of the term "proven" you are having a problem with? I wonder if "accepted diet" would be more fitting? Accepted as in "Accepted by breeders as being nutritionally beneficial to gliders". I have been wondering now if "proven" might in fact be misleading to others. (although I have to say, BML has proven itself to me atleast for the life span of my gliders)

I am so sorry Mikey feels this way, but I guess in a way it is good, as we know with all research, that once you get an answer to one question it only leaves you with many more, but the same holds true with Mikey, I looked at his thread, which started on one subject only to move on to several others, In the conversation I was trying to address most of what he had posted.

The reason I didn't want him to publish everything that was discussed is simple, those of you that have been around all know that things are taken, twisted to suit anothers needs and often found in some "article" elsewheres.

but since the way he had posted sounds awful (at least to me)

our converstaion started as many others do as to why I use the suppliments I do and the reasons behind them, suggesting as I always do to research on his own to see the differences among them..

his questioning was more along the natural dietary needs, variety and insects, he posted a long thing he had written about the gazillions of species of insects.. I ask him what he had known regarding their variety in the wild. I told him that info was all over the net, I suggested he research them. I suggested he did research on some of the other diets that state that they too incorposrate the natural flora into their feeds.
he seemed to stay on that... I explained "in general" the differences and variables in the gliders we have here vs the ones in the wild,.. he stated he felt uncomfortable with a diet that did not incorporate the natural items found in the wild,
I ask him if he was asking as a general (everyones glider) or for himself, if for himself, that I would give him a link that would help him, to work on a wild diet for his glider.

he said general

Although a lot of the converstaion was geared towards a company creating a marketable diet that utilized the natural flora.
Through that segment (longer than the others) I told him several times if he wasn't comfortable using the BML, to check into Briskys, exotic nutrition and and the pet glider diet. As they all claim to incorporate euchalyptus, and or acacia. I stopped the converstaion as I seen where it was going to turn into a wild vs captive discussion,

I explained many times that nutritionally the BML was balanced for as much was known about them

I tried to discuss the medical aspects, as well as where and how the BML originated. that basically went no where. I suggested to him to contact the zoos in australia, and here, since he said that maybe the zoos would come up with a marketable product for what thay use.. again I suggested researching the various zoos. I also told him Dr derenfeld was working on something.

he said someone needs to find out what species of euchlyptus and acacia, bugs etc, they eat in the wild. I told him it has already been done,

he said he found the article (by name) and I told him it was the one ian hume had written and I also gave him a.p. smiths name for a refernce of yet more information. I also told him to search in the best of the board for the user name Pockets, I told him he would find more info there than any place else regarding gliders in the wild.

So I guess I was wrong and I stand corrected, but would do the same thing again. I believe that if someone wants answers , then they will have to research themselves till they find what they are truley looking for. I gave him numberous resources, to continue with his research.

I never thought he was bashing the BML, nor was I pushing it in his direction, merely trying to explain each aspect so he clearly understood...

he was looking at the wheel, I was explaining the spokes.. trying to explain all the variables that we all had to deal with as well as what we do have to deal with.


Mikey, you could go far, with this research project, open your mind to all the variables, learn them, figure out where they all fit together.. if we haven't learned anything over the years, it is that the more we learn thee more we find we do not know.. the more we search, the more questions we have.

I won't give you all the answers, but point you in the direction to find some of them on your own, interpet them your own way.

Good luck Mikey, please use those resources, they are all invaluable..

P.S. Mikey, I was looking for a link, when I got back you had said goodnight, you were going off to bed, no need for my responce after that.. but thats okay, I understand..

One other thought -- I don't know if Tom still has copies of the video from the 2002 and 2003 SGGAs, but you would be really fascinated to hear Dr. Dierenfeld talk about nutritional requirements in gliders. It's well worth the money.

Great posts, don't give up! As a newbie I appreciate you all sharing your knowledge, education and expierence. I'm an accountant. I couldn't even begin to know what questions to ask. I appreciate you all taking the risk of asking and answering the hard questions.

I do agree that "accepted" would be a better term to identify the preferred diet plans. I too wondered about the terminology, and how something could be "proven" in what I understand is a very short time of North American domestication.

Keep up the good works! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" />

THANK YOU DANCING!!!!!!! ACCEPTED is the word!!!!!!!! YES! I feel accepted is a better term than PROVEN, because PROVEN is misleading. that was the whole point of this thread, but because this can of worms has been opened I must say that...


I'M RATHER FRUSTRATED WITH THIS WHOLE THING. I'M SOMEWHAT DISAPPOINTED IN SEVERAL WAYS, BUT I AM STILL WILLING TO DEBATE THIS THING OUT... I HOPE THIS POST ISN'T EDITED BECAUSE AGAIN IT PERTAINS TO THE CONEXT OF THIS THREAD AND IT'S A PRESENTATION OF TRUTH... REMAINING CIVIL, OBJECTIVE, AND EXPLANATORY AND NOT CONDESCENDING BY ANY MEANS!

I must say much of what you said Bourbon wasn't what I was saying at all. I believe much of the problem with our conversation lastnight was you weren't giving me time to completely type my ideas. I almost feel like this forum is a better way to communicate with you without you trying to cut in when I'm typing something because you were continually trying to steer my in a particular direction everytime I was simply trying to explain my standpoint lastnight. I was met numerous times with comments like:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Ok, forget that right now...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> or </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
the questions will answer themselves as we go along

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> or </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
...get back off the wheel back to the spokes

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Anyway, I found that the best way to communicate with you was if I stared down at the keyboard while I was typing so that I wouldn't see what you were writing while I was doing so. You would continually interrupt when I'd say things and I found that VERY frustrating...

