Alkalinity/acidity needs to be tested for-color won't indicate. Think of a pool guy with his little kit. The higher the number...the more alkaline the solution (scale of 1-10, I think)...the lower the number, the more acidic. In the middle range is neutral PH (but I can't remember which numbers offhand).

IF the tomato is what is having any effect...my guess would be citric acid. Be cautious without a vet's collaboration, tho-you don't want to hide a symptom, and the problem still be there. I'm sure if I'm off here...someone will correct me. HTH

Thank you Jen...always full of answers as usual! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

Acidity/alkalinity is measured by the logarithm of hydrogen ion "H" (which is acid). The scale is pH, ranging from 0 - 14. Neutral is 7, which is where a glass of water would fall.

The kidney (and lung) help regulate pH - the kidney by eliminating acid or base (alkaline environments) depending on the situation. The kidney needs to conserve water so one doesn't pee oneself to death, so it resorbs water from the filtrate. It also has to eliminate materials of low solubility. In the face of dehydration, the need to hold water in the body (and out of urine) while needing to excrete calcium, or phosphates, or oxalates, or uric acid in the urine is a delicate balance leading to very concentrated amounts of particles. They often precipitate out and form crystals, and sometimes crystals aggregate to form stones.

Luckily there are inhibitors to crystal/stone formation. But the inhibitor systems can become overwhelmed. Excessive amounts of insoluble particle or low urine volume (from dehydration) can lead to increasing crystal formation and possibly stone formation. Crystals by themselves are not uncomfortable to pee out - not like peeing barbed wire or anything. Stones can be ugly. A sick critter that often is accompanied by dehydration has a risk.

Uric acid crystals form in acidic environments. Struvite (magnesium ammonium phosphate) stones form in alkaline environments. A struvite stone about has to be created during a UTI - can't get there without the "help." Often the bug is Proteus. Proteus likes an environment with impaired drainage, or chronic antibiotic treatment changing flora and allowing it to predominate.

Calcium carbonate in the diet doesn't get absorbed as calcium carbonate, circulate in the blood as calcium carbonate, then leave through the kidneys and bladder as calcium carbonate leading to stones. It doesn't work that way. The insoluble materials that hook up in the urine and crystallize or build stones are made there as reactions occur in various environments such as acidity (pH), hydration status, and germ presence. The idea that calcium obtained via shells vs. "reptile calcium" (a real loser of a concept - a lizard on the picture means bad for a glider ???) vs. other sources is more likely to lead to stones just because of origin is just plain screwy. Ionized calcium in the blood is just that: Ca++ ion bound to an anion.

More later.

Jen I agree, we have been working with a glider who also had crystals in the urine, the vet also stated the same thing you did, that we need to start adressing the issues of what people are feeding along with the diets,

Charlie and I has discussed this to a large extent, we both agree that the over supplimentation, as well as the extra foods that are being fed could also be an issue. in the case of this other glider it was the addition of the cranapple juice that made the diet become unbalanced in the ph, which in essence also causes the crystals, without rehashing again what already has been said.

the problems come in not so much with the calcium , but people not following the diet the way it is intended. by adding things like cranberry juice to a diet to prevent uti's, it actually causes a reverse problem of creating the crystals as well.

everyone is jumping on the calcium issues, and wanting to change what already works. but try, and I mean really try instead to encourage people to not modify the diets, to not changing fruits and veggies around, to not add extra supplimentation..

I have heard them all, from adding all acidic fruits to only veggies and fruits that are high in calcium, to adding neocalglucon, to changing from the rep-cal to the citrate.. all of these things increase the calcium intake, and cause crystals.

this is not a single problem, with a single cure. this a a huge problem amoung many owners.and they are being told it is okay to do it. that is wrong.. work with the existing problems first, stop the people from over supplimenting, adding and changing things around, then and only then will anyone get a real picture of what is really the problem. when the BML was developed and worked on a long time a go, we didn't have the boards encouraging people to change and over suppliment.

feed a diet as directed. the diet scares are out there, but if everyone wished to really help, then look at the whole picture. start from the basics, test gliders that were on the basics, no modifications. then and only then can you get a clearer picture over time.

No offense to anyone, because it's clear that you all know what you're talking about (and my head hurts with all the biology) but it's not as simple as saying "stick to the diet"...I feed the BML but it says to have a mix of veggies and fruit...great! Now which ones? There's a great list of what not to feed gliders, but it probably isn't complete, and fairly new owners like me can get confused and worried that we'll feed the wrong thing and get our babies sick.

I don't mean to sound snappy and mean when I say this but it's hard to indicate tone on a forum. Just saying "stick to the diet" doesn't help if sticking to the diet has been causing some trouble with other gliders. Maybe that does suggest there needs to be changes, even if only for those gliders that have these issues.

I feed the BML and have for years. We buy mixed frozen veggies without the lima beans. There is corn, peas, sting beans and carrots in the bag and I usually buy a small bag of either sting beans or peas to off set the amout of corn in the mixture. Then I put it all in a tupperware container and keep it frozen until I need it. I very seldom give any other veggies.

Fruit: melons, apples,grapes (I take out the seeds) pears, frozen pitted red cherries and blueberries. Those are the ones my kids like and sometimes I buy frozen mixed fruit. Mine won't eat bannans but alot like them.

I stick to the BML without exceptions. I don't feed bugs

I am in the process of revamping the BML page to be very very specific, and many people will not like the changes placed on the page, but it is for just those reasons that I feel the page needs to be updated. the more we learn, the more we see, the tighter we have to be with the diets.

there is info out there, and we have tried very hard to give people guidelines regarding the diets, I have even approved things in the past that I no longer approve, and the more we learn, then we too must be flexable enough to change for the betterment of our gliders.

the most obvious place to start in improvements, is first going back to where the diet was first tested, using which fruits and veggies, which ingredients, then start there. if it wasn't broke then, and now it is, then it must be things we are doing, not the diet plan, but us as owners.

