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danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders?

Posted By: jag

danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/07/09 10:23 PM

Is this true?

I was told that if you have glider in pouch and cook with teflon the chemical released are toxic to gliders?
Posted By: LSardou

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/07/09 11:19 PM

To be on the safe side, I would suggest not to have your glider on you while cooking.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/07/09 11:19 PM

Overheating a teflon coated pan produces a gas that is toxic to birds and small animals. If you use pans with teflon on them then you need to leave a door open or keep your vent hood on high.

I would recommend that you NEVER cook ANYTHING while you have a glider in a bonding pouch. Too risky! What would happen if your glider got loose and jumped into a pot of boiling liquid? There is no way your glider could survive that!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/07/09 11:21 PM

I hate cooking, yet alone cooking with small animals on me lol.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/07/09 11:25 PM

if you mean cook with teflon coated (non-stick) cookware, then the answer is no. It is suspected that PTFE (teflon) COULD leach into foods being cooked IF it was not properly applied to the pan surface. However, this has not yet been shown to happen in any appreciable amounts. Breathing in of any released PTFE vapors is even less likely and has not to my knowledge ever been demonstrated to happen under any "normal" cooking conditions. Urban Myth.
Posted By: LabNGliderMom

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/07/09 11:57 PM

You also shouldn't have your glider's cage in an area near your kitchen if your pans are non stick
Posted By: Yaniah

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 12:28 AM

When ever I cook, I put who ever I have on me at the time, in the next room as a precaution. As I am always afraid I will burn them or they will get to hot.
Posted By: jag

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 01:26 AM

i carry the pouch in between layers of my tank top which are elastic kinda picture tank top with built in bra with a t-shirt over the top...tucked into my waist band:)no way they are getting out.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 01:41 AM

I just wouldn't cook with mine on me. Too many things can happen. I do take them with me if I'm in the kitchen preparing food that isn't cooked. But - grease splatters ... or ... smoke ... too many things!
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 01:58 AM

I gave away all of my Teflon coated things years ago.. just in case.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 02:20 AM

I did, too - when I first got birds. I won't have it in my house! It just scares me.

But - even without Tefflon - I can't imagine cooking with my gliders on me. I won't cook when the bird is on her play perch either - unless I move her to another room. Too many ways a horrible accident could happen. I guess I just know too many horror stories from other pet owners.

I do like to think I can learn from the mistakes of others and don't need to repeat them ALL myself!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 04:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Avri
if you mean cook with teflon coated (non-stick) cookware, then the answer is no. It is suspected that PTFE (teflon) COULD leach into foods being cooked IF it was not properly applied to the pan surface. However, this has not yet been shown to happen in any appreciable amounts. Breathing in of any released PTFE vapors is even less likely and has not to my knowledge ever been demonstrated to happen under any "normal" cooking conditions. Urban Myth.


I completely, totally and vehemently disagree with all of that Avri. We had a rather LONG discussion on this issue awhile back right here on GC. It may be safe for HUMANS, but in fact, when OVERHEATED a gas is released by Teflon coated cooking vessels that is HIGHLY toxic to birds and small mammals. There were many good articles sited in that other thread, but I have a nasty headcold/upper respiratory thing going on right now and I don't feel like digging the old thread up. I am assuming it would be in the health section though.
Posted By: pbear3s

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 12:12 PM

My sister had birds for years and never cooked with teflon because she was told it was bad for them. I also read that it's bad for sugar gliders. I don't cook with it.
Posted By: jag

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 12:39 PM

thanks for all the replys!
Posted By: gliderma

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 01:26 PM

I don't know much about the teflon issue, but I would NEVER have my gliders anywhere near any type of cooking. Your elastic shirt is no guarantee, I'm sorry, but I don't see any reason to have them on you at that time. You wouldn't let a 2 year old child be there, would you? Same difference! Things can go BAD so FAST! Not worth the risk!
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 01:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Avri
if you mean cook with teflon coated (non-stick) cookware, then the answer is no. It is suspected that PTFE (teflon) COULD leach into foods being cooked IF it was not properly applied to the pan surface. However, this has not yet been shown to happen in any appreciable amounts. Breathing in of any released PTFE vapors is even less likely and has not to my knowledge ever been demonstrated to happen under any "normal" cooking conditions. Urban Myth.


NOT an urban myth. I have two friends who lost birds because they, too, thought it must be a myth. After all, they had cooked several times with teflon and the birds hadn't died, right? ONE time overheating it and both of their birds died.
Birds have very sensitive respiratory systems. We are still studying the respiratory systems of gliders, but who really wants to take that chance?

I, too, got rid of all the teflon in my home the day Pickard (one of my B&G macaws) came into my life. I will not loose my babies - feathered or furry - just to keep a pan.

