GliderCENTRAL

color variations

Posted By: Anonymous

color variations - 11/05/03 04:15 AM

Mutation: A change in the DNA at a particular locus in an organism. A sudden change in genotype (genetic makeup) having no relation to the intividual's ancestry

I'm not trying to start another heated debate. I'm merely stating scientific fact. Albanism is NOT a MUTATION. It is in the most simplest terms a complete homozygous recessive genotype... basically albino gliders ONLY have recessive genes. Some people are confusing mutations and homozygous recessive expressions. A mutation would be, oh lets use a foot growing out of the middle of the gliders forehead (for example), not a white glider. Recessive genes are not something that you can elminate from a population by spaying. They have always been there and will always be there but may be dominated by dominant genes.
Genetics is not a simple cut and dry, line to line science.
There are too many variables involved. The fact that there are very rarely white gliders in the wild is based on the environmental factors. White glider + green tree = easier meal. Understaning genetics is Not going to happen easily, [censored], I've got a M.S. in Genetics and it still blows my mind. The thing that seems to be confusing most of the ppl (here mainly) who have posted on this subject is that they won't let their minds grasp the one key element to comprehending or even slightly understanding genetics which is Genetics is not black or white, one way or the other.
There are literally millions of variables that will affect the outcome of just one and only one trait which will affect another and another and another. I've tried explaining genetics in the most simplest of terms (one gene pair) but that seems confuse ppl even more. The best suggestion I have to give to anyone reading this post is to do some research yourself. I'm not talking whoever's personal home page about glider colors. Do some research for yourself. Read (yes read) a book about basic mendelian genetics. We live life and take care of God's creatures, we might as well understand just a little about what is going on. I'm not trying to defend or admonish anyone in particular. I'm not trying to correct (for the most part) anyone in particular. Yes, Albino's gliders are light sensative. Are they sterile? I've seen some of mine produce and some not. Do they live shorter lives then other gliders?
Our first is still alive and he's almost 3 years old now. I'll let you know in about 10 years if that changes.
I understand that seeing the recent increase of unusual glider colors can be disconcerting but it is not a mutation.
It simply is the genetic variance that naturally occurs.
Why is it exhibiting itself now? Well for the most part not many gliders are being inported, and variations like this are what naturally occur in a close genetic pool (I'm gonna catch [censored] for that one) which for the most part is what we have. NOT INBRED gliders. Mutations do occur but what is being exhibited with our gliders is not a mutation.
Again, I challenge anyone who doesn't agree with me to do the research yourself... get a book and look it up. Don't just believe what I tell you (or anyone else for that matter) find out the truth about things in life. And don't think for one instance that anyone who is able to read this post is too dumb or stupid to do the research.
You're reading this post aren't you? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: SugarBaby22

Re: color variations - 11/05/03 04:34 AM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

[:"blue"] Great information!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> [/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/05/03 04:44 AM

WOW...that was absolutely wonderful. i may not know the world about gliders but i do know a lot about science. and everything that you said in your post is so on target. it was said PERFECT. you just described genetics as simply and as easily as i have ever heard before. and that my friends was definately short and sweet!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I applaud you for your post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> and i most definately agree. here is a thumbs up to a very wise individual!!!!thumb <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/08/03 06:03 PM

I've found some of the best information on color genetics has been researched by UC Davis concerning horse coat color. While we are talking about a different species, you can see a lot of similarities in horse coat color genetics that I believe will shed some light oh glider coat color.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/09/03 12:48 PM

But if I'm not mistaken (and I have done my research) from time to time color variations can be caused my a mutation. A mutation is an irregularity in a genetic code, sometimes there isn't a complete chromosome set sometimes there's an extra chromosome, sometimes a chromosome is damaged. If the chromosome that is responsible for pigmentation is damaged, it can cause an actual color mutation (I think calico gliders could be an example, but there's only one way to know for sure and I don't think anybody is currently mapping sugar glider DNA). The color variations that we see may not even be caused by the lack of genetic variation available, but by unintentional "selective breeding". Selective breeding is the technique used to "create the perfect race horse". By breeding animals with traits you desire you can actually cause the trait to become more obvious. For example roses: roses originally only came in 2 colors, red and white. By breeding red roses with white roses, they got pink roses. By breeding roses that displayed a bolder shade of pink a dark pink rose was created. That's not caused by recessive genes, but by dominant. Generally speaking, dark colors are dominate, so the gene that caused the original rose to be darker in the first place is the gene that was used to create a new color. By eliminating the receive gene you eliminate the potential for variation, there for, you actually create something new.

Wow, that was a long post, I hope it all makes sense.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/09/03 11:34 PM

You are completely correct, BUT I feel you (and most ppl) aren't seeing the forest for the trees so to speak. If gliders were the only species to exhibit this trait then I would say this was most likely a mutation but albanism is seen in virtually every species with the exceptions where there are allele's that also code for lethality. In those cases (horses) the offspring are aborted rather early in the pregnancy. You hit the definition of mutation right on. But because of the frequency of occurance the probability that albanism is a mutation is almost nill. What you are describing with the roses is actually semi-dominance. It works the same way in cattle. You're not actually creating a new gene but using the existing ancestory of genes to match genes with semi-dominating expressions. You do create a new color in that instance that is different from the color of the parents but that still does not constitute a mutation. You merely arranged the gene sequence to express the pink color that the genes had the abilitiy to express all along given the proper gene crosses.
I really do wish that someone would map the dna sequence of gliders and maybe one day they will but right now I still stick with my guns. By definiation alone and frequency of occurance white gliders are not a mutation.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/10/03 05:06 AM

[:"teal"]Agreed! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" /> [/][:"grape"]c[/][:"rufus"]o[/][:"salmon"]l[/][:"apple"]o[/][:"mauve"]r[/][:"teal"] variation, NOT a mutation! I agree with Wherezat on the misuse of the term 'mutation' in describing what is a color variant. I struggled with my own personal college Genetics, and I didn't specialize in the field, so I certainly defer to the expert here-(Masters in Genetics by Wherezat), however as a former Zoology major and somewhat familiar with the study of basic Mendelian Genetics, I wholeheartedly agree! Seems there are a couple of previous posts by others in the Biological fields who concur as well! Previous [:"apple"]GC thread here[/][:"teal"] and[/][:"apple"] [:"apple"]another here[/][:"teal"]. I'm with Gregor, Wherezat, & fishdoc on this one! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />[/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/10/03 03:46 PM

So what would be considered a mutation in color, or is there no such thing? And to open a can of worms(sorry!)the whole brown colored versus grey versus cinnamon, and light to shed on that you informed people? LOL Never thought I'd be in a genetics discussion, now to wade OUT of it! LOL
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/10/03 06:00 PM

Albanisim is a mutation because it is not the true color of an animal. A Cinnamon glider lacking pigmantation due to an error in his DNA will be albino. If he breeds he may pass this error on or not. His offsprings color will depend on wether or not his mate has the same mutation. That is why if you breed two albinos together you might not produce an albino. There may be a case were an albanism like phenotype is not caused by a mutation. Mice can have red eyes and normal colored fur, mice can also have white coats and normal colored eyes. If the two were mated and bred for red eyes and white coats they would be indishtinguishable from an albino. An albino always has a repressed color not exhibited by the inability to produce melanin. But in this example the true color is white coat and red eyes. This individual then is not an albino, but a red eyed white. All living organisms on earth share mostly similar DNA. The fact that some mutations are possible or even common in most species allows for the possibility of albanism accross all species. If lets say albanism is caused by the damage of one gene (which is probably not the case) on the x sex chromosome, then it can be expected to be found in any species that has x,y sex chromosomes. Comparing the DNA sequence of an albino to a group of normals (with many generations without an albino offspring) should provide the answer to what set of genes is responsible for that particular albino occurance. There is probably many gene combinations that, if damaged, can produce an albino. A mutation is an irregularity (either damaged, ommited, or rearrangment) in the DNA that produces a change in the phenotype.

Ushuaia
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/10/03 06:26 PM

Something I'm curious about since this disucssion has started, is I keep hearing ppl talk about "true" colors of gliders, so I started to do a search on cinnamons (mostly cinni's b/c they are what interest me), blonds & even diff. pics of grey gliders .. Due to so many saying that this is thier "true" color and showing a pic and then showing another pic and saying this one, being of a similar but perhaps lighter shade isn't a true *insert color*

However, I don't think it's realistic to expect all gliders to have the exact same shade of color in order to be a certain color if that makes sense. Even greys will have variances in their coats, a friend of mine here localy has a pair of grey gliders and even amongst her two the shades vary, her female is a lot darker than my male as an example, but their both greys. So isn't it possible to to think that there are "cinnamons" and "blonds" and "greys" w/ different shade variances & still be under that category/color label?

