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1st post is a very sad one... Please help.
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1st post is a very sad one... Please help. #1421703
12/01/19 12:37 PM
12/01/19 12:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 11
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603gliderfolks Offline OP
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Hello all,

We are new glider parents and had a tragic loss last night after only 5 months of ownership: We have (had) two gliders; Bonnie and Clyde. Clyde died last night (suddenly, from our perspective) and we are searching for answers and are worried about Bonnie. This post will be long, but it is something I need to write to cope with the loss and to become further educated so we can properly take care of Bonnie (and hopefully her new friend). It also may serve as a cautionary tale (tail smile ) for other new glider parents.

Full story:

We are a couple with no kids and 4 cats (3 Ragdolls and 1 geriatric Siamese). We are "pet" people and dote on our fuzzy family day and night. We were at a county fair in August (I know...I know...) and saw a well-known broker (I only say that as I believe that this particular company is not an actual breeder based on the fine print on their "warranty"). We were taken in by the leaping antics of their "All-Star" gliders (I call them this as they are the ones that are fully socialized, let strangers handle them, jump from fair-goers hands into the booth attendees pockets etc.) We bought the whole thing (literally), and came home with the "standard package" (Two gliders which were supposedly 8-10 weeks [OOP I assume], the 18 x 18 x 24 glider-safe cage, pellets, powdered vitamins, the dry mix for a gravy, a heat rock, water bottle and a bonding pouch).

Enter Bonnie and Clyde.

Admittedly, for the first 24 hours we were a bit remorseful and regretted our decision, as it was born out of impulse and that is not generally our style. But, after a day or two we started to enjoy the little guys company (although from outside the cage, as we followed the protocol of letting them acclimate to their new surroundings for a few days before attempting to interact with them in any way). We quickly warmed up to the idea of caring for these little fuzzballs and over the next few weeks came to love them both very much. My wife really took to setting up their cage, and we actually bought another cage and connected the two to double their cage size.


Temperaments:

Bonnie is very sweet, almost NEVER nips (when she does, it's a grooming nip) and is very trusting. She sits on my chest while we watch TV, and responds to our voices. She will approach us either in the cage or when she is running around our glider-safe(?) room. She was the little more skittish of the two early on, but has learned to trust us both completely (at least from our limited understanding of these animals). She takes treats out of hands, and is just a wonderful little animal.

Clyde was frown also very social, albeit a bit rambunctious and a bit of a "nipper". He would nip a few times a day (night), but never hard enough to break the skin and always (it seemed) for a playful reason (Following a few licks, after the petting had stopped and he wanted more etc.). He too, would sit with us on our chests/shoulders and was quite fearless. He got into a (entirely unplanned) stand-off with our 16-year old Siamese cat and "won" that confrontation. To be clear, we did not and will NOT attempt to get the cats to "bond" with the gliders. We are very experienced cat owners and know their moods and proclivities to a tee. Of all the lines we got fed from the establishment we bought the two of them from, I never for a second gave the notion of the cats and the gliders "living in harmony" a moment of credence.

Both gliders were, in our limited knowledge, fully bonded, content and behaving normally.

Environment

The cage is now 18 x 18 x 48 (essentially a "double decker"), and has all manner of glider-safe chew toys, foraging globes, a hammock, a sleeping pouch, a glider-safe wheel (which we swap out the nail insert periodically), the heat rock (We're not sure if they actually need this, but we would find them on it from time to time so we left it in), climbing "vines" etc. From a toy perspective, I'm not sure what else they could want. My wife spent quite a bit of time looking at other cage setups on forums, and modeled ours after those. To the best of our knowledge, everything is glider-safe installed/attached properly.

Diet

We have have been feeding them the following daily:

1-1/2 tablespoons of the brand of pellets that came from the broker (I'm not sure if I can mention brand names or not. I will clarify this in future posts if appropriate.)

2-3 tablespoons of the "gravy" (made from spring water and the pre-mixed powder from the same broker)

Fresh fruit/etc which varied by the day, but consisted of: Apple (Skin on), papaya, hard boiled egg (with and without yolk), mango, chick peas, cooked corn, dried coconut, blueberries, pear, and dried apricots. The vitamin powder sold by the broker was applied every other day to the fruit in accordance with the directions.

A limited amount of treats, but when we gave them anything it was a regular Cheerio (One each and no more than one or two a week), or the the dried fruit snack mix/granola snack mix sold by the broker.

We made every attempt to be mindful to not load them up on treats and make sure that they would have their pellets/gravy along with the fresh fruit/sprinkle-on vitamin powder.

