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Sterile lines #929657
04/12/10 05:47 PM
04/12/10 05:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline OP
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Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
I just don't understand and maybe you all can help.

Why are gliders from sterile lines being bred? We know there are mosaic lines that have sterility issues but now there are possible sterile wf's being produced?

I just believe that the health and well being of the species should come first and that those with known genetic problems should be removed from breeding programs all together. Color should NEVER be a reason to breed gliders, especially when other genetic factors are over looked because the gliders are "pretty".

I think all gliders are pretty, regardless of color and I don't understand why health and temperments are not the first considerations with breeders.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Dancing] #929672
04/12/10 06:05 PM
04/12/10 06:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
T
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave
tjlong  Offline
Glider Slave
T

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
I am fairly new to this in comparison to many here but I have to agree with what you are saying. My vet and I talked and to be quite honest, she says that the healthiest gliders are the classic greys because that is how there were originally created. It makes sense and if many of the other colors were to be thrown into the wild I am sure they wouldn't be the ones to survive. As with any animal I think breeding priority should be to have healthy, even tempered and loving animals.

We have seen many catastrophies in the past with other animals. For crying out loud look at that happened when "101 Dalmations" came out on the big screen! People all wanted dalmation dogs and they were being bred like crazy! There was an overabundance of unhealthy uneven tempered dalmations running around filling up the humane society facilities everywhere! Just one example of people taking advantage of others at the animals' expense.


Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project




Re: Sterile lines [Re: tjlong] #929691
04/12/10 06:50 PM
04/12/10 06:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,855
Orlando, FL
Tish84 Offline
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Tish84  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,855
Orlando, FL
I personally wouldn't breed sterile lines for fear of breeding sterility into another line.

I have been told they are still being bred to breed the sterility out.


TISH

Lana (Siberian Husky)
2 Turtles
Bunny
:bb: :leu: :wfb: :rtmo: :cream:
Lily Fawkes Kingsley Ice Regulus Romeo Mimkin Saturn Jupiter Taiyou Kat Julianna

Glide Free My little Lily And Ice (Miss you every day)


www.fancysuggies.com
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Dancing] #929709
04/12/10 07:12 PM
04/12/10 07:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
possible sterile wf's being produced?


Teresa, if you dont mind, who has this line? I have not heard of possible sterile WFB's as of yet and hoping it isnt so.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Sterile lines [Re: Srlb] #929721
04/12/10 07:51 PM
04/12/10 07:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
I did not believe that sterile lines were being bred... To my best knowledge, any joeys from sterile lines were being sold as pet-only, and the lines were being bred out.


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


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Re: Sterile lines [Re: Dancing] #929732
04/12/10 08:11 PM
04/12/10 08:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict
hwh4ev  Offline
Glider Addict
H

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
teresa,
i have always wondered abt. that myself. personally i think
that all sterile lines should be stopped. there are enough
gliders out there to adopt. i will never buy from a sterile
line myself and i am waiting for someone to accidently
breed sterility into a leu line. hope not. alot of newbies
out there.

regards,
nancy in detroit


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Sterile lines [Re: hwh4ev] #929741
04/12/10 08:25 PM
04/12/10 08:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,884
Wyoming
tbull Offline
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tbull  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,884
Wyoming
Originally Posted By: hwh4ev
i am waiting for someone to accidently
breed sterility into a leu line.


Unfortunately, this has already happened, but it wasn't a newbie and it wasn't an accident. cry I have a copy of the pedigrees showing leus born to a 100% leu het male and a WF, platinum mosaic, 50% leu het female from sterile lines. Luckily the joeys have been neutered, but I'm sure they are not the only joeys born to that pair. cry


T~
www.lovegliders.com

** Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for
you are crunchy and taste good with catsup **

*Proud to forever be a Boo-Boo and BJ Fan!*

Re: Sterile lines [Re: tbull] #929744
04/12/10 08:38 PM
04/12/10 08:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
sweetbabies Offline
Glider Lover
sweetbabies  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 471
Granville Massachusetts / Gran...
sorry if this is off topic. What is a sterile line? I have a faint idea but not so sure?