And if not then what do you consider all of those gliders that fall between the "true's".
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/10/03 06:31 PM

With cinnamon there can be scent staining involved that has nothing to do with genetics. Their true color is based upon their genetic make up not their enviornment.

Ushuaia
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/10/03 06:39 PM

Right, which I've read .. but putting scent staining aside. I know that the color of the glider (minus staining) is based upon their genetic make, and that's where my question lies .. What about the gliders that are lighter/fall inbetween the darker ones aka "true" colors? Where do they fit in?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/10/03 07:50 PM

if I'm not mistaken, animals can display colors that they are recessive for with out actually truly exhibiting that color. For example, my female glider is most likely het for blond. She even shows some of the blond coloring, but she isn't blond. She could have true blond babies though if breed with a blond or another het for blond glider (which my male is...). But since she's not homogeneous for blond gray dominates her coloring and there are only hints of blond.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/10/03 08:08 PM

So the gliders that are lighter shades of the color might just simply have the gene but aren't considered to be cinnamon or blond ect.

Am I understanding right?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/10/03 08:13 PM

Argh, I don't want to say anything definitively because there is no set standards for sugar glider colors like there are with dogs, but in my opinion yes. Hum... project idea <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinkerg.gif" alt="" /> would anybody be interested in starting a sugar glider registrar? We could declare a glider color standard, keep breeding records, the works... (I've had this idea for a while, but never really thought anybody would be interested)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/10/03 08:21 PM

I guess that's the hard part as who's to say what's what, at this point it's really just all a matter of opinion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great project idea though! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/10/03 09:13 PM

I had that idea for a while, but I only own cinnamons and normals. There is such a thing a Codominance is where a red flower and a white flower make a pink flower, both traits are partialy expressed. There is a natural range of shades of a color. There are lighter and darker normals but they are still normal. Until clear color discriptions are set down we cannot assume to be talking about the same color. We should have a sugar glider show at the next sgga and then come up with a score card for each color clearly defining it, the pattern the shade based upon paint cards.

Ushuaia
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/11/03 04:26 AM

Heterozygous- refers to a situation where the genotype of a particular gene is dissimilar (e.g. Aa); a heterozygous organism is often referred to as a carrier of a specified gene, which may or may not be expressed depending on the mutation (i.e. dominant, recessive, codominant)

Can someone tell me whats wrong with this definition?
The term mutation is being used to describe gene properties of dominant, recessive, codominant, and many others that were not mentioned due to space. These are gene qualities that occur everyday in every species. The term mutation is being used incorrectly, yet again, to describe everything genetic thats not familiar to the author. I wanted to see where everyone was getting confused with genetics so I went to google and searched. You know what every page that I looked at used the terms albinism and mutation in conjunction. They also used mutation in conjunction with dominant, recessive, etc just like the aforementioned definition (http://www.classreptilia.com/basic_genetics.htm)

This is not correct. Most of these pages were from so and so's home page on snake's or whatever they were interested in.

Albanism (absence of melanin pigment) is inherited as an autosomal recessive trait.
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/albinoped.html

This is from the university of virgina.
Albinism is inherent in the recessive genes now in almost every species and given the correct gene pairing and allel placement it occurs.
The term "mutation" is being used interchangably with the concept of variability. As a matter of fact the term mutation (in the first definition) was used to describe every genetic variation possible.
Does this finally come across to anyone?
You cannot deem something a mutation because its not your "norm". Things happen that are not normal but that doesn't make them mutations. And yes recessive genes (possibly at the beginning of time) were brought about by a mutations, but they now have evolved into a normal part of life. The are heritable, you cannot get rid of them by spaying or neutering or taking a magic drug, and most of all they are not MUTATIONS NOW!


Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/11/03 06:09 AM

"you cannot get rid of them by spaying or neutering"

You cannot remove this variance out of that particular individual no but you can most certainly remove it out of a population if you selectively neuter all individuals that express this trait and their offspring. Over time that trait will be eliminated from the population because it has no way of continuing to pass its genes on. It will take a longer for larger populations. But the gene can be selectively removed. Indeed removing undesirable genetic combinations and promoting an ideal body condition is the purpose of keeping records and not breeding aggressive animals.

"Albinism is the result of one of several defects in the enzymatic pathway for the synthesis of melanin"

Page 34 Principles of Genetics by Robert H. Tamarin Seventh Edition 2002.

"Variant traits such as albinism in humans ... are traceable to the action of altered, or mutant, genes."

Page 38 Understanding Evolution 6th edition by E. Peter Volpe; and Peter A. Rosenbaum 2000

Ushuaia
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/11/03 02:12 PM

I never at anytime stated that it was not BASED on a mutation or evolution of genes. It is no longer a sudden change, it can be mathmatically predicted and it is no longer a differentiation from the parents ancestry because they are carriers. Albanism is just like HYPP, sickle cell anemia and a myriad of other genetic expressions that started from a genetic mutation but are heritable and predictable traits now.
It has become a normal occurrance and should no longer be termed a mutation. It is confusing to those who do not know the use of the word and entirely misleading. Each particular apparance of an albino is no longer the result of one mutation but is and can be traced back to a mutant event that has brought about the expression of the homozygous recessive. You are looking at things incorrectly Usushia and are not taking into account that things change and terms change. What once was a unique event is now commonplace. For every book that you can come up with that will say that albanism is based on a mutation (which I am not arguing) I can come up with at least one that will say its a homozygous recessive expression. The only way you would be able to have a population completely free of recessives is to start a new population based on animals that are homozygous dominant. There is no way you could weed out the recessive genes from an existing population because there will always be heterozygous animals that will carry the recessive but the recessive may never be expressed or have been expressed in the ancestry.
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/11/03 02:55 PM

By the way, did you know that a large breeder has accidently produced two Albinos? Babies came from two normal looking gliders. Parents were unsellable due to having had their tails bitten off so were paired together. The fur color of a sister in a previous litter is Taupe. Babies now are about five weeks oop.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/11/03 08:14 PM

Ok I concede Wherezat is right and I just misunderstood what he was sayuing, sorry for the confusion.

Ushuaia
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/12/03 02:25 AM

I must admit that I have in previous posts tried to "hide" the fact that mutations happen, are responsible for every genetic variation etc etc, and do become commonplace. The reason... to avoid confusion. Its much easier to explain genetics to laymen when you just focus on the outcome and not the reason's why this has happened eons ago etc etc.
Its hard for most people to accept the concept that evolution (ie genetic mutation) occurs. I've noticed that once a term like mutation is used then everyone refer's to a mutation this and a mutation that. What it all boils down to is that once something like albanism exhibits itself in a population, is then passed and expressed more and more and more, it naturally becomes a part of that populations genetic make up and hence ceases to be a mutation and becomes a heritable trait.
Everyone get that.. I'm a bit on the tired side and devoted to other life matters tonight to make this my usual long winded rantings and ravings.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/12/03 04:19 AM

So then once a mutation happens a second time then it is no longer a mutation? So if a frog is born with 20 legs and a second frog is also born with 20 legs then from that point on it is no longer considered a mutation? What number of duplicatoin of the phenotype is needed for a mutation to no longer be a mutation. I guess I am still confused. Shouldn't a mutation be defined as an error in DNA producing an adnormal phenotype?

Ushuaia
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/12/03 07:36 AM

I think what he means is that once a mutated animal reproduces and it's spawn be come part of the species then the mutation goes from being a mutation to a genetic possibility because no mutation is required other than the initial one for the trait to be displayed. Wow that was a long sentence.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/12/03 01:55 PM

Congrats D. You got it!
Once something like that happens and the phenotype becomes mathmatically preditcable because the genes (mutated gene) frequency in the population increases it ceases to be a mutation. Here's the rule of thumb I've discussed with a few of my genetics professors: If it happens once and is the first time it happens, its a mutation.
If the population has a chance at expressing this phenotype becasue the genes exist in the population, then its genetic variation.
If you want to get real freaky and confuse ppl, You can argue that life in general is a mutation because all genes at some point in time have changed in some way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tantrum.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/12/03 04:28 PM

Great thread,very infoprmative and explanatory... or else i'd be ready for the sanatorium. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
To sum it up:

Genetics are mathematically predictable, but due to the numerous variations, anything could happen.
You only get a probable percentage when putting two of the same traits together.
This in turn is dependant on the dominant VS recessive factor.
Any changes that occur for the first time are considered a mutation, but once i shows itself again and again, it's called a genetic variation.
All subsequent genetic variations can be traced back to a mutation.