That's the good news, here's the bad...



Approximately a week ago, (roughly 11/19) we noticed that Clyde was making a noise we had not heard before: I can only describe it as "half of a wheeze". Imagine breathing in normally (with no odd noise), and then a hiss/wheeze on the way out. It didn't sound like the spitting noise they make, and it was rhythmic (short bursts of three to five wheezes/hisses). It would happen and then stop, and when we went to check on him we assumed (wrongly) that it was a breathing issue. I immediately started looking online to try and determine what the noise meant, and found page after page of "hissing" glider posts that said anything from that they make this noise when they're angry to it being just another version of the spitting they do to groom themselves. Because of our inexperience, we didn't put this together with a possible GI issue. About 4 days ago, we heard the noise again (and unfortunately dismissed it as one of the noises that sugar gliders make). It would come and go, and we just didn't put 2 and 2 together (odd, given the wealth of information I have found since linking this to GI/cloaca issues.). Friday night, we heard the noise and began to become very concerned. We no longer assumed that this was a "normal noise" and saw Clyde in some kind of straining position. We assumed that he was having trouble breathing and pledged to call the vet in the morning. We called a local vet (not the normal vet we go to as they do not work on on exotics), and spoke to someone about what we were experiencing. Our primary vet recommended this vet, stating that they work on gliders and other exotics, but I asked this again when I called them to be sure.

They said they did in fact work on gliders, and I described what we had observed. The person I spoke to (Likely not a vet herself based on the conversation) said that they could fit him in for an emergency visit that day (yesterday 11/30/2019), but that what I was describing did not sound emergent. She had suggested that we bring the both of them in for a checkup on Tuesday (first available non-emergent appt.), and we agreed, not knowing that this was a life-threatening situation. She asked if he had any discharge around his muzzle, eyes or other cold/infection symptoms, if he was eating/drinking and otherwise acting normal. I replied that all seems normal short of the odd noise and the position he was in when we heard the noise on Friday night. The vet recommended we bring them both in on Tuesday, which we set an appointment to do.

We went out to dinner last night (11/30/2019), and when we came home, Clyde was sleeping in the pouch with Bonnie (normal for them at this time of night : Approximately 9:45pm). I checked on him and seemed normal, but he was sleeping so I didn't want to disturb him. I went upstairs and my wife took him out of the pouch to hold him. She noticed something wet on his belly and looked. What we believe to be his cloaca was raw and inflamed, and quite bit of fur on his lower abdomen was chewed and/or wet. There was also some pink discharge. I did not take a picture of this, as I immediately launched into "problem-solving mode" and called the first emergency vet hospital I could think of (the one mentioned earlier was closed for the weekend).

I called a reputable emergency vet hospital and asked if they work on gliders. They said yes, and I described in detail what I have described above (albeit far more briefly then written here). They said that we should bring him in right away, and within an hour and 15 minutes, we were there.

It bears mentioning that we looked at his underside that morning (11/30/2019), and there was no evidence of mutilation or issues. My wife holds a tissue up to their bottoms daily when they come out of the pouch for the first time to catch the poop/pee, and we check to make sure everything comes out okay.

On the way in, Clyde was (short of the condition of his bottom) acting normal and wanting to come of of the bonding scarf we transported him in. He was alert and even nipped my wife once when she had her hand in the scarf pouch!

We arrived at the vet at approximately 11:15pm, and a tech came out and collected him 5 minutes later. We did not visually inspect him at this time, as we wanted to get him into care as quickly as possible. We explained briefly what was going on, and waited for an hour +. After a while I asked the receptionist what was going on, and she said that they had him on oxygen and would call for us shortly. 10 minutes or so later, the Dr. came to get us and brought us into an exam room, where she said he was doing "okay" and that they had him on oxygen. She then began to tell us that she hadn't "really examined him yet, as she didn't want to stress him out", and that she was not familiar with sugar gliders! I was beside myself at this point. She said that the exotics team was not present and that they would be in tomorrow (12/1/2019) at approximately 8:00am. I was so frazzled and stressed that I didn't have the time or inclination to call her out on the misinformation we had been given on the phone about a Dr. being available to help us now.

