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Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: CandyOtte] #981529
07/26/10 12:48 PM
07/26/10 12:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
OMG Candy! THAT IS FABULOUS!

I think that many forget or just don't think about how complicated it all can be.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Dancing] #981676
07/26/10 05:37 PM
07/26/10 05:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 504
nc, usa
meri Offline
Glider Lover
meri  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 504
nc, usa
So, let me understand. So, lets say all leus have a defect on the same chromosone(s) as the leu color, if it was dominant we would already know about it, as every leu would have it. If it is recessive then it would take 2 leu chromosones to produce the defect, right? So wouldn't that mean that we would see the defect EVERY TIME we paired leuxleu? Has anyone with a leuxleu pairing kept any offspring, and have there been any health problems so far?

And Candy, thank you for explaining what everyone is talking about when they compare leus to different dog colors and such. That was SO HELPFUL! But I am wondering what others have asked. What made everyone so worried about leu/leu and not worried about the other colors which had the same chance of having a defective gene on the same chromosome(s) as their color? I understand at first it was fear of lethal white, but what about after that was ruled out?




wave Meri & :grey: :leu:
Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: meri] #981722
07/26/10 07:51 PM
07/26/10 07:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
It is not known if there are problems from other genes on the same chromosome as the leu gene. This is however a problem in other species (white cats with different eye colors are deaf for instance) so people are aware of the possibility in leu gliders.

As with the case of x linked sterility in the mosaic glider lines, there could also be other recessive traits that might show up in the limited population of leu gliders because there ancestors are a small pool of original leu and leu het gliders.

Any small population is at risk for parents to carry detrimental recessive genes that could be expressed in their children that receive two copies (one from each parent) of a problem gene. That is why breeders try to breed out the leu population to dilute potential recessive disorders in the small population.

It is all much more complicated than two gliders just carrying a leu gene.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
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Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: CandyOtte] #981731
07/26/10 08:09 PM
07/26/10 08:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: OtteMom
One thing I think folks overlook on the issue of breeding for a specific genetic trait is it is not the leu GENE that can cause inbreeding health issues but other recessive genes for deformities/disorders that share the same CHROMOSOME with the leu gene.

Chromosomes are found in pairs and the egg and sperm each carry one copy that make the pair of chromosomes in the resulting joey. So when a joey develops from a pair of gliders that each contributed a chromosome containing the leu gene, it also receives all the other genes on that chromosome.

Since no one has seen any specific secondary recessive traits in the leu joeys, it may be the case that there are not any 'lethal' or otherwise dangerous genes associated with the chromosome that carries the leu trait.

In other species with a "lethal white gene" - it is most likely not the GENE for the recessive white color but another GENE(S) on the same chromosome that cause the problem. The result of an animal getting two copies of one or more of these other recessive genes on the same chromosome as the white gene is the SYNDROME or pattern of bad traits or conditions associated with that chromosome.

The white gene is just the most visible marker for animals receiving two copies of the chromosome carrying other potential bad recessive traits.

This is also why the sterile mosaics occur as an X-linked recessive. Some gliders carrying the mosaic gene have been shown to also carry the sterility trait on the X-chromosome. ("sterile lines") A het mosaic glider has a 50% chance of passing on the chromosome with the mosaic gene. If they also carry the X chromosome with the sterile gene - females have a 50% chance of passing this trait to their sons and a 50% chance their daughters will be 'carriers'. Males that have the X chromosome and are sterile - cannot, of course, pass it on.

The Mosaic color gene is probably not on the X chromosome but through breeding gliders with both traits, a substantial number (25%) of joeys from a mosaic mother that carries the sterile gene will get BOTH a copy of the chromosome carrying the mosaic trait and the X chromosome carrying the sterility trait.



Actually Candy the "lethal white" gene also known as the Overo lethal white is really more closely related to the mosiac than to the leu. Just because leus are white no reference should be made to the OLW, as there are very marked differences. In a recent discussion on another board the same reference was made and the animal referenced was the white tiger, yet they also share a common denominator with the OLW horses and they also have blue eyes.

Also X-linked sterility is a dominant recessive defect and it is a little more complicated than stated. It is a dominant recessive because only the female can pass this gene on, and not both parents must be sterile line to have the defect expressed in the offspring. The defect does NOT have any affiliation to the color expressed and is strictly linked to the sex. This has been more than proven as we have multi color sterile lines now thanks to the continuous careless breeding practices of some.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Adri] #981920
07/27/10 03:27 AM
07/27/10 03:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline OP
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
Now, since we are on the topic of sterility being x-linked. Why would it still be important for my Preston to not be bred to leus. He is decended from Freddy, out of Kat. There is sterility in the line, but Freddy produced Kale, who produced Preston, who is the father of twins IP at the moment.

So... IF sterility is x-linked, there is no way that my boy can produce sterility. So... why is it still important to mention his sterile lines and avoid pairing him with any leu lines?

I only ask this to stir the pot and see what the perspectives are out there and how we truly feel about sterility and the genetics of it.


Nadine

Adam-Eve
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Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: wildlifeangel] #981929
07/27/10 04:22 AM
07/27/10 04:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave
kitsune  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
Nadine, that's a really good question. I've never considered that before! I hope someone can give you a detailed answer so I can understand better. I don't condone breeding sterile lines from either sex's ancestry, but it had to have come from the male somehow too I'd think? Maybe it can only be passed with expression through females? But if inbreeding is what originally brought it out, and outbreeding is what stopped the expression, the male has to play some part in the gene surfacing. You can't breed female to female, and the sterile mosaic lines were not originally sterile.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: kitsune] #981937
07/27/10 04:55 AM
07/27/10 04:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Nadine, when studying X linked genetic disorders you will find there are different types, x linked recessive, dominant x linked and fragile x. Each plays a different role, since gliders have not been genotyped we have no way to know for sure where the sterility mutation occurred and the exact path of inheritance.

Breeding a genetically defective animal with a recessive is a recipe for disaster, because once it is in the recessive pool so to speak there really is no breeding out. There also is the possibility that there are other dormant or unseen defects within these lines. Personally I do not agree with the further propagation of any known genetically defective animal.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Adri] #981945
07/27/10 06:01 AM
07/27/10 06:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline OP
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
Adri, can you explain more about the specifics of those kinds of x-links?

You and I have discussed it, and I will not be letting his offspring breed with any leu lines... it is just something I wish we knew more about.


Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: wildlifeangel] #982257
07/27/10 06:19 PM
07/27/10 06:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave
kitsune  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
Adri, I agree that we should not breed any genetically defective animal. If a recessive defect were to surface, and the original source and a carrier down the lines were identified through the recessive trait expressing in a joey, would you say that this carrier and all known carriers tracing back to the origin of the gene should be retired? What if this gene was identified but the original carrier was not pulled from the gene pool somewhere early in our bloodlines, would it be an irresponsible idea to breed the same bloodline back to a known carrier's offspring, even if the glider were 4 or 5 generations from the original carrier?


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: kitsune] #982314
07/27/10 07:21 PM
07/27/10 07:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Beth, I know where you are going with this, BUT I do not feel there is sufficient proof the one glider you are referring to is the problem. If there was sufficient proof I would have to side with you. You are more than welcome to call me or discuss this via pm as I feel to continue this here would totally take this thread away from it's intended purpose.

Nadine I will come back to elaborate on the different X-links in a bit. wink


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Adri] #982349
07/27/10 08:46 PM
07/27/10 08:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 504
nc, usa
meri Offline
Glider Lover
meri  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 504
nc, usa
Hi there, I was so enjoying reading BOTH the leu discussion AND the x-linked sterile mosaic one, I just didn't want either to get lost, so I moved the x-linked/sterile mo one here:

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/982348#Post982348

so this one can remain a thread on breeding leu to leu.


wave Meri & :grey: :leu:
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