USDA class A vs class B

Okay, I was filling out my USDA papers today and I was wondering... Should I get a class A license or a class B. What's the difference? I know class A is for breeders, so does that mean you aren't allowed to sell gliders you didn't breed yourself? And can you sell gliders you've breed with a class B or only gliders somebody else has breed? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

From what was explained to me by my USDA agent, you can do either with either license. The classification is just what your PRIMARY dealings are. If you only breed, and sell an occasional joey from someone else, then a Class A is the way to go. If you only sell joeys from someone else, but still have 1 or 2 of your own, Class B is the way to go.

One other thing to consider, is that if you have a Class A license, your fee for next year is figured on 1/2 of the income from the gliders. Class B is figured on 100% of the income from animal sales.

My inspector told me that "A" license if mainly for breeding purposes and selling of your own gliders. "B" license is for selling other gliders, for example you are a shelter/rescue, and you buy a glider or take a glider in and then re-sell it. I was also informed that once you get your license, you can only buy from USDA breeders, you can't just go buy a glider from anyone.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

I was told what Rowdy was told.

Here is how it is defined on this website:

Getting a USDA License

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Class "A": This license allows you to sell animals you have raised at your facility.

Class "B": This license allows you to broker, or sell animals raised by another individual.

Class "C": This is strictly an exhibitor's license.


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That website also says:

FICTION: If you give the babies away instead of selling them you don't need a license.

?
Everyone on this website always says the opposite, that you only need a license if you are trying to get money or such for your gliders.

Unless it changed recently and I just didn't know.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

The reason we say this is not because the law was changed recently. The reason we say this is because it's just plain silly in some cases. Getting a USDA license takes months. So what's a person to do, when they need to get rid of a glider IMMEDIATELY? There are cases in which parting with a glider is necessary, whether it be a family emergency, moving, or a case where the glider is just not being cared for correctly. In these cases I would much rather see the glider be given away than have to wait for a USDA license to be issued.

Besides, though it may be "not allowed" to give away gliders, I have never heard of a case actually being brought up for people doing it. With all the bad things going on in the pet trade, I'm sure the USDA doesn't have time to bother with people giving away their gliders.

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..... Getting a USDA License .....

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This link is not working for me???

According to the USDA representative (a regional supervisor, who certainly should know the regulations and interpretations) at last summer's SGGA, you CAN give gliders away without a license, as long as there is NO compensation whatsoever). Anyone in the "trade" -- whether as a breeder or as a hobby -- who receives money for their gliders, needs to get a license.

There is a one-time exception for special situations like getting rid of your gliders, but that needs a special exception permit from the USDA.

Here is a direct quote from the APHIS Web page.

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.....Exotic Animal Dealers--Anyone importing, buying, selling, or trading animals foreign to the United States (wild or domesticated) must be licensed. You also must be licensed if you sell domestically bred exotic animals. Annual license fees are based on the amount received from the sale of regulated animals less the amount paid for these animals......

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It certainly appears to support the information that Lucy just posted!!!

I have emailed the USDA regional office in Colorado for their comments on the specific situation where a glider is "given away" (gift or rescue) and no money or other "consideration" is involved. I will post their response when it arrives. no

Well, here is your government in action???? I will grant that they were prompt in their response; but, if you can find an answer to my question in their response, please point it out to me?????

Just to remind everyone, the question was, "Do you need a license to "give away" a giider......no money, no consideration.....just a gift?"