Without going into details, the next 15 minutes was a discussion about policies, departments, and procedural items. It was obvious that this Dr. had no experience with gliders and that she could do nothing for him. I asked if a phone consult with the exotics team was possible, as we were now frantically searching the internet for possible treatments and details. The Dr.'s "bedside manner" left A LOT to be desired. At this point, we were told that Clyde could be seen by 9 am by the exotics team, and that leaving him there on oxygen was the best course of action. While we were concerned about the stress he was under being in the strange cold environment, we realized that there was no faster/better known option open to us. We agreed, and I signed a treatment plan (1000.00+) and prepared to leave. A tech asked if we would like to say goodnight (not goodbye) to him. We said yes, and what we saw next is something I will never forget:


He was in a glass tank with oxygen being pumped into it, hiding under the bonding scarf (not in it). He was lethargic and his eyes were half open. His back legs were flat against the floor like his back was broken and one of his front legs was tucked underneath him in an awkward "yoga-stretch" position. The was a smear of pink discharge underneath him and bits of fur around where his was lying. He barely responded to my touch, and finally started to come around after a minute or so of stimulation.

He was dying, and very quickly.

Again, short of the physical issues on his abdomen, he was "acting normal" 2 hours before. I now know that they will hide their aliments in an effort to protect the colony, but this was such a shock. I pleaded with the doctor (who was typing on a computer nearby while we are standing at the tank crying our eyes out) to do something, and she agreed that he looked very bad. She said that she would give him anti-biotics, pain killers and fluids, and that there was nothing we could do right now. We had no choice but to leave.

At approximately 3:30 this morning (12/1/2019), the Dr. called and said that he was having trouble breathing and that they were attempting CPR.

He died while I was on the phone with her.

I could go into further detail, but suffice to say that we now have the lone glider (whom we love dearly) that we are concerned that may have health issues (although she is showing no signs of distress), and who clearly needs a new friend to remain happy. We are in southern New Hampshire and would greatly appreciate any guidance and good energy you all can offer. What I have written above describes out total experience with sugar gliders, and we are completely open to modifying their diet and/or our care giving as appropriate.


Please help.




Greg and Kristen.









Last edited by 603gliderfolks; 12/01/19 09:35 PM.
Current Research, Studies & Resources
Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: 603gliderfolks] #1421704
12/01/19 07:04 PM
12/01/19 07:04 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 200
South Dakota
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sugarfluff  Online Content
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 200
South Dakota
Wow what an ordeal you've had. I'm sorry for the loss of Clyde, I dont have any firm ideas on what could have caused him to go down hill so fast, perhaps his cloaca was irritated somehow and he started self mutilating around it and things just spiraled from there. If possible, the vet could do a necrospy and perhaps find some answers for you. As for Bonnie, I'd give the cage and items a good washing and give her some extra attention until you can find her another pal.

Hopefully someone a bit more experienced can offer up some advice soon.

Again I'm so sorry for your loss.


Desiree

:grey: Buttercup :leu: Falcore :wfb: Smores
Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: 603gliderfolks] #1421706
12/02/19 09:22 AM
12/02/19 09:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,776
SW Missouri
Ladymagyver Offline
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Ladymagyver  Offline
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SW Missouri
I am so sorry for your loss...

We are empty nesters and have a similar story to the beginnings of glider slavery. We have been slaves for only 5+ years.


First, if you are referring to Pocket Pets as the vendor, it's OK. We call them PP for short. If you have followed their plan as far as diet, Clyde should be under a warranty (replacement. Sorry for being a bit cold about it, but it to the point and my brain isn't working very well this morning).

The diet is great they have been on.

I agree with sugarfluff on cleaning cage and so on.

Check your water bottle and make sure it's working properly. Give Bonnie another water source like a small shallow dish (give fresh water in it every day). And spend more time with her.

I won't go in to what the emergency hospital did wrong on top of what you guys observed, as this thread would get too long.

Get Bonnie in for a well check with your regular exotic vet and tell them about Clyde, have his records sent to them of what they did. This is in case Bonnie gets sick too. Have a urine and fecal tested.

As a preventative, You can do a tent test to Bonnie. She may be dehydrated if the water bottle isn't working correctly. Grab her at the scruff of her neck and pull straight up, let go. The skin/fur should drop rather quickly. If not, give her more fluids. Even honey water.

I forgot... wave :welcomegc:.

Please keep us posted and if you decide to get a necropsy, we would like to document the results for future reference that may help other gliders .

( I'm forgetting something important)

If you have any questions please feel free to to ask.

Prayers for you and Bonnie.


Dawn

https://www.facebook.com/uptilldawngliders/

Be patient,
and
Trust your journey....




