Hi! I'm new to GC, but I've been working with Bourbon a little over a week with my very pouch protective girls. One of my girls Ofi tends to bite very hard as well, but I know that she is extremely protective over her friend Mai. It's slow going but I can tell an immense difference from when I first started. I still am not at the point that I can hold them, but they let me pet them and feed them yogurt. I make sure to bring the yogurt every time I go into their cage so that they associate me with something delicious. I know that it is hard to want to scoop them straight up and and kiss them, but I remind myself that the progress we've made, no matter how small and slow, is still progress. I wish you the best of luck in creating a relationship with Smith and Wesson and please don't give up. It seems that every glider and human slave moves at their own pace. Even though we get frustrated and want to be further along, I remind myself constantly that we have to move at their pace and their comfort level. I know my babies have trust issues, but like you, I will do whatever it takes to build my relationship with them. Please keep us updated!!

I talked to Bourbon the other day. It has been far too long hehe! Her advice was to BE CONSISTENT! I was experimenting with not taking yogurt in there with me and was getting bitten. She reminded me that it's going to take longer with me since my schedule is so erratic. So I've been taking yogurt in there with me every day. I've been trying to spend at least an hour in there with them every night after work.

But unfortunately, I'm going to have to change things up again... I discovered last night that my gliders have been chewing holes in the window screens (my husband is going to be TICKED) so I'm thinking that letting them run free in the room isn't a great idea anymore. I can let them out while I'm in there supervising, but I have no idea how to get them back in their cage when I'm ready to go to bed. Anyone have any ideas? They're used to having run of the room and getting one in the cage isn't a big deal, but keeping that one in the cage while adding others? I don't know how many hours it took me last night! haha I'm scared that I'm going to scare them and undo any progress we've made when I try to get them back into their cage. I've tried putting treats in their cage but they usually grab a treat and then run up to the ceiling where I can't reach them to eat it.

Bourbon's assignment to me was to find 3 things about Wesson that others can't say about their gliders. She wants me to get to KNOW him... to study him like I've never seen him before. I've been trying, and I have found plenty of things about Smith, but Wesson seems pretty normal (other than the fact that he bites all the time). So that's what I've been working on lately. (The example she gave was that one of the other people she works with noticed a white spot on the inside of one of her gliders' ears that she hadn't noticed before). So my challenge to those of you who keep up with this thread is to find 3 things about your gliders that no one else can say about theirs (nothing like the color, or they have a tail...). What color are their eyes? They *look* black, but what color are they really? Are there any distinguishing characteristics that distinguish them from another glider of the same color or type? I'd be interested in hearing your responses. :-)

My little Ofi has buck teeth and Mai's stripes come to a little point around her ears. By the way, I had been petting my doggies today and forgot to wash the smell off of me. I got a couple of light bites to remind me to wash my hands lol. As far as getting them in the cage, I wish I had advice to give you. Mine have not had play time out of the cage yet because I know I could not get them back in, and I only have two.

My challenge to you is to find their pupil, trust me you will know when you find it, and once you do go tell bourbon what it looks like.... and another hint look behind the black in their eyes and see if you notice a special color!

As far as getting them back in he cage it wouldhelp if you could post pics of it so we know what your working with but my suggestion right now is get 2 in a zippered bonding pouch and the other 2 in another zippered pouch and carry both into the cage and unzip and release lol then shut the doors quick!

P.S. my kodah is the glider with a white dot in his ear, and the other ear has a little black freckle. Cutest marks I've ever seen!!!!

That's a great suggestion MeganElizabeth! I have even put yogurt drops in the bonding pouch to help entice them in (Ofi has escaped the cage a couple of times ). You are doing great NaeJ and you have made progress. I tried to move to the next step yesterday and slide my hand under my babes, nothing doing. They got very nervous and adjusted themselves to where they would not be in my hand. It is frustrating but I'm just gonna keep on trucking cause I know eventually we WILL get there.