You are born into this life,Then you are taken away,Every step you take in between is what you leave behind as your legacy!
Extremely proud slave of:
3 :leu: 2 :grey: 2 :wfb: 1:plat: 2 :rtmo: 2 :cream:
Re: Sterile lines [Re: sweetbabies] #929772
04/12/10 09:35 PM
04/12/10 09:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis
cyndiekb  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
The males can't produce in most of the sterile lines being mentioned here. Some are being breed out and a few generations down the males are producing.

I bought a glider from a sterile line. He was to be neutered but there were no testicles in the sac for the vet to remove. He was purchased as pet only so this was ok with me. Then I talked to several vets that said it's not that he has no testicles they are retained. I had surgery done to remove the retained testicles only to find HE HAD NONE. He did not develop the testicles or the sperm tubes. I made a post at that time that this is in fact a medical deformity and they should no longer be bred. I still feel that way. Not the females or the males from these lines.

On a side note I still think joeys neutered to early really will have problems with retained testicles and owners need to research cancer issues for their boys due to that issue.


cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx
Re: Sterile lines [Re: tbull] #929778
04/12/10 09:50 PM
04/12/10 09:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,855
Orlando, FL
Tish84 Offline
Glider Slave
Tish84  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,855
Orlando, FL
Originally Posted By: tbull
Originally Posted By: hwh4ev
i am waiting for someone to accidently
breed sterility into a leu line.


Unfortunately, this has already happened, but it wasn't a newbie and it wasn't an accident. cry I have a copy of the pedigrees showing leus born to a 100% leu het male and a WF, platinum mosaic, 50% leu het female from sterile lines. Luckily the joeys have been neutered, but I'm sure they are not the only joeys born to that pair. cry


Wow, why would someone want to do this.


TISH

Lana (Siberian Husky)
2 Turtles
Bunny
:bb: :leu: :wfb: :rtmo: :cream:
Lily Fawkes Kingsley Ice Regulus Romeo Mimkin Saturn Jupiter Taiyou Kat Julianna

Glide Free My little Lily And Ice (Miss you every day)


www.fancysuggies.com
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Tish84] #929785
04/12/10 09:59 PM
04/12/10 09:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis
cyndiekb  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
It was done in the past due to lack of knowledge but NOW we know. Some others feel theirs are bred out far enough and will continue to breed the offspring.


cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx
Re: Sterile lines [Re: tbull] #929790
04/12/10 10:04 PM
04/12/10 10:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict
hwh4ev  Offline
Glider Addict
H

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
tbull,
why would a breeder do that. i dont get it.

regards,
nancy in detroit


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Sterile lines [Re: cyndiekb] #929795
04/12/10 10:20 PM
04/12/10 10:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,884
Wyoming
tbull Offline
Glider Addict
tbull  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,884
Wyoming
Originally Posted By: cyndiekb
It was done in the past due to lack of knowledge but NOW we know. Some others feel theirs are bred out far enough and will continue to breed the offspring.


These joeys were born in 2009, so not too far back. frown

Nancy, I can't think of ANY good reason to breed possibly sterile lines of any animal.


T~
www.lovegliders.com

** Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for
you are crunchy and taste good with catsup **

*Proud to forever be a Boo-Boo and BJ Fan!*

Re: Sterile lines [Re: tbull] #929860
04/13/10 12:41 AM
04/13/10 12:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
I don't either. I just don't think that it is responsible to breed them to try to "breed out the sterility" because all the offspring from those are "possibly sterile" and since it is usually the males that are sterile, the females continue to be put into breeding programs. You can try to sell them to "pet only homes" and with the boys, you can neuter (or attempt to) but the females, no way to stop the new owners from breeding, even with contracts, if they have the mind to do so.

Taking a mosaic from a sterile line and breeding it with a wf, you won't get mosaics every time. Some will be wf and now you have wf gliders with sterility issues (or potential issues). We have good healthy wf lines and many of them. But now the waters are getting muddied because someone just HAS to breed their mosaic.

Quote:
Some are being breed out and a few generations down the males are producing.