Every responsible bird owner, breeder, rehabber, vet and specialist that I have ever met will tell you the dangers of teflon, and most of them have horror stories to go along with it. When I was rescueing birds, I had several that were supposed to come in because they were ill, only to be told that they died that day. Necropsy on one of them suggested that he died from the use of teflon in the home.
Posted By: Feather

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 02:26 PM

Quote:
NOT an urban myth. I have two friends who lost birds because they, too, thought it must be a myth. After all, they had cooked several times with teflon and the birds hadn't died, right? ONE time overheating it and both of their birds died.
Birds have very sensitive respiratory systems. We are still studying the respiratory systems of gliders, but who really wants to take that chance?


thumb I am with Val on this one. At every seminar I have ever been to on parrots there is literature about the dangers of Teflon and parrots.

I don't use Teflon with my parrots or gliders in the room. Too big of a risk.

It only takes once to injure your beloved pets lungs and I am not going to take that chance.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 03:47 PM

Please notice that I said under normal cooking conditions. On of my roommates at college (15yrs ago) did his MSc in Polymer materials (I majored in materials engineering), one of his thesis projects required the measurement of the off gassing from teflon coated pans under various heat regimes.

The bottom line was very simple, in order to get ANY measurable off gassing you would have to leave a teflon coated pan on the highest heat (with nothing in the pan) for at least 15 mins.

So if you stood there for 15 minutes with the empty pan on high, you could endanger any small animals you were holding. If you left the animals close by in an unventilated kitchen and forgot the pan, then that could also cause problems.

However, the original question was whether there would be an issue while you were cooking, to which the answer is simply no. I still wouldn't recommend bringing any small animal near a hot surface. But under normal cooking conditions, off-gassing PTFE is not an issue.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 03:57 PM

FYI

To what temperature must PTFE be heated to be toxic?

Never use PTFE-coated drip pans in a household with birds.

Under normal cooking conditions PTFE-coated cookware is stable and safe. Many studies have found that PTFE-coated pans must be heated to above 536°F to release toxic particles and fumes, in a reaction called “pyrolysis.” This is a very high temperature, and is rarely reached during normal cooking. Most cooking in PTFE-coated cookware is performed at temperatures between 250° and 400°F. On the other hand, if a PTFE-coated pan is allowed to boil dry or an unfilled pan is heated on HIGH, toxic fumes can result. PTFE-coated drip pans (pans under the burners) will reach over 600°F or higher within minutes during normal use because of their close proximity to the heating element of the burner. Never use PTFE-coated drip pans in a household with birds.
Posted By: suggiemom1980

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 04:04 PM

There are now PTFE-free pans and skillets available. That's what I use. Even then, I would never let one of my babies be in the kitchen while I'm cooking a meal. Like Robin said, too many horror stories!
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 04:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Avri
But under normal cooking conditions, off-gassing PTFE is not an issue.

Your research and studies may have proven it takes 15 minutes.

My experience and research has proven this is simply NOT true.

Under NORMAL conditions - say, frying an egg, or making a grill cheese sandwich - birds will and have died. Gliders respiratory systems may or may not be as sensitive? I don't know. I am not willing to chance it.

If you want some of the research, Google "Teflon deaths in birds." There is an article "The Silent Killer" which details how NORMAL cooking temperatures can and will kill birds. (280 degrees = not at all abnormally high)

Polytetraflouethylene is known by the brand name Teflon. However, there are many other brand names that are also polytetraflouethylene. Some of these are: Silverstone, Fluron, Supra, Excalibur, Greblon, Xylon, Duracote, Resistal, Autograph and T-Fal are just a few.

Some Products That Use Polytetraflouethylene: Heat lamps; Portable heaters; Sole plates on irons; Ironing board covers; Burners on stove tops; Drip pans for burners; Broiler pans; Griddles; Many cooking utensils; Woks; Waffle makers; Electric skillets; Deep fryers, crock pots; Hot air popcorn poppers; Coffee makers; Bread makers; Non-stick rolling pins; Corkscrews; Pizza pans

And - the heating light bulbs you use for reptiles and the bulbs over your stove!
Posted By: Feather

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 05:16 PM

Most of the studies that are done involving the gases given off by teflon that has been allowed to super heat is in regards to gases that would harm a person.

Birds have unique lung and air sack structures that enable them to breathe and fly. Therefore they are more susceptable to gases given off by teflon.

Also our small pets cannot tolerate the amount of toxins in the environment that a person can tolerate. I do not recomment having your gliders, parrots or other small pets in the kitchen when you are cooking. Besides the teflon danger there is the danger of boiling water, hot oil.....

