I've observed on various forums that anytime a question is asked about the HPW diet, someone inevitably posts a response "Ask the source. Ask Peggy."
I've thought about this for a while. I thought, Good point! Why don't I go to the source with my questions! The Source being the Wombaroo-Passwell company. (Since the Passwell division deals more with bird foods, I'll refer only to Wombaroo.)

What followed has been a series of emails between myself, and Mr. Gordon Rich (I didn't ask, but since Wombaroo was founded by Roslyn and Brian Rich, and Gordon, with his experience as a Chemical Engineer, joined the company in 2005, I'm thinking Gordon Rich is the son of the company founders). Mr. Rich has been very generous with his time (and patience) in answering my many questions and explaining the Wombaroo recommended diet for sugar gliders, as well as some nutrition facts I found to be fascinating and educational.

With his permission, I'm able to share his emails and comments with anyone interested. He encouraged me to share the Wombaroo recommendations for diet. Additionally, if I didn't ask questions you would want asked, he encourages anyone to contact him with their questions. I have a complete transcription of our email exchange if anyone would like it. Just PM me.

He shied away from calling this a "Wombaroo Approved" diet. His comments were that the policy is not to dictate, but rather to offer guidelines and answer questions. I have also available for anyone who wishes to see them, Mr. Rich's evaluations of Peggy's HPW and some of the modifications I offered to him for consideration. Additionally, if you wish to ask any question here, I can tell you if it is one I asked and he answered in his emails. If not, he has been warned to expect questions in his inbox!

So, with that said, here are the suggestions by the Wombaroo company for the feeding of Captive Sugar Gliders in the United States. Please note, I have made comments, based on our email conversation, where I felt it appropriate. My comments are in red.

Wombaroo Food Products
Feeding Guidelines for Sugar Gliders

These guidelines largely rely on using Wombaroo High Protein Supplement™ (HPS™) to provide the essential protein, fatty acids, vitamins & minerals in the diet.

The addition of other nutritional supplements or high-energy foods is not recommended as this can severely affect the balance of nutrients in the diet. However there is plenty of scope for variation within the food types presented in the diet as outlined in the accompanying notes.
The diet is based on a 130g adult animal at maintenance (basal metabolic rate1,2 × 2.5) with a calculated energy requirement of approximately 113 kJ/day.

Approximate feed proportions of diet are:

Fruit & Vegetables
(supplemented with HPS™ powder)
• 20g diced Fruit & Veg with 2g of Wombaroo HPS™ (1 level teaspoon) dispersed over it - 75%
• Plain Biscuit (supplemented with HPS™ solution*) - 5 g plain Biscuit/Cookie (eg ½ an arrowroot or tea biscuit) with 2 ml of Wombaroo HPS Solution* poured over it. - 15% NOT a fortified toddler arrowroot cookie. These are not fortified: http://tinyurl.com/8yy8ozm
• Small Carnivore Food™ - 2g (1 level teaspoon) of prepared Wombaroo Small Carnivore Food™ made up as a moist crumble - 7%
I have contacted Karen Milas about this. She expects this food to be imported by the end of May. In the meantime, Mr. Rich commented that Mazuri Insectivore Diet, while low in protein, had good ingredients and balance.
• Live Food - 1g mealworms, crickets or other invertebrates - 3%
* Wombaroo HPS Solution is made by suspending 1 part HPS™ powder (25g) into 3 parts warm water (75ml) and mixing well. Mr. Gordon Rich thought the “green juice” made a logical and reasonable addition in our American diets. Substituting green juice for all or part of the water here seems like a good idea. Can also add honey. See his notes below about this.

Approximate analysis of the above diet (dry basis):
Energy 17.5MJ/kg
Protein 20.0%
Fat 11.0%
Calcium 0.50%
Phosphorus (available) 0.34%
Ca/P ratio 1.5

For breeding or growing animals increase the amount of Wombaroo HPS™ or Small Carnivore Food™ by 50%.

Additionally, I will continue to add Milk Thistle powder for a time, especially to rescued gliders, or those fed a poor diet. Milk Thistle has both preventative and healing affects on the liver. Since necropsies have shown liver diseases in American sugar gliders, I feel it is beneficial in some amount of Milk Thistle as a “prophylactic” maybe to undo damage by other diets or “non-diets” that gliders, especially rescues, have been fed mainly pellet-based diets.

Notes:
Fruit & Vegetables (75% of diet) These are offered as a major carbohydrate (energy) source in the diet. Sugar Gliders are able to readily digest both simple sugars and complex carbohydrates4. Fruits tend to be more palatable than vegetables due to higher sugar content. We generally feed about 75% fruit and 25% vegetables but this can vary based on seasonal availability and animal preference. A large variety of fresh fruits may be accepted including (and not limited to) berries, apple, pear, citrus, stone fruits, rockmelon (cantaloupe) with seeds, paw paw (papaya) with seeds. Likewise an assortment of vegetables may be offered including cucumber with seeds, sweet potato and grated carrot. As long as these foods are supplemented with the recommended amount of Wombaroo High protein Supplement (HPS) then all essential nutrients are properly balanced. There is little need to be concerned about the calcium to phosphorus ratio of individual food items as this is balanced out by the addition of the HPS.

HPS Solution with Plain Biscuit/Cookie (15% of diet) This provides another energy source, which uses the biscuit as “vehicle” for the liquid HPS™ solution. The HPS™ solution may also be used as the basis of an artificial nectar diet which can be made more palatable by the addition of honey, blended fruit or juice. If using these other food items (which are high in carbohydrate) then the amount of biscuit can be reduced accordingly or removed altogether. Alternatively one can also use Wombaroo Nectar Shake n Make™ as a nutritionally balanced nectar diet. I don’t believe this Nectar Shake n Make is available in the US.

Small Carnivore Food & Live Food (up to 10% of diet) Wombaroo Small Carnivore Food™ is used as a live food (insect) replacement. Effectively our suggested diet can use either Small Carnivore Food or “Live Food” or a combination of both. The Small Carnivore Food™ has the advantage that it is fully balanced with vitamins & minerals, whereas insects are generally deficient in calcium. However live insects are a natural part of a Sugar Glider’s diet and are a favoured food which offer behavioural enrichment. When feeding insects it is important to offer a variety as feeding one type alone may be nutritionally deficient. The larval stage of insects (eg mealworms, fly pupae) tend to be higher in fat, so should only be used as a treat. Adult stage insects (eg crickets, moths, cockroaches) have a higher protein content and are therefore provide a better source of nutrition in a captive diet. In all cases feeder insects can be fortified by growing them on a nutritional substrate such as Passwell Insect Booster™. It is interesting to note that sugar gliders also feed on spiders in the wild. Spiders contain elevated levels of the sulphonic amino acid taurine, which may be particularly beneficial in the growth and development of young gliders. Both Wombaroo HPS™ and Small Carnivore Food™ contain added levels of taurine. I don’t believe the Passwell Insect Booser is available to us, either. I’ve been using this: http://tinyurl.com/7dynvy6

Blossoms & Foliage
It is also recommended to provide as much native (Australian) blossom and foliage as possible (eg eucalypt, acacia, callistemon, grevillea, banksia). Larger branches of eucalypt are also beneficial to stimulate natural foraging behaviour such as chewing of bark. We can get euc from eucproducts.com. Additionally, there are many flowers that are edible.

Pollen Pollen from native plants is a natural part of the diet and is often consumed by gliders in conjunction with nectar3. However most commercial forms of pollen (ie Bee Pollen) are harvested from bees and are not nutritionally equivalent to the native plant pollen consumed by gliders (bee pollens are large agglomerations of pollen grains bound together with carbohydrates). As a result, bee pollen is significantly less digestible and offers little additional nutritional value to captive gliders already being fed a balanced diet. The range of amino acids, vitamins and minerals found in plant pollen are also contained in Wombaroo HPS™, so we believe the addition of pollen to this diet is unnecessary.

Iron Storage Disease Excessive dietary iron can induce Iron Storage Disease (ISD), which is the accumulation of iron in body organs and tissues. In prolonged cases ISD can lead to organ failure and death. Some nectarivorous and frugivorous species are prone to ISD, and these species normally have low levels of iron in their natural diet. Although iron storage disease has not been widely reported in sugar gliders, evidence of tissue iron deposition has been seen in gliders at necropsy4. Many commercial human foods (eg baby foods) and supplements are fortified with iron and these should be avoided when feeding sugar gliders. Some commonly fed glider “recipes” may contain excessive iron content4. Wombaroo High Protein Supplement™ contains less than 40ppm Iron and thus provides safe levels of iron in the diet.

References
1. Dawson TJ, Hulbert AJ (1970). Standard metabolism, body temperature, and surface areas of Australian marsupials. Am J Phys 1970;218:1233–8.
2. Nagy KA, Suckling GC (1985). Field energetics and water balance of sugar gliders, Petaurus breviceps (Marsupialia: Petauridae). Aust J Zool;33:683–91.
3. Smith AP. (1982) diet and feeding strategies of the marsupial sugar glider in temperate Australia. J Anim Ecol;51:149–66.
4. Dierenfeld E.S. (2009) Feeding Behaviour and Nutrition of the Sugar Glider (Petaurus breviceps). The veterinary clinics of North America Exotic animal practice Volume: 12, Issue: 2, Publisher: Elsevier Ltd, Pages: 209-15, xiii-viii.

It is actually very simple - his notes are to clarify - so don't let them bog you down initially.