Certain things like,

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I suggested to him to contact the zoos in australia, and here, since he said that maybe the zoos would come up with a marketable product for what thay use..

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I never said that! I said the zoos COULD come up with a marketable product. There's a difference, here. See, it's one of the points that you didn't understand. I have the conversation saved to prove it, too! From the million PM's an hour that you were sending my way while I was trying to explain, I understood that you were saying that zoos in Australia incorporate natural elements from a glider's diet and that they have been doing so for quite some time and that's why I felt perhaps they had the information to be able to give some useful information on creating a marketable diet for gliders here in North America, since you were quick to point out the flaws in some of the particular more naturalistic diets on the market.

Also, when you mentioned about the gazillion of insects species, you aren't stating why I mentioned them. I was talking about nutritional variety, seeing as you felt that BML was designed to only accommodate the use of only four vegetable items (corn, peas, carrots, green beans) and not others. You mentioned that those four veggies were really all you needed to provide a glider with all the nutrients they needed. My concern was the encouragement of a low variety vegetable diet that you were stressing so much lastnight as a part of the BML diet. See, again these are one of the many points that I think you weren't listening to when I was trying to explain myself lastnight on MSN. This was exactly what I had written... Much of which was taken from an article I'd been working on for some time... I also left out all the little comments that you were sending me while I was taking the time to type it out.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Let's go back to the diet of the wild sugar glider for a moment. A sugar glider's diet in the wild actually varies with the seasons. During the winter months, they feed on gum from the eucalyptus and acacia trees, as well as sap and sugar excretions from the trees, and they also feed on sap-sucking insects. During the spring and summer months, however, they are primarily insectivorous, feeding on insects and arthropods. Now, there exist over 1.5 million different documented species of insects in the world and that number is believed by scientists to only represent a miniscule fraction of the total number of insect species that really exist on the planet. Dozens of new species are discovered every day and they make up quite a diverse group of animals; it's interesting to note that about half of all species of animals that man has ever discovered on this planet are insects, and nearly half of those are beetle species alone! Yes, I'll repeat: a quarter of all the species we've ever discovered happen to be species of beetles (belonging to the taxonomic Order Coleoptera)! Throughout the globe, insects are abundant and inhabit nearly all terrestrial and freshwater habitats, utilizing as food nearly all species of plants and many species of animals. Thus, insects are the source of a wide range of nutrients, and make up a great portion of the diets of many animals, including gliders. In light of this fact, it's easy to understand why it is that gliders have been able to thrive problem-free for thousands and thousands of years in the wilds of Australia without the use of Rep Cal with Vitamin D3 "Phosphorus free" or Rep Cal's Herptivite Multivitamin "Vitamin A requirement from Beta Carotene" suppliments. With their specialized diets, each species of insect contains within its gut its own unique set of nutrients/vitamins/minerals, all of which are valuable to the animals that depend and prey on them. Anyway, each insect contains a unique set of vitamins. It's important that we provide variety to cover all the dietary needs. How can you say that that teaspoon of herptivite covers that? That's my issue. How can you say that that teaspoon is equivalent to all the insects that a glider eats throughout the year. How can u say that that whole teaspoon encompasses the vitamins offered by any other veggetable other than the four or five that you just mentioned [corn, peas, carrots, green beans]... lol.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


So you see, to me it was a disscussion on the importance of variety and her entire premise was that she was certain from "studies" that the BML diet was wholesome and contained all the necessary nutrients found in a wild glier's diet. Well, she gave me names of people but did not give me references to such "studies". She never explained to me the details of such "studies" and simply said that "varous studies have shown" that the BML diet is equivalent to the diet of wild gliders. I needed actual facts, not statements, generalizations, or conclusions that have come about from proffessors or people conducting "studies". There has to be a documented version of it somewhere in the standardized scientific method format, outlining the process as to how one would conclude that BML is nutritionally equivalent to the wide variety of items that gliders consume in the wild, not merely some disscussion or thread or even speech from a proffessional. In university, they always stresses the need for scientific documentation when presenting arguments to maintain the validity of any statements, and I needed scientific documentation, which I was not given in lastnight's conversation.

Regarding this:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
he said someone needs to find out what species of euchlyptus and acacia, bugs etc, they eat in the wild. I told him it has already been done,

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


I never said that! I realize that it had been done, and I wasn't saying that it hadn't, at all. The reason I had brought that up was because you were attempting to outline why the other more naturalistic diets were not necessarily good. You mentioned that when asked which species of plant and which part of the plant these companies use, they simply keep it a secret calling it a "company secret", which could be a problem because gliders feed on specific species of certain plants and specific parts of certain plants. I agreed and I was simply mentioning that the scientific evidence was out there, and that companies could perhaps make use of that evidence to create a proper marketable diet. Then you went on to say, "well how would people know that your naturalistic diet contains the correct food items from all the other brands of naturalistic diets out there that may not necessarily contain the correct food items?" And I mentioned that they'd be able to know from scientific proof presented by the company to the customers, and by NOT hiding the science as a "company secret". That's all I was trying to say. You continued off on another tangent at that point.

You were also willing to admit to me that you were unknwoledgeable in the topic of biorhythms which also constituted an important part of my arguement. What frustrated me was that you were begining to say that those kinds of things could not be tested when in reality biorhythms are tested scientific biological fact! Circadian cycles, reproductive cycles, hibernation and metabolic schedules, are all biorhythms that are influenced by things like nutritional shifts. It ended with you going off about a completely unrealted topic saying that our converstaion should get back to the wheel... (I have the conversation saved to prove this) You were quick to mention that scientists attempting to formulate a diet for gliders have only one perspective and that you as well as your team approached the issue of diet from every perspective. But see, as I said last night, that statement right there is yet another generalization with no proof. How can you prove that scientists don't take into consideration other perspectives like the nutritional perspectives, things regarding the pet market like perspectivess on marketability/convenience, medical perspectives, perspectives on the domestic and wild gliders being two rather different physiological organisms...? This is what i mean by generalizing... it's a danger when you're attempting to debate.

