My baby has been really sick and i had no idea why, and still dont. Today i went back to a second vet and she gave me some horrifying news - in the last 2 weeks she has seen 20+ gliders all bought from the same place (a mall) and all by the same company. 95% have died. She claims that they have done everything and nothing has worked - calcium injections, steroids, antibiotics, fluids for rehydration, and even treatment for heavy metal toxicity...they just keep dying.

I dont know what to do and i am just keeping my fingers crossed that my girl is one of the lucky ones. She got an injection of steroids, some more SubQ fluid with calcium, and i am home with a calcium supplement and antibiotic to give her for the next few weeks if she makes it.

I dont know if i should go to the press, or what to do at this point. I am so sad and feel so much guilt.

I would go to the press if I were you. sounds like a (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets booth or another mill breeder booth.

oh my god, praying for your baby. i also read your post on
lgg. i hope you post this there as well.

what is going on? this is very scary.

regards,
nancy in detroit

Oh NO!! Prayers being sent for your little girl! I hope she pulls through!

I have no idea - (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets thinks it has to do with their cages, but I'm not so sure. My sister got one at the same time and started hers right off on the HML diet and her baby is thriving.

and i just want to add that this is from ONE vet - the other vet i went to yesterday has seen 5.

daisysmama,
what kind of cage is your sister using? there have been
alot of sick gliders mentioned here and on lgg regarding
a certain cage, i believe you had the cage that is in question.

regards,
nancy in detroit

She has the same cage too Nancy. The only difference between ours is the diet, and the fact that hers was bigger (older?) when we got them.

Oh Sweety - Keeping you both in my prayers. sounds like you're doing everything you can to help her.

Tell your sis to get it out of the cage!! Heavy metal toxicity WILL take longer to show signs/symptoms the larger the animal, once the signs/symptoms show up its darn near impossible to treat as they are already to far gone!!

I also would like to ask that people from Pocket Pets please stop calling me, as I do not wish to discuss this further over the phone. I know you are reading this, and I would be happy to discuss this here where others can weigh in on the situation as well, and the issue is made public.

Please give this link The Mill Breeder Project to your veterinarian so that she may give her findings to Linda S the head of The mill breeder Project.

This information is vital to the mill breeder Project.

Sending prayers and good thoughts out to you for your baby.

Thats a good point Chris - i'll let her know.

I got my first glider from Pocket Pets back around Thanksgiving...she ate the pellets they gave me for about 2 weeks or so then I didnt research bought a much better pellet from Exotic Nutrition. A few weeks after that I made my first batch of BML...she is now one plump happy picture of health little girl. I truly can't say that Pocket Pets lied to me about anything....They fail to tell you alot though. I would never buy from them again if for no other reason they target kids in the malls....It is my opinion that gliders are NOT a suitable pet for children...I'm sure most people on this site would agree with me on that.

Gary

I agree with you Gary 110%!

I hope your baby pulls through and your sister's does as well. Like what was said about it just taking longer to do anything, she may be able to help hers live if she switches now! Both your and your sister's babies are in my thoughts and prayers!

Contact Val at www.thesweetspot.forumotion.net as they are tracking these problems

(PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets babies are NOT the only ones across the country that we are seeing these problems with...It does appear at this stage that it is linked more with the cage wire type than anything else

Does anyone know the cage type in question? Coating type? who makes it?

daisymama,
there have been gliders dying and they all have 1 thing in
common-they were in martins cages. they also have the symptoms your glider is showing. please use or buy a different cage. there is alot of trouble and everything points to the martins cages.
the info is at lgg abt. these martins cages.
the person that wrote abt. his glider said giving alot of
fluids, feedings, antibiotics, etc. helped his glider.


regards,
nancy in detroit

Ditto Chris,

just contacted a friend and tried to warn of the wire cages JUST got for babies, lost babies shortly after switching to the coated wire cage, good breeder babies are being affected also.

Please contact Val

Giardia and parisites is another thing vets need to be checking for in (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets gliders.

If you are experiencing these problems, please contact Val, LSardou, or Bourbon on the issue. They are all in contact with vets on this and have seen/heard multiple cases.

The first thing you can do at home, is remove your gliders from that cage. If they area seizing, they need to be in a hospital-sized smaller cage anyway. The pop-up travel kennels at Walmart are an excellent choice here, as they can be laid on their side to reduce risk of falls, and are also softer than a metal cage, and very quick and cheap to acquire.

I'm sorry about your baby ....

Is this similar to the problem PrincessMegi had a few years ago? She bought a different kind of wire from Kuberantz and it had some sort of coating on it that was releasing toxic fumes.

Does anyone remember that? - or could contact Megi. I seem to recall that she took the cage to a power washer/car wash and the detergent there was able to take that toxic coating off. But I don't remember what they ever decided the coating was.

Wait... Martins cages?? I just recently got Nox's new cage from there! Is it the cages ordered from Martins? Or just the ones that the mill breeders are using that are made of similar materials?

I didn't think she got it from Klubertanz but off ebay? I know it was blue coating on the wire, not the black like the Klubertanz.