Now is that all correct ?

Tanja
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/12/03 05:32 PM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> I think you covered it all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/13/03 01:51 AM

yep thats it in a nutshell. Genetics the "exact" science... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/14/03 11:28 PM

I have been told that this thread will be updated with a photo of the two babies I mentioned above. These two very special little ones are really Beautiful. Their coat is very full looking and fully fluffed tails. I am not going to discribe them any further....as the photo will say it all.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/15/03 06:19 PM

I cannot wait to see the photos!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: SugarBaby22

Re: color variations - 11/15/03 08:37 PM

Me neither!!! I cannot wait to see more pictures of Albino babies!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I bet they're beautiful babies in person!
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/15/03 09:29 PM

OK. Owner has sent me permission to post this one photo. I am hoping there will be a couple of others to follow in a day or so.

This is one awesome set of twins. One boy and one little girl. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" />

Attached picture 165258-New Variation...Cream with pale stripe 5 wks.jpg
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/15/03 09:30 PM

OH MY GOODNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are BEAUTIFUL!!!! So lucky!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/15/03 09:43 PM

OMG!!! They are so awesomely beautiful!!! I love them!!! Do normal albinoes have that streak on their bodies- I'd assume no, right? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/15/03 09:43 PM

I originally posted them as Albinos. However, they are very Cream in color with a very faint stripe that appears to be darker than the cream color of the overall fur color. Eye color is Burgandy.

My understanding of an Albino is lack of pigment. Otherwords no color. The faint stipe has me confused.

I am hoping Brian or possible Jeff will help us out as to what they are.
Posted By: SugarBaby22

Re: color variations - 11/15/03 09:47 PM

[:"red"] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> They're gorgeous!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" />

They have one very lucky owner <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" /> [/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/16/03 01:45 AM

Okay, so if they aren't albinoes- which we all can agree that they aren't, right, then how did they get burgundy eyes? Isn't burgundy a dark rich red color? *scratches head*
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/16/03 03:55 AM

Yes, the burgandy is a deep dark red. The eye color is not visible in the photos, but the breeder says they are burgandy.

Still waiting for Brian, or Jeff to reappear and help us out here.
Posted By: SugarBaby22

Re: color variations - 11/16/03 04:18 AM

[:"blue"] Well my Chinchilla has red/burgundy eyes and he's not Albino. He is beige, so it has to be something else.. [/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/16/03 04:19 AM

burgandy!!!! oh my goodness!!! Now THAT is something I would absolutley love to see in person .. They are beautiful gliders!! Their coats are soo pretty and fluffy!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/16/03 05:34 AM

Those gliders are beautiful!! That's so wierd that they came from normal colored parents!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/16/03 07:25 AM

[:"teal"]VERY handsome looking pair! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" /> I am far too tired to tax my feeble mind too terribly much at this late hour tonight, but I will agree that they are NOT albinos, but rather, IMHO, a variant of leucistic genetic make-up. I'll defer to Brian with his expertise on the subject, however, my best guess is the presence of heterozygous genes for leucism, with varying degrees of a dilution factor playing an important part in the resulting phenotype shown-(i.e.-very light dorsal stripe). In a leucistic, the eyes contain pigment, thus not albinism. Many of the platinums, "calicos", and other variants are likely degreed variations of the leucistic genes influenced by lesser or greater influence by the white factor. Hopefully Brian can make better sense of what I'm entirely too tired to properly explain! Eye coloration is interesting, but I'm guessing the dark eyes are similar or the same as in normal gliders. Perhaps the ubiquitous "red eye" appearance, which often shows in photos of humans and animals alike, is just a perceived illusion of burgundy, when in fact the eyes are just the typical dark coloration found in other gliders. So Brian, are these considered leucistics or light platinums or ??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />[/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/16/03 12:56 PM

Argh, there's a name for that coloration and I can't think of what it's called. It's even rarer than albino. There was an alligator at the Toledo Zoo with blue eyes and I had it explained to me. The mutation is similar to albinism, but instead of totally lacking pigment they still have a little. That's what causes the stripe and the burgundy eyes. The alligator I saw had blue eyes and light green coloring around is toes, the tip of the spine on his back, and a little on the spines of his tail.
~bangs head on wall~ I should know what this is called!
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/16/03 04:26 PM

Not sure but these may be Albino but with a dilute gene. Now two names come to mind...one is Cremino and with some the pheomelanin becomes a paler cream..but that one I beleive is sex linked for multi generations so not sure about it. The other one is Cinnamon Ino...this one is where brown melanins are completly erased. Both are a form of partial albinism.

Jeff...can you help with this as I may be incorrect?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/16/03 08:17 PM

[:"teal"]I believe the joeys pictured are what is technically referred to as [/][:"crimson"]partial leucistics[/][:"teal"]. As for describing the joeys as "albinos", it's a judgment call by many, I suppose, but it is common for many lay people not in the field to refer to initial mutation occurrences such as Leucism-(an incomplete distribution of melanin), melanism-(an excess of melanin), erythrism-(an excess of red pigment), and others as "partial albinism". For the record, by definition, there is no such thing as "partial albinism". To further confuse things however, there IS such a description for leucism. That said, I believe what the proper description to explain this particular pair of joeys, as well as many of the previously mentioned "calicos" or other "almost" white variations is [/][:"crimson"]partial leucistic[/][:"teal"]. Partial leucism is very common, as is complete leucism, in numerous species of mammals, including marsupials & birds. Eye color is interesting and encompasses a whole other intensive discussion with respect to albinos, leucistics, and other variations. With respect to eye color associated with albinism in people-(yes folks, we people are mammals too! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />), The National Organization for Albinism and Hypopigmentation-(NOAH) Copyright 1995-2002 states in the following [:"apple"]NOAH publication[/][:"teal"]:[/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]A common myth is that by definition people with albinism have red eyes. In fact there are different types of albinism, and the amount of pigment in the eyes varies. Although some individuals with albinism have reddish or violet eyes, most have blue eyes. Some have hazel or brown eyes.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/]

[:"teal"]Another notable point made in the above publication linked by NOAH is the brief explanation for autosomal recessive inheritance-(which is the likely pathway explaining the birth of this pair of glider joeys):[/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]When both parents carry the gene, and neither parent has albinism, there is a one in four chance at each pregnancy that the baby will be born with albinism. This type of inheritance is called autosomal recessive inheritance.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/]

[:"teal"]Although speaking about Koalas, the following quote from Valerie Thompson, Associate Curator of Mammals at San Diego Zoo during a live, online chat February 27, 2002, can help to illustrate the reasoning behind the occurring birth of this pair of atypical color variant joeys from phenotypically "typical" or "normal" parents:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]Our first koala born in San Diego can be tied genetically to an albino koala that was at Lone Pine Sanctuary in Brisbane, Australia. When he died we had no known carriers of the albino gene in our collection in San Diego. When we had our second albino koala born several years later, we realized the gene had been perpetuated by several normal gray-colored koalas. The trait for albinism is a recessive gene, like that for blue eyes, where both parents must pass on the albino gene to their offspring for the albino phenotype to occur. For that reason a gray koala could carry the gene, but we would not know from its outward appearance without DNA analysis.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/]

[:"teal"]Ms. Thompson makes a very important point to keep in mind whenever discussing genetics with gliders, or any specie, which is that of DNA analysis, genetic sequencing & mapping. The funding necessary to perform these elaborate & costly data reports makes it virtually cost prohibitive without strong financial backing.

Perhaps the most important message of the many to be learned from color abnormalities is that genetic potential for extreme variability exists in nature.

Hopefully Brian can better elucidate what I've tried to explain in my rather confusing attempts thus far! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/17/03 02:46 AM

I did some searching....and came up with this. Brian knows horses...so, he is the expert and not I. So, I will try to make a stab at this.

Here's two additional interesting quotes about The Genetics of the Cremello Trait in Horses.

Chap 4.13 - reproductive genetics, page 129
"Occasionally it may be possible to differentiate homozoygous and heterozygous genotypes by observation of phenotype. Another coat-color trait can provide an example of this. The palomino gene(Ccr) causes a distinctive golden hair color by dilution of the red pigment to yellow, and is highly prized by many breeders. Homozygotes(CcrCcr) for the gene exhibit a "dosage effect" in that the coat is diulted to a very pale creme(cremello) which is usually considered undesirable."