Fiona :grey:
Dot :grey:

Stewie :rtmo:
Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: 603gliderfolks] #1421710
12/02/19 10:40 AM
12/02/19 10:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,937
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline
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KarenE  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,937
LittleRock, AR USA
I am so very sorry for your loss and all you have been through. I agree with the advice Dawn has given you, especially the warranty on Little Clyde.
Originally Posted by 603gliderfolks
Fresh fruit/etc which varied by the day, but consisted of: Apple (Skin on), papaya, hard boiled egg (with and without yolk), mango, chick peas, cooked corn, dried coconut, blueberries, pear, and dried apricots. The vitamin powder sold by the broker was applied every other day to the fruit in accordance with the direction
I am concerned about the instructions given to you for this "diet" if you were indeed dealing with Pocket Pets because they have changed what they recommend from the past to a healthy powder form to be made at home called GlideRGravy (my mistake - I read further you were feeding the gravy mix)

The creator of this mix retailed under Critterlove, however, does not recommend feeding with so many fruits but a balanced mix of fruits and veggies.She in fact recommends using her salad mixes. Using the salad mixes insures they get a balance of what they need.

Also, there is no need for extra vitamins to be sprinkled over their food as everything is included in the Gravy. No need to add extra protein either like boiled eggs or chicken, etc. Everything is in the Gravy wink

Please do not blame your self for anything that may have happened to Clyde. There is no way of knowing if he had a problem coming to you as many of these Pocket Pet gliders do. Sometimes they don't know either. It does sound like he may have had difficulty going poo with a blockage. There is no way of knowing for sure without a necropsy, and it is probably too late for that.

I would have Little Bonnie checked out and just go from here knowing you did everything you could for Sweet Clyde. Contact the number on your warranty and try to get a replacement although it will never replace Clyde in your heart.

hug2


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Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: KarenE] #1421713
12/02/19 11:35 AM
12/02/19 11:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2019
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603gliderfolks Offline OP
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Hollis
Sincere thanks to all of your for your knowledgeable replies. We (ironically) have the original non-emergent appointment set for tomorrow at 4pm, so we will bring Bonnie in then and explain in detail what we went through over the weekend. We have already removed everything from the cage, done a detailed cleaning and put things back together. Bonnie seemed fine last night, and we moved the cage into our bedroom so she could see/smell us all night. She has been either with me or my wife all day in a bonding pouch, and we have been periodically talking to her and giving little squeezes/pets through the pouch. If I open the pouch, she'll stir and blink at me, and then go back to sleep.

She did make an odd noise last night, but it didn't sound like the aggressive hissing that Clyde made over the past week or so. I would describe it as a hiss/crab combo, (hiss-crab-hiss-crab-hiss-crab in rapid fire over maybe 2-3 seconds). She didn't do it again, and hasn't done it since. She was in the pouch when this happened, and my wife took her out and "de-pooped" her. She went normally (both in quantity and behavior) and peed shortly there afterwards. She did not make any noises or appear to be in pain and/or strain while going. This was around 10:00pm, which is when she normally starts to "show up for work" as we like to call it. smile I checked the poop by placing it on a paper towel and pressing my fingernail into it to check for consistency. I could make a fingernail dent in it, but it didn't smush or smear. it was not hard, but it wasn't mushy/overly soft either. The caliber and color (dark brown, almost black) seems the same as in months past. Her ears are up, and she is energetic. She used the water bottle last night (You don't always see when they use it), and went straight for the gravy (Yes it is the PP brand).

I am going to call PP right now and check on the "warranty" scenario.

Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: 603gliderfolks] #1421714
12/02/19 02:36 PM
12/02/19 02:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,776
SW Missouri
Ladymagyver Offline
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Ladymagyver  Offline
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She may have been calling for Clyde.

Glad to hear she's doing well.

Please keep us posted.


Dawn

https://www.facebook.com/uptilldawngliders/

Be patient,
and
Trust your journey....




Fiona :grey:
Dot :grey:

Stewie :rtmo:
Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: Ladymagyver] #1421715
12/02/19 02:40 PM
12/02/19 02:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,937
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline
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KarenE  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,937
LittleRock, AR USA
My thoughts exactly. Dawn just posted first agree


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Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: 603gliderfolks] #1421716
12/02/19 07:02 PM
12/02/19 07:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,470
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
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Feather  Offline
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Wisconsin
I am very sorry for your loss.

Sugar gliders are good at hiding illnesses until they are almost in the grave. The fact that he was chewing on his abdomen and cloaca makes me think of UTI or Parasites.

I would have Bonnie checked for parasites and giardia. Tell them there is bee pollen in her diet as the eggs of some parasites look like bee pollen.

I do believe that you have to get a necropsy done on Clyde for Pocket Pets warranty program.

Please keep us posted on Bonnie and check out Critterlove.com.


Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Mister Peanut & Big Mack
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Stevie, Cho, Toothless & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Khayman, Light Fury & T'Pring :rtmo:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:

Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: Feather] #1421719
12/02/19 07:35 PM
12/02/19 07:35 PM
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603gliderfolks Offline OP
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603gliderfolks  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Feather
I am very sorry for your loss.

Sugar gliders are good at hiding illnesses until they are almost in the grave. The fact that he was chewing on his abdomen and cloaca makes me think of UTI or Parasites.

I would have Bonnie checked for parasites and giardia. Tell them there is bee pollen in her diet as the eggs of some parasites look like bee pollen.

I do believe that you have to get a necropsy done on Clyde for Pocket Pets warranty program.

Please keep us posted on Bonnie and check out Critterlove.com.



We will have her checked for the gambit of illnesses. We have always used spring water, so I'm not sure how he might have contracted giardia. That said, I'm no parasite expert, so I will defer to the board's considerable knowledge in this field. I will report back on the test results asap!

Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: 603gliderfolks] #1421720
12/03/19 12:09 AM
12/03/19 12:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 370
Ada OK
Claralice Offline
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Claralice  Offline
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Ada OK
Good luck and hope your little girl does well. She sounds healthy and I also wonder if Clyde had a UTI. It is painful and would have led to the mutilation. Again, good luck and sadly, lets hope financially you will be able to recoup the cost and also find Bonnie a buddy.


Marshmallow and Snowball :leu: :leu:
Freddie and Barnabus Caramel neutered males
Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: 603gliderfolks] #1421728
12/03/19 06:10 PM
12/03/19 06:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 11
Hollis
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603gliderfolks Offline OP
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Hollis
Just came back from the vet. Bonnie is fine! She was so good at the vet. The Dr. remarked multiple times about how sweet she was; no crabbing, biting or general fussiness. She feels (but cannot by her own admission be sure) that Clyde had a urinary blockage. She said that males get those due to the size of their urethra. Here's little Bonnie smile We still have to drop enough stool for the tests, but the physical exam was just fine.

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Last edited by 603gliderfolks; 12/03/19 06:12 PM.
Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: 603gliderfolks] #1421731
12/03/19 07:08 PM
12/03/19 07:08 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 200
South Dakota
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South Dakota
So good to hear Bonnie is doing well. She's a cutie!


Desiree

:grey: Buttercup :leu: Falcore :wfb: Smores
Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: 603gliderfolks] #1421732
12/03/19 08:18 PM
12/03/19 08:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,776
SW Missouri
Ladymagyver Offline
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Ladymagyver  Offline
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I'm glad her check up went well! thumb

She is a cutie and she looks great!

Thanks for the update!

I hope her fecal comes out OK too.


Dawn

https://www.facebook.com/uptilldawngliders/

Be patient,
and
Trust your journey....




Fiona :grey:
Dot :grey:

Stewie :rtmo:
Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: 603gliderfolks] #1421739
12/05/19 09:32 PM
12/05/19 09:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 370
Ada OK
Claralice Offline
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Claralice  Offline
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Ada OK
Pretty lil girl! Glad she checked out so far!


Marshmallow and Snowball :leu: :leu:
Freddie and Barnabus Caramel neutered males
Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: 603gliderfolks] #1421741
12/05/19 09:54 PM
12/05/19 09:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 70
Dallas/Ft. Worth
CKC44 Offline
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CKC44  Offline
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Bonnie is beautiful! :hdance:


New Glider parents to Tika & Astrid! 🥰
Re: 1st post is a very sad one... Please help. [Re: 603gliderfolks] #1421753
12/07/19 10:52 AM
12/07/19 10:52 AM
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Hollis
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603gliderfolks Offline OP
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Hollis
Bonnie's fecal results are back and clean! smile

Thanks to all for your kind words!


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Maple syrup
by evita29. 12/09/19 12:16 PM
Odd "whisker" on back
by 603gliderfolks. 12/09/19 08:26 AM
Diet questions from a newbie
by 603gliderfolks. 12/06/19 09:21 AM
Tika's poop test...
by CKC44. 12/05/19 09:47 PM
Wild baby
by Jarryl. 12/04/19 12:19 AM
glider colony question.
by BYK_Chainsaw. 12/03/19 12:44 AM
1st post is a very sad one... Please help.
by 603gliderfolks. 12/01/19 12:37 PM
Glider threw up after having turkey!
by Lorin1991. 11/29/19 05:42 AM
HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!
by KarenE. 11/28/19 02:22 PM
Gus Update
by theresaw. 11/27/19 09:50 PM
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