From what I am understanding,
many members have had problems with Martin's Cages lately, having ill gliders. It is believed that there is something wrong with the recent "batch" of PVC coated wire.

Pocket Pets starter cage is PVC coated wire as well, and now problems seem to be arising with use of that cage.

To me, it appears that there is just something wrong with the wire now. I, personally, would not put my gliders into a PVC coated wire cage until everything is sorted out.

Daisymoma, what did you do to feel guilty about? Nothing that I can see. Sometimes things are just beyond your control so there is NO SENSE in beating yourself up for it.

All this talk about heavy metal toxicity, has anyone actually contacted the cage manufacturer to see what paint they use on their cages? Are they aware that there is even an issue? MSD sheets will tell you everything you need to know about chemical compounds but you have to know the brand name for the paint in question first. I'm also assuming that the vets think there may be a chance of lead poisoning, thus the heavy metal issue. I'll make a prediction. Once it's determined that the coating is the cause they will find that these cages all stem from specific lot numbers and the coating in question has been provided by a new vendor. Or worse yet, they really cheaped out and went to a Chinese manufacturer. Anyone remember what happened with McDonalds and their Chinese toys? These are not isolated incidents either.

ValkyrieMome, this is another reason that cage materials need to be scrutinized very carefully. The purchased wire you're referring to is probably coated with a galvanizing material after welding is done. This is done to keep the wire from rusting. However, this coating causes the urinary tract infections you're probably all aware of but in the wrong environment, such as around a heat source if does and will give off a lethal fume. I know this for a fact from doing welding over the years. This is something you do not want to do without proper protection.

What would be the best alternative, then, if I needed to set up a secondary cage? He likes to chew a bit on the edges of things, so I'd been worried about using a mesh cage, and while I'd thought about making a PVC framed one, don't some of those designs use the same coated wire as Martins?

Nox has seemed mostly fine so far, but... :/ (For me, as well as anyone else in my position who may be reading this) Since he's been in a PVC coated cage, what should I tell the vet to check for, next time I go? If there's a test they can do to see if there's a toxicity problem now rather than waiting, better safe than sorry I guess.

Something else that might be a good question, though:

Is it a problem with the PVC itself being toxic? Or maybe just a problem with a coating that could be washed off? Or just the PVC 'off-gassing'? Granted, I'm no expert on cages, but I'd be curious.

Actually, no - it is a coating on the wire of the cage - seemed to be like an oily - possibly petroleum-based - film. Similar to the kind of fumes that iridescent materials give off and make gliders ill, this was giving off some sort of fume. We know that there is a distinct smell to iridescent materials, and have come to recognize that smell as being a red flag. I wonder if these cages have a similar kind of smell?

And, I thought the galvanized thing had been disproved? I don't want this thread to get off track - so please check in the Fact or Fiction section to verify.

I am saddened that those babies all died, and I pray that we find a way to resolve this.

Eshaw has a good point about contacting the manufacturer, but also mentioned that manufacturers if looking for cheaper ways of doing things may look overseas for parts/coverings where codes MAY not be as strict and it is harder to quality control things.

I personally would never use a PVC coated cage. Ever. When I first got my gliders I researched places to buy cages and found one supplier who is himself a bird owner and he took me in his office and showed me files of reports of toxicity of cages being sold for birds and other pets.

It was to say the least, alarming. So there is ONE supplier I will buy a cage from. One who cares about the animals going into them, and gets regular testing done on his cages.

Truth be told, I am uneasy about some homemade cages being made from PVC. The type used for water lines (white plastic) I am sure is safe, but the type used for electrical conduit may not be and I wouldnt use it. I also wouldnt use any plastic coated wire for toys. But will say that the exposure to that is far less than the exposure to a whole PVC coated cage.

Dont mean to hijack the thread here...

I, too, use a Martin's Cage and have for several months. I have had no problems and my gliders have suffered no ill effects. I know that everyone is talking about Martin's cages being the possible cause for this issue. Has it been determined that ALL of these cases were purchased at the same time and in the same batch? And did they ALL order directly through Martin's? And now this one, Daisy's baby - her cage came from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets so it's obviously the Klubertanz material but was it purchased from Martin's? Martin's sells cages not only for sugar gliders but for other animals, as well. Do we know if any other animals have suffered the same ill effects?

$800 in vet bills, a dead glider? or $200 for a new cage? You do the math... Why take the risk given all these reports? Just my opinion.

We don't know if these cases are related to pvc cage wire, but if there is a potential risk I would weigh my options carefully.

I have a cage made of PVC pipes and a "garden mesh" or plastic fencing and we've had no problems. The fencing just to add, isn't PVC coated wire as I didn't want stuff coming off. Actually it's what many toys are made out of!

It's actually the cage they came with just a little redone to add doors and change the fencing which was screen held on with velcro. I'll upload a pic to show. We haven't had any problems but it is the white water ones.



The fencing is what our kitchen is made out of and what has the Wodent Wheel held into place.



Just a picture of the kitchen with Casanova wondering what I was doing lmao!

Other than the frame any PVC is covered with fleece sleeves for them to climb on.

**Cage is pretty bare cause I was cleaning it and the gliders were in my closet sleeping away in their "mom's cleaning our cage" cage haha!