Siegal, Mordecai, ed.UC Cavis Book of Horses, 1997 CH 4, section 13, p. 129

"The C or color gene is necessary in dominant form for the expression of any coat color. A homozygous pair of recessive c genes (cc) will result in a true albino. The recessive c gene is rare and may not exist in the the gene pools of most solid colored breeds. The c(cr)gene acts to dilute the red pigment to yellow in the Het form(Cc(cr) and to creme in the Homozoygous form (c(cr)c(cr). The dominant d gene is also a dilution gene and is associated with primitive markings(dorsal and zebra stripes)."

North, Ed.Breeding for Color. 1992. Introduction.

Autosomal recessive inheritance albinism.....
Partial albinos or tyroninase-positive albinos do have some pigment. The colors of Chinchilla, beige, himalyan, burmese and cremello in mammels such as mice, gerbils, rabbits and horses and cats are all thought to be due to variations in the "c" series of genes (the tyrosinase-producing genes)and can therefor considered typical of albinism.

So, I think what we are seeing is the cremello gene at work in these babies. These then would be considered albino hets. And should produce if paired correctly 25% albinos in the future.



Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/17/03 03:26 AM

Cremello, that's it. My aunt had a cremello horse (boy was it ugly). I totally forgot about the horse, but I remembered the aligator... oh well. All I know is that the genetic probability for the coloration is very low in most animals because a recessive gene become dominate (well more dominate) or something of the sort. More or less it's a genetic blooper.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/17/03 03:36 AM

Might be ugly in a horse, but if that's the color of those babies- they are darn cute!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/17/03 03:42 AM

Lol, oh horses it looks like they rolled in pee... They just kind of look dirty, I don't know how else to explain it.
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/17/03 04:07 AM

The camello color in horses ...I beleive is commonly known as the Palimno.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/17/03 04:17 AM

No, Palomino is actually a different color. Cremello is a dilute Palomino if I'm not mistaken. My aunt shows Palominos and I know that Cremellos are considered undesirerable... I think a double recessive palomino gene causes cremello though.
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/17/03 04:34 AM

You are right. The Palimno is darker. The Cremello is a creme or pale yellow. The gene responsible for camello dilutes out the red pigment. The gene C(cr). When both parents carry this gene it then produces...CcrCcr in the offspring.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/17/03 05:06 PM

Palamino's are beautiful!! Until they get old lol

Interesting about all of the info regarding colours and what they mean.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/17/03 05:48 PM

While the cost for an entire sequence would be cost prohibative running in the millions, if you could identify the area of a chromosome to be sequenced and you know exactly where to look,by cross referencing other albino sequences it might be a lot less, in the thousands. I will talk with my genetics professor on this.

Ushuaia
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/18/03 05:26 AM

Here is updated photo from Flying Fur Ranch of creme colored glider in attachment.

Attached picture 166347-Creme colored glider..JPG
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/18/03 05:28 AM

Another photo from Flying Fur Ranch.

Attached picture 166348-000_0572.JPG
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/18/03 05:30 AM

And last last photo from Flying Fur Ranch in attachment.

Attached picture 166350-000_0569.JPG
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/18/03 06:43 AM

they are so adorable. So is flying fur ranch calling them cream?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/18/03 09:07 AM

Do you know what they are asking for those babies or will they be keeping them?
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/18/03 09:31 AM

For now, a name has not been decided on. I call them Creme. I have not asked...but my guess is Flying Fur Ranch will be keeping both babies.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/18/03 03:34 PM

Yes, Flying Fur Ranch is keeping both of these beauties. They really are gorgeous!
Posted By: Sheila

Re: color variations - 11/19/03 04:41 AM

A few weeks ago the owner of Flying Fur Ranch called me and said, "I want you to know first they are not for sale". That was before they told me what they had. Out of all the gliders they have this is the first special pair that they have had. I don't blame them, they are beauties. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/19/03 04:48 AM

They sure are adorable! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: SugarBaby22

Re: color variations - 11/19/03 03:31 PM

[:"blue"] Those babies are gorgeous!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" /> [/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/19/03 04:03 PM

Lol, I don't blame them for not selling, if I were in their possition I wouldn't either <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/19/03 05:38 PM

They are going to maintian this color through breeding it right? I would love to know what color the parents and grand parents were.

Ushuaia
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/19/03 05:42 PM

With gliders of this color, there might be unforseen medical probems in the future. These gliders are extremely expensive if they went out for sale, probably rivaling an albino in price. Because of this I would recommend they get vet insurance on each one. Their value is great enough to justify $120 a year for 90% vet coverage. I would love to see pictures of the parents and grand parents.

Ushuaia
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/19/03 07:50 PM

[:"teal"]Although new to us, these gliders aren't all that uncommon. The stunningly handsome appearance that we all revel in awe over are often short lived in the wild populations, thus pairs producing such phenotypical expressions don't survive to perpetuate higher frequency of said expression or color. The parents were normal, as already indicated, and I would venture to guess that the grandparents were normals as well. "Luck of the draw" put two carriers of the genetic potential for this stunning phenotypic expression of partial leucism and eye color together. Knowing the information regarding previous joeys and, especially now in light of this beautiful pair, all succeeding litters by this pair, will be quite interesting from the prospective of frequency of this stunning phenotype-(i.e.-will 25%, 50%, or (??)% of ALL future joeys show this coloration, or will normal color be expressed at a higher frequency). Partial leucism and complete leucism are very common in mammals of all types, including marsupials. Many folks may have carriers of genetic potential to throw white tips, partial or complete leucistic, or albinos. If incomplete dispersal of metaphores for the dark coloration or pigment of fur is expressed, that doesn't necessarily mean there is genetic potential for the expression of physiological abnormalities. Check into the research of leucism and partial leucism, and even albinism and you'll find that just because we aren't seeing the phenotypic expression frequently, doesn't mean the possibility or probability is as rare as one may think. In the wild, they follow the "survival of the fittest" doctrine and are preyed upon more easily than those individuals expressing the necessary camouflage coloration. I'm quite certain that many potential carriers exist in our captive population of gliders, but as we can't see the genetic potential until a phenotype is expressed, it's then that we regard these carriers as "special". It's a virtual gamble, where we chance being fortunate enough to "accidentally" pair two potential carriers of the same desired expression together! The chances for seeing desired color expressions are rare due to our unavoidable ignorance of the underlying genetic materials' existence, not by an infrequency in said genetic material having the potential to exist. (OK, have I lost everyone now?) In other words, unless one can map the genetic material of potential breeder pairs to KNOW what desirable or undesirable traits are potentially present in their DNA, you simply do as is done now and "wait and see" when a desirable phenotype or color variation is expressed. Once the known carriers of desired traits are recognized, and proper breeding techniques implemented, the frequency and numbers of phenotypic color variations will increase. As I say, leucism especially, is a fairly common occurrence in mammals of all types. It's always nice to see what diversity and surprise "mother nature", AKA science, offers! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />[/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/19/03 10:42 PM

Well said Jeff!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/20/03 01:40 AM

an albino by definition is a complete lack of malanin therefore even if they are bred for that trait they are still genetically albino. FYI <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/20/03 03:43 AM

[:"teal"]Your definition is an oxymoron-( "a complete lack of [melanin]" & "genetically albino" ). How can an individual lack all melanin, yet show a faint dorsal stripe? By definition, you have described what I previously pointed out regarding this pair as [/][:"crimson"]partial leucistics[/][:"teal"]. It seems some may have misconstrued the definition of an albino, which is easy to do. There is no such thing as a partial albino or partial albinism, although some less scientific types may use this term incorrectly. Albinism, Erythrism, Leucism, Melanism, & Xanthism are all different and to delve into a technical discussion of each would entail a very detailed, lengthy, and oft times controversial interpretation, depending on those involved and the level of biological knowledge possessed by each. It's not technically correct to say that this pair in question are considered genetically albino. Rather, they are genetically considered [/][:"crimson"]partial leucistics[/][:"teal"], as previously indicated. An albino often possesses melanin within the eyes, unless an ocular albino, thereby making the definition above of "a complete lack of melanin" technically incorrect. Many albinos have normal colored eyes while the skin lacks all melanin or pigmentation. Leucistics generally have dark colored eyes. [/][:"crimson"]Partial leucistics[/][:"teal"] possess varying degrees of melanophore dispersion in the skin or fur, hence the faint appearance of the dorsal stripe, and eye color may vary as well. If I misinterpreted your point above, could you elaborate please? Keep in mind that a number of the individuals discussing this issue are specifically trained in various undergraduate & post graduate collegiate levels of Biology, Genetics, & Zoology, while others in the discussion have only a casual layman's understanding of the subject.[/] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/20/03 05:11 AM

I have my own theory of what this color is and how it came about. It could be that this is not a partial leucistic but rather a cinnamon/leucistic with both being expressed however leucistic is stronger of the two and so it appears to dilute the cinnamon to a cream color. This also could be why the eyes are red. With the eyes taking the color of the cinnamons. Cinnamons could very well be masking red eyes because other recessive color variations dominate the eye color. It is just a wild guess. But this is what I was intending on breeding for, except the red eyes.