Even if they are bred out and now producing, there is NO WAY to know that the "issue" is gone or only being masked and can resurface. Or to know if there are other "issues" still being masked.

It is totally irresponsible breeding practice regardless of what species of animal. I guess some don't care.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Dancing] #929891
04/13/10 03:04 AM
04/13/10 03:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
Quote:
Taking a mosaic from a sterile line and breeding it with a wf, you won't get mosaics every time. Some will be wf and now you have wf gliders with sterility issues (or potential issues).


You are right Teresa, you won't always get mosaics, you will get possible sterile line wf and/or gray. It is up to the breeder to assure these joeys are placed in the right homes or neutered prior to leaving. I currently have two very sweet wfb boys from a line like this (they were not sterile but could have been) but were neutered to prevent any possible breeding of sterile wfb lines.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: Sterile lines [Re: queenduck] #930212
04/13/10 09:06 PM
04/13/10 09:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis
cyndiekb  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
Ohh I agree they should not be breed PERIOD. Just stating why some think they can breed. Those problems will resurface when you start breeding back to others that have been breed out too. I'd bet on it.


cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx
Re: Sterile lines [Re: cyndiekb] #930244
04/13/10 10:23 PM
04/13/10 10:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,712
nKY
Sabarika Offline
Glider Slave
Sabarika  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,712
nKY
I am more concerned about unscrupulous owners or new glider owners that aren't aware of the sterility issue or aren't completely understanding of its' effects on the glider lines and purchase a "possibly sterile/from sterile lines" glider and breeds it. These people may not know of CG or simply think "well they bred and had joeys so I guess they aren't sterile after all!" and continue the sterility lines.

My thoughts on why they are being bred are simple.. I think people want to "help" the lines by breeding out the sterility. It may not have crossed their minds in the beginning that perhaps they ought to simply end a line when it is sterile rather than spread it out by trying to breed it out, but of course now it is well documented how it effects gliders so the general consensus seems to be "don't breed sterile/sterile line gliders, period". Maybe it started when someone bred a gorgeous glider with a good temperament and discovered they were sterile--they were sad or perhaps upset and thought "well I can fix this!" by breeding out because they REALLY wanted that gliders' offspring, who knows. It probably started with good intentions (or maybe selfish, who knows) but in my opinion if a glider line is known to be sterile those who own gliders from that line/know their gliders can pass it on ought to stop breeding them and enjoy those gliders as simply pets. By trying to breed out it just adds MORE gliders to the line of possibly sterile ones and while we have successfully "bred out" (loosely used) some sterile lines it also created a LOT of sterile gliders in the process who still carry the gene and who are still being bred. It's not as important to me since I don't breed but it doesn't seem healthy--has anyone noticed a difference in male gliders maturing who are sterile, specifically those without testicles? How does the lack of hormones effect their growth and personality compared to normal intact males?


Sabarika
Photography
Cash :rtmo: cloud9 :rtmo: Xpense
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Sabarika] #930250
04/13/10 10:35 PM
04/13/10 10:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict
hwh4ev  Offline
Glider Addict
H

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
i have a sterile male, rocky. he was from a bad breeder who
was taken to court. anyway so far rocky is healthy, loving
and loves to play. i have had him for close to 2 years now.
i was told he was one of the lucky ones that survived because his parents constantly cannabilized the other joeys.
i think rocky has 1 other brother somewhere.

regards,
nancy in detroit


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Sterile lines [Re: hwh4ev] #930260
04/13/10 11:16 PM
04/13/10 11:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
There are multiple breeders HERE ON GC that also will list their sterile-line mosaics as being from "non-sterile lines" and are intentionally misleading people. Meanwhile, those joeys are from STERILE lines that have simply been "bred out". However, as has already been stated, that does not mean that the sterility is for-sure gone, nor does it mean there aren't other issues hiding under the surface.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Guerita135] #930277
04/13/10 11:43 PM
04/13/10 11:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,855
Orlando, FL
Tish84 Offline
Glider Slave
Tish84  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,855
Orlando, FL
That is sad


TISH

Lana (Siberian Husky)
2 Turtles
Bunny
:bb: :leu: :wfb: :rtmo: :cream:
Lily Fawkes Kingsley Ice Regulus Romeo Mimkin Saturn Jupiter Taiyou Kat Julianna

Glide Free My little Lily And Ice (Miss you every day)


www.fancysuggies.com
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Tish84] #930314
04/14/10 12:50 AM
04/14/10 12:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
Quote:
nor does it mean there aren't other issues hiding under the surface.