I have made posts in the past about the sweet potatoes, and other fruits and veggies that help the body absorb more iron, and it was in light of a lot of gliders getting liver disease,

although I know there are various reasons and causes for liver disease, I had to first get down to basics so I can ascertain whether or not it was the diet itself, or the things we were adding to the diet

while researching more and more on the added extras that some of these people were feeding I was seeing common grounds. so I no longer advocate those certain fruits and veggies for use in or with the BML diet plan.

no one can say there is a definitive cause for anything, clearing one problem up doesn't mean it will all stop, but it will help a lot, so that is the best we can do. again by going to the basics, not only with the bml but other diets as well, we can start to find the real problems in the diets. until then, we are all playing in the dark.

You can not get involved with the diets and structure enough to pull only 1 problem out, without changing many other things in the process, and w surely can not close our eyes to the other things that could be contributing factors to it.

I had a truck once that felt as if the whole front end was falling apart, many people felt it, they all had their own, interpetation of what was wrong without getting in and looking at the mechanics of it.a month later we had a frontend shop take a look at it. it wasn't something there already that was broke, but something that was later added... my husband had run through some mud, and it was dried on the inside of the tire. causing the same symptoms that could have been something drastic wrong with the mechanical parts. If I would have replced some of the parts, it would not have fixed the problem, and in essence would have been a serious finacial burden to us.

many of the diets have a baseline, a basic feeding setup. and in order to maintain a balance in the diet, the basics need to be followed. any change in those basics, throws the ratios off, the balance off, and the nutrients out of whack.

you asked.. what fruits, what veggies..

apples, grapes, watermellon, cantalope, melon, the frozen cherries and blueberries.

corn, peas, carrots and green beans.

on the bml page when i actuyally specified.. i specified the
corn, peas, carrots and green beans
apples, grapes, watermellon, and cantalope

I buy the frozen pitted dark red sweet cherries. One per glide and I cut it in half. That's their favorite.

OK Bourbon has corrected me LOL...in my post above I meant to say green beans, not string beans. But where I'm form they are the same. Happy now B????????????LOL

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, I'm confused about the Sweet Potatoes. Are you saying they are okay or NOT okay to give our suggies? Mine LOVE their sweety taters! LOL (I cook them fresh with nothing added and remove the skins)

here is part of a post I made back in 2004, it was a fear then, and moreso now, as we start seeing what people are feeding, the foods seem harmless in themselves, but for our gliders, what we are seeing may very well be posing a problem.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
something else I may wish to add to the list of things not to feed. Due to the higher incidences of liver problems, and the fears of iron toxicity in the liver, please, please everyone note, that feeding the extras that are high in Iron may also pose a problem, more directed to those that are free feeding and offering a wide variety of veggies and fruits.

oranges, orange juice, vit C helps the body absorb iron, okay and are you ready for this, potatoes and sweet potatoes are a leading souce of Vit C also strawberries, bell peppers, kiwi, tomatoes, broccoli, califlower and cabbage also contain vit c

spinich, collard greens, kale, peanut butter etc.. already are high in iron

Being careful not to add additional protein to already balanced diet plans.
liver, poulry, fish, egg etc..

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

as you see these are commonly fed, but not so commonly that people are having issues. but keep in mind, not everyone is honest in what they feed their glider and most importantly how often.

that list is foods "I FEEL" could be a contributing factor to liver issues. Especially if they are feeding the bml.

what we see more and more, and searching between the real stories and past posts, reveal a lot.

we see that people are feeding these items but not only a single item, but making changes as well.. example..

when someone says something about corn being too high in phosphorus, some will stop feeding the corn and peas. and start offering spinich and kale. the higher calcium foods. then they feed the sweet potatoes. wait where does this cause an issue? simple. spinich and kale not only is high in calcium, but also higher in iron, as well as protein. then feeding the sweet potatoes on top of that causes the system to absorb more iron into the system.. in essence increasing the iron levels now an exuberant amount. The gliders systems are not setup to handle that extra overload of iron. hence it gets stored in the liver. In essence causing the system to go into an overload.

also seeing that sweet potatoes is also high in vit C , you also change the ph/alk levels in the system.

these are not issues that show up right away, but that show up over time, and by switching things around, offerting far too much variety there is a lot of complicated things going on with the gliders bodies. It is very very hard to go back and retrace everything that you feed, how much and how often. Which is why it is very important when you do find a good diet (which ever one it may be) to stick to it. keep it basic, keep it simple. it is a lot easier to determine whether it is the diet itself or if there is something seriously wrong. (please note: liver disease can be caused by MANY MANY things), but if these items can be considered contributing factors.. then why do it?

(I am trying very hard not to get to technical here. That is not due to ignorance, but trying to explain so others understand the general concepts.) So.. my apologies to the techies.. no offense intended.

I also want to add that when i say once n a while, i mean once in a few months, to give as a treat is fine, but like i said how often, and how much is the key facors here.

Thanks for the diet update. Charlie and Bourbon make a good point about the extreme importance of a good and balanced diet in the mix. Charlie's point about not over-supplementing is a good one.

One other thought - the amount of calcium that needs to be excreted in the urine is not the entire amount eaten. The intestine has the ability to decrease or increase the amount of calcium absorbed depending on adequacy of calcium stores. The intestine also has the ability to excrete calcium itself, so not all ingested calcium above bodily needs ends up as urine calcium and at risk of becoming urine crystals.

This point is not to take anything away from the diet advice above, but to note that there is some ability for the animal's systems to deal with our inadequacy to both know and deliver just what to do.