You will absolutely get there abbey, and I tell you what happens, they decide when you are ready for them and then they open their little hearts to you! That's how my kodah was an now he is a bra baby. I still hear crabs when he doesn't want to do something and we are still working on him stayin on me but we get further every day and I finally learned how to listen to him and be ready for him and that was when all the magic began and naej you wll get there too, like bourbon said the most important thing ever is to be consistent, and when in doubt bourbon knows best keep workin hard and pouring your heart out!

What does the color behind their eye mean if you see it? I see it one mine all the time.

Nae - I just completely read through your post from beginning to the end. It's amazing the amount of progress you've made with them and that you now know why they're biting some days and not others!

It seems my little Bella is going to go through a nippy phase...Reading your posts has given me some ideas and encouragement.

And starting tonight, I'll be looking for the special things about Bella and Mia. And their pupil...that ought to be interesting...

This post is great. I just got two new little girls to add to my group and they are both very anti social so I'm gonna be joining you guys in trying to win their trust. I swear my little Tundra has learned bad language and calls me names and swears at me everytime I come near her...lol. She is the most vocal glider I have ever heard. I'll have to study the two of them today and see what I can find different in them.

It doesn't mean anything exceptthat you pay attention to your gliders well enough to notice, good for you! Many owners cannot list one special feature about their gliders because they don't ever take the time t truly learn them.

It doesn't mean anything exceptthat you pay attention to your gliders well enough to notice, good for you! Many owners cannot list one special feature about their gliders because they don't ever take the time t truly learn them.

Any everyone looking forthe pupil, post on here when you findit, I want to know! I swear when you find their pupil you find their soul!

Seriously Just Laughed Out Loud At My Desk!!

Mine only crab when they are in the pouch now. They may bite if I push things a little to quickly. I had to put them in the pouch the other day and good gravy it sounded like a battle in there. The open environment bonding pouch has worked wonders for my girls.

Yea I think pouch protective babies are the best, you spend so much more time wit them cuz they aren't hidden away I personally love it!

OK - So I haven't found three things yet that are different about each girl, but finding a couple on each so far!

I have to say, my babies aren't pouch protective (except a very rare nip when one just really doesn't want to come out). However...Bella has recently started getting very skittish and nervous. Nipping often and not coming to me like before. We've started with the licky treats...and it's helping a little.

I'm also much more concientous of Bella's movements and postures. I can tell when she is starting to stress now! I'm also not being nipped nearly as much. Woohoo!

And all of the comments of stepping back and taking things at their pace - Such a help!

It was time to get out of the tent last night. Mia willingly went into her pouch. Bella, however, was stressed and not going. I tried to persuade her with treats (Mia LOVED that part)...no go. I tried to coax her into the pouch with just a tiny nudge....no go. Ugh. So, I put Mia in the cage, gave Bella a couple minutes to calm down some, and went back to the tent with treats. After lots of saying "It's going to be ok" and a couple treats, she started to relax her posture, and I was able to scoop her up. Of course the sound of the tent zipper freaked her and she jumped again....but definitely a step in the right direction!

This weekend I should have LOTS of time with the girls in the evenings. A couple questions for those that are going throught the process....

1) I'm using Priscilla's diet and mealies are part of the protien source. I'm assuming it'd be best to use those as foraging treats and the others in their 'kitchen'? I've read about Bourbon wanting them to associate nothing they have to chew with me.

2) My girls get tent time every night for at least an hour. Bella, however, is becoming reluctant to come out of the cage...and Mia just sits in the tent waiting for Bella if I put her in alone. Do I just forgo tent time and try to keep Mia corralled in her cage while working with Bella?

3) When getting your babies to walk onto your hand...how long do you sit there and offer it as a perch?

Thanks!!

Ok answers to all 3:
1) bourbon does tell you not to associate chewing food with hands except in the case of mealies unless you have extreme biers (as far as I know from working with her) and it does not sound like this is ur problem at all. It sounds morelike mealies from th hand would work in ur favor for ur girls especially bella because she is becoming stressed and shy and to reverse that you have to show her first and foremost mommy is safe and nothing bad comes from mommy, and then teach her that mommy is the keeper of the good stuff and if she comes to mommy she will get yummy things. Mealies are working great for me and my baby (per bourbons instructions) I am ONLY allowed to feed live and the must come from my fingers I can't even use twezers. Then my rule is he only gets them in my bra during th day and at night he only gets them while he is on me, it is rlly hlping a lot with teaching him to want to be on me.