Bourbon, I can't state enough how much I truly appreciated lastnight's conversation. For one thing it opened my eyes to several things. First, I realized how heated things really are with the diet situation. Me being a newbie in the glider community, I thought you of all people would be willing to listen to my concerns but much of lastnight's conversation (I have the conversation saved for proof) was you not allowing me to finish my statements and you arguing with me at a tone that I found was at many times quite condescending and bordering on rude. I was hoping for a civil conversation that was open to ideas but it turned into a battle of you trying to cut me off when you felt I was getting places that you didn't like and you sticking in comments in the middle of my comments, resulting in one big mess of ideas with no argumentative flow or succession whatsoever. It was a very inefficient way of communication and debating.

Bourbon, although I've always loved gliders, the fact is I'm a newbie in the glider community! As I mentioned to you lastnight, I was NOT a proffessional by any means, and that my main specialty of interest/area of study was in fact ENTOMOLOGY not mammology, but you still seemed to argue with me asking me things like "ARE YOU AWARE OF WHAT I DO?" "HAVE YOU SEEN A HEALTHY GLIDER'S HEART, LIVER, LUNGS, STOMACH" "WHAT ARE THE SPECIFIC INSECTS IN A GLIDER'S diet"... things that I either didn't have the answers to or things that I obviously were inexperienced in.

This is disturbing to me because I have always been open to contributing to the glider community in any way that I can by presenting ideas and concepts that I as well as a lot of people had, and in doing so lastnight I was met with defense and disgruntled tones. You would have been disqualified if it was a proper debate competition, Bourbon. If everyone in the glider community acted the way you did with me lastnight then i feel it would certainly hinder progress within the glider comminity. I was eager to speak with you because I thought you would shed some light on some concerns and because everyone was recommending that I spoke with you.

I felt that was the problem with our converstaion lastnight, Bourbon. You were not speaking to me as if you were speaking to a newbie. You were speaking to me as if I was some proffesssional who had load and loads of scientific evidence that BML was insufficient when i continually kept stating that I was NOT saying BML wasn't sufficient.

In the groggy state i was in lastnight, my glider missed out on playtime and I missed out on plenty hours of sleep trying to get you to listen to what i had to say, but due to the nature of lastnight's MSN conversation, what should have been a 30 minute civil disscussion on glider diets turned out to be a 2 and half hour battle of confusion, random ideas, and my very desparate attempts for you to listen to me and what I was really trying to say...

If you disagree with anything I have written here I once again have all the documented msn conversation. I'm sure a few of my friends here can testify that I am NOT one to cause controversy on the board and that I am willing to hear out an argument that is methodically explained with its rationale closely dissected in in-depth detail... not simply some random "spokes" of a wheel and mysterious pieces of info thrown my way in hopes that I could figure it out myself...

As I said, now that I'm well rested I can tuly say that my questions and concerns were NOT answeed at all... I will continue to do further research for the good of my glider and the good of the gliders of others and those to come...

Refusing to buckle,

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

well for starts the word should have been could and not would, that was a typo on my part, as was explained in my responce both on MSN as well as on here.

Now as for typing in MSN, as you stated you are fairly new to that sort of program, where you were
getting frustrated with the fact that you couldn't finish... well that is not so. you see in normal conversation there are 2 people talking and each one throws ideas and thoughts, answers during the conversation when points need to be made. and if you haven't noticed in my posts, I try to be sure that people understand exactly what I am talking about as to not.... get them confused.nothing stopped you from continuing... I was reading each word you wrote.. but I was still completing my thought pattern, as you should have done.


so you can cut and paste the answer... your answer to when I asked you how to test the biorythms..

I myself don't see a need in making copies of conversations, for obvious reasons. And this will put a stop to other conversations I have with others.

I spent a lot of time trying to explain to you, what areas, we work in that surrounds the diets. you were not interested in that.. IF you would have allowed me to continue, it would have all come together. I was asking if you had ever seen a healthy liver, kidney and stomach, for the simple reason those too are scientific, and needs to be considered when working with diets in general. NOT just the BML, but all diets. and in the areas we work in, all diets are taken into account.

NOW what I was saying then, just as I say now, and always have, you can NOT create a diet, and NOT be involved with the medical aspects , involved in how the body is physically affected by individual diets. I told you to contact the other diet manufactures and find out from them the extent they have gotten involved with to check the effects of their diets on the body. You use the word scientific, as I explained last night, like it is the scientific community that creates these various commercial diets. there are actually very few commercial diets that is over seen by people in the medical and professional areas as to the effects of the diets.

Another thing you were contantly doing was throwing dogs and ferrets into the game, I don't and won't discuss their commercial diets for many reasons. We are dealing strictly with the Sugar Gliders.

You asked me last night about the life span of the gliders, I asked you then before , in the wild or captivity. I started to tell you about how things were 12 years ago, again you stopped me, So no you never did get those answers... when I said that the australian zoos used an altered form of the ledbeaters diet, for the last 50 years, it was like you had and ephinany.. a light bulb went off and you jumped and said that was all you had to say. NO it isn't.. because as I explained to you, or tried to ... there is a difference between our gliders here and the gliders in the wild, I listed many, many things that are factors in that. I also tried to send you to the thread between Pockets and I, that separated the 2, with a understanding in the end that there is a distict difference between working with the wild diets for your glider and working with a diet for the "general " population of glider owners.