Plus you never know when you will have a kitchen accident that results in an overturned pan of hot water or oil or heavens forbid a kitchen fire.

Lets face it people accident happen that is why they are called accident. Lets just be safe and keep our beloved pets out of harms way in the first place.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 05:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Feather
Most of the studies that are done involving the gases given off by teflon that has been allowed to super heat is in regards to gases that would harm a person.

Birds have unique lung and air sack structures that enable them to breathe and fly. Therefore they are more susceptable to gases given off by teflon.

Also our small pets cannot tolerate the amount of toxins in the environment that a person can tolerate. I do not recomment having your gliders, parrots or other small pets in the kitchen when you are cooking. Besides the teflon danger there is the danger of boiling water, hot oil.....

Plus you never know when you will have a kitchen accident that results in an overturned pan of hot water or oil or heavens forbid a kitchen fire.

Lets face it people accident happen that is why they are called accident. Lets just be safe and keep our beloved pets out of harms way in the first place.



But that would mean I'd just have to use common sense when handling my pets - and I wouldn't be able to blame the big bad chemical companies!

Sorry couldn't resist the sarcasm. I don't really mean to be rude but holding pets while cooking just doesn't seem at all ok - and blaming the frying pan coating is just a little silly to me.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 05:47 PM

Some Teflon myths:

"Teflon starts emitting fumes from the start of heating. It does not have to be a high temperature or for an extended length of time to cause death to your bird. Small birds breathing these fumes for only a few seconds took as long as 24 hours to die.

Many people think that Teflon is only dangerous if the pan burns."

Teflon poisoning in humans can cause flu-like symptoms.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying glid - 09/08/09 08:18 PM

I too agree that Teflon (or whichever brand name it goes by) is dangerous for BIRDS. This has been well known in the pet bird community for decades. Whatever you want to call 'normal cooking conditions' may vary, but the fact that it is downright commonplace for birds to die as a result of overheated Teflon pans tells me that it can and does happen under conditions that can and do occur in the home.

I say it is downright commonplace because most avian vets I've discussed it with (I have a parrot too, and the main glider vets in town are also avian vets) have firsthand experience with a bird dying this way and it is well documented to happen in home environments.

Originally Posted By: Avri
But that would mean I'd just have to use common sense when handling my pets - and I wouldn't be able to blame the big bad chemical companies!


Okay, I'll forgive the sarcasm, but I still have to call you on it. exclamation Would it be a lack of common sense for someone to keep their pet bird in a cage in the living room adjacent to the kitchen? I don't think so, especially if they either hadn't heard of the Teflon issue or had been assured by someone well versed in chemistry such as yourself that it was an urban myth. But there are many cases of pet birds dying in just such a situation.

I don't consider the chemical companies big nor bad. Teflon is a great product and I would have a whole set of non-stick cookware if I didn't have a bird in my home. Better living through chemistry, I say! But since I do have a beloved parrot whom I raised from 'eggdom' (I used to have a breeding pair) 13 years ago, I don't use it. My omelets suffer for it too. ohwell

As for it (ie the gas, not cooking in general) being dangerous for gliders, I doubt that it is. A bird's respiratory system really is far, FAR different from mammals. But most of us in the glider community tend to err on the side of caution wherever possible, so I'm with the not cooking with bra babies group.
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 10:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Avri
Please notice that I said under normal cooking conditions. On of my roommates at college (15yrs ago) did his MSc in Polymer materials (I majored in materials engineering), one of his thesis projects required the measurement of the off gassing from teflon coated pans under various heat regimes.

The bottom line was very simple, in order to get ANY measurable off gassing you would have to leave a teflon coated pan on the highest heat (with nothing in the pan) for at least 15 mins.

So if you stood there for 15 minutes with the empty pan on high, you could endanger any small animals you were holding. If you left the animals close by in an unventilated kitchen and forgot the pan, then that could also cause problems.

However, the original question was whether there would be an issue while you were cooking, to which the answer is simply no. I still wouldn't recommend bringing any small animal near a hot surface. But under normal cooking conditions, off-gassing PTFE is not an issue.


There is so much wrong with this thinking. An emergency could happen that could cause you to abandon a stove forgetting it is on, it would NOT take high heat for a pan to burn whether it had anything in it or not if left for even a small amount of time.

Scenerio: Someone suddenly bangs on your door screaming there is an emergency, you open the door to see someone bleeding or worse... a sudden fire in the building... an earthquake (happened here a year and a half ago!)... a sudden storm... There are many many ways something could go wrong, why not just use a different pan? I use iron skillets and ss cookware, have all of my life, I did buy some non-stick pans and a large electric cooker. When I read on a government site about the warning of using teflon (it didn't mention it had to burn, just use it!) I got rid of all of it.