3) as far as working with bella crawling onto our hand, start this in the cage, put your arm in up to your elbow and just lay it on the bottom of the cage palm down and sit there like that until you want to go to bed, the more time ur arm spens in there the better, and when she does decide to approach you and crawl on you you can stroke hergently with your fingers bu if she runs away again let her. Once she is consistently staying on your arm in the cage ven hen you move, that is when I would try taking her out and wrking with her outside of the cage environment.

2) I would try bathroom time instead of tent time (this will give you more room to interact with you babies in full height so they get used to you standing and moving around with them. If you have a small cage or travel cage that you could put bella into you can bring her in the bathroom inthat and your other baby can roam he bathroom playing while you work with bella in a safe zone. If you don't have that then for now I wuld keep your girls in the cage so you can work on getting bella comfortable again, you want to work in her comfort zone.

I'm sorry these were answered out of order my cursor must have jumped while I was typing lol. I am gonna pm you about some other stuff too! Good luck

Ok so I haven't heard from anyone in a few days, I want to know how everyone is doing. As for my own update..... drumroll please..... kodah has no crabbed in 2 WHOLE days!!! And tonight he dove down my shirt for the first time ever, so id say as a whole we have almost reached our ultimate and I am sooooooo happy!!

Just so everyone knows, our ultimate goal was for him to become so close to me that he wants me above all else enough so that he will always stay on me and never leave me unless it is playtime. He is getting pretty close to this goal right now and currently we are also on a 30 day countdown to see if he can make it 30 days without crabbing, bourbon says if he does then I will never hear crabbing again unless he is absolutely petrified. I want this so bad for us and we our working our little bootys (and tails) off to get there.

Everyone keep posting updates, I think its really helping everyone here to hav the suport of this group! I can't wait to hear how everyone else has been doing!

That is wonderful Meg!

Meg - I love seeing the progress you're having with your little guy!

My little ones aren't pouch protective...so I feel a little odd posting here. But, I have been using so many of the techniques from you guys (and Meg was Awesome answering questions for me) that I'm just going to!

My girls and I had LOTS of quality time together this weekend!

We did bathroom time for this first time which was a totally new experience for them. And they actually stayed on me until they got comfortable with the new room! I was so happy. Bathroom time also allowed me to see how comfortable they are getting with my son (no worries anyone - everything he does is completely supervised!). They were jumping from the cabinet to his shoulder, chattering at him, begging for treats, and Bella even gave him kisses!! He was absolutely on cloud nine!

We also worked on them coming to my hand. Up to this point, Mia would occasionaly come to me when I offered my hand....Bella was very rare. So this weekend I let them play on their cage - when Mia would come to the side of the cage, I would put my hand out, palm down, with that 'L' shape. At first, she just looked at me like I was nuts....the second time she actually looked at my hand and jumped to my arm (better than nothing!), ran up to my shoulder and jumped back to the cage. This started a cycle where she would come to the side of the cage, jump to my arm, run up to my shoulder and then jump back to the cage. After a couple minutes, she stopped jumping to my arm and was climbing onto my hand! We played this game for a while...Bella watching pretty closely. Then Bella actually came down to try it! I was in shock! She only did it twice, but what a feeling.

Yesterday, Mia wanted to play the game again...alternating sides of the cage this time. I decided to take it a step farther and when she jumped to me, I would take a step away, and then back to the cage before she could jump back. Aparently this was even better and one step turned into walking across the room and back. It only took Bella a minute to realize we were going to walk around (which she loves) and she was joining in the game. And then they stopped jumping back to the cage! So, I walked around the living room once, and back to the game room. They jumped back onto the cage and came right back to me. The second time I walked around the living room, they refused to go back to their cage and wound up staying on me while I paced for 15 minutes before they jumped back.