And for those of you who really do want to find out the differences look around at the boards, look at the death data base, look at the endless posts from the days of yesterday.

the average owner keeps their gliders in 18 inch bird cages.. some get 3 hours a week playtime if that at all. they don't have 2.5 acres to forage in, we must supply them with their food. and their living conditions are far more limited than we all would like. however this is a fact, we try, we try to educate more and more owners, trying to steer them in the right direction of humanly caring for the exotic pets , few of them know anything about. the information is brought forward each time something is found out.

Not for noterity, not for fame, not for grants but for the owners here and now.

I didn't list the inadequcies of the other diets, I told you what we know, in fact I told you to pick a commercial diet, any of them and find out as much as you could regarding it. you listed Darcy diet.... it is not a commercial diet, nor do I advocate it as a diet for healthy gliders.
I never said any of them was unhealthy, I did tell you why I don't advocate them, it all had to do with the fact that they won't release information that would be a variable to the healthy of a glider. I told you I can't and won't say they are not healthy, cause I just don't know. Based on the lack of information available.

I also told you everything I said could be found here at GC. The information is out there, you have to find it. I spent many years finding my info, not asking people for their research, but doing it on our own, My team and I have found information that we used to create the bml nutritionally, if you want it, then you too can find it.

Many times I had to tell you that nutritionally we can only match the diets of the wild. that we as general owners do not have access to the natural floras and faunas. and those of us that did, it would be expensive and difficult to find. but also because our gliders are living in totally different environments, that it is not feaseable. You seem to think that the vits and minerals in a variety can not be matched, that is your opinion, the BML is what it is, I don't need to defend it. The numbers have been dissected by many people.

you see something as simple as the amount of insects, and some professionals don't think that insects are a main part of the diet as was earlier though. But more opportunistic when protein levels were low, this I also explained to you.... They also were noted in Ian humes book, through feces, but again... could they have been inadvertaly eaten when the sap was eaten... so many variables to consider.

the problem is the questions you were asking and you even considered yourself a scientist... I was speaking to you as such. IF your questions was that of a newbie, then all the spokes of the wheel really doesn't matter now does it? because someone not interested in the little things (spokes) that make the wheel move smoothly and true, only wants to look at the general picture.

This has been seen many times from people who have wild notions to fix things.. that haven't a clue as to what all is involved.
(not saying you are one of them) as I stated many times last night, yes I was speaking in general terms, to someone that was asking for general information.

I also told you that since those articles by ian humes and a.p. smith(both done in the 80's I think) were written that the glider community has moved mountain in the medical areas, dietary and other areas. you want to give the scientist the credit for that.. no it was each and every owner that stepped forward, had necropsies done, worked on educating their vets, requested testing and looking for new cures and causes to old problems.
It was a team of professionals who have taken an interest in gliders, this is NOT the norm, in spite of what you may think, far too many vets, put gliders down and turn them away from lack of interest, or knowledge. I have a letter from a woman who sent her glider to a lab for a necropsy, or wanted to, and the lab refused it, because they didn't know anything about them.

I didn't say me, I said the glider community.

This community has pulled together to get us as far as we have gotten, not only in the diet areas but the medical areas as well.

I have no problem with someone challanging the BML diet, as long as they work themselves to find answers to their questions first. understanding how everything fits together, how each and every variable may affect the question.. this is why it leaves us with more questions, because nothing is black and white, although there are still a few in the scientific community that still thinks so. with each problem, there is as many variables as possibilities and stars.

what exactly was it you wanted? I asked you that last night?

an answer to what is "proven"

scientific papers? (I gave you resources)

a diet that is marketable that contains some of the natural flora and fauna (I also directed you to those diets and told you to find out more)

a wild diet for our gliders in captivity? (I also directed you to resources)

an answer to why gliders stop eating the BML (I also tried to answer that)

why gliders die misteriously? (that was medical, you were not interested)

When and where the BML was originated and how it came to be. I started to explain that..

you see so your only question wasn't really an only question.. it had forks.. spokes of their own.. but that means that each one also had it's own set of variables to consider.

My dreams and my goals is far fetched and will probably never be accomplished, but it isn't for lack of trying, on my part and on the part of the community as a whole. but it is simple.. To have the perfect diet, to have an illness free population of gliders throughout the world, and to have the vets and testing available to accomplish those goals.

If I ever strike it rich in the lottery, my plans are not to build a huge glider room or house or yard for that matter, but to buy an Island, where the gliders can run free, have their natural room to forage and roam, and have their natural flora and fauna available to them. Have a vet on the island with all necessary testing equipment. and have a place for each rescue to live out their life as GOD intended, not us humans.

You can continue this quest you are on whatever it really may be. But my willingness to help you, has dwindled..

Get medically involved, see what is really going on with our gliders here in the states, look at all variables, figure out a way to stop the insanity.

Nothing is black and white, and if that is what you expected from me, then you haven't read too many of my posts on any of these subjects. there is only an infinite shade of gray...

a good example of this is the eggs causing high cholesteral.... for many many years the scientific community, touted it, had proof to back them up... and a few years ago it was recanted by the american heart association... deeming the little variables that was considered by mostunimportant, was actually vitally important... it wasn't the eggs, but how the eggs were cooked.


We all want the world to be ideal...fact is ,... it isn't.. it is flawed... The amount of money required for extensive in depth studies, the availability of testing equipment and the experience and knowledge of the labs, all work together...

again I say... good luck with your quest Mikey, what ever it may be. again, utilize the resources I gave you, and put that great mind of your to work, maybe someday, you will come up with a solution to a problem in any way you see fit. Hopefully it too will benifit the gliders here in the states in captivity as a whole and not just a few.