It is fruit and vegetables with Wombaroo powder sprinkled on top.
An arrowroot cookie (half) with a solution of 1 part powder to 3 parts liquid on top.
Insects and/or Carnivore diet.

That's pretty much it.

Bump

Very interesting.

So who is going to Australia to pick up plants?

Why must the dry food be moistened? Why are we assuming captive bred/raised gliders require the same dietary needs as wild gliders?

Are there tests and studies for this diet that can be viewed for captive bred/raised gliders?

How many of you have gliders that actually eat/strip euc branches? Of my 13 cages not a single one will do this. Some don't even touch it, some will make a nest of leaves, others will chew for 10 minutes and never touch it again.

Why after 10 years of trusting the use of the Original HPW diet is this now being looked into? Seems to me it was brought up now only because of a new diet using 3 letters and the creator not being well liked by SOME.

Improvements are what we always want to be doing in regards to feeding our suggies,this is how I view it.
There is so much more we need to learn by way of foods & feeding them to our babies.

This would be ANOTHER diet/feeding plan folks might consider using for their gliders.

Nothing tells me it is better or worse than any of the other glider diet recipes available to us.

It is just another choice in ways to feed gliders. It would need to be used over a period of time by a number of glider homes to determine if gliders thrive on it or not.

I agree Candy. The only thing that sends me red flags though, is that I'm scared that people are going to take any of the HPW diets out there and modify them with this new information.

PLEASE......if you choose to feed this diet, please do so as written. Do not modify the HPW diets and please do not modify this one to fit them together. Please feed ANY diet of your choice AS IT IS WRITTEN. If you feel the need to change something, then please ask the creator of said diet.

And this diet is no different. If you have any questions please go to Wombaroo directly.

Ok, I understand cautioning people to feed diets as written. I do. We have a lot of new owners (constantly) that may try to blend diets together or alter them without researching or understanding much of the combined knowledge many of us have.

However.

Pockets took the original Leadbeaters and altered it and came up with PML.

Bourbon did the same and came up with BML.

Peggy took PML and altered it and came up with the original HPW.

Judie took BML and altered it and came up with Judie's BML.

Candy, you took BML and HPW and came up with your blend.

I couldn't get my gliders to eat anything with honey and came up with Reep's.

Even those in the Australia alter and change up diets as they feel is needed.

What I think is wrong is to make these alterations and launch them on the public without knowing how they will effect the gliders long term (talking minimum of 2 years) and without having many gliders eating it for the 2+ years before it is "launched".

What each person chooses to feed their gliders is up to them. If they choose to risk altering any diet, they should do so knowing there is the risk of harming their glider's health.

We tell people to use one of the "recognized" diets that have proven themselves over time. Yet how many people will just blindly jump onto a "new" diet because it seems easier, cheaper or because someone with a "name" says it is the best thing next to sliced bread?

When I came up with Reep's, I KNEW I was risking MY gliders. I did so because I had to get them to eat SOMETHING and none of the diets already time tested was working for them. But I risked ONLY my gliders. That was 8 years ago. I stand by my diet because of the numbers of MY gliders that have been fed this and how long they are living and the healthy joeys my breeding gliders have and the over all health of my entire colony.

There will be those that see this Wambaroo HPS diet as the "next great thing" but how long has this been fed and to how many gliders in what circumstances? And how will not having native Australian flora effect the diet if we try to follow it here?

The problem I have is that when people alter diets and then have a problem they automatically blame the creator of the diet and that is the one that gets the backlash. NOT the fact that the owner altered the diet in the first place.

And people have to remember that the gliders that are getting fed this Wambaroo HPS are wild gliders and not gliders that we have here.

I for one am rather Glad that Alden shared this with everyone.

It shows that the Original HPW™ once and for all did not come from Australia, even though ONE of the ingredients in it does.

After almost 9 years of the diet being around (The Original HPW™) and used with GREAT success, it is still one of the leading Captive glider diets we have.

After 7-8 years of this diet being out there and the testing that was done and necropsies and histopaths, and the concerns of sugar glider owners, the same people took those numbers and began working on an Improved version of the powders. However this time, we also work with a Nutritionist/Chemist. Keep in mind we are working with CAPTIVE/PET gliders, not wild ones.

The instructions on how Wombaroo (Paswell) feeds has ALWAYS been on the back of their packaging. Nobody has ever really felt comfortable with the *sprinkling* concept, no matter what diet calls for it.

When Pockets first told me about PML, I did try it out, followed her way to a T. I personally did not feel comfortable feeding the seeds she had me order from Australia, although they smelled WONDERFUL!! :-) I couldnt follow the way Debbie fed because she grew a lot of her own stuff (I have a brown thumb) and she ordered a bit of it from Australia.

Pockets recommended (as most of us do) to take the diet to the vet and see what their recommendations were. That is what I did. That is how the OHPW™ came to life (more can be read about that here: http://www.hpwdietcenter.com/original-hpw.html

Now, for those of you who want to follow THIS way, I would suggest you contact Paswell (Wombaroo) and ask they what you can do to supplement the foliage that you are not going to be able to grow/get here in the USA. Also to be careful when you are going out and buying the Tea Biscuits of Arrowroot Cookies.

I would also recommend you take it to your vet after you collect all the information on how it should be fed and you have the ingredients to do so, and discuss it with them.

As with any other diet out there, if you like it and you feel comfortable with it and your gliders will eat it, feed it. If you dont, dont.

Just make sure you, as others have said to, feed it as recommended.

Also be certain to follow the warnings about the ISD. Some diets out there do contain high levels of iron. I am happy to say the HPW Plus™ and the HPW Complete™ also contain lower than 40ppm Iron in them.

Sherri, I agree. I know that for quite a while, Bourbon was catching hell for sick gliders being fed BML. When in reality, it was MODIFIED BML. That is the reason she encouraged the "Back to the Basics BML" so that it could be more closely monitored. People are told to ONLY feed what is on the list for BML so that IF there is a problem, they can try to get it more easily figured out.

But how many REALLY follow their diets exactly as written?



And, how do we know that is only being fed to wild gliders? And why would they BE feeding wild gliders who can forage for their own food? That is why I asked, how many gliders and under what circumstances.

Dancing:

Actually, I never combined BML and HPW - I compared the nutrients in many of the popular glider diets. In the process I noticed that if you combined the INGREDIENTS LIST for HPW and REEPS - you had the INGREDIENT LIST for BML - minus the Wheat Germ and supplements.

My final recipe contained only ingredients found in those glider diets, just different amounts to get the balance of nutrients I was looking for.

What everyone needs to keep in mind is that there are a number of diets that owners may choose from. That choice will depend on their individual preferences for preparation, serving and storage. We do not have a single best diet. I believe any of the diets currently being used by most owners in this discussion are probably meeting the glider's nutritional needs.

All glider diets have pros and cons and we could argue those points until gliders learn to speak English and verbalize their own preferences.

If you are using a RECIPE posted in the forums you are trusting someone else's research, opinions and results - if you want the same results they have had - follow the recipe and the feeding instructions.

If you choose to go it on your own, be ready to do your own research and make changes if necessary after offering it to your gliders.

Sorry Candy, didn't mean to misrepresent your diet. I have always been under the impression that the "Blended" diet was a blend of other diets. I was not meaning to sound like I was downing your diet at all.

Wild gliders? No... I don't think the Wombaroo company skips around the Out-Back sprinkling their powder. Thank you, Dancing, for recognizing that would be a bit incredulous. From their website:



If you'd like more specifics, please contact them and ask! The email I've used is: Wombaroo/Passwell <wombaroo@adelaide.on.net>



Are there tests and studies for O-HPW??

And yes, there are. You are also welcome to contact the Wombaroo Passwell company at the email address listed. Or call them! They've been doing this since 1984, which is a lot longer than 10 (or in the case of HPW, SEVEN) years.

You want to accuse me of making this personal? That's rather juvenile. My interest is in feeding my sugar gliders. I'm not a fan boi unlike SOME.



I'm willing to convey these questions to Mr. Rich, and already have. Again, you can ask him yourself! I'm not trying to be a MouthPiece ... I am simply sharing legwork and questioning I have done and the answers I received. I know, Dancing, that you love Reep's and I respect that. I'm not asking anyone to jump on this bandwagon. Feed what you feel comfortable feeding!


It is great that you have a Nutritionist/ Chemist. That's excellent input to have in any diet formulation. The Wombaroo Family is made up of a biochemist, a hospital scientist specialising in microbiology and haematology, a pathologist, an ornithologist and aviculturist, and a Chemical Engineer. That's just in the Rich Family. Not counting the people they hire or veterinarians they work with.

And again - look at the list of Zoos. I'm not seeing any "wild gliders."

Again - I'm not attempting to be a Mouthpiece. If the diet interests you, as it did me, contact Wombaroo and ask your questions yourself! I found it to be educational.

Just a friendly reminder of Rule #4 ~

I know I'm not going to make many people happy with this, but after reading the emails sent about this diet, this is what I see--

I see a powder that was created to fit the needs of arboreal possums, along with a protein booster. I see that this powder is marketed as ideal for sugar gliders, as it is, mixed with water and put over a cookie for palatability. What makes more sense to you? A protein powder that needs a bunch of extra stuff added to make it complete? Or a protein powder that was created without lacking in anything to be fed as it is? You don't take the recipe for Peggy's HPW Complete and add MORE stuff to make it balanced. Peggy took an already formulated and tested diet and added extra ingredients like eggs or honey. It would be like if you got puppy milk for puppies and added a bunch of extra stuff to it. It's just not necessary, and it throws off the balance of the diet. Alden asked the Wombaroo guy what he thought of eggs, honey, etc. being added to this diet, and what he said surprised me--egg yolks are fatty protein, which is already covered in the powder. Egg whites are healthier protein, but they lack a lot of nutrients that are in the powder, so there's no reason to replace the powder's protein with any part of an egg. The honey, at best, is for palatability, and is a bunch of empty calories. The bee pollen is really hard to digest and doesn't add a great deal to the diet (we see evidence in this in their fecals). The original balance was diluted with a bunch of extra ingredients.