My gliders mean the world to me. I used to have every plant imaginable in my house...till I got my gliders. I gave them all away too. The only safe plants to me are FAKE with no wires now...that's what I have.

I just don't understand what the issue is about a cooking pan. It certainly isn't worth a gliders' life.

Then again, I am one of those people that put furniture in storage to give my glider kids more room to play! roflmao
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 10:07 PM

and...for Heaven sake, NO! Never take your gliders near any area where cooking with a stove or hot foods is being done!! Not even a "cool touch" deep fryer, you have to open it at some point! IMO, keep all animals and small children OUT of the kitchen and away from hot surfaces or grills!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 10:25 PM

But I was looking forward to cooking. clown
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 10:50 PM

How on earth does anyone manage to keep birds if this stuff is so toxic? How do you even know you have teflon if that is just the brand name, does that include ALL non-stick pans?
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 11:11 PM

Yes, it does include ALL non-stick pans.
Posted By: jag

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 11:28 PM

again thanks for all the responses. I asked a simple question

Im new at this, I am a very responsible pet owner and Im doing my best to get these girls where they need to be on the right diet living space etc is it really necessary to keep repeating the same thing that has been said multiple times here?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/08/09 11:32 PM

Avri....you wouldn't by any chance be a commission based sales person for Teflon are ya? Cuz it sure sounds like a sales pitch to me!
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/09/09 01:03 AM

Originally Posted By: jag
again thanks for all the responses. I asked a simple question

Im new at this, I am a very responsible pet owner and Im doing my best to get these girls where they need to be on the right diet living space etc is it really necessary to keep repeating the same thing that has been said multiple times here?


Jag, it isn't really about you and your question any longer. Please don't take it personally.

You will see this often around here. Someone will ask a question which will start a healthy debate. People want to contribute their experiences and opinions, some people might disagree. The conversation/ discussion takes on a life of it's own - far after the original question has been answered.

The forum mods are good about making sure that a discussion does stick to the original topic - but it rarely sticks to just answering the original question.

Please don't get discouraged. It is just that you asked a question that got people thinking and wanting to talk about it.

And - thanks, Laurie. No kidding, right?
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/09/09 01:04 AM

Originally Posted By: lovely1inred
How on earth does anyone manage to keep birds if this stuff is so toxic? How do you even know you have teflon if that is just the brand name, does that include ALL non-stick pans?


I use cast iron. It is non-stick, also, without the chemicals.

I just avoid all non-stick wares.
Posted By: jag

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/09/09 01:18 AM

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
Originally Posted By: jag
again thanks for all the responses. I asked a simple question

Im new at this, I am a very responsible pet owner and Im doing my best to get these girls where they need to be on the right diet living space etc is it really necessary to keep repeating the same thing that has been said multiple times here?


Jag, it isn't really about you and your question any longer. Please don't take it personally.

You will see this often around here. Someone will ask a question which will start a healthy debate. People want to contribute their experiences and opinions, some people might disagree. The conversation/ discussion takes on a life of it's own - far after the original question has been answered.

The forum mods are good about making sure that a discussion does stick to the original topic - but it rarely sticks to just answering the original question.

Please don't get discouraged. It is just that you asked a question that got people thinking and wanting to talk about it.

And - thanks, Laurie. No kidding, right?


thanks:)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/09/09 01:32 AM

I don't even like Teflon and I was ready to buy some....lol

There are lots of safe 'non stick' pans available these days without taking the chance of harming your pets. And, 'statistics' aside, if you've ever lost a pet while you're cooking your dinner, that's enough proof!
Posted By: SeemsFamiliar

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/09/09 05:22 PM

If I remember correctly, there is a certain temperature that the metal has to be before it starts emitting foul gas. The last Teflon product I received had a warning in THE PACKAGE OF THE PAN. SO I doubt you could really call that a myth.

Birds and small animals can be killed by much smaller amounts of chemicals because they are smaller, and birds cannot cough things out of their lungs since they don't have a diaphragm.

During Normal Cooking, the entire pan is not always filled, i.e. grilled cheese sandwich etc. causing some parts of the pan to become hotter than others. Any discoloration of the nonstick layer usually indicates that that area became hot enough for some of the chemicals to burn out of it at some point.

If you don't have your birds and smaller animals in the kitchen, then it will largely reduce the risks. You can't put the critter away, and deal with a flame up at the same time.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: danger cooking with teflon while carrying gliders? - 09/09/09 06:03 PM

Actually - according to the link I posted, gas starts being emitted as soon as the pan starts heating. And it reaches toxic levels at 240 degrees. Average heat for cooking, is low 200s to low 300s.

So - yeah....

People who decide to call it a myth can take their own chances! I'm sorry for their pets and children!
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