We also did lots of licky treats this weekend....and I'm happy to report that for the first time in almost two weeks...Bella didn't nip me once last night!!!

Thanks to all of you for posting up your progress and the things you're trying with your babies. It is helping us so much!

oh my gosh tricia that is WONDERFUL!!! the game you were playing with your girls is referred to as playing tree, you are their tree and they jump off of and back to you, this is very intrumental in teaching them that you are in fact their permanent tree! i am so happy to hear of the progress you made and absolutely ecstatic to hear that even bella followed suit!!! and no nips you go girl you are doing just absolutely awesome!!

you are making wonderful progress with your girls, i am proud of you and this wasnt even my doing! and btw your girls do not have to be pouch protective to be a part of this group, we are just a bunch of people trying to get that forever bond with our babies and most of us are trying to surpass some struggle along the way to that, you totally fit in

wow, i am so excited for you guys, that made me smile so big to read that post!

Thanks Meg! I'm so excited about going an entire evening with no nipping!

And thanks for letting me be a part of the group. I know bonding takes loads of time...and they were pretty good and starting to trust me...BUT this weekend was wonderful.

I've been sooo worried about Bella going backwards instead of progressing. It's nice to have people to talk to about it!


Sooo - Who else has an update??

Everyone's progress is so encouraging! I worked days all last week so I went to bed before the babies even got up. I'm on nights this week and I'm looking forward to suggie play time!

I have been able to find Smith's distinguishing characteristics, but nothing about Wesson yet (I've been comparing Wesson to his twin brother to see if the things I notice about Wesson also occur with Smith and usually they do). I pulled their pouch out during the day while they were sleeping and looked at their eyes. Chloe's appeared to be brown, and Smith and Wesson's appeared gray. Jasmine wouldn't keep hers open long enough for me to inspect them haha. At night, I keep the bedroom light dimmed so I don't leave enough light to see into their eyes. MeganElizabeth mentioned that "when you find their pupil, you find their soul" and I feel as though I'm missing something. I saw their tiny little pupil, but didn't feel as though I found their soul.

To be honest, I'm starting to feel a little frustrated because not only do I not have the time to be "consistent" with them, but I don't feel like I'm making progress any more. In fact, even though I've been wearing the smelly sweatshirt and bringing yogurt or pudding in with me when I go play with them, Wesson is still nipping. I don't *feel* frustrated when I go in to play with them, so I don't think I'm giving off any vibes that they're reacting to. I just want a close, bonded relationship with them so badly and I don't know what to do to show them I'm a trustworthy person.

Even though I haven't spent much time with them in the last week, I do go in there every day to feed them and pet them while they're still asleep and tell them I love them and give them kisses. Many times, I'll give them yogies or fruit to make up for the fact that I just woke them up haha. (Don't worry, I just put the yoggies or fruit in their pouch with them... I don't feed it to them so they don't associate my fingers with something they need to chew)

I plan to spend a lot of time with them tonight and for the rest of the week as they're usually awake by the time I get home from work. I'm looking forward to seeing them because I miss our play time when I'm working days. This summer is going to be hectic both at work and with vacations and such so I feel bad that I can't establish more of a routine with them. I know it's only making the bonding process take longer but I don't know what I can do about it. I wish I had an office job so I could take them to work with me and spend more time with them while they're asleep, but I work in a lab and around chemicals and I'm thinking that wouldn't be the best place for them.

Lonnea as long as your time with the boys is positive you don't need to feel like you need to be with them every day. Even just wearing them in a bonding bag for an hour while they sleep helps.