This has got to be one of the most learning threads that have been opened to date. So what I am going to have to ask is that we get back on the topic on diets and any and all inputs are more than welcome as long as we do not make this a personal issue. As it is not. This is about gliders and how we can improve things.

So what say you? Lets all get back on the same side of the track and continue on the right way as it was going before.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I spent many years finding my info, not asking people for their research, but doing it on our own, My team and I have found information that we used to create the bml nutritionally, if you want it, then you too can find it.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Hey Bourbon, just a quick question. As a person interested in creating a better glider diet, I have had to rearrange and adjust my glider diet and throughout the course of it's use, it has been changed, and proportions have been adjusted. What kind of roadblocks did you encounter during the develoment of BML? I for instance had to cut down on the pollen because my gliders got more yellowed. I was just thinking to myself that BML probably had some earlier "incarnations" and I was just curious to know what kind of processes and activities went into it's creation and what your initial nutritional goals were when you created it. You also mentioned that you are still pursuing the "perfect diet" In what aspects are you looking to improve BML and can we expect any modifications to be made to it in the future or will it stay the same? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

At this point, I'd like to thank Bourbon for being civil about the issue. This morning I had a very nice talk on the phone with Ellen, one of the owners of GC and it certainly shed some light on the situation.

For one thing, the thing that struck me was how much we really don't know about gliders, or atleast have not studied. I think I was assuming that with gliders becoming widespread pets, that there would be innumerable studies on them, including aspects regarding the medical, nutritional, behavioural, etc. The fact is however, the first set of glider immigrants only got here in North America in the late 80's! This to me was astonishing, because I had thought that perhaps it might have been much longer than that. In light of this fact it's easy to understand why no one (except the project GliderCentral has started) has done an in-depth scientific study on glider nutrition/diets in the United States, and only one other in Canada.

I was brought aback at how we really don't know about a lot of things, and how though we (the glider community) has moved mountains over the two and a half decades of glider husbandry trial and error, many things are still up in the air. Nothing then can stop anyone involved in the glider community from making break through discoveries, which is why websites like this are even more crucial. It allows glider owners everywhere to communicate findings, opinions, ideas, studies, results, failures, etc.

I'd like to conclude then that orginally, I had thought that I was perhaps crossing a line and pushing the envelope by choosing a diet like BML to scrutinize (which I wasn't really scrutinizing, only evaluating its true credibility), but now I am confident that at any moment there may be a new diet that may come along that can also prove its worth, and perhaps more, thus potentially making the BML diet yet another peice of human-glider history. One person Ellen mentioned was creating a type of gum that could be painted on the branches of the cage, so the gliders can consume it that way. I think ideas like this are great and she was assuring me that many more ideas were to come... I just had to be patient! I also urge evreyone out there with gliders not to be intimidated by anyone at this point, because we are still the begining stages of this thing that literally anyone, vet, science professor, wild life enthusiast, hobbyist, glider owner, student, parent, policeman, vendor at McDonalds... anyone can research on these animals on any level and still have the potential to provide useful information to the entire glider community. I urge everyone out there to ask questions and to do the research and to NOT be afraid to share your ideas and findings and to explore. Conrtibute to the glider movement; each person on this board is intrinsically part of this glider community, just as much as anyone else is. I feel one of the best ways to do so is to support those already doing projects that have access to the proper materials and gliders and facilities by providing the funding that they need... it's too bad I wasn't around when GC was having their research project launched because I would have been more than willing to help with that cause.

Anyway, the truth is out there and we've learned a lot but the truth is, the greater bulk of it is still up in the air, and many are scrambling to find it while we are producing populations of these marsupials in our homes, and with proper research anyone can help towards that movement for truth.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Fact is a lot more is proven about glider diets than you may expect. Although the so called scientific research may not have been done by a group of scientiest many of us have been careing for gliders for many years. As Bourbon stated in the infancy of gliders being introduced into this country there were a lot of unexplained deaths. Pioneers in the study of captive glider diets have learned a lot through the years. Through the process of trial and error we have learned what works best for captive gliders. This may not sound very scientific but the truth is that when you discover that your gliders are living longer and you have eliminated many illnesses by eliminating certain things and adding others you have made great strides. As was stated 'the truth is out there'. We are living in the truth with the BML diet. Sure it may need to be tweaked a little in the future. But at this time it is the only truly 'proven diet' in existence simply because of its track record.

Any idea or theory can be challenged and torn apart with enough effort. It is sensless to challenge a diet that has saved the lives of as many glider as the BML has. If anyone has researched and come up with a more suitable diet then publish it for the glider community to use. But it is wrong to continually try to discredit the only really good diet we have for the captive glider. If we have something constructive to say about a diet that is one thing but to try and discredit a long standing diet with a lot of trick questions is not a good thing. If a person wishes to start nit picking glider diets there are several out there that need to be looked at other than the BML.
Charlie H

With all due respect Charlie (and I do hope that you and Mary know how much I respect you both), I do not think anyone is trying to discredit the BML diet, but to try to understand it, the origination of it, and the ups and downs that it has taken over the years.
I believe this thread is trying to bring everyone together not only to understand the BML diet but the others out there as well.
As many of us have said before and you, I am sure agree, no matter how good a diet is and no matter how many sick gliders it has brought back from near death (and there have been numerous just since I have been around)it isnt going to do a glider much good if they dont eat it.
So I think if the community as a whole can come together as a team and share all information whether it be good or bad and be able to produce more than one diet plan, all that will do is benefit the gliders that are out there.
Will it take a long time, yes it will, Bourbon can agree with me on that one I am sure, for she has put in many hours on the BML plan. Do I think it is the only good diet out there for our gliders? To me that has yet to be proven. I mean look at Lord Darcy, he was almost dead from what I understand and was brought back around with the ensure diet.
Then there are others that believe the pet pro diet is as close to the BML diet plan as one can get.