Ushuaia
Posted By: petsugargliders

Re: color variations - 11/20/03 06:52 AM

Okay this is a little off topic, but I have a question, I have a normal gray breeding pair of gliders that I bought from a breeder in MD. Since I have had them the have had 2 twin girls. When they were born, they had black tails, as most babies are, then they turned to rings, similar to a racoon and kept them until they were about 6 weeks old. Both normal in color as they got older and lost the rings. However, When I picked up the pair, she had a boy, about 4 months old, she got from this pair that kept the rings. She emailed me last night, and he is now almost a year old and still has them. Has anyone else seen this variation, or color, or even heard of it? I have a picture of the twin girls where you can sorta see them, the one on the left still has them to an extent she is now 8 weeks.

Attached picture 167305-babies.jpg
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/20/03 09:49 AM

Ushuaia, I kind of agree with your theories. I think that those gliders coloration is caused by a double recessive, but I'm not all to sure about the Cinnamon thing. There are a cocktail of combinations that could cause that, possibly even albinism. They are obviously not true albino, but but there is a chance that they are carriers and mild expressers of the gene (the pail coloration and burgundy eyes). There is also the possibility that they are a completely new color. Genetically speaking, it can happen. Maybe mommy and daddy glider were sitting a little too close to a microwave if you know what I mean. There is a chance that both parents have a genetic flaw (a mutation) that is causing a totally new color to be expressed. Unfortunately there's only one way to know for sure and I highly doubt that these little guys are going to be genetically mapped any time soon. I do like the double recessive idea though. A lot of people on here don't realize that if you have a glider that is het for something there is a very slight chance that there babies could display that coloring even if the other parent is normal. Also, if you breed two different hets, you can produce a double recessive which displays the colors of both genetic traits at once... I have a Punet's square attached that backs my statement.

Attached File
167314-Punets Square.bmp  (61 downloads)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/20/03 03:57 PM

[:"apple"]Calling Brian...we need you to help clarify some apparent misunderstandings beginning to unfold here![/][:"teal"] Theories aside, it's a fact that the phenotype expressed by this pair is clearly not representative of true albinism. True albinism in any animal is caused by a genetic condition that disrupts the metabolism of melanin, the black or brown pigments of animals. Melanophores are cells in the skin that manufacture melanin. If no melanin is produced by an animal's body, dark coloration will not be expressed. For most mammals, including humans, albinism results in a solid white skin and hair. An exception is the eyes. Lacking pigment in the iris, an albino's eyes look pink because tiny blood vessels in the eye are visible. I believe a discussion including the factors I've yet to introduce would only serve to complicate this discussion. Such factors which require further examination by the experts in the field would certainly include the action of modifying genes, dominant spotting, piebaldism, epistasis, & lethality, to name just a few. For example, in contrast to autosomal recessive albinism, classic piebaldism, if involved in this case, is a genetic disease with autosomal dominant inheritance, which would contradict DutchessLively's theory of double recessive inheritance above. FYI...a Punnett square is used to express the realm of possible phenotypes to anticipate from a given or known genetic pairing. If one knows all of the genes involved in the overall expression of the desired or resultant phenotype, then one can certainly figure out the numeric probability or ratio of normal to albino, normal to partial leucistic, etc. Theories aside, I stand by my convictions & firmly believe it's more realistic to expect this particular phenotypic expression as that of [/][:"crimson"]partial leucistic[/][:"teal"]! I'm anxious to hear from Brian-(Wherezat) on his belief, based on his more extensive background in Genetics. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />[/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/20/03 04:23 PM

If you re-read my post you'll see that you are more or less restating what I said. And as far as the Punet's square I wasn't referring to those gliders in particular, but gliders in general and I wasn't saying that a person has to know the ancestry of the glider. I was trying to show the the possibility of genetic variations exist, including double recessives. And that despite breeding two normal gliders there is always the chance of color variations whether the parents are normal or not.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/20/03 05:15 PM

Aren't those gliders platinum? And don't we already know they exist, and they originated from normal color gliders? Let's not make a big deal out of nothing here.... I have blond hair and both my parents have dark hair, that doesn't mean I'm a mutation! Genetics are a whole lot more complicated than can be dealt with on a message board, why don't we all just claim ignorance and be happy?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/20/03 06:09 PM

Ignorance will not cause us to understand the genetics of inheritance. If we continue to ask questions, test theries through selective breeding, and post our results we will all get a better understanding of how gentics of sugar gliders works. These are not platinums because the have no grey in them. These have creme coloration and are as yet the ONLY two known in the world. To assure the continuation of this color will require selectivly breeding the parents and the offspring. Wherezat has a masters in genetics and should help clear this up. I would also ask wherezat to call and talk to Flying Fur Ranch and advise them on how to start establishing a clear line.

Ushuaia
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/20/03 10:00 PM

Maybe someone here can post the Punnett square for glider coloration then so we can get some visible facts. But until then a lot of it is speculation. That's what I was trying to say in my post, and I don't think it was understood.

I just get frusterated when people say make assumptions about glider diet or coloring without having any scientific evidence to back up what they are saying. I think the glider colorations are much more complicated than simply saying dominant and recessive. There could be dihybrid crosses or sex linked traits that mess up all these theories. We just don't know. Hence the ignorance. When we have more facts I would love to see more on this, until then.....
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/20/03 10:16 PM

Flying Fur Ranch already has a geneticist that they are working with. That is why she decided to keep both of them... to see if they can duplicate this awesome cream color.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/20/03 10:26 PM

[:"teal"]There are a multitude of Punnett square possibilities and a hoard of factors involved. I assure you that nothing I've personally stated is "speculation", but based on proven scientific research gleaned from a wide range of experts! HTH! Ask away and I'll be more than happy to expand as much as you would like on intricate details and possible influencing factors! This thread may reach into the volumes before long! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />[/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/20/03 10:58 PM

I just wanted to say- I'm so excited! I actually 'know' the hubby to the breeder of these suggies- he's one of our coati experts- and he is so proud of those cuties! Regardless of how they came about, they are adorable!

*back to your regularly scheduled genetics program*
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/21/03 04:04 AM

My use of the punet's square was just to show the possibility of a double recessive. The possibilities when it comes to genetics are more or less endless I fully acknowledge that. I just wanted to people to be aware of some of the other possibilities that exist when it comes to glider coloration...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I didn't mean to cause a fuss, I just wanted people to be more aware of all that's out there. And let me state this as simply as I can for the record, Punet's squares only show genetic probability based on known inheritance and a complete lack of mutations. I was attempting to show that there are many options available in the glider genetic cocktail and that surprises shouldn't be that surprising.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/21/03 05:18 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]And let me state this as simply as I can for the record, Punet's squares only show genetic probability based on known inheritance and a complete lack of mutations.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/]

[:"teal"]Respectfully, this is simply not true! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" /> Punnett-(correct spelling <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />) squares can and do show mutations and double mutants. Here is a prime example to illustrate [:"apple"]a snow corn Punnett square[/][:"teal"]. In this example, they use “a” for amelanism and “e” for anerythrism. No need for anyone to get upset, it's very easy to get somewhat off track with a highly complex subject matter and even the most well trained scientists in the field tend to disagree on occasion. The ability to pose differing possibilities or scenarios only serves to keep scientists sharp! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />[/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/24/03 02:18 AM

True Punnett's Squares do not show mutations, they show the probability of a trait being genetically expressed. I've actually read Punnett's work and have found it to be very interesting with the green and yellow peas and the long and short stalks... There are variations of the Punnett's Square, but those are usually considered fairly controversial from my understanding because you don't know every mutation possible (thus the reason it's called a mutation) and if you can chart the probability of a mutation then it's "technically" not a true mutation, just a variation.