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Thanks for your inquiry. We enforce the Animal Welfare Act (AWA) at the federal level. In that act are regs for licensing those who want to breed, broker, exhibit, etc. Regarding "transfer of ownership" of animals, we encourage people to keep track of paperwork no matter how they came by their animals so ownership can be traced back in case of disease, etc. It is important to know the actual phone, address and legal name of person giving away/selling animals and why, even possibly where they got them to begin with. An example of that was the pairie dog outbreak last summer. Exhibitor license fees are based on number of animals owned at time of new license and renewal. We do license sanctuaries, refuges, rescue operations, etc. There is a qualification for being a breeder and that is that 4 or more breeding females are owned by the applicant/licensee. Other licenses are also based on animals purchased, sold, owned. Inspectors do go through records kept to backup ownership during inspection. Also should you end up selling your sugar gliders to a licensed broker/breeder then you should also be licensed. If you wish to be considered a hobby breeder, then there is no need to be licensed with us. Applicants must be over 18 years of age. I know this can be very confusing and please call 970-494-7470 should you like an application kit or just a copy of the Animal Welfare Act.

Ann Tishmack, Inspection and Licensing Assistant (ILA)

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Guess I'm going to have to follow up on this and get a clarification. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" />

Wow, APHIS's site is extremely vague. That would mean you need a license to trade cats, dogs, hamsters, parakeets, and any other animal besides a rabbit maybe? Then again, I think domestic rabbits may have come from Europe...

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..... Getting a USDA License .....

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This link is not working for me???

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Hmmmm...this was working a few days ago. It looks like the website is down, or the domain name has expired and wasn't renewed. This is Bourbon's page, too.

It's working now !! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

LOL Randy yes that was a very vague I'm in colorado and am dealing with the same hmm i dunno answers I get from the usda about getting a fennec fox as for gliders I was told it is illegal to sell trade or barter a glider but they really didn't care if you gave them away if you find out diffrent please post it would be good to know ohh and hey if you get someone intelligent on the phone ask them about fennec fox in colorado <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Do you suppose there is anyone in an USDA office that knows how to use a telephone??? I wonder....... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" />

Aaahh! How confusing! Did that response letter actually say that they won't license you unless you have 4 or more breeding females, or am I just not reading it correctly? I only have ONE breeding female. If that's the case, I guess I shouldn't order my packet. Blah.

I think the four or more applies to dogs and cats and not gliders????

[:"CC6699"] Yes, the 4 or more is for dogs and cats, not exotics. [/]

Here is my second inquiry to APHIS:

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Thanks for your prompt response and the interesting information. However, i'm not sure that I saw an answer to my specific question.

If, I as a pet owner of a couple of sugar glider, have a joey every
so often and give them away as gifts without any money or other
"consideration" changing hands, am I required to have a USDA license? If there is some specific language in the law that covers this situation, would it be possible for you to make it available to me?

The following is from the APHIS Web site. It does not seem to
indicate that giving gliders as gifts requires a license. Sure would
appreciate a clarification of this point.

".....Exotic Animal Dealers--Anyone importing, buying, selling, or
trading animals foreign to the United States (wild or domesticated) must be licensed. You also must be licensed if you sell domestically bred exotic animals. Annual license fees are based on the amount received from the sale of regulated animals less the amount paid for these animals......"

Thanks.

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And here is their response:

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When you emailed first your mentioned, "...who are selling sugar gliders...", and "..when a glider is given as a gift...". Then you went on to mention "...pet owner wishes to "give away" unwanted animals". Now I learn that "unwanted animals..." may refer to you having "...a joey every so often". If this involves having received an imported joey I encourage you to contact Veterinary Services, Import division in Austin TX at 512-916-5555, Dr. Burda. It is something they should be made aware of for each and every joey received every so often.

The Animal Welfare Act (AWA) August 2002, page 20 further defines a
dealer... "or any person who does not sell, or negotiate the purchase
or sale of any wile or exotic animal...". Due to mentioning a joey it sounds like you would be a candidate for B license. It is considered more than just hobby breeding of sugar gliders, fee or no fee.

Please call with any questions or if you want the app kit which
includes the above mentioned AWA booklet.

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Is there some problem with the question I asked them???? You would think I wrote the question in Dutch or Japanese....????. And what is so special about their AWA pamphlet that I have to make a long distance phone call and sit on hold for a half hour. Clearly it would be more efficient for me and for them too, to take my mailing address by email and send me the booklet rather than taking up 15 minutes of someones time in the office with my phone call.