I think you have been doing great.

ok, so what i have said about seeing into their soul, its something that you may doubt yourself on because you may let it be something you think so hard on trying to just feel it that you miss it, i did this for a while (and bourbon was my mentor through this process so all i kept telling myself was i cant possibly be connected enough to feel this yet if bourbon can feel it cuz shes way better than me) DO NOT let yourself believe this, while bourbon is incredible beyond her own realizations and an absolute magician/saviour/every good word in the world you could insert here lol, we do not love our babies any less because we are less experienced, and if the love is there i promise you can make this connection. when you see there soul, or rather when you are looking for it, clear your mind of everything but your baby, have only thoughts of your little suggie and look into their eyes and hold theire little gaze and let it just wrap around your heart, the feeling of warmth and love that comes over you while you do this, that is seeing their soul, you connect in a moment of love so strong and all you see is eachother, when that happens youve done it! just keep trying i promise when you are feeling all the right things it will happen, dont force it though, if you try and do it through thinking about it youll miss it, just let it happen.

as far as inconsistencies, i know it is rlly hard when you are working a changing schedule to have availability, and i understand work not being a safe place to bring them to. i cannot bring my baby to work with me to either of my jobs because at one i work with a child with autism who kicks and hits a lot and i cant risk him hitting the baby and my other job is with food and deep frying which is a very bad combination with gliders for obvious reasons lol. so i know its hard to work and leave the babies at home, and it is also hard to make time for them around your schedule, i have school and it is very hard for me to stay up late enough to play every single night. i stay up late as many nights of the week as i can, but an alternative to this is to start waking your babies progressively earlier and earlier each night until they are trained to wake up at a certain time like 7 pm or whatever time it is that works best for you. i am going to start working on this with kodah because although right now i can spend most nights with him playing for at least an hour, when the fall semester starts ill have to be asleep much earlier so i am gonna start adjusting him to my schedule so we will still be able to play together and work around the issue. you may really benefit from trying this as the more time you can get with them consistently the better. as far as the other consistencies such as bringing in the yogurt, wearing the stinky sweatshirt, and all of that, you are still doing all those thing and i know it doesnt seem like it is helping right now but it will over time, and right now in your situation time is key. i know it is hard to do but just keep having patience, asmuch as you can muster, i promise you will continue to see changes and if you workhard enough you will get the relationship, its there you just have to discover it! something that worked seriously like a magic trick for me was live mealies from my hand, i know in all other instances you should not give them food they have to chew directly from you hand, but in the case of live bugs (the thing they love most in the world) it was EXTREMELY beneficial to our relationship to have this treat come only from momma because he learned that to get it he had to be with me and be sweet, and his behavior has done a 180 and he will literally claw his was back to me during the day if i try to set him down. at night and in the early morning when he is in play mode he is still not great at staying on and coming back t momma but we are working on this with mealies and my trick is to not only give them from my hand directly but to ONLY give them when he is on me, maybe this will help you too, i would at least give it a shot, and trust me use live meal worms it works a 100% better. i hope some of this helps you, keep updating us and maybe together we can crack the code of your little boys!!

I agree with Meganelizabeth. Also, don't worry that the relationship is taking longer to build. Mine is taking a little longer as well. The problem with consistency does hamper the process a little but it will happen. Sometimes I don't think I'm doing a thing right that Bourbon has told me to do, but then a little glimmer of progress will show me that it is working, just a little more slowly. My mantra is to look for the positive every time I work with these littles cuties.

ok everyone, how are you all doing i havent heard any updates recently!? kodah and i are fantastic, it has been one week since i have heard that little sound of terror, only one day since hes made a crab of irritation but we will get there on that front, it will just take a little more time because he is fussy in the mornings (that is the only time he still makes the little grumbles at me lol) but i am working on putting an end to that as well! so how is everyone else, i wanna hear some updates!!!

Hi I have been working these last 2 weeks with Bourdon. I have two pouch protective gliders Chloe and Mojo. Chloe is my quiet and ever sooooo stubborn one and Mojo is my curious one. With Bourdons help and guidance I have been able take them from crabbing at the lest little noise or breath I took, to being able to put my hand on top of them with out to much fuss. The other day Mojo had his nail caught in the pouch I had to take the pouch out of the cage with both of them in there and believe it or not neither one of them made a peep and they both held still so I could get Mojo nail unstuck Now remember these two have never been held or really even petted (we are still working on that) It was one of those OH MY GOD moments that Bourdon talks about

Aww that is so awesome to hear! Congratulations to you and your babies we definitely love the omg moments