I'm not going to post everything all over again, because I have on many boards been vocal about my 1 pairing that has a sterile female mosaic in the pairing... sorry newbies. I really don't have time to post pages of it all over again.

Here is the short version... I do agree that you must be very careful when breeding a sterile line, I do agree that joeys from a sterile line need special placement or neuters. I respect that some of you think that sterile lines should never be breed. That is your opinion and I respect that.

So what new do I want to say? I want to comment on the quoted statement.

For years and years now we have had people saying the same thing, over and over again. I am wondering when are you guys going to point out the...other issues hiding under the surface.

So I have had Astrid for nearly 3-4 years now, and she has had several offspring and 2 were allowed to breed (with a total of 3 grandbabies). Those 2 that were allowed to breed, have now been neutered, and the 3 grandbabies are already neutered or in a female/female pairing or a mom/neutered dad/joey pairing. None are breeding anymore, except Astrid.

These joeys/and offspring, have had no issues. Astrid siblings that are breeding... no underlying issues. Astrid's mom, grandma, and great grandma also no issues. As far as I know of, none of this line has had any other issues hiding under the surface.

There are a few sterile lines. After all these years we have not seen an increase in cancer, liver failure, or anything in these lines. There doesn't appear to be any more, or any less disease in these lines than in the normal gray lines.

So how many years are people going to keep adding.... other issues hiding under the surface?

When is someone going to say what other issues are hiding?

If you are going to keep putting the statement out there, scaring people, and judging people, then start gathering data and prove it.

I am not speaking because I am a breeder trying to make money off this pairing. I hand select homes for Astrid's joeys (and btw, every single male from Astrid has proven to be non-sterile or had the vet say... no way this boy was sterile, after it's neuter). I will never recoop the amount of money I spent for Astrid. I bought her for her, not for her offspring. I have sold a few joeys at a reduced price, given the rest as gifts. I currently am - 2500 after the price of Astrid and what I made off her joeys. And when I tell people about her joeys, I am clear that they come from a sterile line, I don't let the females breed, and males are neutered (except the two I allowed to breed and then get neutered).

So please don't think I am saying this because I am trying to make more money. Your comments do not effect my sale/or giving joeys away. I usually have people begging for her babies (cuz she is sooooo sweet and so are her joeys).

I am only saying this because I don't belive it is wrong and I don't belive that there is an increase in anything hidden. If you've have found anything after all of these years (talking about sterile lines for over 5 years now) please share with the rest of us who do not believe there isn't an increase in anything hidden.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: Sterile lines [Re: queenduck] #930324
04/14/10 01:19 AM
04/14/10 01:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Alicia,

While I believe it to be wrong, I don't have any proof of any other "hidden" issues. I just feel strongly that if a medical defect is present, the line of animals should be stopped. I feel that way with any species.

I DO appreciate that you are careful with who your joeys go to. I appreciate you feel that way regardless of who your joey's parents are. Sadly though, you are a minority.

I see ads where "sterile lines" are mentioned but nothing about them going to pet only homes and they are being sold for the same price as their same "non sterile line" counter parts. This tells me the breeder is after the money and doesn't care about the well being of the gliders or their lines.

I had someone call me last month asking about Pirate. These people saw gliders for the first time at the KC Home show (Steve Larkin)in Feb. We had long discussions about CCW and such. One of their main concerns was "what guarentee can you give us that this glider is not from sterile lines".

They wanted him for breeding and the best I could do was give them the family tree and show them photos of Duffy, Viking and Viking's joeys.

They made me feel like they believed I was trying to pass off a "sterile line" mosaic as being from a non sterile line. Honestly, it irked me so much, I ended my conversations with them. I want more for my joeys than being in a home where their primary concern is what can they produce.