Oh and as far as the spelling of Punnett, my computer spell check did that. I don't tend to pay much attention to it, but since you felt the need to point it out I'll make the point of spelling it correctly.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/24/03 02:38 AM

Sorry for my absence. Work does keep me away.
Its hard to call these guys one thing or another without actually seeing them. I can tell you that I have seen some of my albino's lighten as they grow and have seen them when they start getting their hair coat have a slight ever so slight stripe. BUT nothing quite this defined... how old are these little ones? Albino's when they first open their eyes have a dark purple color and eventually liten up but again nothing of this similarity. What I find unusual about these guys pictured are their points. (ear tips, feet, etc)
The ear tips in particular have color on the tips.
These pics really remind me of the perlino color in horses.
(basically an incomplete dilution of a solid color body type leaving some color at the horses points. These are typically seen from bay horses (brown with black points).
The offspring will have a cream colored body and a slight redish tinge to the points. Cremelo's on the other hand are completely creme colored and leave no area's of darker coloration.)
What has to be understood is that there will be color variations within "same" colored animals... ie dark gold palamino's and light gold palamino's etc. The more gene pairs the more variation possible by different combinations of dominants, recessives, co dominance, sex linked characteristics, allel placement, etc etc etc
This link will give you an idea about how many possible variations in horse coat color that could be expressed if given the chance.
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/research/coats.html
I do sincerely believe that if these guys do not lighten up with age and stay cream and keep the stripes and tips it proves what I have been saying all along that there has to be dilution factor not unlike that in horses present in glider genetics.
Posted By: Judie

Re: color variations - 11/24/03 03:16 AM

Recent photos of the joeys ....I think the little ones are six weeks or seven weeks oop. First photo of the two on the basket is of the babies at 5 weeks oop.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/24/03 03:45 AM

I must say, regardless of the disagreements, you're all highly intelligent. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> I can't even grasp some of the concepts that you're speaking of, and I consider myself a fairly intelligent individual. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 11/24/03 05:21 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]True Punnett's Squares do not show mutations, they show the probability of a trait being genetically expressed.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/]

[:"teal"]I am not trying to be argumentative, however, when one is describing scientific terms, definitions, or facts, spelling and correctness are of paramount importance. The above statement you've made regarding Punnett squares is simply incomplete, not necessarily untrue in its entirety! With respect to mutations, Punnett squares, invented by REGINALD CRUNDALL PUNNETT (1875-1967), most certainly are used extensively in predicting the likelihood of mutation expression in the phenotype. Please look at the following:

[/][:"sienna"]Chatham College: SUPPLEMENTAL DNA EDUCATION: FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES AND ILLUSTRATIVE ACTIVITIES, Raymond W. Zanetti[/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]Basically, the Punnett Square is a useful tool for showing all possible combinations of alleles in offspring. A Punnett Square is designed to show the genotype of an organism that exhibits a dominant or recessive trait, which can be due to a genetic makeup that is either homozygous or heterozygous for the dominant allele, or homozygous for the recessive allele. By using a Punnett Square, scientists can determine the probability of an offspring to inherit a dominant or recessive trait based on the alleles each parent has for that trait. Punnett Squares can be used to track the probability of inheriting physical traits as diverse as albinism, determined by a recessive allele, to lethal diseases such as Huntington’s disease, which is determined by a dominant allele.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/]

[:"sienna"]Concord Consortium Teachers Guide:[/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]Mutation Inheritance – How Are Mutations Inherited? Description: Mutation Inheritance expands on the previous activity’s exploration of how mutations are inherited. It also gives the students more practice in using Punnett squares to determine the probability of inheriting a [/][:"crimson"]mutated[/][:"apple"] trait.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"apple"]Application of the Punnett Square involving Cystic Fibrosis[/][:"teal"]

Help this helps! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />



Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 03/05/05 08:03 PM

Some people have been asking about albinos so I thought I would bring this to the top it has alot of info and I like reading this!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 05/29/05 12:36 AM

Bumping up cuz I like this post cuz im a dork!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/11/05 05:35 AM

Bump again......
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/12/05 01:16 AM

Wow,what a fascinating thread! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> I'd like to add some ideas that may help everyone (scientists and glider-slaves) be on the same page. I am not going to explain the genetics of color in Sugar Gliders, that subject is (as you can see) under investigation and not fully understood. Molecular markers were developed at the end of last year, and within a short amount of time the genome will be sequenced; this still will not tell us all about the genetics of color, only crosses (breeding) can do that. I will say that in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s,(as in most mammals) color is probably controlled by many genes; genes for both the actual color of the pigment/melanin molecules and what's called "deposition" (putting that pigment into skin/hair/eye cells)which allows for lots of variation.

Mutation is the source of ALL variation in color, so what I am going to try to do is correct/clarify the misinformation that has been posted here about how inheritance/mutation in genes works.

I see a lot of confusion here due to the way certain words are used in common language and the way they're used in science.

EX: "mutation". Mutation is used as both a verb and noun in biology. A mutation in biology (as stated in the first line of the first post) is just a CHANGE in a genetic locus. So it's used as a verb when describing the fact that there has been a change in the DNA sequence,"There was a mutation in gene {G1}, substituting one nucleotide for another to form gene {G2}" and as a noun to describe the result "The {a} allele is a mutation of the {A} allele of the gene for pigment". That's all.

There is no additonal requirement/understanding that once it is passed on to offspring it is no longer considered to be a mutation. IT IS STILL A MUTATION, only then it is an inherited one. A difference between what the DNA sequence was, and what it is now. Whether a mutation is heritable and passed on to offspring is a separate consideration, it does not change it from being a mutation in the first place.

The word mutation is used in common conversation to refer to a BAD physical change that occurs durring the post-birth lifetime of an organism, that then affects the physical condition of that organism itself. True mutations more often affect offspring, because they happen in germ cells or during development. Like the "limb in the middle of your forehead" comment from the first post (more accurately, something like this is called a developmental defect), & like many popular culture icons (Killer Tomatoes, Swamp Thing, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />), which were "mutated" from "normal" things into "mutants" by radiation or toxic chemical waste.

THERE IS NO SUCH NEGATIVE CONNOTATION TO THE TERM MUTATION IN GENETICS. It is neither a "good" or a "bad" thing, it's JUST A CHANGE.

There are also major differences in scale that are being obscured in this thread. Change/mutation can be at the level of the chromosome (which in genetic terms is huge and contains 10000's of genes), or just a single base-pair substitution/insertion/deletion of the DNA (2 molecules, 1/1000 of an average single gene), this small-scale mutation happens all the time, it's happening in your body right now! Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're bad (cancer) and sometimes they have no effect at all. Large-scale/chromosomal mutations are more rare, b/c they affect whole suites of genes and are much more likely to have negative effects, but they do happen.

ALL ORGANISMS HAVE MUTATIONS, by definition, we're all "mutants", b/c through evolution of the genetic code since the beginning of life, we all have many "changes" that have been made to our DNA. I am a pigment mutant! I have blonde hair, which is a homozygous recessive genetic trait, and a MUTATION, b/c my Homo sapiens ancestors (and yours) long ago all had dark hair, and somewhere along my lineage there was a mutation (which has occured and re-occurs throughout human history in different populations) that led to light yellow hair. My husband loves my mutation! And I <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> his mutant blue eyes, which are a homozygous recessive genetic trait that is a mutation! There's nothing judgemental about the correct, biological use of the word.

There is no reason to be defensive about whether the beautiful <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> cream-fur/burgundy-eye gliders, or any specially-colored gliders are the result of a "mutation" or not. They are, whether it was long ago in the ancestors of their parents, or during fertilization/gestation of this pregnancy (which is possible, I'll explain below) makes no difference. It is still a mutation, neither a good or bad thing, just a change from an original genetic state. You can distinguish whether it's a [:"green"] NEW [/] mutation (happened in this organism) or an [:"green"]OLD[/] mutation (happened in a previous generation), but they're all mutations.

2.Why "albinism is not a mutation because it exists/has existed in all animals & is a heritable recessive genetic trait" statements are incorrect:

1st.The opposite of "mutation" is not "normal". There really is no opposite, only "ancestral and derived", i.e. you're not the opposite of your parents/ancestors, you're the descendant/derived of them.

2nd. Albinism does exist in all animals, but that is NOT because the "mutation happend a long time ago and has now evolved to be "normal". There are many different causes (genotypes) and forms (phenotypes) of albinism, they are not all 1 thing.Some of the genes responsible for some kinds of albinism arrose via mutation long ago and have been passed on, but some happen and are happening RIGHT NOW!