I personally just dont think there is enough information out there in general for ANY (including BML)of the diets to be spoken of as being the best and it not just being a matter of personal choice or preference.

Once again, I do hope that we can all remain civil to each other and pull together to share ideas, thoughts, prospects, findings from research or conversations with those that can benefit a good research team.

If only we used our efforts in finding ways to come up with the funds for the research instead of saying who has the best diet, I think the gliders would benefit the most.

I keep seeing the Pet Pro diet mentioned. I have yet to see this one... does anyone have a link?

www.pet-pro.com the owners name is Jim very nice nice man. Will answer any and all questions you have. His wife (I can never remember her name) always answers the phone.
He will also send you out a free sample to try. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
As I stated before,it is a hard pelleted food, so it does need to be soaked before given to the gliders.

I've gotten 2 gliders that were being fed Happy Glider (Pet Pro) when I got them. Both were on the breed formula and very healthy. The breeder I got them from recommends soaking it in unsweetened apple sauce...

Well said Srlb! I was not trying to discredit BML... only trying to understand the nature of it... it goes no further than that. I was not trying to ask trick questions or whatever it was that you mentioned, Charlie... Throughout this thread I have only asked fair and ligitimate questions, placing on the table some of what I felt were completely relevant issues (including the scientific factor of "biorhythms" which, to my surprise, has not yet ever been talked about in these glider forums! It's a biological principle that is so basic to all organisms). I feel I shouldn't be persecuted for asking questions and that has not yet happened and I intend it to never happen. I understand why people can get upset when they are confronted about a program that has worked for them and that perhaps they have contributed to but it's only normal... there will be many more like me, questioning and analyzing and even challenging... Although much of the frustration also stems from the many gliders that have been on the suffering end of th diet issue, I still feel etiquette is critical in any integrated body of people seeking a common goal. Those followers of BML or any diet for that matter should be secure enough in their conviction for the diet that they don't need to be disgruntled or feel offended or have to get excessively defensive... the diet should simply speak for itself if it is the ultimate diet. Thank you all for contributing to this thread. I've learned a lot and thank you for those who have shown support! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />I would like to say congratulations to all for not making this 'a diet war'. Perhaps we all have learned to have civil postings regarding issues we are all researching for the ultimate betterment of taking the highest quality of care for our sweet gliders. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
I would also like to state off the record that I do forgive those who have made myself and others here feel uncomfortable. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Hopefully this can be a new start that all opinions and ideas can openly be discussed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> without being worried that we will be thrashed.
Also I want to thank all of you whom have privately made your positive comments known and thank_you to the ones who have opened up topics that needed to be open. Maybe I'll stay around for awhile just not as much. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />
I <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> to <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />.

Interesting topic. . I can say that after 8 years of owning, breeding and rescuing gliders, I have NEVER seen a diet do for the health of my gliders what the BML diet has done. Rescues come in stressed, BML sets their bodies up to fight against disease because it meets all the nutritional needs. Other diets, and I have TRIED THEM ALL--do not do this. Recently, I took in some rescues that were in very bad shape--they had been off BML for over 6 months. They ATTACKED the bowl that had their first nights food in it. I have had them now two weeks, coats are in much better shape, their energy is up and they are eating normally.

I would like to comment on the variety issue. For years, I went for more variety and realized that they were not eating over half of what I was feeding. Further study showed that the fruits I was feeding were not only high in citric acid but threw off the balance of Ca:P--which is dangerous.

As for seeing healthy and unhealthy organs, I have seen both, I have sat in on necropsies and done them myself with the supervision of my vet (who is also my father). Many of the vitamins that are on the market are high in Vit A--of which the excess is stored in the liver. One glider came to me hours after death. The owner had changed the vitamins to ones other than stated in the BML diet. When we opened her up (not to be gross) her liver was spotted and more than half the size of her body! This was a 4 month old glider. The owners had stopped making the BML because they heard somewhere that reptile vitamins were not the best thing for gliders.

I think the proof is in the pudding--I have seen and rescued gliders that were off the BML and would NOT have survived if not moved to the BML diet.

As for Pet-Pro, Jim developed this food as a supplemental diet to be fed in conjuntion with FRUITS and VEGGIES and PROTIENS--it is on the package.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I think the proof is in the pudding--I have seen and rescued gliders that were off the BML and would NOT have survived if not moved to the BML diet.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


I agree with you Mere, the proof is in the pudding. And you have seen and dealt with many a glider for sure. (She has a glider room to die for <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) However, one thing if I may, you stated they would NOT have survived if they had NOT been placed on the BML diet. (please dont take this wrong)but for such a statement to be made, I would have to ask, how does one know for sure? Once again, I think this is just a personal opinion for they werent given any other diet to judge this against. Or if I am wrong, you know I love to be proven wrong. It helps to get the point across <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I am sure that Saharanfox could say the same thing about Darcy and if he was put on anything other than the ensure he would have died....