Pirate is now with Cora and in a wonderful home. I chose to give him to her because of her dedication to Spencer and other gliders and her always being there to help anyone that asked. I believe he will get all the love he could ever hope for, or he would still be here with me. He is supposed to be neutered when he is old enough. Cora wanted him because of HIM, not what he might someday produce.

You are careful with your breeding gliders and their lines. Sadly, to many are not. I see this problem getting worse if the lines are continued to be bred.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Dancing] #930345
04/14/10 02:41 AM
04/14/10 02:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
1 thing people tend to forget is WHY the sterile lines are sterile. It's due to inbreeding(SEVERE inbreeding!). Not just 1 accidental inbreeding, like with some of the leu lines, but inbreeding, after inbreeding, after inbreeding... Thus resulting in sterile gliders.

So, if these gliders were inbred to such a point, wouldn't it be safe(and a darn good idea!) to assume that there's a highly likelyhood of there being OTHER issues that could be wrong with them?

If someone were to come onto the boards right now and list a joey for sale for breeding that was inbred(father/daughter, brother/sister, etc...) we would all jump on them and tell them NOT to allow that glider to be bred!

Why?... well, we will explain to them that when gliders are inbred then there's a higher chance of there being genetic health issues with gliders and those genetic issues, even if unseen in the glider itself, can be passed onto their joeys.

They may counter saying, "well, I've been breeding this glider's parents multiple times and never had any problems with them or their joeys." Or something along those lines.

Are we then to say that it's fine if they continue to sell those inbred gliders just because nothing has happened YET? :\

Anyways, whether they have health issues or not, the fact is that the sterile lines are still inbred. In fact, maybe we should start listing them as "INBRED sterile-line mosaics" from now on, just so people will realize WHY they're sterile again.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Guerita135] #930350
04/14/10 03:01 AM
04/14/10 03:01 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian
Glide_Bye_Lily  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
I really don't have any argument either way on this subject. But wanted to bring up something a little off topic but along the same lines...

Dogs breeds were originally inbred to get certain characteristics. Without the inbreeding we wouldn't have english bulldogs, chinese cresteds, boxers, etc etc. Remember: All dogs came from wolves, even the little chihuahua smile

Did the generations of inbreeding produce problems? Yes. Certain breeds are predisposed to certain health ailments. English bulldogs are notorious for their short lifespans and difficulty giving birth. Boxers for their heart problems and predisposition to 'bloat.'

But people still believe it's ok to continue breeding these breeds- because they're working to 'better' the breed. Selective breeding is working out a lot of health problems, I know good breeders are trying to eliminate cardiomyopathy(sp?) from the boxer breed, and it seems to working (more or less)

Couldn't this be the same for those who choose to breed sterile line mosaics?

Like I said, I don't really have an argument either way. I just wanted to throw out that to see what opinions were regarding this and the breeding of sterile line mosaics. smile

Just curious! lol grin


Allie
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #930421
04/14/10 10:37 AM
04/14/10 10:37 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
"If someone were to come onto the boards right now and list a joey for sale for breeding that was inbred (father/daughter, brother/sister, etc...) we would all jump on them and tell them NOT to allow that glider to be bred!
"

I totally agree Nicole, if we saw that we would have a fit, stomp our feet, and yell and scream. But yet people here also have joeys from pairings that have no lineage, none at all. Zip, zero, zilch.

These pairings come from homes/breeders that have known to have questionable lineage, are known to have self admitted poor record keeping, yet those new breeders list these joeys as COI of 0%, making their resulting pairings also have COI of 0%. How can that be? If you don't know the parents lineage, how can you know they are not brother/sister, mother/father? How do you know the COI is 0%?

Instead of saying... I don't know the lineage; they say their gliders have a COI of 0% or call them pure line hets? What does that mean Nicole?

To me pure line het means... I don't know the lineage. Instead of taking these unknown lineage gliders and knowingly inbreeding them with siblings (which was done in the past) people pair them with something unrelated (how will you ever know it is unrelated if you don't know the lineage to begin with?) and then they think they are cleaning up what those before them messed up. Bottom line is... they could still be related to whatever you put it with since you don't know the lineage to begin with. If you don't know the lineage, you don't know if they are related or not, couldn't they ALSO have an increased chance of other underlying medical issues?