I give up.......screw the license. If this is the caliber of person who is going to be trying to catch me giving away a joey, then i've got nothing to worry about.

LOL @ Randy - I'm finding they do a lot of things different here in the Lone Star State <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> do you think it's in the water? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
All my furry friends as well as myself drink bottled!

I wish it were that simple.....

First of all no one in Texas drinks water.....everyone drinks Coors!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Secondly, these folks i'm trying to deal with are in the regional office in Colorado.....maybe their brains stay frozen until the snow melts????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" />

never try to talk to the USDA... Randy my USDA inspector and I are very close and I actually had to call him about something else today do you want me to ask him? He is really good at explaining things and I can verify again that what he told me was true.

Thanks for the offer, Tonia. The problem is that when you have something verbally, you essentially have nothing. Different people tell you different things and you don't really know what is true and what is not. I am trying to get something "official" in writing and preferably the actual text of the law so there is NO ambiguity whatsoever!!!

If your guy can get you a WRITTEN copy of the law that would be great!!!

I'll see what I can do... I need a written copy of another one anyway so we'll just try to kill two birds with one stone.

Here is an answer directly from my USDA inspector, Randy Coleman:

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You do not need to be licensed if you give away a sugarglider. You have the
needed regulations in the blue book you got with your application packet.
In Section 2.1 of the book you will see this:


(a)(1) Any person operating or desiring to operate as a dealer, exhibitor,
or operator of an auction sale, except persons who are exempted from the
licensing requirements under paragraph (a)(3) of this section, must have a
valid license. A person must be 18 years of age or older to obtain a
license. A person seeking a license shall apply on a form which will be
furnished by the AC Regional Director in the State in which that person
operates or intends to operate. The applicant shall provide the information
requested on the application form, including a valid mailing address
through which the licensee or applicant can be reached at all times, and a
valid premises address where animals, animal facilities, equipment, and
records may be inspected for compliance. The applicant shall file the
completed application form with the AC Regional Director.


(2) If an applicant for a license or license renewal operates in more
than one State, he or she shall apply in the State in which he or she has
his or her principal place of business. All premises, facilities, or sites
where such person operates or keeps animals shall be indicated on the
application form or on a separate sheet attached to it. The completed
application form, along with the application fee indicated in paragraph (d)
of this section, and the annual license fee indicated in table 1 or 2 of
Sec. 2.6 shall be filed with the AC Regional Director.


(3) The following persons are exempt from the licensing requirements
under section 2 or section 3 of the Act:


(i) Retail pet stores which sell nondangerous, pet-type animals, such
as dogs, cats, birds, rabbits, hamsters, guinea pigs, gophers, domestic
ferrets, chinchilla, rats, and mice, for pets, at retail only: Provided,
That, Anyone wholesaling any animals, selling any animals for research or
exhibition, or selling any wild, exotic, or nonpet animals retail, must
have a license;


You can see that there is only a requirement for sale of animals.

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" />: It really is hard to get a clear answer. I'm having a hard time even getting to an inspector because I have only one breeding female and I'm "not much of a priority". That is SO aggravating. Guess I'll try back and see if maybe I can get someone more helpful on the phone. Worst part is... I live less than a mile from the western region office. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Well according to my inspector that's the code that says you don't need a license to give away...

i take his word for it.. he really knows his stuff.

Yeah... but I want my WSGN certification and I want to be able to rescue and rehome without worrying. :/

[:"blue"] This is the same answer we were given at the 2003 SGGA about giving away a glider however the USDA representative made it VERY clear that you could not take any kind of compensation ... no gas money, no dinner, no drinks ... you get the picture.

He also explained that when selling a glider, there is a one time forgiveness clause.

Even with all this, sometimes it seems you will get a different answer depending on who you talk to. It is very frustrating. [/]

Guess I'll just keep harassing them 'til it's easier to just come give my my inspection. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />

Sad part is... it doesn't seem likely that I'll ever get a check up visit.