Secondly, I do have a question about this
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
As for Pet-Pro, Jim developed this food as a supplemental diet to be fed in conjuntion with FRUITS and VEGGIES and PROTIENS--it is on the package.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
yes, you do have to add proteins to it, however, most people add some protein even if feeding BML even though it is NOT required or called for. Its just the fact they do. I know, as I am one of them. My babies love scrambled eggs, so what, I am supposed to tell them no you cant have any because you have BML? Also, you know yourself, that I had fed this for a long time. We discussed it after I noticed you were feeding it to your room full. Not to mention it is nice to have some around just in case you run out of supplies for your main diet you feed and it is too late to go to the store.
But this diet also should be checked into throughly, as should all others out there. And one day hopefully, that will be able to happen.

I guess what I am trying to say, is Pepper and Bear have probably eaten BML MAYBE a total of two weeks their entire lives so far, they just refuse to eat it, yet they are super healthy, have a very healthy joey and they dont smell. (always a plus!!) So it goes back to saying that whether it be BML, Darcy diet, Suncoast or any of the many others out there, if you feed them, and you get good results, than stick with it, but nobody has enough evidence in the research dept. to say which one is the best and/or if there isnt anything else out there.
So we must at some point keep an open mind and look around and continue studying, researching, watching our babies...until one day, there is as much known about them as the next household pet.

Funnily enough, Peggy, when I wrote they would not have survived--in the back of my head a voice said "Prove it!" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I guess my point was is that I have seen heavily stressed gliders respond to bml better than the other diets I have tried. It is the only diet these stressed gliders have responded to. I have 2 healthy gliders that wouldn't eat it for a while, they didn't crash, but when I got them back on it, I did see improvement. Food for thought. . .

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And recorded cases like this is EXACTLY the types of things that one could use in a good diet study! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Mere.

Peggy you know I love you.... I understand the hard time you have had to get your gliders to eat any diet plan.. I also understand why you are feeding the DD...

for the record, and only for that purpose... I must say however that using lord darcy as an example against healthy gliders is not approriate.. you see lord darcy has lymphoma, the diet plan that was originally set up for him, was to help him live, that is something NO ONE will argue with. the ensure has been used for many years, but not with healthy gliders, Donna's vet placed Lord darcy on it, and she put the rest of her gliders on it. again I will not say whether this is healthy or not for gliders without special problems. That is something only time will tell, I am and have been in a wait and see mode with this, only because in the studies for humans, that it has not been fully tested on healthy individuals.

We have used the ensure for failure to thrive gliders and gliders that could not maintain a regular diet, NOT picky eaters, but gliders with health problems for short periods of time. As Donna (and I love her to death) has encountered one of the problems is excessive weight gain, she is still trying to work around that.

This is a diet although I do not advocate, I have seen some gliders that haven't taken to other plans that will take to it. It still doesn't mean we know enough to advocate it for healthy gliders..

but as long as people understand the risks involved, and understand this is just in a trial stage, then by all means... but please Lord Darcy is a glider the diet was designed for (ill, terminally ill, and failure to thrive gliders)

I have no problem with people using other diets, as long as they understand the diet they are using.

Big Ern, I have to say your q's will be answered each and every one of them..

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Hey Bourbon, just a quick question. As a person interested in creating a better glider diet, I have had to rearrange and adjust my glider diet and throughout the course of it's use, it has been changed, and proportions have been adjusted. What kind of roadblocks did you encounter during the develoment of BML? I for instance had to cut down on the pollen because my gliders got more yellowed. I was just thinking to myself that BML probably had some earlier "incarnations" and I was just curious to know what kind of processes and activities went into it's creation and what your initial nutritional goals were when you created it. You also mentioned that you are still pursuing the "perfect diet" In what aspects are you looking to improve BML and can we expect any modifications to be made to it in the future or will it stay the same?


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

the first being..
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
What kind of roadblocks did you encounter during the develoment of BML? I for instance had to cut down on the pollen because my gliders got more yellowed.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I was asked to help with the diets when there was a problem in finding a diet from australia or new guinea, the first diet made available to use came from a scholar that was in australia at the time and sent to Ruth, where that diet plan was modified to ingredients that were commonly found here in the states.. That diet included baby chicks.., chicken bones etc.. But it was all we had, prior to that, catfood and birdseed was feed of choice.. We had a very bad time then with HLP, it was running rampant among gliders, so every website warned of it, there was suppliments added.. the first of the bml was first created based on the nutritional value of the taronga zoo diet as well as the diets in the wild and several other diets. Utilizing the the information aquired, we then worked on a diet for our gliders in captivity.. taking many things into consideration, cage size, feeding, seasonal changes that were no longer.. as well as many other factors, HLP being of main concern at that time. far too many gliders were dying.after speaking with some people in the australian schools (colleges) reading Ian Humes, book, and reading A.P. Smiths ... we corrolated a set of ranges that were within their spec of safe.. this was not for all (vits, and minerals) but for most, for as many as we could find... we collaborated a team that worked very hard on finding the nutritional values for saps, insects, flowers, gums etc.. that was part of their main foraging. comparing it with the Ledbeaters diet, and taking the values from there. we started to go to work on creating the BML.. one of the roadblocks we encountered was simple, we could not duplicate the taronga zoo diet. not the average person anyway here in the states, the protein levels were different.. etc..we didn't have access to the natural floras and faunas. pawpaws etc... so we used the ledbeaters mix as a starting point. It originally was developed by a gentleman by the name of Des Hackett, it was the first diet to keep the ledbeaters possum alive in captivity.. well for starts we didn't have ledbeaters possums, but we did have possums, and since at the time almost all the zoos and sanctuaries there was using it, we figured it would give us a good starting point. We added the calcium suppliments, and the yogurt juice, added a jar of chicken baby food, and we were off. but that was only a start.. at that point we were balanced with their dietary needs there. but the gliders here (not just on BML but all diets) was still having other problems.. we(not me, but members of the team) had noticed in the necropsies, that for some reason we were lacking the regeneration of the cells..

