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.....I believe since white tips come from the subspecies Ariel, it doesn't get passed on the same way normal color genes would......

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I suspect that Mage and Babydevilsangel are correct and one day, we will find out that the WT characteristic is controlled by more than a single 2 allele gene.

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Pricilla doesn't know......

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I wonder if anyone has ever contacted people in Australia to discuss genetics and inheritance with them. They must have tons more information and experience with gliders than we do. A lot of this stuff that we are GUESSING about may be old hat to them????

Oscars Mom and Dad are normal. They are buttercup and little guy. His Grandparents are gray, but Sugar never had a tail - so I don't know. Oscar's brother is white tip. Teddie
Oscar and Emma9normal gray)= produced Nikita

Pepperoni (het for blonde and possible het for white tip ) mother is noel who later produced a white tip

Pepperoni+ Nikita (both normal grays) Produced a white tip and a non white tip sister on the first litter = Snowflake and Sunshine

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, PLEASE!!!

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Oscars Mom and Dad are normal. They are buttercup and little guy. His Grandparents are gray, but Sugar never had a tail - so I don't know. Oscar's brother is white tip. Teddie
Oscar and Emma9normal gray)= produced Nikita

Pepperoni (het for blonde and possible het for white tip ) mother is noel who later produced a white tip

Pepperoni+ Nikita (both normal grays) Produced a white tip and a non white tip sister on the first litter = Snowflake and Sunshine

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Since buttercup and little guy produced a WT(Oscar's brother, it seems to me that they are not normal grays; but must be hets.

Since Pepperoni and Nikita produced a WT(Snowflake), it seems to me that they are not normal grays; but must be hets.

What do you think???

Is Oscar a white tip or not? Is Nikita a white tip or not? As for the parents and potentially grand parents not showing the gene, it only takes one het to pass the gene. It can go from het to het to het through several generations and not be seen. That means only one of the 4 grand parents could have had the gene. Oscars brother produced a white tip because he was mated to a het. I believe that white tip is a simple one gene trait because it is so common in the wild. Yes if natural selection favored the gene(s) then it would be prevelent throughout the population. The more genes it takes to make a variation the more unlikly that variation is to appear because all the genes must align perfectly. I am still confused about the geneology of this particular set of gliders. Would someone please tell me:

What color are Nikita and Oscar?

Ushuaia

Ushuaia,
sighh ... Oscar's brother did NOT produce a het, he IS a WHITE TIP.

Oscar is a normal gray, as is Nikita who is his daughter.

Tanja

RANDY
to answer your question:

Oscar's brother IS a white tip, NOT produced by Oscar !

Tanja

Ok Chris here is is
Sugar and Duece - Normal looking - female with no tail
Their offspring Little Guy was Paired with Buttercup and Produced Teddie - a white tipped tail male
Lil Guy and Buttercup also produced Oscar who is normal color
Oscar(normal color) and Emma (normal color) produced Nikita (normal color)Nakita was paired with Pepperoni(normal color; genetics below) and got Snowflake a white tip.
That is that side of the Family

Now here is the other side of the family:
Noel and Frodo (WFB Male) produced a white tipped tail male named Guiessep (sp)
They also produced Pepperoni who was a normal glider. Tonya purchased pepperoni from me and put him with Nikita and they produced Snowflake a white tip female.

I think this takes care of it.

Ok Chris here it is
Sugar and Duece - Normal looking - female with no tail
Their offspring Little Guy was Paired with Buttercup and Produced Teddie - a white tipped tail male
Lil Guy and Buttercup also produced Oscar who is normal color
Oscar(normal color) and Emma (normal color) produced Nikita (normal color)Nikita was paired with Pepperoni(normal color; genetics below) and got Snowflake a white tip.
That is that side of the Family

Now here is the other side of the family:
Noel and Frodo (WFB Male) produced a white tipped tail male named Guiessep (sp)
They also produced Pepperoni who was a normal glider. Tonya purchased pepperoni from me and put him with Nikita and they produced Snowflake a white tip female.

I think this takes care of it.