Albinism is common because the underlying basis of coloration (i.e. pigmentation) is shared by all animals, and these mechanisms are even more similar among mammals b/c we're very closely related to each other, and changes (mutations) in the genes for pigmentation are common (b/c not fatal to the embryo) and so arrise OVER AND OVER AGAIN, spontaneously, especially in captive-bred organisms, where breeding is much more frequent & survival isn't dependant on cammoflage.

Thus, the mutation could be inherited, but could also have occured this year! It could've been a mutation in the DNA of a parent's germ (sperm/egg) cells, that then went on to make a baby, or even during development of the babies in question, through a mutation (just a change!) in the DNA sequence durring development that leads to lack of pigment and/or pigment deposition. In both of these scenarios, these parents are unlikely to ever have albino offspring again.

For an albino's offspring, this change may or may not be heritable, it depends on whether it was a mutation in the "germ" (reproductive) cells' DNA or "somatic" (non-reproductive) cells' DNA.

If it is a somatic cell mutation, IT IS NOT HERITABLE, it just means a change in the genes of skin cells results in lack of pigment, but that albino will have offspring the color of a combo of its parents because it cannot pass on the mutation, as its germ cells do not have the mutation.

If instead it is a mutation in the germ cells, then the trait will be passed on to the albino's offspring, but will only be expressed (i.e. show up in the "phenotype", the outward appreance of the organism) if the offspring are "homozygous recessive" for the trait. This concept seems to be confusing as well, so let's explore it:

Genes are the instructions for how to build proteins. Recessive means that the gene does not make a protein, or it makes a non-functional version of the protein. A dominant gene makes a functional protein. You only need one FUNCTIONAL (dominant) gene to make enough of most needed proteins, so to express the recessive phenotype, an organism has to have only the [:"blue"]recessive {a} [/] gene, not the [:"red"]dominant {A}[/] in order that no protein is made. How does this work? See below:

A "gene" is named for the trait it gives instructions for (like the gene(s) for pigmentation) and an "allele" is one of the different version/forms of that gene. Ex: I'm using[:"red"]{A}[/]and [:"blue"]{a}[/] as alleles of the gene for pigmentation.Why?->

Diploid" means we have 2 sets of genes (1 from each parent). If we designate the gene for pigment as [:"red"]{A}[/], then the recessive form (which does not make the pigment, due to mutation(s) that occured recently OR in the distant past) is [:"blue"]{a}[/]. This is because genes are assigned names based on the expression of the non-functional (also called the "knock-out") version, in this case "albinism".

Having 2 of the same version (allele) of a gene is being "homozygous", having diferent versions is "heterozygous". So the "genotype" (what genes you have, as opposed to "phenotype", what genes you show) [:"red"]{AA}[/] is homozygous, as is [:"blue"]{aa}[/]. [:"purple"] {Aa} [/] is heterozygous.

"Homozygous recessive", therefore, means you're genotype [:"blue"]{aa}[/], which has a phenotype of [:"blue"]albino[/]. Homozygous dominant means you're genotype [:"red"]{AA}[/],and your phenotype is [:"red"]pigmented[/]. Heterozygous means you have a genotype of [:"purple"]{Aa}[/], and a phenotype of [:"red"]pigmented[/], because 1 copy/version/allele of the gene is enough to make the protein to give you color. Being [:"blue"]{aa}[/] for a gene does NOT mean that gene isn't the result of a mutation, it means you have 2 copies of a version of a gene that doesn't make a protein that the functional/dominant [:"red"]{A}[/] version makes, THAT'S ALL.

As far as offspring, during the formation of "gametes" sex/germ cells like sperm & eggs, the "diploid" genotype is divided, so in 4 eggs or sperm from an [:"purple"]{Aa}[/] parent, 2 will be [:"red"]{A}[/] and 2 will be [:"blue"]{a}[/]. This means that through INHERITANCE [see above for how parents can make different offspring NOT through inheritance][:"red"]{AA}[/] parents can only make [:"red"]{A}[/] gametes, [:"blue"]{aa}[/] parents can only make [:"blue"]{a}[/] gametes, but [:"purple"]{Aa}[/] parents can make EITHER [:"red"]{A}[/] or [:"blue"]{a}[/] gametes.

Gametes are then combined through fertilization to make a new diploid baby, which (barring a [:"green"]NEW[/] mutation) will follow the same rules, previously outlined, of genotype/phenotype. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Punnett Squares allow you to attempt to predict the likelihood of offspring genotype & phenotype, knowing the above ratios. But it is not a guarantee,it's a probability, like when you say you have a 50:50 chance of flipping a coin and getting heads vs. tails. This is true, and with many repeat tosses of the coin it will work out, but if we only toss it twice? Birth sex ratio likelihoods in humans are 50:50, but how many people do you know that have 2 sons or 2 daughters instead of the "likely" one of each? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Especially if the genetic basis for the trait is not truly known, Punnett squares may not tell you much, i.e. we may assume that an albino is [:"blue"]{aa}[/] due to inheritance, but they may in fact be [:"red"]{AA}[/],and have a somatic mutation that makes them albino,but is not passed on. This doesn' mean genetic principles are wrong, but rather that more study is needed to determine the specific genetics of the situation.

Now that we're clear, those adorable little gliders could come from genotypically [:"red"]{AA}[/] parents, and have a NEW mutation in BOTH the genes for deposition of pigment in the eyes and the skin/fur. Thus, they could be "albino-burgundy" in their eyes, and have a related, [:"green"]NEW[/] mutation/change/reason for being creamy with a taupe stripe (not-albino), which is not due to their parents genotypes. In this scenario,the [:"green"]NEW[/] mutation may or may not be heritable, as I said before it depends on whether the babies have this mutation in their germ cells or their somatic cells.

OR, it could be heritable,because of some recessive (non-functional) [:"green"]OLD[/] mutation/version of the pigment gene that the parents happen to both carry [:"purple"]{Aa}[/] and passed onto the twins, such that each twin is [:"blue"]{aa}[/]. Only their offspring will tell us...

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/12/05 01:48 AM

WOW GREAT INFORMATION GEE WIZ LOL WOW cant say any more wowo thats alot of info thanks alot!! I will bump this up if it falls back down this post is in my favorits <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/12/05 02:29 AM

I am glad yall got that it is way over my head.....
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/12/05 03:57 AM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> haha I like genetics so I understood it well the jist of it..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/13/05 03:54 PM

lol, that was a pretty intense little genetics lesson <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />
Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to post that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: petsugargliders

Re: color variations - 06/13/05 05:14 PM

Yes I agree! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/13/05 08:20 PM

Thanks guys! I know it's LONG <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />, but if you can take the time I hope you'll find that it's all in plain language, I define all the bio terms using words we all know, and really I couldn't write less than that and explain it fully...it's not my intention to <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleep.gif" alt="" />blow anybody away, but to help, if there's anything that's still unclear <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />PLEASE feel free to post or PM me, I <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> teaching science!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/13/05 08:47 PM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> Excellent work, Marla!

Especially this part:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
2.Why "albinism is not a mutation because it exists/has existed in all animals & is a heritable recessive genetic trait" statements are incorrect:

1st.The opposite of "mutation" is not "normal". There really is no opposite, only "ancestral and derived", i.e. you're not the opposite of your parents/ancestors, you're the descendant/derived of them.

2nd. Albinism does exist in all animals, but that is NOT because the "mutation happend a long time ago and has now evolved to be "normal". There are many different causes (genotypes) and forms (phenotypes) of albinism, they are not all 1 thing.Some of the genes responsible for some kinds of albinism arrose via mutation long ago and have been passed on, but some happen and are happening RIGHT NOW!

Albinism is common because the underlying basis of coloration (i.e. pigmentation) is shared by all animals, and these mechanisms are even more similar among mammals b/c we're very closely related to each other, and changes (mutations) in the genes for pigmentation are common (b/c not fatal to the embryo) and so arrise OVER AND OVER AGAIN, spontaneously, especially in captive-bred organisms, where breeding is much more frequent & survival isn't dependant on cammoflage.

Thus, the mutation could be inherited, but could also have occured this year! It could've been a mutation in the DNA of a parent's germ (sperm/egg) cells, that then went on to make a baby, or even during development of the babies in question, through a mutation (just a change!) in the DNA sequence durring development that leads to lack of pigment and/or pigment deposition. In both of these scenarios, these parents are unlikely to ever have albino offspring again.