In the days of yesterday, a broken leg was amputated, an injury would take months to heal, and hair forever to grow back, cases of HLP took 6 months or more to show calcification of the bones. When you and I get a small tinge of food poisoning, we throw up, and our livers regenerate, we were not seeing any regeneration with the cells, from ANY diet.. at this time most of the diets were supposedly all based on their wild dietary needs. So that means the diets we had developed all were sustaining, but wasn't regenerating..

Now before I go on... I must say that in Australia there was a rule there ... that if the gliders were ill or injured they would be put down, there was little to no knowledge regarding medical treatment, in fact they hated the US , because they thought we had illegally exported the gliders from there. Through many, many contacts, we convinced them, that they were here, we were only trying to keep them alive..

Our team in Australia at the time included several veternarians and instructors regarding their species. There was very little actually known in Australia at the time, In fact I have an email from the dept of Australian wildlife, commending our team on the in depth research we were doing, that we knew more about the gliders than they did.

So basically from that point on we were on our own... when asked about various illness and injuries, they had no knowldge of them as a sick or ill glider was disposed of because of fear of contamination and messing up the eco system.
This was in the early 90's

SOO>>>>> I have to say some of our biggest road blocks was information, and finding it... as well as working the medical side regarding testing, equipment etc... making sure the diet wasn't causing damage to the organs, etc.. One of our main concerns at the time was the calcium levels as well as the cell regeneration..

Dr Ross was an important factor in much of our research as well as others that have worked with him and our team.

Another roadblock as you know was money, Money that was used for various testing etc..

Dr Ross had accumulated and worked with us, slicing and diceing skin and organ tissues.
He was a very important member of the team as well as a great friend and confidant. His scientific knowledge has helped us many times over with interpetating and evaluating various tests, reports , slides and samples.

It is from him, I have learned the most, .. variables, variables and more variables. as well as the more we learn, the more we find we do not know.
He always makes me look outside of the box, look at every spoke of that wheel before you look at the wheel.
why fix something that isn't broke.. etc...

We were researching adding the herptivite when a glider by the name of Nero was addresses to us, nero was a rescue with HLP and he had no density in his bones, his femar was broken with a 2 mm gap between it.. (his story is at the real stories site) it will make for some interesting reading...

the bottom line was in less than 5 weeks we had calcification of the bone, and cell regeneration.

we are not sure exactly why this combination works, but we know it does, and we see hair growth back in short periods of time, as well as injuries healing, meaning we have the cell regeneration..


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
You also mentioned that you are still pursuing the "perfect diet" In what aspects are you looking to improve BML and can we expect any modifications to be made to it in the future or will it stay the same?


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

The BML has become his baby as well as mine, and when solid research warrants a change in the BML, we will change it,. We would be pompus to say it is the perfect diet, We all know it is in the infancy stages, We have it balanced for the wild, and we have it balanced for as much as we know about gliders in captivity. But we also know that more research is needed... we may never know as a whole what the gliders here in the states in captivity really need., what we do know, is that you must look outside of the box, and see more than just the coat, or just the energy, and the apparant healthiness of your glider.

If you are serious about creating a new diet, let people know, don't push it on others without them knowing it is still in the testing areas, but most importantly, be involved in the medical aspects.. that is so vitally important, be aware of what your diet is doing and how it is affecting other gliders lives, organs. etc...

The days of yesterday variety was an issue (more for us than them, but in the process we also must look at what changes are being made to the nutritional value as well as how the nutrients are working together ...

Example.. of vit c aids in the absorbtion of iron, excessive iron is stored in the liver... hence liver disease is possible if fed the wrong veggies with certain plans..

how saturatated fats are metabolized by the gliders if at all etc...

just cause the glider eats it, doesn't mean it is healthy...I highly suggest you go deep , deep into the medical as well as behavioral..

Big Ern, I really do hope that someday there is another diet plan I can suggest that I KNOW is healthy...at the minimum as healthy as the BML is...

I hope I have answered your q's...

Bourbon, I so agree with you, and really, really wish my guys would eat the BML (Maybe you could help at the SGGA??) I have 2 generations of extremely healthy gliders on Darcy's-the only problem I have with it, is that they're a bit, how shall I say, chunky? Of all the diets I have looked into, BML and Darcy's I feel are the most complete to a glider's needs. I forcefed Riker BML for almost 6 weeks (he came to me with bad HLP, and was at death's door for nearly 2 weeks). It truly brought him back from the brink I COULD NOT get him to willingly eat it on his own, however, so to avoid forcefeeding him permanently, tried Darcy's. My guys will NOT eat Zookeepers, Exotic Nutrition, or Pricilla's (because the instant I sprinkle vitamins on anything, they won't touch it! And I've tried Herptivite, Glider Booster, and Vionate). A diet won't do them any good if they won't eat it, though. So for now I'm stuck with what they Will eat. Bourbon has gone over with me in depth how the BML was developed, and I do not disagree in any way. In fact, I'm sure my guys would be as healthy, and not as generously endowed in the weight department. Sure, we're all still learning, and I hope this thread helps further that learning. Maybe we'll discover something that needs a bit of change, and maybe not yet. As long as the welfare and health of gliders is first and foremost in any undertaking regarding diets, I think it's a worthwhile pursuit.
And yes, THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE. But like with Autism and Self Mutilators, it's going to take a lot of work, and a lot of very dedicated individuals time to get at it, as much as we might wish otherwise. So far, I have enjoyed following everyones opinions, whether I agree or not. There is something to be learned in looking at things from all points of view, also, even if it only sparks a thought that might turn into something down the road.