So yes, we could ask everyone to call their joeys from sterile lines... INBRED from sterile line mosaics.

But then we'd also have to ask everyone else to call their joeys with little to no lineage (pure line hets and such).... Possibly INBRED.

I just think there are a lot of people who like to judge on assumptions. I can assume Mac and Cheese were related if I like, I can assume Mick and Hera were related if I like. Doesn't mean I know what I am talking about. It is only an assumption. Before I judge I should be able to prove something.

I just find it odd that we all assume something might happen in so many different types of pairings. We judge others but don't look at ourselves, our own breeding gliders. The majority of us breeders have at least 1 pair that comes from questionable lines/types, who are we to judge anyone?

What we can't do...

1. Sterile line mos (might be other hidden issues)
2. Leu to Lue (the supposed deadly white gene)
3. Gray from pet stores, mill breeders, and unknown lineage (always assumed inbred)
4. Mo to Mo (fear of the unknown)
5. Leu to 100% leu het (fear of mixing too strong of leu genes) some people don't like 100% to 100% either.
6. Polydactyl gliders (possible underlying issues)
7. Creminos (possible underlying issues and too close to breed)
8. All the albino lines (freak of nature, too fragile)
9. Heterochromia (possible underlying issues)
10. The larger WFB lines (health risks later in life)
11. Breeding rejected or supplemented joeys (fear of other underlying issues being the reason the were rejected to begin with)
12. Breed gliders who have had major health issues, but then recovered after proper treatment. (may pass on health risks or be risky to the glider)


So what I am trying to say is after 5 years of assumptions, I am just waiting for one of you who so strongly oppose sterile line breeding to prove that any of your assumptions were/are right.

I do believe every glider that comes from a sterile line, even if that sterility appears to have been bred out a few generations before it... should be listed as coming from a sterile line and careful placements needs to be made.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: Sterile lines [Re: queenduck] #930426
04/14/10 10:53 AM
04/14/10 10:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
I've seen several people selling mosaics without listing that they come from a sterile line. I know of one example where the owner didn't know her glider was from a sterile line until she was trying to find her a mate, and the breeder of the potential mate told her! The breeder of the mosaic should have told her!

I'm seeing more and more "Why can't I breed 2 mosaics if they are unrelated" questions.

I agree - the decision to breed out the line isn't something we can judge or even control. However, people NEED to be told they are purchasing a glider from sterile lines!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Sterile lines [Re: ValkyrieMome] #930428
04/14/10 10:59 AM
04/14/10 10:59 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
^^ Good Point! I agree completely!


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Guerita135] #930433
04/14/10 11:09 AM
04/14/10 11:09 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict
jacknsally  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: Guerita135

So, if these gliders were inbred to such a point, wouldn't it be safe(and a darn good idea!) to assume that there's a highly likelyhood of there being OTHER issues that could be wrong with them?


The key point is "could" be. If that's the case, then when are we going to start seeing these OTHER issues besides the sterility? Wouldn't it make sense to see the issues in the closer generations to the higher inbreeding ratios?

I have 3 mo's from sterile lines- 2 of them are getting close to 3yrs old- sure their on the younger side but we haven't heard of any health issues/concerns from the generations before them. There are many others closer to the inbreeding that are still doing well today.

Though only a few, we have seen cases of health issues(non mo lines) from what's believed to be caused from inbreeding and they surfaced well before the gliders were 3yrs old. My Serenity a gray from non-mo lines died from his birth defect before he was 2yrs old.

When are we going to start seeing all these "other" health issues? People make it sound like the sterile line mo's are ticking bombs, but that could be the case for any glider from any line. I never expected to lose my Serenity before he was 2yrs old.

My point- if there's birth defect issues, shouldn't we see them early on?


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: Sterile lines [Re: queenduck] #930441
04/14/10 11:19 AM
04/14/10 11:19 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: queenduck

What we can't do...