For an albino's offspring, this change may or may not be heritable, it depends on whether it was a mutation in the "germ" (reproductive) cells' DNA or "somatic" (non-reproductive) cells' DNA.

If it is a somatic cell mutation, IT IS NOT HERITABLE, it just means a change in the genes of skin cells results in lack of pigment, but that albino will have offspring the color of a combo of its parents because it cannot pass on the mutation, as its germ cells do not have the mutation.

If instead it is a mutation in the germ cells, then the trait will be passed on to the albino's offspring, but will only be expressed (i.e. show up in the "phenotype", the outward appreance of the organism) if the offspring are "homozygous recessive" for the trait. This concept seems to be confusing as well, so let's explore it:...etc

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I have attempted over and over again to explain exactly this in regards to albinism (and even related principles regarding the leucistic and associated phenotypes) and I feel much of it was dismissed as erroneous jargon in the past, but that right there was a very efficient way of explaining it! ACE, Marla!

I agree, with the fact that though plenty is not known about glider genetics in particular, an intrinsic knowledge of the base principals decrypt much of what appears to at first be a complex mess.

At the same time, genetics can get very complicated and highly involved. I feel the biggest mistake in terms of the approach to glider genetics around here, is that I have seen many on here simply treat glider colour genetics like they were simple pea colour genetics, seemingly taking a basic chart of percentages right out of something like a highschool textbook and corresponding a particular glider trait to a basic example/model, saying "OK, well the glider albino gene (which btw is often treated here on GC as a single trait caused by a single genotype) is like this recessive trait and according to this chart, if I were to cross breed blah with blah I would get presicely blah % of blah offspring..." The nature of the glider genetics, especially in regards to the colour genes, is actually considerably more involved than that, and if understanding the nature of all genes of all organisms was that simple, we'd all be profficient geneticists by taking a simple one month course! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/14/05 05:46 AM

So what is the difference between a variation and a mutation, or are they the same thing?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/14/05 06:04 AM

I think genetic mutation causes phenotypic(visual color)variation.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/27/05 03:02 AM

I feel that I may be being pointed out for the misinformation that is being used around this board. For those of you who have not been around for long or if this is the ONLY post of mine you have ever read, let me introduce myself.
I have a B.S. in Animal Science and a M.S. in Animal Breeding/Population Genetics. What is population genetics, you may ask. Well population genetics, also sometimes referred to as or in conjunction with quantative genetics, statistical genetics, or animal husbandry (that's an old one though). Primary focus is on the population as a whole working a lot with statistical probabilities, gene frequencies, heritabilities, and things like that. For example, based on exhibited traits of sire and dam (dad and mom) and how often the trait was exhibited in the ancestry, mating this bull with this cow will give us x amount probability of producing an animal that will yield more milk or meat....
When a population is observed we can classify traits as normal, wild-type, short, tall, or any pertinant term that may be easier to keep a distinction present. I've seen different terms used at the discretion of the person in charge of the research. It would be easy to get confused if we just referred to every variation as a mutation.
When I started this thread that is exactly what was happening, everything that was not a wild type of color (which in this instance would be grey or cinni)was being referred to as a variation while albanism was being referred to as a color mutation. (see post Leucistic with wfb from around 7/03 in this section of GC.)
Now as almost everyone knows my wife and I have been extremely blessed with a grey pair of gliders that have produced 13 babies 6 of which have been albino gliders. From the 6 albino's: 1 has died (the necropsy only found an enlarged liver and she was over a year old before she died), 1 has not bred (Just got pedro back from my brother and the female he had her with is no larger than the joey's I had come oop in Feb of this year even though she is over 3 yrs), and the last just came oop on Feb of 05. Of those so far I have had 2 that were born twin with grey colored gliders.
Things may increase a little, we have another set of twins in pouch now and should be seeing some little butts soon.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
That being said, I stand behind everything I have said in the posts I have written.
The term mutation, while having no technical distinction of being either good or bad, has a negative connotation when used by the general public (see the post referrenced above and note the suggestions on dealing with mutations).
Mutations can be induced (by man) or occur naturally over time thru evolution (yet another word some people have a negative connotation about). Mutations can also be recurrent
(heritable, able to be passed thru the population and therefore can cause a change in the population) or non-recurrent (singular unique event with no affect on the population). The referrence to Blue eyes in humans has been made previously in another reply. Blue eyes, as we know, is a mutation but when talking about it we simply refer to it as a recessive trait. The first ever time blue eyes, albainsm, or dwarfism appeared it was a mutation, when it became an ingrained part of the genotype of the population, it became a recessive trait. I'm not talking a biological change but a referrence change ONLY.
Genes mutate all the time little by little and sometimes greatly and instantaniously and a mutated gene can mutate back to a wild-type gene, it's not strictly a one way thing.
I am NOT a teacher, and have NEVER wanted to be. I do not mind being asked a question and giving an answer but I do have a problem with people wanting to argue with me on points they either do not know anything about or do not choose to view from every possible angle, that is why I have suggested numerous times that people read or do more research instead of just asking questions, some of my best professors challenge their students in just this way. I am not a gene jockey (those who map genes, etc, and are mostly more concerned about the bioligical make up of the traits. Learned that term from my genetics professor..... no offense meant to anyone), I don't try and manipulate genetic sequencing and do not work on altering or enhancing the genes in any way that does not involve the act of mating . That being said, I also stand behind my belief that the only way to make the concepts of genetics NOT confusing to laymen is to start at the beginning, using the most simple terms and the most simple examples of homozygous dominant, heterozygous, and homozygous recessive traits. You can not expect any one to learn anything unless you break the misconceptions and start from the beginnings, so to speak. No class, whether it be science, math, or english , I have ever been in has started with the more difficult area' before addressing the basics. I still do not see how me referring to this as "hiding"(specifically some facts about mutations, btw if you have not guessed it yet words in "" are usually meant with a SARCASTIC tone) is a bad thing.
I never at any point stated that laymen could not understand or inferred that ANYONE was too ignorant to understand the concepts of genetics. I did, however, state that genetics can be confusing and that even though I have a degree I still find the concepts mind blowing, and by that I mean I am still in awe of how genes work. I also stated that when terms like mutation and evolution are used, some people will have a hard time accepting those concepts, again, no inference meant to anyone's intelligence but more of a referrence to the cringing effect words like these can cause in the general public. I do not claim to understand everything that can and will happen genetically, NO ONE CAN, that is why I referred to genetics as an "exact" science, theories are formulated and proven or disproven everyday.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/27/05 05:13 AM

Thanks Brain Cant wait to see your new lil joeys and the other two that just came oop talk to you soon bye <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/27/05 09:58 AM



While genetics IS mind-blowing and amazing, and nobody fully understands how it all works exactly, and there is much left to discover, there are basics than CAN be explained simply, to aid with understanding, and MANY GCer's have PM'd me to just that effect, thanking me for my clear and understandable post.

The things I discussed ARE the beginning when it comes to inheritance & mutation <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />.

Yes, "wild-type" is used as the designation for the typical trait (like color) found in nature, where it is subject to natural selection, but none of my colleagues would ever call it "normal", as this creates a perjorative "abnormal" connotation to variation (caused by mutation) that is not correct or warranted.

When we talk recessive/dominant, it isn't so we don't get confused about what was a mutation, we're talking about something entirely different, i.e. HOW THE TRAIT IS INHERITED AND EXPRESSED. A Wild-type trait CAN ALSO BE RECESSIVE. Thus,[recessive vs. dominant] has nothing to do with whether the trait was a mutation, it is well understood (as I stated last post) that all variation is generated by mutation, and that's wonderful <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />! We have a beautiful world of living things because of it.[/]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations *DELETED* - 06/28/05 01:47 AM

Post deleted by gliderdad79
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations *DELETED* - 06/28/05 08:21 AM

Post deleted by gliderdad79
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations *DELETED* - 06/28/05 11:40 AM

Post deleted by gliderdad79
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: color variations - 06/28/05 11:37 PM

I must apologize again for my part in the thread running amuck. If at any time I ever say something that is not clear
please email me and we'll discuss further. I promise I won't bite.
Correct on variations being caused by mutations.
I do have one question, did anyone at all understand what I meant when I said that once a mutation becomes ingrained in the populations genotype we don't need to refer to it as a mutation? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: color variations - 06/29/05 11:45 PM

This post has served its purpose, and has gotten way off topic. I will close this topic now!!!
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