Now, I hope that these babies didn't die in vain and we can find out what is going on with the ones that are still alive. Thoughts and prayers to all those suffering with their babies

Kristi, I don't think it is an issue with PVC pipes themselves but the PVC plastic coating on the wire of certain cages.

Oh haha yeah probably but I know JillMarie was talking about PVC cages so I just thought I'd mention mine and that we haven't had problems and it is the water PVC not the other kind.

I hope we hear some good news soon on the gliders and what's the cause.

I was saying the white type made for water usage was fine

Oh lol yeah I was kinda bouncing off the walls from my coffee and probably read it a little too fast

But... Any updates on how these babies are doing?

lets see if i can answer some of these q's..

alden, no smell, or oilyishness.. no way to forsee this issue..

the plastic mesh is fine

this is not affecting all pvc coated wire.. just from certain suppliers..

no Pocket Pets does NOT purchase their cages from Martins..
martins obviously got a hold of some of this wire before Pocket Pets did. they both however chose to use "quality wire" it is that "quality wire from a quality supplier that is the issue. the problem being we don't know how far down the line it goes before the "modification" was made. it is unknown as to what exact modification was made and at what level. Pocket Pets uses 2 places that make cages for them exclusively, 2 different wire suppliers. it is only the one supplier.

the reason for the hush hush is because they are waiting tests results to come back so they can figure out EXACTLY what the problem is... the fear is that with a lot of attention, the "culprit, may hide the wire and when it is found out what it is.. that there will be no wire to prove it. then later on single rolls be sold...

at this time money is not the problem, finding out what exactly is causing this within the labs etc.. is..

some vets don't want to treat without definitive proof, test results etc..

getting them from their cage and getting as many fluids as possible as early as possible is the main thing.. there are far more gliders surviving this than dying from it, so something is working. a lot of different meds have been tried and many others still being tried.

I think everyone understands the frustration and the pain that is going on with this and hopefully everyone understands this is not a martins and pocket pet issue, but a wire issue that may expand out much further than the glider community. hopefully the test results will come in today or tomorrow and then the "culprit" can be caught this time.

this is a very tragic situation with many victims as many different levels. concern is always about the gliders, but there is also a huge concern the wire may be hidden, and brought out later to cause even more havoc.

for what is now common knowledge the cages bought from martins since oct of last year are at risk, but not necessarily affected. pocket pet cages seem to be localized to sales a couple of months ago.

this seems to be a slow gradual affecting toxin of some sort, it seems to go into the system at very small amounts, unknown whether it is being ingested by them cleaning their feet and grooming. being absorbed through their skin or whether this is an inhalant toxin it is unknown whether it is on the wire or within the pvc coating itself.

i hope this answers some of the questions.

without some more definitive some of the vets don't want to treat..

so....

remove the glider from the cage (I am suggesting the pop up kennels from walmart, (makes great travel cages later on) do not use anything that was in that pouch.

offer your glider lots of fluids to flush whatever this is through the system, i know of several gliders that it has taken 5 days or more to get better..

if it is a pocket pet glider, please contact their customer service.

I'm curious...how long did it take for the symptoms to crop up after the cage purchase and are the time frames typical in all or most cases?

about 2 months after the gliders are placed in them, it is typical; however there have been gliders like in callejeans case where it took 4 months to show the first signs, and as soon as 1 month.. but the average has been 2 months

Thanks, B...have had and been using my Martin's now since December 11, 2011 and to date, no issues. I'll remain cautious and pay attention but so far, so good. Thanks for the info.

without it being known what exactly the issue is, there is no way to know if all of the wire in a roll is affected, or if this is a hit and miss throughout the roll, or even if only a few rolls in a lot.. there just isn't enough definitive information known.. about the only thing known is what it isn't.. LOL

Clear as mud...LOLOL

This is so sad. Hugs to all those who have sick babies or lost babies. I just want to cry now. Heart breaking!

Just wanted to update everyone. My girl is doing better. She still isnt drinking much, but we are giving her anitbiotics and vit c supplements from the vet, and her tremmors have calmed down and she is much more active. She is eating OK, and was crabbing at me all night (a good sign for her...she really likes my husband better who was out last night, haha). We still have her in the tub, but for now its working well until we get a new cage.

I did talk to Pocket Pets and they were VERY helpful, and i can tell they are just crushed by this too and doing everything in their power to figure out what is going on and to stop it. It was easy for me to blame them at first, but they are totally stepping up and i really respect that. If anyone else's affected glider is from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets - i urge you to call them.

I'll continue to push the fluids, and may even take her back to the vet for another dose of SubQ fluids, just to help her out. I also just learned that my shipment of HPW complete will arrive today, so i am excited to get her on another diet too.

I'm optimistically hopefull and extremly thankful to Pocket Pets for being so receptive.

Hey DaisysMama...just as a side note here, you could get her one of the pop up dog kennels from Wal-Mart...at least she'd be in a cage and be able to climb around and such and might feel a bit more secure. Just wanted to throw it out there.

I'm so glad to hear she's doing better and on the mend. I'll continue my thoughts for her.