1. Sterile line mos (might be other hidden issues)
2. Leu to Lue (the supposed deadly white gene)
3. Gray from pet stores, mill breeders, and unknown lineage (always assumed inbred)
4. Mo to Mo (fear of the unknown)
5. Leu to 100% leu het (fear of mixing too strong of leu genes) some people don't like 100% to 100% either.
6. Polydactyl gliders (possible underlying issues)
7. Creminos (possible underlying issues and too close to breed)
8. All the albino lines (freak of nature, too fragile)
9. Heterochromia (possible underlying issues)
10. The larger WFB lines (health risks later in life)
11. Breeding rejected or supplemented joeys (fear of other underlying issues being the reason the were rejected to begin with)
12. Breed gliders who have had major health issues, but then recovered after proper treatment. (may pass on health risks or be risky to the glider)




This is a long list... but you are right.

I know a few people have MO-MO pairings, and WF-WF (much more common now) and Leu-leu or Leu-100% het (Leu 100%het is VERY common)

I can honestly say that I feel there is a NEED for careful linebreeding when a new characteristic is discovered. Yes, I did just say that. Now, I do believe that inbreeding brings out some undesirable, recessive stuff, but I also know that without linebreeding, and inbreeding, we wouldn't have MO's WF Leu's ANY color variations at all.

Same thing goes for dogs, and horses, and cats, and oh, wait, nearly every animal on the planet that is bred!

I also believe that it is possible (through very careful breeding) to breed the issues back OUT of a line (ie... sterility). If the bad trait is recessive, it will eventually be wiped out. So outbreeding, crossbreeding, linebreeding etc... they are all tried and true methods and as long as we keep the glider's best interest at heart, I think it is acceptable.


Alicia:

I think you have some great points. There are BEAUTIFUL and HEALTHY gliders out there whose lines can be improved upon. The whole reason for breeding out the leu line is to clean it up, same goes for any other color.


Ok, so I kind of rambled a bit. Long story short, MO's Leu's Albinos, Cremenios, WF, etc aren't going anywhere. There are careful breeders out there that keep quality and health their highest priority... and I congratulate them. I think new owners should be informed of any potential problems when purchasing a glider of ANY color (even gray) and I also think that keeping track of lineages is a great idea.


Oh WAIT! That reminds me.. didn't some crazy person try to reach for the stars last year? Didn't they try to set up a sugar glider registry where all of this could be recorded and monitored and regulated? Wasn't the purpose of the registry to be able to "click" on a glider's name and see if there are any medical issues that go along with its line....

^^ Silly person, the glider community is too worried about what the fees would be to even make it happen.


But I'm NOT giving up, and the Registry Association will be at the SGGA to give it another shot smile


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Sterile lines [Re: oakley] #930473
04/14/10 12:01 PM
04/14/10 12:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Alicia, my personal feelings aside and looking at it from another direction.

It may not be the breeders that are being careful about breeding out the sterility, the ones who are making sure the offspring go to pet only homes (neutering males, contracts on females), the ones that are selectivly breeding to try to elimnate the sterility problems, they are not the ones that ARE the problem... They are being careful with their pairings. They are being careful with their offspring to BETTER the species. (to correct the damage originally done by the intense inbreeding)

It's those that are selling the joeys and not ensuring that proper care is being used with the breeding of those joeys. It is the ones selling gliders from "sterile lines" to anyone that has the money. It is the ones that will breed what ever they can get (usually cheaper because of the "sterile line issues") just so they can have more mosaics to sell. There are so many new owners/breeders who WANT without thinking of the potential consequences of what they are doing.

So, right now we have mosaics with sterile lines.
How long before all color variations have sterile lines? Is it already to late to stop that from happening?

We (the community) has come so far in our knowledge of gliders in the past 10 years. We know things now about gliders we never even thought to ask about 10 years ago. We try to better care for them, feed them better, house them better, provide enrichment for them, try to look through their eyes when bonding with them. This is all progress for the betterment of the gliders as a species.

But the irresponsible breeders that sell or breed gliders with known medical problems without regard to the consequences or even potential consequences are taking us backwards instead of forward. How do we stop that from happening?



620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
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