After everything I've read from the emails, I'm very excited to try this diet.

Alden, what makes Reep's work for my gliders IS the Wambaroo High Protein Supplement. But I take the word "supplement" to be just that...a supplement. It is hard for me, after all these years to accept that it could be "enough" as it and not as a "supplement" in their diet.

I SWEAR by the benefits of the Wambaroo HPS. I KNOW it is what saved Reep and gave him all those years he had with me.

And honestly, if just mixing the WHPS with water and pouring it over a biscuit IS as healthy...well, honestly, that would save me time AND money.

But for me...and I'm only speaking for myself and my gliders...I have to go with the "if it isn't broke, don't fix it". I know you remember the bald little guy, Reep, that came to me. It is the WHPS powder that helped him become the gorgeous boy he was meant to be. That speaks volumes to me FOR MY gliders.

I do thank you Alden for contacting Passwell. Gordon is a very nice guy and always very helpful. I look forward to hearing about other Passwell/Wambaroo products as they become available to us here in the US.

Teresa, it IS a supplement. It's not a complete diet. It should be fed with Carnivore and fruits and veggies. But in that sense, BML is a supplement, and so is Peggy's HPW, and Priscilla Price's diet. They just don't have the word in their name. Wombaroo powder isn't a vitamin powder. It's not an additive. Its purpose is to provide a protein base, but it shouldn't be fed alone. It is a protein supplement.

sounds like Paswell uses the word "supplement" where we use the term "staple" for this diet as both are fed in combination with other food products. None of these diets are complete in and of themselves.

But to me, those two words mean something completely different

I remember there actually being a bit of checking back and forth with the terminology in the emails as well, like the use of the word "cookie." Was it a cracker? A monkey biscuit? In the UK they call cat food biscuits, which caused some confusion when the US and the UK were comparing diet plans. In the end the intended meaning was arrowroot cookie, which isn't the traditional snickerdoodle, or Nilla Wafer, or anything like that. Before he clarified that he meant arrowroot cookies, I spent a few days wondering what the heck kind of cookie one could use without essentially giving them a diet half made of vanilla oreos with the cream scraped off. Then he had to clarify that iron-fortified toddler arrowroot cookies weren't what he meant, either. Something that is very common and natural in Australia is hard to find here commercially packaged for adults, which seemed to really surprise Gordon.

In any case, the words used to name the diet don't make the diet. Whether it's called a supplement or a staple, it is still intended to be fed the same way and is comparable to what we call a staple in the US. Peggy calls her diets "HPW Complete" and "HPW Plus" when there is actually no High Protein Wombaroo powder in them, and it didn't seem to cause uncertainty.

Remember, this isn't a "new" diet. It's not something someone ran out and made up. This is the originally recommended feeding method that the powder was created for. Already used and successful in Australia. Australians have been working with marsupials far longer than we have. To suggest that the research here in the US, still in its infancy compared to what they know there, is more trustworthy than the information that comes from Australian studies that have spanned decades, is just egotistical. We need to take this opportunity to learn from them. We have been pitched Australian diets before, and we've put them aside due to lack of availability. Well, this one is going to be available. And it's pretty easy to feed, too. Give it a try, ask someone else that's trying it how it's going. Testing it or looking into others' results isn't going to cause any harm. The nutritional analaysis is AT LEAST on par with what we consider a balanced staple. I will be trying this diet as soon as all of the pieces are available, and I'll be happy to let anyone asking know how it's going!

Beth, you are right. Although we all think we speak English, we in the US don't. We speak American. There is still often language gaps with English speaking countries. Then add in the little "twists" that the Australians add and it can widen that gap a little more.

Reep's diet is the whole thing. I refer to the "staple" as Reep's mix. (because that is the part I have to mix up)

Wording can be very misleading. Such as HPW Complete...it isn't a "complete" diet, it is a "complete" staple/mix. (just add water).

I am interested in the other Wambaroo products and am very willing to keep an open mind. I may even try out half my gliders on it while keeping the other half on the Reep's for comparisons.

Just an FYI, Arrowroot flour is high in calcium. wonder if that is why an "arrowroot" cookie is used, as opposed to another type "medium"?

Jill - I think you've read the emails? He didn't really specify Arrowroot until I kind of pressed him for examples. Even then he was sort of vague "Oh... arrowroot or some sort of tea biscuit..."

I more glommed onto the arrowroot because I knew it was something I could handle explaining to people on the forum - whereas I would be lost trying to explain "some sort of tea biscuit."

So - I don't think it is for calcium. I think it is literally some sort of "appetizing medium" encouraging the glider to eat some carbs while eating more of the Wombaroo solution.

Thanks for clearing that up Alden, it was just a passing thought.

So it sounds to me like the "cookie" is more like a filler? So really it isn't any different than pouring a staple mix over a few pellets. Which in turn the pellets would be the equivelant to the carnivore diet that they use over there?

I feed a few pellets (Happy Glider Chicken) sprinkled on top of my Complete a few times a week. My gliders love their pellets wether they are soaked in Complete or dry.

In my opinion most of our diets are no different than what they are doing, the only difference is that they have more natural foods that we can't get here. But if you think about it ours really arent any different. And I am talking about ALL of our diets here in the US.

I think the big differences here are:
1) MUCH less honey. It is a digestible ingredient for gliders, and they do enjoy it. However, gliders fed a diet with larger amounts of honey don't seem to willingly eat fruits as much. In my opinion, fruits are another digestible ingredient which gliders enjoy, yet have many other nutrients.

2) No eggs - eggs are both fatty and have dilute proteins.

3) No bee pollen - which is apparently difficult for gliders to digest, making it a protein source which is not nutritionally available to them.

4) Simplicity - this is a very basic, yet complete diet that I can mix up fresh each night. For those people who do not wish to feed HPW Complete for whatever reason, this is a great option. Personally, I believe in the Wombaroo product, and that's why I was still feeding Original HPW. Since the HPW Complete has no Wombaroo product, I haven't fed it and will not.

5) This form of feeding was developed with the input of several scientists, veterinarians and people with other advanced degrees. They are also people who study the nutritional needs of marsupials in a country with many native marsupials. Maybe it is just me - but I see that as advice I would like to take about feeding my gliders.

Ko - a carer in Australia - has put input on the thread on GG. Since he (is Ko a he or a she?) is also someone with on-the-ground, hands-on experience with gliders in Australia, this is another source of input I personally value over the input of American lay-people.

Just about... uh ... 0% of the diet is made up of "natural foods we can't get here."

I'm not really concerned about whether anyone jumps on board or not! I had done some leg-work with this, and had learned information I haven't seen posted anywhere else. I post entirely to let others know these things I learned. After that, do with it what you will! If you are happy with the diet you are feeding, please don't change!

If, like me, you were continuing to wonder and question and want more for your gliders, you might consider giving this a try.

I think we have different idea's of what Mr. Rich's emails actually said. I have read them as well and didn't interept it any way that you did Alden. I'm not understanding where you had gotten the information that you did from the same email's that I read. Could you please clarify or post the original email in its entirety so that others can make their own opinions based off the whole conversation between you and Mr. Rich? Rather than the bits and pieces you chose to quote.

I don't understand what all the fuss is about? All Peggy did was take Wombaroo and replicate it and added a couple of other ingredients to make it her own.

This is no different than what Walmart does with their "Equate" brand of replicated products.

But Peggy did NOT replicate it. She used synthetic ingredients that are inferior to the Wambaroo ingredients.

They are very different products. Peggy's may or may not prove to be a good substitute for the Wambaroo but time has not proven that yet to MANY of us. The Wambaroo has proven itself over time.

It was brought to my attention today a demonstration of this diet was done at the RRR yesterday in which Suz and Karen Milas used Gerber fortified cookies which are/were deemed to be unhealthy in this diet. These women put on this demonstration for both new and old owners and people tend to look up to them both as "elders". It's safe to assume now that people will be looking at this as the way to go and will cause harm to their gliders (given the added happy responses on GG today). I saw this coming but never expected it to first come from 2 people that would have directly read the emails which I have read myself and it specifically says not to use these and why they shouldn't be used.

That being said, Alden I have a few things I want to ask you.

1.) I do not see where Rich makes the recommendation to omit water and replace part or whole with green juice. I see only the mention of green juice when dissecting your modified version of Peggy's HPW diet. Is there part of the email here missing?

2.) I don't see where a specific dry food is recommended over the small carnivore diet. Once again only a dissection of each and then of course the obvious business mans pat on the back appraisal of the Wombaroo brand. Is something missing here too?

3.) I don't see a dissection of Peggy's HPW diet only of your own Modified version. He didn't even touch hers. To which he didn't necessarily yah or nah your own diet. Is something missing here?

4.) I see he says the use of the added calcium powder is not required given the appropriate Ca:P is a 1.5:1 - 2:1. Which when properly calculated the OHPW gives a 2:1 and can fluctuate depending upon fruits and veggies used. Did I miss something here to?

5.) Would you be so kind as to post an attachment of the actual guideline you were provided with, one that isn't altered by your own notes or his as you put it?

6.) Why didn't you inform readers that Rich omitted the arrowroot cookie from the guideline he sent you and encouraged you to share that?

7.) In looking at the acronyms used in the emails, I think it's safe to put to rest now that Peggy never stole a product name from a company? Rich consistently refers to the Wombaroo High Protein Supplement as HPS and not HPW. Would it not be feasible to assume HPS is used everyday there?

I took your recommendation and fired off an email of my own with the same questions I've just asked you plus a few additional ones. I can't wait to see those answers.

But we have different food manufacturing guidelines here that they don't have there and vice versa.

Also, there are some ingredients there that we can't get here. And it is no different than what Walmart does with "Equate" brands. Pet foods also do this all the time.

I have something else I wanna ask real quick that has weighed on my mind the last few days... Aren't our founding gliders originally from Indonesia? Wouldn't that potentially alter their needs being Indonesia isn't Australia? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Didn't Marz once say that the sugar gliders in Australia are a different sub species than the ones we have here in the United States? Wouldn't that then too make their needs and requirements different?

I personally would like to read the E-mails sent back and forth between yourself and Mr. Rich. I would prefer to read in it's entirety over reading your edited version of what you thought we should all read and consume from you conversations with him.

ensartain@gmail.com if you don't wish you post on here for everyone to read.

Thank you

I am in agreeance with Erin, Finessa and Dancing. I would like to read the emails in FULL not your edited versions there of. Further more, Where did the percentages in the specified dietary needs come from? Was this his company? A seperate independant lab? A Zoo? The glider community in Australia? IT could easily be a skewed set of numbers...depending on who came up with them and for what reasons. It seems to me that much more in depth research into this need be done before tossing Peggy's diet aside as ineffective. I for one see the opposite in my animals. I have been feeding this diet for about a year now. My joeys are huge...super fluffy, and extremely healthy. My last 4 joeys were 15.8, 16.5, 17.2, and 19.1 grams. These are not the signs of a poor diet. I do agree that more time needs to go by to be sure, however as soon as someone jumps up and says there's a better diet out there...people tend to go nuts and jump on the bandwagon so to speak. I think we all need to take a step back and relax and really do our due diligence here before making any rash decisions.

Please pm me the emails if you do not want to post them up. I would like to see the conversation in full.

Matt

I hope this thread doesnt turn into a bashing contest and get closed down. I enjoy diet discussions and hope this thread doesnt get personal.

There is nothing wrong with learning more and trying to improve what we do, but we shouldnt have to tear others down to do so.

I for one enjoyed the emails and of course have my own interpretation of them and my own set of questions that I will be asking of Mr. Rich. If I thought I would get slapped for sharing my own thoughts and responses, I may feel less inclined to share them.

Even with the arrowroot cookie, I hadnt read through the whole set of emails yet when I posted my "thoughts" about it, I was just thinking out loud I guess.

I hope this thread stays...friendly...as sharing knowledge is beneficial to all of us.

This is an honest question that I've been wondering about. Why can't we just feed gliders natural diets? In the wild they don't have extravagant proven diets? Wouldn't us feeding all these supplements be like humans eating processed food? People always say with dogs, that raw is best not kibble. So why cant gliders just have natural foods that they would normally eat in the wild?

I'm just confused why everyone swears that gliders NEED a proven diet?

We don't have the flowers, plants, tree's, bugs, insects and how many of us have feeder lizards,mice and feeder birds for them? Thats why we can't feed them their natural diet in captivity.

I don't think anyone is doing that at all. I know that me and several I have spoken with are cautious with Peggy's simply because of some of the ingredients and because it has not had the TIME to prove out like the Wambaroo HPS has.

I don't know...I do know that my gliders are on the HPW plus diet. I've only had two single joey litters and EVERYONE is bigger than what I read they should be oop. A 15 gram joey for me is small. Big joeys are a sign of a good diet. So is a super healthy coat. All my gliders have amazing coats. Everyone I run into who owns gliders are blown away by my glider's appearances. These aren't things that happen on a poor diet. I've put gliders that were rescues on this diet that had mild HLP and they got better...also not indicative of a poor unbalanced diet.

Also, after reading the emails in their complete form. Rich didnt' say the diet was bad. He also wasn't talking about Peggy's diet with Alden. He was specifically talking to Alden about her modified version of the diet. He did not say the protein content of the eggs was lower than the HPS he actually stated it was IDENTICAL. I think the entire conversation should be posted unedited and in whole. There are several things that are mildly misleading about the statements made about the conversation...not that it was on purpose, but it was left out. Unfortunately the lack of some of the information makes the message incomplete and misleading.

That's my opinion of the conversation that took place. I personally will be looking further into this on my own as I don't know what to think of it all anymore. But until I see concrete lab style proof that the diet is bad...or a huge wave of glider issues that are directly linkable to the diet and can be related to it with extreme certitude, I'm sticking with it. It works for me, and the gliders love it.

Matt

I have seen this asked/referred to a couple of times in this thread. I think there is, but I just want to point out that they may be posted only if the original recipient of the e-mails has permission to post them.

According to her first post, Gordon said she is free to share with whoever wants the info.

She was told she had free reign to share them by Rich.

Actually it was specifically asked if pellets would be a sufficient substitute for the cookie. Gordon said that it would throw off the balance of the diet, HOWEVER, if we were to find a pellet available in the US that was a close equivalent to the carnivore, it might be something to look into. I know that Gordon said something about the carbs in the cookie being factored in as well, though.

I really do think that posting the 5 emails here would help a great deal. They address a lot more than the recipe of the diet. There are important questions asked and answered, a lot of which I have tried to convey here.

Beth Where in those emails was that asked because I don't see that anywhere in them? Maybe I overlooked that?

Gosh, I know I saw it Finessa, I'm looking for it right now but I don't see it! I will keep looking and check with Alden to see if she remembers reading the same thing.

Well, poo! I can't find it. I was so sure I'd read that. But, in any case, Gordon didn't even like the toddler fortified arrowroot cookies because they would have thrown off the balance as well (and have too much iron). It makes sense that the wrong pelletted diet would change the overall nutritional analysis. But, if we could find a pellet with the same stuff as the carnivore like I said, or maybe even find a way to pellet the carnivore, it might be an easier alternative to using cookies.

Then again, maybe it would throw off the carb consumption. One cookie per glider per night is quite a bit of carbs to pull from the diet.

I kind of wonder if the carnivore would stand up to heat. I keep having the idea in my head that carnivore is a powder (I actually don't know for sure), perhaps we could create a cookie recipe that used the powder in it. Heck, we could probably even put the WHPS in it too, if it would hold up to heat. Glider cookies! Nearly as easy as pellets. People could even make them and vend them, since they'd probably keep.

No you better not, cause we may not be able to get the same ingredients here.

Wouldn't replicating the carnivore diet stuff be the same or similar to what Peggy did with the HPW Plus/Complete? Yet everyone has such a major issue with that.

Now that you've said that and it's clear that you can see the emails yourself, where do you see the mention of "The honey, at best, is for palatability, and is a bunch of empty calories." as you said earlier on in this thread?

Here is a link to the SCD it's powder.
http://www.healthy-bird.com/small_carnivore_food.htm

From: Kyrie's Mom [mailto:valkyriemome@aol.com] &#8232;
Sent: Saturday, 11 February 2012 &#8232;
To: wombaroo@adelaide.on.net&#8232;
Subject: Enquiry from the www.wombaroo.com.au Web Site

Hello, Mr. and Mrs. Rich,

I am a sugar gliders owner in America. I know you've probably heard of us!

There is a glider owner in the US named Peggy Brewer. Ms. Brewer has developed what she calls her HPW diet. I'm sure you've heard of that, as well.

This is the diet as written by her:
• 2 cups warm water
• 1.5 cups honey
• 3 scrambled eggs
• 1/4 cup High Protein Wombaroo Powder (if you have a breeding pair with a nursing or lactating female, increase the amount of HPW Powder to 1/2 cup for the female's HPW diet)
• *1 TABLEspoon Australian Bee Pollen (or American Bee Pollen)

I feed my sugar gliders a modification of this diet:
• 1.5 cups warm water
• 1 cup honey
• 2 scrambled eggs
• 1/3 cup High Protein Wombaroo Powder
• 1 TABLEspoon Bee Pollen
• 1 cup "green juice" such as Odwalla "Superfood" (http://www.odwalla.com/products/Superfood.jsp) or Bolthouse Farms "Green Goodness" (http://bolthouse.com/our-products/beverages/smoothies/green-goodness/detail)
• 3/4 teaspoon Calcium Carbonate
• 170 mg powdered milk thistle
Both versions are fed with a combination of vegetables and fruit.

If I could be so bold, I respectfully request your opinion/ review of my modifications. I respect your research and knowledge. Here in the US we debate about sugar glider diets and what is best for our gliders. Whenever there is any kind of forum debate - people comment "Go to the source! Ask Peggy Brewer!" I find that this is good advice, however the wrong source.

I am not trying to claim I invented any kind of diet using your powder. But I would like your advice and input on how glider owners can best supply our gliders' nutrition. It seems to me that a "nectar base" which includes Wombaroo High Protein Powder is a good starting place.

I am very grateful for any assistance you could offer.

Sincerely,
Alden Bullwinkle


From: Wombaroo/Passwell <wombaroo@adelaide.on.net>
Subject: RE: Enquiry
Date: February 22, 2012
To: Kyrie's Mom valkyriemome@aol.com

Hi Alden,

Thanks for your enquiry regarding Sugar Glider diets.

As you are probably aware there are many “recipes” that are used to feed Sugar Gliders. Many of these diets seem unnecessarily complicated and contain an array of ingredients, many of which duplicate the role of one another or offer little additional nutritional value.

Firstly if we look at the wild diet of Sugar Gliders it comprises mostly of native (Australian) plant secretions (nectar, sap) and insects. Carbohydrate is a major energy source and is mostly provided by the simple and complex sugars found in plant secretions. Protein and fatty acids are mainly provided by the insect component of their diet. A balance of these dietary sources provides the required levels of vitamins and minerals in the diet.

In captivity Sugar Gliders readily eat high carbohydrate foods (such as honey, fruit & vegetables) which are suitable sources of energy. However they often miss out on the protein and other essential nutrients that would be supplied by the array of insect eaten in the wild. Providing insects to captive animals is a good start, but it is impractical to try and match the variety that would be consumed in the wild. Wombaroo High Protein Supplement (HPS) was designed to supply the essential protein, fatty acids, vitamins and minerals that captive animal require. Attached is a datasheet for this product.

Wombaroo HPS should be supplied at the rate of 10g per 100g of fruit. This equates to about 10% w/v of a typical “wet” diet.

Alternatively the product can be made up as a 25% w/v suspension in warm water ie a solution consisting of 250 grams made up with water to 1 litre. We then disperse this solution over plain (sweet) biscuit at the rate of 10mL per 25grams of biscuit. In this case the biscuit simply acts as a palatable medium for which to feed the HPS over.

In terms of your diet I would make the following comments:

1) It is difficult to determine the total volume of your preparation as it has some solid and liquid components in various measures. If we exclude the 1.5 cups of warm water (which have no caloric effect) then I’m guessing that the total volume of this “wet” preparation comes to about 3 cups (750mL). 1/3 of a cup of HPS would weigh about 40g so you are using about 5% w/v HPS, which is about half our recommendation for a fruit-based diet. However because you are adding eggs then your protein levels are boosted to about the levels that we recommend.
2) Honey is a suitable carbohydrate source and adds palatability
3) Scrambled eggs are a good source of protein and fat. However if you are using Wombaroo HPS then you don’t really need egg. On a dry basis both Wombaroo HPS and Egg contain about 52% protein, and both have excellent amino acid profiles. Egg has the advantage that it is cheaper to buy than HPS. However it has the disadvantage that it also contains very high fat (about 40% on a dry basis, about a third of which is saturated), and Sugar Gliders do not require very high levels of fat (particularly saturated) in their diet (note that much of the fat in eggs is in the yolk so egg white may be preferable to use). Wombaroo HPS on the other hand has about 12% fat much of which is polyunsaturated including the essential fatty acids ALA, EPA & DHA. Also egg can harbour harmful bacteria like salmonella, which can be toxic if not properly cooked and stored.
4) Bee pollen is also another source of protein but is not required if using sufficient HPS. Bee pollen is also much less digestible than the protein in HPS so you would need to add a lot more to make it nutritionally equivalent to HPS.
5) “Green Juice” is mainly a high carbohydrate fruit-based product which will provide energy as well as some vitamins and minerals. Looks like a reasonable addition to the diet.
6) Calcium Carbonate is already present in HPS and would not be required if using it in accordance with our recommendations ( see datasheet Calcium in HPS is about 1.3%). However if all the other dietary additions are low in calcium, you may need to add extra to increase dietary levels.
7) Milk Thistle is a widely used herbal remedy for people particularly for kidney disorders. We have no evidence of its use and efficacy when it comes to a Sugar Glider’s diet, so are unable to comment on its benefit in your diet.

I hope this information has been of some help, and please do not take any of our comments negatively as we are trying to be constructive. On the whole your diet seems well-balanced and should fulfill the main dietary requirements of Sugar Gliders. We’d still recommend to feed live insects if possible as this forms a large part of their natural diet and can provide a behavioural enrichment.

Kind Regards,

Gordon Rich.

Wombaroo Food Products / Passwell Pty Ltd
PO Box 151
Glen Osmond
SA 5064
Ph 08 8391 1713
Fax 08 8391 1713
www.wombaroo.com.au


From: Kyrie's
Sent: Friday, 24 February 2012 &#8232;

Mr. Rich -

I'm afraid to report that after a night of thinking on your email, I have more and more questions.

I'm thrilled with your answers, and don't mean to be a pest to you. It would be so much better if our pets came with "care and feeding" labels!

I completely agree. It does seem as if we've gotten in our own way here in the States, making diets unnecessarily complex. I think the needs of our pets would be much better served by offering an easier to feed diet. I believe that many people here opt for easiness over nutrition, and thus the popularity of sadly lacking pelleted diets here. An ideal would be a nectar source that was just as easy, yet more healthy.

What are your thoughts on substituting egg-whites for whole eggs? Would this add the (more inexpensive) protein without the high fat content? If yes, then how many egg-whites should be added?

What are your thoughts, if any, about replacing the honey with Acacia Gum? Since honey is fructose-based, and acacia gum (powder) is sucrose-based, would it be a better fit for the nutritional needs of gliders? Would it throw off the balance of other parts of the diet?

When you write about serving your solution over plain (sweet) biscuits, could you perhaps give me an example of this kind of biscuit? Recently, in a conversation with a British sugar glider owner, I realized that in her frequent references to feeding "biscuits", she was actually feeding what Americans call "kibble." This simple semantic replacement made a huge difference in what I was perceiving her to be saying! So, I do want to clarify what "biscuit" is in Australia. Here in the States, biscuit would be something like "Monkey Biscuit" as sold by Exotic Nutrition http://www.exoticnutrition.com/r1077743.html. These are roughly 5cm x 1.25cm little "blocks" of hard food.

Regarding the addition of Calcium Carbonate - American glider owners are somewhat obsessed with a 2:1 ratio of Calcium:Phosphorus. The concern was raised that the "HPW diet" invented by Ms. Brewer had a ratio of closer to 1 Ca:1 Ph, so the extra calcium is added. Is this not accurate?

Again - I am so grateful for your time and guidance.

Sincerely,
Alden

From: Wombaroo/Passwell <wombaroo@adelaide.on.net>
Date: February 23, 2012

Hi Alden,

We are more than happy to answer your enquiries about Sugar Glider Nutrition. In answer to your questions:

1. Egg white would be a better way of adding protein without excessive fat compared to whole eggs. Eggs are approximately 2/3 white and 1/3 yolk, so on a weight basis you would need to add 1.5 egg whites per 1 whole egg. However egg white contains much more water than the yolk (87% compared to 52%) so gram for gram it is much more dilute in nutrients. Also the yolk contains higher levels of some nutrients (vitamins & minerals) compared to the white. This is why we don’t use eggs at all for gliders – the yolk contains excess fat and the white is relatively dilute in nutrients. Wombaroo HPS is much more concentrated in nutrients and contains the full range of amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins and minerals in a balanced formula.
2. The composition of honey depends on the source, but is mainly the monosaccharides fructose and glucose (about 50/50). Sucrose is a disaccharide consisting of a fructose unit bonded to a glucose unit. As long as you have the intestinal enzyme sucrase, the sucrose is easily converted to its component sugars of glucose and fructose. All nectar eating species (including sugar gliders) have very high activity of sucrase and therefore absorb sucrose very easily. So nutritionally speaking, there is no difference as to whether you supply sucrose or a 50/50 mix of fructose/glucose.
3. The biscuits we refer to are what you call a “cookie” in the US (but we use plain ones - nothing covered with chocolate or icing!). Nothing like a “monkey biscuit” as these would be fortified with various nutrients that would unbalance the nutrition in the HPS. The purpose of using the cookie is as a palatable “vehicle” for supply the nutrients in the HPS.
4. We recommend a dietary Calcium to Phosphorus ratio (Ca:P) of about 1.5. A Ca:P ratio of about 2:1 is what is in bone, but this is not directly applicable to the diet (the turnover rates of calcium and phosphorus in the body are different). Note the dietary ratio should be more accurately referred to as Available Ca:P as it depends on the bioavailability of the nutritional sources. Most phosphorus sources from plant origin have a lower availability of phosphorus (anywhere from 10-60%) due to the presence of phytate. On the other hand the bioavailability of calcium in calcium carbonate is close to 100%. So you need to account for this when calculating Ca:P. It is probably best to supply calcium based on the energy intake of the animal. For marsupials like Sugar Gliders we recommend 480mg of calcium per MJ of metabolisable energy.

Kind Regards,

Gordon Rich.

From: Kyrie's Mom
Sent: Saturday, 25 February 2012 &#8232;

Mr. Rich-

This is wonderful! Thank you so much for this dialog, and your excellent advice.

What do you think about the addition of an Insectivore diet, such as the one available by Mazuri or Exotic Nutrition? I'm attaching pdfs of the Nutrition statements from 3 such pelleted diets. I'm wondering if providing these would be beneficial to sugar gliders at all.

I have one more question (at this time ... maybe more coming!). Would you agree to the formulation of your suggestions into a "diet" I can present to our American glider community? I would like to present a diet that is "Wombaroo Approved". I would like to publicly share at least part of this conversation with those people interested, and have the outcome be a recipe that the lay-person can follow, and in doing so, feel more confident about their pet sugar gliders' diet.


From: Wombaroo/Passwell <wombaroo@adelaide.on.net>
Date: February 26, 2012

Hi Alden,

Without going into too much detail, I have the following comments about the “Insectivore” diets you have presented:

1. The Exotic Nutrition Insect Eater contains 56.8% moisture so can not be a pelleted diet. The moisture represents no nutritional benefit so you would have to ascertain whether it represents value for money, given the high moisture content. On a dry basis this diet contains about 70% protein which is quite high (not a bad thing for an insectivore diet). However a quick summation of the product components (protein, fat, moisture, ash + fibre) = 105.5% which is already over 100% without taking into account non-fibre Carbohydrate. This looks wrong to me because the ingredients contain quite a few digestible carbohydrate sources including apple, pear, bananas, carrots, sweat potatoes, wheat germ, honey – these are either in negligible quantities or the product analysis is wrong. Also the Calcium content on a dry basis is about 5% which I believe is far too high for an Insectivore diet.
2. The Insectivore Fare product contains 40% moisture so can not be a pelleted diet. The moisture represents no nutritional benefit so you would have to ascertain whether it represents value for money, given the high moisture content. On a dry basis this diet contains about 33% protein which is relatively low for an Insectivore diet. As there is no further technical data on this product we can not make any other comments about its suitability.
3. The Mazuri Insectivore diet is an extruded product so would have relatively low moisture content. It contains 28.5% protein which is relatively low for an Insectivore diet. Everything else in this diet appears OK at first glance.

In light of these comments I don’t think any of these products compare that favourably to Wombaroo HPS. The first contains a lot of moisture, but appears high in protein (on a dry basis) - however I don’t entirely trust the product analysis and the calcium levels. Given that the Wombaroo product contains about 52% protein it is significantly higher than the 2nd & 3rd diets discussed, which we believe is more suitable for insectivorous animals.

The upshot is that none of these products would be required if feeding adequate quantities of Wombaroo HPS.

In terms of a “Wombaroo Approved” diet, we don’t really want to go down that path as it will tend to alienate people and we do not want to be seen as dictators. Invariably as soon as you publish a “complete” diet people want to make additions or changes and things tend to get out of balance. We believe that our product recommendations are relatively easy to follow (as long as you understand that “biscuit” is synonymous with “cookie” in the USA), but still allow for an individual’s flexibility. The upshot is that our product is a useful supplement which can be applied to a range of different food sources to provide balanced levels of protein, fatty acids, vitamins & minerals into a Sugar Glider’s diet. I am happy for you to share any of this information with others, however we always urge people to contact us directly if they have specific questions about the products.

Kind Regards,

Gordon Rich.

From: Kyrie's Mom [
Sent: Wednesday, 29 February 2012

Mr. Rich -

I guess what I don't fully understand is ... What exactly are your recommendations for feeding sugar gliders? I think the reason for my confusion is that when you've referred to your product recommendations, I'm not sure exactly what those are.

Since I am in the US and buy High Protein Powder from another source that imports it, perhaps I'm not getting the original packaging?

I see on your site that you also offer a Small Carnivore Food. Would that be something appropriate to add to a sugar glider diet?

Thanks for your time!
Alden

From: Wombaroo/Passwell
Date: March 5, 2012

Hi Alden,

Please find attached our feeding guidelines for Sugar Gliders.

As outlined in the guidelines we use Wombaroo Small Carnivore Food as a replacement/adjunct to live insect foods. I’m not sure if this product is widely available in the US, but our distributor should be able to get it in.

Kind Regards,

Gordon Rich.


From: Kyrie's Mom
Sent: Friday, 9 March 2012

Mr. Rich -

Thank you! I find this very enlightening!

I will be calling the US distributor.

Arrowroot "cookies" in America are something made for toddlers.
Americans love to put iron in anything that is intended for a baby! Do you feel that the amount of iron is acceptable for a glider? Are the other values acceptable?


From: Wombaroo/Passwell
Date: March 8, 2012 7:26:06 PM CST

Hi Alden,

I wouldn’t recommend using a fortified baby biscuit as food for gliders. Just a normal plain cookie wouldn’t have as much iron. The arrowroot biscuits we get here in Australia are not fortified for babies – I probably should delete reference to them for our US customers!

Regards,

Gordon.


From: Kyrie's Mom
Sent: Wednesday, 14 March 2012

I have found a natural (unfortified) source for the cookies.

May I please share this discussion with some friends publicly? I will not pass this off as a "Wombaroo Approved diet" - but I think many American sugar glider owners would benefit from hearing more about your recommendations and the specifics. Of course, any questions I would direct to you. Your email may be swamped!

Alden
Kyrie's Mom
valkyriemome@aol.com


From: Wombaroo/Passwell
Date: March 13, 2012

Hi Alden,

No problems, feel free to discuss any of these issues publicly. We are happy to answer any specific questions. We are also happy for you to distribute the information sheet with our recommendations/suggestions (I have attached a copy here, and omitted the reference to arrowroot biscuits to avoid confusion with the fortified baby products).

Kind regards,

Gordon.

Can you post the attachments sent to you so we can see those too? Those weren't passed around in the forwarded emails.

Finessa - to answer your question, I didn't omit his original references to the Arrowroot cookie, because I thought people were smart enough to figure out what "non-fortified" meant.

Please re-read ALL my comments.

Sherri - Have I ever once. ONCE. recommended that anyone toss aside their diet. I, in fact said:


I'm sorry that some people think this questioning is somehow threatening to Peggy or the HPW diet(s). I was not comfortable feeding that, and have continued to tweak and modify and ask questions. All I've done is present the result of my questioning. If you don't like the questions I've asked - please ask your own!

If you feel I'm attacking Peggy - please show me where!

Peggy's post in this thread actually thanked me for posting. Perhaps she was being sarcastic? Perhaps she's revealing to you all privately that she feels my contacting Wombaroo was some how bashing her?

I'll say it again: I personally do not feel comfortable feeding any of the HPW diets as written, and I've continued to question and seek something different. If YOU are comfortable with the diet you feed - PLEASE continue feeding it!!

He uses tables that do not copy and paste well, so it distorts the information. That's why I didn't post his attachments. I'll try to post them here the best I can.

This was in the first email. I personally find honey to be a bad choice for a carbohydrate because it is fruictose-based. I would much rather try something like hydrated acacia gum powder, which is sucrose-based. I don't see the sense in making the diet so fruictose-heavy for the want of carbs. So, the only real purpose it's serving in the diet is palatability, since there are so many healthier sources of carbs available. You could use sugar water and it would be healthier for their livers.

Alden, just for the record, I was very sincere when I said I was glad and for the reason as posted above.

It may be best to screenshot them and upload them as photos vs fighting with your pc to get it just right.


Beth I was leaning more toward the empty calories part as he didn't say that.

This was his first attachment:

Wombaroo Food Products
Feeding Guidelines for Sugar Gliders
These guidelines largely rely on using Wombaroo High Protein Supplement™ (HPS™) to provide the essential protein, fatty acids, vitamins & minerals in the diet.
The addition of other nutritional supplements or high-energy foods is not recommended as this can severely affect the balance of nutrients in the diet. However there is plenty of scope for variation within the food types presented in the diet as outlined in the accompanying notes.
The diet is based on a 130g adult animal at maintenance (basal metabolic rate1,2 × 2.5) with a calculated energy requirement of approximately 113 kJ/day.
Approximate feed proportions of diet are:
Column 1: Daily Feed amount per animal
1)Fruit & Vegetables (supplemented with HPS™ powder) 20g diced Fruit & Veg with 2g of Wombaroo HPS™ (1 level teaspoon) dispersed over it
2)Plain Biscuit (supplemented with HPS™ solution*) 5 g plain Biscuit/Cookie (eg ½ an arrowroot or tea biscuit) with 2 ml of Wombaroo HPS Solution* poured over it.
3)Small Carnivore Food™ 2g (1 level teaspoon) of prepared Wombaroo Small Carnivore Food™ made up as a moist crumble
4) Live Food 1g mealworms, crickets or other invertebrates
Column 2: Proportion of diet (as fed basis)
1)75%
2)15%
3) 7%
4)3%
* Wombaroo HPS Solution is made by suspending 1 part HPS™ powder (25g) into 3 parts warm water (75ml) and mixing well.

Approximate analysis of the above diet (dry basis):
Energy 17.5MJ/kg

Protein 20.0%
Fat 11.0%
Calcium 0.50%
Phosphorus (available) 0.34%
Ca/P ratio 1.5

For breeding or growing animals increase the amount of Wombaroo HPS™ or Small Carnivore Food™ by 50%.

Notes:
Fruit & Vegetables (75% of diet)
These are offered as a major carbohydrate (energy) source in the diet. Sugar Gliders are able to readily digest both simple sugars and complex carbohydrates4. Fruits tend to be more palatable than vegetables due to higher sugar content. We generally feed about 75% fruit and 25% vegetables but this can vary based on seasonal availability and animal preference. A large variety of fresh fruits may be accepted including (and not limited to) berries, apple, pear, citrus, stone fruits, rockmelon (cantaloupe) with seeds, paw paw (papaya) with seeds. Likewise an assortment of vegetables may be offered including cucumber with seeds, sweet potato and grated carrot. As long as these foods are supplemented with the recommended amount of Wombaroo High protein Supplement (HPS) then all essential nutrients are properly balanced. There is little need to be concerned about the calcium to phosphorus ratio of individual food items as this is balanced out by the addition of the HPS.

HPS Solution with Plain Biscuit/Cookie (15% of diet)
This provides another energy source, which uses the biscuit as “vehicle” for the liquid HPS™ solution. The HPS™ solution may also be used as the basis of an artificial nectar diet which can be made more palatable by the addition of honey, blended fruit or juice. If using these other food items (which are high in carbohydrate) then the amount of biscuit can be reduced accordingly or removed altogether. Alternatively one can also use Wombaroo Nectar Shake n Make™ as a nutritionally balanced nectar diet.

Small Carnivore Food & Live Food (up to 10% of diet)
Wombaroo Small Carnivore Food™ is used as a live food (insect) replacement. Effectively our suggested diet can use either Small Carnivore Food or “Live Food” or a combination of both. The Small Carnivore Food™ has the advantage that it is fully balanced with vitamins & minerals, whereas insects are generally deficient in calcium. However live insects are a natural part of a Sugar Glider’s diet and are a favoured food which offer behavioural enrichment. When feeding insects it is important to offer a variety as feeding one type alone may be nutritionally deficient. The larval stage of insects (eg mealworms, fly pupae) tend to be higher in fat, so should only be used as a treat. Adult stage insects (eg crickets, moths, cockroaches) have a higher protein content and are therefore provide a better source of nutrition in a captive diet. In all cases feeder insects can be fortified by growing them on a nutritional substrate such as Passwell Insect Booster™. It is interesting to note that sugar gliders also feed on spiders in the wild. Spiders contain elevated levels of the sulphonic amino acid taurine, which may be particularly beneficial in the growth and development of young gliders. Both Wombaroo HPS™ and Small Carnivore Food™ contain added levels of taurine.

Blossoms & Foliage
It is also recommended to provide as much native (Australian) blossom and foliage as possible (eg eucalypt, acacia, callistemon, grevillea, banksia). Larger branches of eucalypt are also beneficial to stimulate natural foraging behaviour such as chewing of bark.

Pollen
Pollen from native plants is a natural part of the diet and is often consumed by gliders in conjunction with nectar3. However most commercial forms of pollen (ie Bee Pollen) are harvested from bees and are not nutritionally equivalent to the native plant pollen consumed by gliders (bee pollens are large agglomerations of pollen grains bound together with carbohydrates). As a result, bee pollen is significantly less digestible and offers little additional nutritional value to captive gliders already being fed a balanced diet. The range of amino acids, vitamins and minerals found in plant pollen are also contained in Wombaroo HPS™, so we believe the addition of pollen to this diet is unnecessary.

Iron Storage Disease
Excessive dietary iron can induce Iron Storage Disease (ISD), which is the accumulation of iron in body organs and tissues. In prolonged cases ISD can lead to organ failure and death. Some nectarivorous and frugivorous species are prone to ISD, and these species normally have low levels of iron in their natural diet. Although iron storage disease has not been widely reported in sugar gliders, evidence of tissue iron deposition has been seen in gliders at necropsy4. Many commercial human foods (eg baby foods) and supplements are fortified with iron and these should be avoided when feeding sugar gliders. Some commonly fed glider “recipes” may contain excessive iron content4. Wombaroo High Protein Supplement™ contains less than 40ppm Iron and thus provides safe levels of iron in the diet.

References
1. Dawson TJ, Hulbert AJ (1970). Standard metabolism, body temperature, and surface areas of Australian marsupials. Am J Phys 1970;218:1233–8.
2. Nagy KA, Suckling GC (1985). Field energetics and water balance of sugar gliders, Petaurus breviceps (Marsupialia: Petauridae). Aust J Zool;33:683–91.
3. Smith AP. (1982) diet and feeding strategies of the marsupial sugar glider in temperate Australia. J Anim Ecol;51:149–66.
4. Dierenfeld E.S. (2009) Feeding Behaviour and Nutrition of the Sugar Glider (Petaurus breviceps). The veterinary clinics of North America Exotic animal practice Volume: 12, Issue: 2, Publisher: Elsevier Ltd, Pages: 209-15, xiii-viii.

Thanks, Peggy! That's what I had assumed. I'm confused by the people posting here to defend your HPW diets, as I equally sincerely do not believe I'm attacking them.

I never said that you had said that people should toss their current diet aside.

I just see so many people getting the idea that "they" feel that they could jump to another diet.

We see it happening all the time.

The second attachment he sent was exactly identical to the first, except he replaced these words:
2)Plain Biscuit (supplemented with HPS™ solution*) 5 g plain Biscuit/Cookie (eg ½ an arrowroot or tea biscuit) with 2 ml of Wombaroo HPS Solution* poured over it.

With these:
5 g plain Biscuit/Cookie (eg ½ a tea biscuit) with 2 ml of Wombaroo HPS Solution* poured over it.

I will say that MY posts have mentioned Peggy's diet because I see this diet as an improvement on them. I have been careful not to bash Peggy's diet as it is not my intentnion, but I will say that I would choose this diet over Priscilla's, and before hers was on the top of my list (I have been looking for a new diet for several months). It is hard for me not to consider Peggy's original HPW diet recipe as I look at this diet because they are unavoidably linked, in that Peggy built upon this diet.

I think some may have been uncertain by some of your responses once they had seen the emails from G.R. themselves (IE:you stating he was commenting on my diet, when he was actually commenting on yours etc...)

Now that this has all posted, folks can put to rest the confusion in the HPW diets and the HPS and see that the HPS was just a mere ingredient in a diet that was created many years ago and used with great success. If they have any further question about any of the Powders, be it HPS, HPW Plus or HPW Complete (or the Original HPW diet) they can now contact either Mr. Rich or Myself depending on which powder or diets they have questions on.

To your first point - yes, it is an unhappy necessity to replace the carnivore diet with another insectivore food for 2 months. It will be two entire long horrible months before the Carnivore diet can be obtained in the US. I sincerely regret having to substitute, but it is sadly the choice I'm making.

To your second point - are you addressing me? Mr. Rich specifically says in his first email that

I believe there are many who feel honey is empty calories. I'm not one of them.

To a previous point - who cares whether or not gliders come from Australia, Indonesia or the moon? I'm trying to feed the best, healthiest diet I can, while also suggesting something simple to those people who prefer ease of use to nutrition. If gliders could be fed almost as quickly with this method as they can with an incomplete, insufficient pelleted diet, perhaps we can reach more people who refuse to feed our current "approved diets" because they are too complicated?

True.

These parts of his first email specifically address the ingredients and preparation of the Original HPW diet, not my modifications.



The remaining points are ingredients that I use separately from how it is written. The first four are ingredients we each use, and his comments on those.

Alden I was responding/talking to Beth in all of that post.

I said replicate not replace. Go back to the post from Beth right above mine and you'll see where my post there came from in entirety.

You missed my point in the where ours are from thing. We don't have access to fresh foliage and what they would catch live but since we're going about what's natural for them in this thread wouldn't it be more natural to feed what they would have been fed in Indonesia and not what their cousins in Australia would eat?

Oh - ok. Sorry.

Although the ingredients may be common in your modification Alden the words from Mr. Rich were:



Im really not trying to split hairs here, just trying to show you how things can be read differently when more than one person reads the same thing.

I'm not saying that this diet is complicated by any means, but to me it doesn't sound as simple or as easy as you make it out to be. Especially given the fact that we don't have many of the same items that are as easily available over there.

I'm gonna repost this since seems most was overlooked.

1.) I do not see where Rich makes the recommendation to omit water and replace part or whole with green juice. I see only the mention of green juice when dissecting your modified version of Peggy's HPW diet. Is there part of the email here missing?

2.) I don't see where a specific dry food is recommended over the small carnivore diet. Once again only a dissection of each and then of course the obvious business mans pat on the back appraisal of the Wombaroo brand. Is something missing here too?

3.) I don't see a dissection of Peggy's HPW diet only of your own Modified version. He didn't even touch hers. To which he didn't necessarily yah or nah your own diet. Is something missing here?

4.) I see he says the use of the added calcium powder is not required given the appropriate Ca:P is a 1.5:1 - 2:1. Which when properly calculated the OHPW gives a 2:1 and can fluctuate depending upon fruits and veggies used. Did I miss something here to?

5.) Would you be so kind as to post an attachment of the actual guideline you were provided with, one that isn't altered by your own notes or his as you put it? Already done thank you

6.) Why didn't you inform readers that Rich omitted the arrowroot cookie from the guideline he sent you and encouraged you to share that? Already answered I think

7.) In looking at the acronyms used in the emails, I think it's safe to put to rest now that Peggy never stole a product name from a company? Rich consistently refers to the Wombaroo High Protein Supplement as HPS and not HPW. Would it not be feasible to assume HPS is used everyday there?

No - it wasn't overlooked.

Mix powder with water, drip on a cookie.

Add carnivore, bugs, fruits/veggies.

Am I missing something? This is one of the simplest diets I've seen.

The complete diet is actually much simpler if you look at it that way. There is no cookie needed for dripping. Or carnivore for that matter.

I didn't say it was simpler than Complete. I said it was simple. I think I could probably handle all of that cookie dripping and carnivore sprinkling.

Cool. Then don't hurt yourself, Finnessa - keep feeding that! It works for you. That's great.

Really - I'm glad it works for you. It merely didn't work for me! So - I won't be feeding it.

I actually don't currently feed complete but thanks for your approval.

1)Fruit & Vegetables (supplemented with HPS™ powder) 20g diced Fruit & Veg with 2g of Wombaroo HPS™ (1 level teaspoon) dispersed over it
2)Plain Biscuit (supplemented with HPS™ solution*) 5 g plain Biscuit/Cookie (eg ½ an arrowroot or tea biscuit) with 2 ml of Wombaroo HPS Solution* poured over it.
3)Small Carnivore Food™ 2g (1 level teaspoon) of prepared Wombaroo Small Carnivore Food™ made up as a moist crumble
4) Live Food 1g mealworms, crickets or other invertebrates

I'd say this is a bit more than just

"Mix powder with water, drip on a cookie.

Add carnivore, bugs, fruits/veggies."

Your explanation is the one that sends people into making things that cause harm when they say hey I can take powder to water, pour it on this graham cracker then give them a roach from the bathroom and a variety of fruits and veggies.

Fruits and veggies--fed the same way we feed them.

A cookie

drip powder/water over them, in total 4ml--about a teaspoon

Carnivore is mixed by adding water to powder until it's crumbly, the same way you'd add water to Complete, but stop sooner! Add to the dish.

Mealies...I suppose this is the complicated part. Mealie time always takes me like half an hour! And I only have 5 gliders!

That's not very complicated to me...but if it really seems complicated to you, you probably shouldn't feed it. If you fed it wrong it would throw off the balance, like with any diet. I don't really think there's a point in comparing simplicity with Complete, because no one is saying that it's not as complicated. If simplicity is so important to you, why don't you feed Complete?

Finnessa -

I'm really not going to argue about this any further. You've stated your opinions. I've stated mine. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I personally feel you are being overly-dramatic about this. But that's just my opinion. I just feel you are being argumentative for the sake of being, and there's really nothing to argue about. You feed whatever you like.

If you were genuinely interested in dietary conversations, or people feeding roaches off the bathroom floor, then the second half of this entire thread would be completely different.

I've posted what I intended to post. I welcome any further questions from people who are genuinely interested. However, at this point, I've pretty much exhausted all my information, and I'd most likely direct your questions to the Wombaroo company. I'm not really interested in entertaining questions from those looking to pick a fight.

If anyone does ask questions of the Wombaroo company, please come back and post their answers! It would be educational for all of us, and I'm very interested.

You forgot to add in that whole foliage part or are we leaving that out?

Not everyone feeds mealworms for various reasons, from safety issues to nutrition issues. What about other I'll call them creatures because I really don't know what they'd find in Australia but I'm sure it isn't just mealworms or even mealworms at all.

Alden how was I being argumentative toward you? I have asked questions in which you refuse to answer for whatever reason. I am giving opinions or even offering questions of Beth and not to you. I am not quite sure why you're dodging answers with accusations. I am genuinely interested in the well being of gliders as a whole and could care less to argue with you darling.

Carnivore for one, as we don't have anything really compareable to what they have. Yes you claim that we will be getting it in 2 month's. We shall see about that one. And as for the cookie, well that is a whole nother story isn't it?

If I lived in Australia and was able to get everything over there that this diet calls for then I would say great! But I don't live over there and can't get the same ingredients here so I feel that the diets that we do have here in the United States are doing great for "our" gliders. Have been for many years.

I have no problem with people feeding this diet or any other diet for that matter, but to claim that this one is so simple when in truth it really isn't is just false advertising in my opinion.

People could feed spaghettio's to their gliders with fruits and veggies everyday and I wouldn't care. Doesn't mean that there is a glider diet out there that is perfect. Not even Passwell's Wombaroo HPS.

(please do keep in mind that this diet was not formulated specifically for sugar gliders alone. It is a wide range possum diet to fill the needs of all their "native" possum species)

Roaches. Mealies. Hornworms. Waxworms. Home grown crickets. Fly larvae. BUGS. Sorry, shall I edit it?

I am sorry--I'm going to leave you ladies to keep picking. My replies are obviously getting nowhere, and I am obviously not being helpful. I'm sorry you feel the need to point out things so peculiar as to the wording or exact simplicity of the diet. Perhaps you should contact Gordon and ask him about these things. I just have no desire to sit here and argue about such bizarre details.

Thank you Karen!

Thank you, Karen.

I received a reply from Mr. Rich today. He answered some of the initial questions the thread sparked. I felt it best if the replies could remain in the same thread.

Note - his replies were blue in my email, but that didn't copy to here. The italics remained, however.

From: Gordon Rich
Date: March 20, 2012

Hi Alden,

I’ve had a quick look at links to the glider forums. Its probably easiest if I just answer any specific questions rather than get involved in the forums. It is important to reiterate that Wombaroo HPS is not promoted as a complete diet, and that our dietary recommendations are simply guidelines based on our long term experience with captive Sugar Gliders. Wombaroo HPS is a very useful and versatile supplement that can be used to boost essential protein, fatty acids, vitamins & minerals in the diet of Sugar Gliders. How it is applied can vary greatly from user to user – if people are happy with their current feeding regime and their animals are healthy then we recommend they stick to what works for them.

Just one point, someone asked me about the Mazuri Insectivore diet, which I said to you looks OK at first glance. At second glance I did notice that the iron levels are quite high in this product (350ppm compared to about 70ppm for Wombaroo Small Carnivore Food and 40ppm for Wombaroo HPS). Now this is not a huge problem unless the Mazuri Insectivore diet is used as a large proportion of the diet which it probably isn’t (I wouldn’t have it at more than 20% of the diet anyway).

I have inserted my answers in blue italics to the questions raised below:

I’ve sent this email from a different address, but if you have any questions please forward them to our usual address: wombaroo@adelaide.on.net

Kind Regards,

Gordon.



From: Kyrie's Mom
Sent: Saturday, 17 March 2012

Hello, Mr. Rich -

I've begun a discussion on two of the American sugar glider forums. If you have time in your day to take a look:
http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=41600
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/...iet#Post1239633

Some questions that I didn't think to ask have already been generated there. I know you are probably very busy and don't have much time to "forum lurk" - so I'll relay some of the questions to you here, in order to summarize. (Sorry if the colors are too confusing to read - I was trying to separate the questions from my comments.)

"I would be interested to know if the Paswell folks had any input into Exotic Nutrition's "Instant HPW", or if they were made aware that Exotic Nutrition is selling repackaged Wombaroo High Protein Supplement with the bee pollen added for making Peggy's recipe for her original HPW Diet." Wombaroo has had no input on Exotic Nutrition’s Instant HPW. Neither are we aware of any repackaging of our products in the US – this is not really a concern for us, so long as it is not being called “Wombaroo”. Once our products have been repackaged we have no legal responsibility for the product.


"If you mix the powder with honey and or green juice, do you omit the water? Do you omit the arrowroot biscuit totally? Again, my gliders love the OHPW (Mr. Rich, here the person is referring to what we call "The Original HPW diet" - this meaning the mix I detailed in my very first email to you, and the one "invented" by Ms. Brewer) and lick it clean so if I had the biscuit, they may not eat all of it." You can make it up to whatever consistency you require. The “green juice” is mostly water so will be quite fluid, whereas honey usually needs to be diluted with water to thin it out. The biscuit we use is simply a vehicle for adding the HPS – you can replace it with another palatable food source.


"What do you moisten the dry food with?" You can moisten dry food with a 25% (weight per volume) solution of HPS which is approximately 1 part HPS to 3 parts water

'Is Mr. Rich also saying that if your gliders are consuming the OHPW as directed, then the variety of fruits and veggies isn't as big a concern as some make it out to be? My gliders prefer veggies to fruit almost always. They rarely eat ANY fruit that we give them no matter what form we try (smoothies, chopped small, left whole, whatever)." We can’t give recommendations on the OHPW diet as we don’t have a full nutritional breakdown of this diet. As long as any fruits or vegetables are directly supplemented with Wombaroo HPS, then you can be satisfied that the diet is well-balanced.

"Is the implication that bee pollen isn't necessary to add to OHPW?"Once again we can’t comment on the OHPW diet. However the addition of bee pollen to a diet supplemented with Wombaroo HPS is uneccessary.

"So, am I reading it correctly that Mr. Rich recommends sprinkling DRY powder over the fruit and veggies? My concern with this is that my gliders are very very picky and tend to pick and choose what F/V they want to eat each night thus that would be a non measurable amount of powder consumed that way." If you supplement all fruit & veg with Wombaroo HPS then whatever they eat will be adequately supplemented.

"What about gliders that won't eat euc or any type flowers?" Not a real problem as these are largely behavioural enrichments for captive animals rather than dietary requirements. Most people tend to overfeed their gliders so they are not interested in foraging for “real food” anyway!

"So instead of the biscuit or cookie, we can just use honey or fruit juice and give them 2 ml of that?" Yes

"The 20g of fruits/veggies... how much would that be in tablespoons?" Roughly 2 heaped tablespoons, depending on the density of the fruit/veg in question and how heaped your spoon is. The best way is to weigh it out and you can see for yourself (20g is 0.7 oz) (Honestly, I tried to figure out your conversions using an online program, because I knew this question would be asked. Your directions in one part are 1 part HPS™ powder (25g) into 3 parts warm water (75ml). I'm not sure how to convert what appears to be a weight combined with what is a volume? Sorry - my brain can do the metric conversions usually, but I can't figure out how to get "grams" to "tablespoons"!) You can’t – ones a weight and the other is a volume – just convert the grams into ounces and the ml into fluid oz. This means about 0.88 oz of powder (25g) to 2.5 fluid oz (75ml) of water. It is always useful to initially weigh out a standard measure of powder (ie a tablespoon)to get an idea of how much powder you are using.

I'm very excited that this dialog has begun on the forums. We flounder around about sugar glider diets so much here in the States. We love our little gliders, and everyone wants what is healthy for them! But, not many can agree what that is.

Thank you!
Alden