This isn't answering any questions, but rather posing yet another one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

If WT was determined by a single gene locus, wouldn't it stand to reason that there should be very little variation in the phenotype expressed? With single-gene traits it's pretty much either/or. The individual either is or isn't. As in--if you have a white tip, it's a very obvious white tip like Lisa's at Suncoast.
So... since we're seeing variation in degrees of "white-tipness" that suggests it's a result of more than one gene locus.

Also, does anyone know or have any guesses at what physically causes white-tip? Like, is it a pigment-transport protein that's mutated so that it doesn't quite carry the pigment to the end of the tail? Since it would be an issue with an enzyme, that could help explain the variation of "white-tipness." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

But ultimately we won't know exactly until the genome is sequenced! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" />

Ushuaia said:
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...... I believe that white tip is a simple one gene trait because it is so common in the wild......

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Jess said:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....If WT was determined by a single gene locus, wouldn't it stand to reason that there should be very little variation in the phenotype expressed? With single-gene traits it's pretty much either/or.....As in--if you have a white tip, it's a very obvious white tip like Lisa's at Suncoast.....since we're seeing variation in degrees of "white-tipness" that suggests it's a result of more than one gene locus.

But ultimately we won't know exactly until the genome is sequenced!

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Frankly, Jess's comment is more compelling to my way of thinking; but she has hit the nail on the head by pointing out that we really DON'T know!!! Twenty years from now, maybe this all will be child's play???

Ok I have put together their family genealogy. My question is were there any incidents of white tips in Frodo's parents line? Assuming Noel is a het then it is possible for Frodo not to posses the white tip gene at all. That is if the white tip gene is dominate over the WFB gene and the WFB gene is thrown by Frodo.

As for being one gene and showing variation, there are many many genes that interplay with eachother all interacting to produce the entire animal. You can have a gene that controls how much melanin is produced and that will either lighten or darken the pigmentation of the animal. There are also genes that control specific aspects of the pattern on the animal. White Face is a good example. There are definitely more than one gene combination that produces the absence of the black stripe beneath the ear. An animal can have the white tip gene(s) also have another gene (not related to weather or not it is a white tip) that tells how much white is going to be shown on the tail.

As for a transportation protein it is possible but there are gliders out there that are from the leucistic line that have ringed tails (several distinct white rings separated by normal markings). This proves there can be patterns of white on the tail not just an absence of white at the tip. The issue of what determines the color pattern at the tails end probably has at least two if not many more genes. The white tip gene has survived in the wild because it was selected for. It provided a communication benefit. White tip is obviously recessive to normal pattern. Because we cannot afford to do comparative genetic studies on the genome of the glider we must rely on breedings to tell us how genes interact with eachother, what trumps what and what blends with what. By examining genealogies and tracking the genes appearance we can determine this information without paying millions of dollars to labs and technicians. I still stand by the belief that white tip is a single gene locus because of its strong holding in the wild and its ease of reproducing the variation out of hets several generations removed from the white tip. If two or more genes were involved then the odds of Snowflake being produced (assuming Sugar was a white tip) 4 generations away from a white tip become ridiculously astronomical.

For clarification here is what I have down as the genealogy:

1A Sugar (Unknown color, assumed to be white tip)
1B Duece (Normal Color)
2A Little Guy (White tip het)
2B Buttercup (WTH)
3A Emma (Normal)
3B Oscar (WTH)
3C Teddie (WT)
3D Noel (WTH)
3E Frodo (WFB, possibly a WTH)
4A Nikita (WTH)
4B Pepperoni (WTH)
4C Guiessep (WT)
5A Snowflake (WT)
5B Sunshine (possible WTH)

1A x 1B = 2A
2A x 2B = 3B, 3C
3A x 3B = 4A

3D x 3E = 4B, 4C
4A x 4B = 5A, 5B

Let me know if any of my information in this genealogy is incorrect.

Giuseppe!!! Cute boy!

Sheila:

I think you need to name one of your little joeys.....LASAGNA.....in honor of my favorite dinner treat!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Randy, you're making me hungry! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />