GliderCENTRAL

BML article on GU

Posted By: Anonymous

BML article on GU - 05/19/07 11:54 PM

I was on GU and read a topic called BML: Breeding Monstrous Lies. I was wondering then why do so many feed it.

Please advise on interpretation.....Reading this leads me to think that I'm not feeding my babies the best that they could be getting. And am now looking into The Sugar Glider Exotic Diet and the one modiied by GU.

Thanks for any input.







Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 12:39 AM

I just read something about someone being upset because their vet didn't like BML.
That's all the input I have..
Maybe this diet isn't such a good idea?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 12:44 AM

Maybe you should ask Bourbon. She would be able to give you all the info you need.
Posted By: krysKritters

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 02:03 AM

That is what I would suggest. Bourbon definatley understands all that diet "stuff" and ratios way better than me. smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 02:17 AM

I read the same thing you did Jasmine. I feed my gliders BML and they seem to do just fine on it (very healthy and active) and I know a lot of people have been using this diet for years with out problems.

I don't really know what to think about this article and was going to post something about it too. I would really like to see what Bourbon has to say about this. I guess with every diet there will be people who don't like it. That is part of the reason why we don't diet bash around here.
Posted By: Mel2mdl

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 02:34 AM

This has come up numerous times on this site. GU is very, very, very, very anti-BML. They really don't provide much documentation or information other than diet bashing. Bourbon put alot of work into BML and the ratios are good. There is no difference between reptile vitamins and "mammel" vitamins - same stuff.

Don't go changing your diet due to this. If you decide to change, do so for a good reason. I'll see if I can find the whole discussion on this from earlier!
Posted By: Mel2mdl

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 02:38 AM

Okay - this one is about GU in general, not the diet one. Still looking for that one. smile

http://www.sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/ub...true#Post281411
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 01:57 PM

Thanks for the link I guess I'll have to think more about it and see what is best for my babies.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 02:00 PM

I'm sorry if anyone thought I was bashing I just want what's best for my babies. Not to hurt anyone.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 02:10 PM

I agree with Mel2mdl. I have never seen any kind of documentation about this. You should choose what diet you want, but I wouldn't take BML out of it because of this article. That is the only place I have seen that attitude towards this diet and I am not changing mine unless I see some negative results that are directly related to the diet. This is true of any diet and not just BML.

I have talked to people who have used this diet for MANY years without problems. My gliders were on a bad diet (that their breeder was using) and with in weeks of changing to a proven diet I saw dramatic results. They are healthy and happy and that is all I want.

I am not saying that BML is the absolute best diet for these guys, but it is right for me. I looked at all of the diets and decided which one I liked. Whatever you choose is fine as long as it is a proven diet. It's good to ask questions, so please continue to do research like you have been doing. You are going to be a great glider slave!

edit: I didn't think you were bashing the diet. I would be concerned too if I read this article while I was choosing a diet. It's good you asked about it laugh
Posted By: Carrie T

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 02:25 PM

You aren't the first newby to find this site and question BML nor will you be the last. It comes up several times a year. To me it just shows that you are doing your research. I've been using BML for 6 years and 11 months. I can tell you my gliders are doing just fine on it. wave
Posted By: SpikenPea

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 04:10 PM

Just think of BML as a 3 part diet. A nectar (Leadbeaters), fruit and veggie. So in a manner of speaking each part of the dieat is a supplement. Put them all three together and you have a well balanced diet.
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 05:45 PM

Er, reptile vitamins are ALOT different than mammal vitamins.. Reptile vitamins are designed to absorb into reptiles just as the article states. There is also a compound in the repcal that goes into the area that forms new skin for the reptile prior to shedding and helps it absorb the sun's rays even though it is beneath the outer layer of skin. Exposing non-skin-shedding animals to this compound can cause tumors or skin cancer. It's especially dangerous for albinos because of their sensitivity to the sun. The overdose statement is entirely valid as well, although the fact of it is, any pregnant live-bearing creature on this planet that ingests too much of something will usually turn out just fine. The baby almost completely absorbs it. I suspect that this is why people seem to have such a problem with glider cannibalism. There are probably other factors as well, but when the baby absorbs most of the vitamin while mom is pregnant, the mother isn't getting much of it, so when the baby is oop... Munch munch. That's mom's desire to replace her lost nutrition.

I know for absolute fact that everything I say is true in breeding gerbils and rats. But, I have never owned a glider. It just seems to make TOO much sense to me..

Also, take note that I never mentioned any specific diet, but I am willing to say that some supplements are just.. Not meant for gliders. The vitamin itself would be fine if you could seperate the compound from it, but.. You know..


ETA: The skin cancer occurs because alot of this compound concentrates in the skin and if the animal receiving the compound can't shed its skin or release some of it through sitting in the sun(which gliders aren't able to do), it just sits there and collects. Tumors can occur, but gliders are oh so good at hiding their illnesses, and this is why I'm guessing nobody has done research or asked their vet why their glider seems a little chubbier than usual.
I will speak to Dr. Garrison about this later on this evening and providing that this topic isn't locked when I come back, I will let you know what he says about it. The man has been working with gliders since before they were allowed in the states, so he should have a pretty good idea about whether or not this stuff is alright.
Posted By: Carrie T

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 08:48 PM

I can't see why this thread would be closed, it's no different than any previous threads about BML. If you don't care to feed your glider reptile vitamans you might want to consider Pricilla's diet. It's also listed in our diets and uses the vitamans you are interested in. thumb
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 09:22 PM

I like Priscilla's diet best.. Mostly because I haven't heard anything bad about it.
I need to find a diet that doesn't require a blender. Either that, or I need to get myself a blender.

Anywho..
Garrison's isn't open on Sundays I guess.
But another thought occurred to me. When gliders rip out their fur, perhaps they are trying to get rid of the supplements concentrated in their skin? The fur grows from the skin.. Maybe this also plays a part in the way gliders' coat colors change when they aren't being fed properly.

Just throwing out ideas.

Though I do realize that the hair ripping has been proven stress related..

I don't have a problem with BML, I just don't like the use of reptillian supplements on creatures that are not reptillian..
Posted By: Carrie T

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 09:29 PM

The only thing that ever bothered people about Pricilla's diet is that she refused to tell anyone what was in the vitamans. That bothered some people and never fazed others. You have to decide for yourself what will work best. wave
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 09:34 PM

I've not heard of gliders ripping out their fur, unless you are speaking of overgrooming? Generally the cause is stress (and usually someone can find some pretty good indicators of that), poor diet, infection, etc. Also, there are plenty of gliders on diets with reptile vitamins that have wonderful looking coats. I've also never heard of a glider with skin cancer, or dying of skin cancer, and reptile vitamins have been used for years.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 09:54 PM

Hello,

I for one have used this diet for years. I make it myself, and have never had any problems with it. However, they only get it say like on Tues. and Thursday, two days a week. Their are some things to remember, we have so many places on the net that have different opinions and say feed them this, don't feed them that, etc...If you are really concerned go to someone that is credible, and when I say credible I mean a breeder that has been in the business for a long time. Chris, whom is out of Texas has been a breeder for 10+ years now, and she recommends feeding this as well. She also recommends that you give them a frozen ear of corn once every two or three weeks, but be sure to douse it very heavily with Rep-Cal. As I keep rep-cal on all their food to supplement their vitamins. I do not feed meal worms for the simple fact too much protein can cause agressiveness in males. I do however, when my female is pregnant ensure that her protein intake is higher than the other gliders ;-) Hope this helps!!

Paige
Posted By: Carrie T

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 10:04 PM

Mealworms are more of a fat than a protein. In BML they are used more for cleaning teeth than for their protein. I've never heard of protein causing agressiveness in males either. I must say I've had many more males than females also. dunno
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 10:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Paigea41
Hello,
I do not feed meal worms for the simple fact too much protein can cause agressiveness in males.

They are omnivores, they need protein to be healthy. Too much would be unhealthy, but offereing mealworms in lieu of other sources isn't going to upset things one way or the other. I have two male gliders that get mealworms, as well as other protein sources regularly, and are not aggressive at all. I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I wanted to make it a point that that is not true.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/20/07 11:18 PM

I think you have a good point when it comes to the reptile vitamins. Which one of them, rept-cal or herptivite has the skin replenishment compounds in it?

As for trusting a BREEDER, who has been breeding for 10+ years, well, I am sorry to all you breeders out there, but i just dont trust breeders unless i know them (like the people here on GC) but just because they are breeders, doesn;t make them the end all be all of glider care. Breeders, like most other sugar glider owners have questions. You can go on and on about what is the perfect diet for a glider, but the fact of the matter is, there is no ONE PROVEN perfect diet out there.. That info is great new info, and hopefully someone who knows about diets and such can take that into concideration and make another updated version on the diets.. Theres a modified Leadbeaters, which means that the leadbeaters diet has evolved, so why can BML, PML, or any other diet do the same.. I think this info is WELCOMED..

Again, back to the breeders thing, I will ONLY trust a vet. And not just any vet. I will only trust a vet that specializes in gliders (which is extremely hard to come by) or a zoologist. Any single person who has devoted their lives to research on these creatures should be the ones to give indefinite answers to questions like this. I wish that there were more people in this country that have that kind of knowledge, but unfortunately, those people are very hard to find right now.

I have read that in other animals, like dogs, certain protiens can make dogs more aggressive. But if my memory serves me right, it was because of the growth horomones given to the animals that were used to make the food. We all know that the meat in pet foods in not the best, and they use steriods and such on them
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 12:12 AM

The skin thing..
Ergh.
Okay.. Most supplements specifically made for reptiles aid in the reproduction of skin and scales in shedding reptiles. In other reptiles that receive this such as tortoises that don't shed, the vitamin concentrates in the shell and claws; making them thicker and stronger (this is mostly the calcium doing the strengthening) and since most of the tortoise's weight is focused on the claws when moving through sand or gravel, the claws are worn down quickly and the concentrated calcium and vitamins in the tortoise's body are activated by the rays of the sun. They aid in digestion and reproduction of other cells in the body. The tortoise's shell grows as the tortoise grows. Ever driven past a pond and seen turtles basking on a log? Tortoises do the same thing, only I think they prefer basking on dry land.
Skin cancer in mammals in nature is always linked to the sun or to the parents. If both parents had skin cancer, the little one should stay out of the sun. With our planet-ruining man-made chemicals, we are able to create skin cancer in much more horrible ways.
In the wild, eastern painted turtles get their calcium by eating snails and clams. They chomp through and eat both the meat and the shell. This is natural. Unfortunately, a turtle that isn't accustomed to doing this may not chew very well and could easily choke. That is why we have calcium supplements. Calcium and vitamins are usually described as different things, although some consider calcium a vitamin and there isn't much wrong with that either as long as both are supplied properly.
Our beloved pets; snakes, turtles, and lizards; must be supplied with artificial supplements instead of eggs, shellfish, or small mammals with bones. Snakes eat eggs in the wild. You've seen how they unhinge those tricky jaws on national geographic. Turtles have the shellfish. Snakes have the bones of their prey. Some species of reptiles don't need alot of calcium whether they are pets or not. Anoles, for example.. They eat the powdered crickets, but they don't necessarily need it. I know of plenty anoles that have never had it and are living just fine.
If a snake were to have a calcium supplement, I could totally understand it. Most feeder mice are bred in horrid conditions. The mothers are not supplied with adequate calcium, therefor the babies are lacking in that department as well. Calcium supplements are probably necessary for the snakes consuming the mice.
But gliders can be fed unpeeled boiled eggs, and now apparently chicken bones are becoming more popular too. If we fed these more often, would these reptile supplements really be necessary?
Aside from calcium, I can't see how a normal diet would be lacking in any other vitamin.. The little fellas eat so many different types of fruit and veggies. Most insects are 80% protien while beef is only 20% to 35%. I'd say gliders are getting fantastic nutrition without reptillian supplements.
There is one perfect way to solve this problem. Someone needs to do hands-on research on gliders living in the wild. But considering an elderly glider in the wild is about seven years old, maybe that wouldn't help. I don't know.
When I get my gliders, I will not allow them to be fed something that was made for a lizard. They aren't lizards. They're sugar gliders. I'll be getting something from the vet.
In the meantime, feed your gliders what they are used to being fed. Call your vet. Whatever you do, don't listen to the fifteen year old.
I apologize for the length of this post, but I am genuinely concerned about this sort of thing. You wouldn't feed an equine anti-inflammatory tablets meant for a canine.. So why would you feed a marsupial supplements meant for a reptile?
I may be young, but this just doesn't sound right at all..
Well, I have to go for now. I have to keep an eye on two of my friend's suggies for tonight.
Posted By: SpikenPea

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 12:39 AM

Or yu may wish to use the vionate line instead of rep cal. I know that the instructions say no substitutuions, but teh Healesville version uses vionate with no problems.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 12:46 AM

A calcium supplement is necessary in both a captive glider's diet, as well as captive lizards. Both have been shown to develop metabolic bone disease.
The vitamins I know of come from natural sources, so why would chicken bones or egg shells be any different? Obviously, with the powdered vitamins, there is a definite convenience issue. You'd have to waste the chicken to get the bones--you can't cook it in seasonings, and even if left plain, you don't want to eat directly off of the bone, then offer it to your gliders. Also, for people like me, I don't eat chicken, so I'd never have bones readily available.

As far as offering different species meds to another, that's a whole other story. Yes, some things were designed specifically for a certain animal. I'm sure an equine anti-inflammatory would have far more medicine than a dog needs. On the other hand, as an example, several meds made for humans have been used cross species (my brother has to give one of his dogs pepcid ac), while some can be dangerous (aspirin, I think?). Some diets for gliders include cat food and the gliders are healthy. Cat food has additives(I'm sure vitamins) for cat health. Reptile vitamins have been used successfully in gliders for quite some time. I think it's hard to say they are bad for gliders, when there appears to be a pretty good track record.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 12:46 AM

I'm sorry I did not mean for that to come across in a bad way if it did. However, yes, it is very true that it makes them very aggressive, i've experienced it. Yes, they need protein as mine get it, I just have cut meal worms out of their diet and they do not get it often anymore. I have a friend who has bred gliders for 10+ yrs and I called her due to the aggressivness going on amongst the males and she informed me of this. I cut meal worms out, and gave them other things for protein and i've not had anymore problems. I think it all depends on how we raise our gliders as to what we prefer and what we have experienced ;-) But thank you for the info.

Paige
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 01:33 AM

I just think it would be hard to prove any direct correlation between offering mealies and male aggression. Aside from the fact that many of us have non-aggressive, sweet males AND feed them mealies... I'd also say mine, as well as many others, get at least, if not more than 30% protein total (from your other post).
What explains female aggression, then? Why is it that only males are effected by mealies? How old were your boys when they were aggressive? Gliders sometimes go through a "teenage" stage where they are a bit nippier than usual. Were they near other males? Were they near females? This could also explain aggression in males.
I just think there are far to many variables, as well as overwhelming proof on the other side of the story, to say that this is a fact.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 02:13 AM

I have several male gliders and I give them all about seventy mealies a week and they are the opposite of aggressive. I have never even heard of that before. I have had gliders accidentally bite my finger instead of the mealworm...but that is and accident, not aggression.
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 03:07 AM

Catfood is very bad for gliders. Read up on it.

Also, this is the protien issue.
The protien in an animal is mostly concentrated in its muscles. This is why people eat animal muscles (the meat). The more muscle an animal has, the more testosterone it produces. Intact males produce alot of testosterone already, and feeding excessive protien only increases it. The aggression factor may not affect all gliders, not even all intact males, but there is a definite chance of it. The simple solution is to slowly cut down on the protien. I believe that a glider that has been getting lots of protien and suddenly gets none at all is more likely to be aggressive. Also, if they get.. Oh lets say.. All of their protien in one night, the night after they may try to attack another animal or person to get protien from it. Like I said, this doesn't affect all gliders, but it happens.

I wouldn't be too worried about the protien thing unless you see an obvious change in behavior.
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 03:17 AM

And, aproductof, I was talking about feeding canine medications to an equine. You are what you eat. Canines eat meat with a small amount of vegitation to aid digestion and bowel movements along with eyesight. Equines are straight-up herbivores. The specific inflammatory aids maid for a canine will only work properly in a canine. They may help the pain in an equine, but they could promote irritation in the stomach if given orally due to the difference in the way they are digested.
My favorite ever is bird medications or cuttlebone. Cuttlebone is very hard and tough because pet birds use storebought grit to aid in digesting their food. When other animals are fed cuttlebone, it irritates their stomach and often causes them to vomit up other nutrition that they need.
Simple fact: Pets should not be given something that was not specifically made for them.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 04:22 AM

Posted by Shuttershade

"Whatever you do, don't listen to the fifteen year old."

What does that MEAN exactly? That part made no sense to me what so ever.

You make a few good points, but you also make some weak arguments that SOUND informed. You know a lot of reptiles, and I will give you that, but you do not even have a sugar glider yet?

The herptivite vitamins that you are talking about do not mention anything as to producing replenishing cells for reptiles when they shed. So instead I did some reseach as to which vitamins promote cell growth, and which ones inhibit cell growth. Now there are a TON of different types of vitamins on there, so I just do not have time to go through all of them but i did find the following:

Glutamic Acid helps promote healthy nerve endings and is given to help cancer patients.

Choline as is essential in nerve functions and is given to help cancer patients, and animals deficient in choline are suseptable to liver cancer

Niacin has been known to kill hypoxic cancer cells in animals

And thats all i have for now..

But i think facts are more important than talk. You have repeated things that are vague. what in the vitamins or combination of vitamins, minerals and acids that we feed are going cause rapid skin cell growth? Why is it JUST skin cell growth. Just because the it effects the skin of the reptile, doesnt mean it will effect the skin of a mamal the same way. Each species of animals break down and use vitamins, minerals, and acids different ways. So just because it is absorbed by reptiles one way does not mean it is absorbed by sugar gliders the same.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 05:54 AM

All this talk about BML has gotten me thinking and now I have questions, one of which is: Does anyone use Vionate instead of Herptivite when making BML. I could've sworn that I read somewhere on the Suncoast website that Vionate may be used instead of Herptivite for BML (in conjunction with Rep Cal calcium). Anybody know?

The reason I ask is that if people are concerned about Herptivite, being made for reptiles and all, perhaps shouldn't be used for mammals than is it possible to substitute with Vionate since it is made for mammals? Are the ingredients in Herpitive different than Vionate? The straight Rep cal calcium shouldn't really be a concern though - it's pure, natural calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate is calcium carbonate, whether it's for a human, a horse, a lizard, or a sugar glider.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 10:41 AM

Shuttershade- I have read up on cat food, and while I don't incorporate it into my diet for gliders, it has been used successfully in MANY gliders for years. It is not the sole diet, and is probably more widely used in the UK, but it is used VERY successfully.
You are talking about carnivores and omnivores of different species, but what about within the same? The SAME vitamins are used for carnivorous, omnivorous, AND herbivorous reptiles. And, as far as I know, the same for nocturnal and diurnal reptiles, who most certainly metabolize several vitamins differently from each other. In any case, you were talking about an anti inflammatory--I don't understand how an animals digestion effects that? Perhaps it has a special casing?
As far as not giving pets something specifically made for them... Unfortunately, there's not a lot out there for gliders. In any case, I think I've already given several examples of things that can be used cross species.

You also mentioned animal muscle protein causing aggression in males, however, this does not explain mealies. In any case, many feed chicken as a protein source, and some offer live/frozen prey, such as pinkies. In my experience with feeding either of those, I've never seen heightened aggression. They eat bugs and small animals in the wild--if you want to talk about feeding animals what's designed for them, that's it!

Padros4--there are differences between vionate and herptivite. You wouldn't be able to incorporate them into the BML mix.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 02:05 PM

This is what I was talking about from Suncoast's website:

"If you are using Leadbeater's Mix as the primary part of your sugar gliders diet, we recommend a dosage of 1 Teaspoon of Vionate and 2 Teaspoons of Rep-Cal Calcium per single batch."

I'm new, so I was wondering if "Leadbeater's Mix" refers to BML, or does it refer to the original diet before it was modified?
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 02:22 PM

I'll have to find the site I was looking at. Someone had posted on thier page that catfood did something bad to the gliders. It didn't say a specific type of catfood, it said dry catfood. Then under it it said "Solution: NEVER feed catfood!"
I'll look for it when my headache clears up.

Also, please read my posts more carefully. I clearly said that excessive protien does not affect all gliders. It's a natural chemical reaction and the fact of the matter is, it can happen. Just because it hasn't happened to you, doesn't mean it can't happen. I know of a couple of gliders that are highly sensitive to protien in their diets. They go berserk and have withdrawls from it. Although one of them is in fact a rescue from an awful home. On the other hand, there is a glider that I am very well acquainted with (I am babysitting him as we speak) and he gets mealies and boiled chicken nearly every day. He's nothing but a big lover. He's intact, too. It can happen, but it doesn't always happen.
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 02:27 PM

&,
There are atleast three different calcium supplements for reptiles that I am aware of. My vet does not recommend any of them, but he has explained to me that one of them has nothing added to it that would make it unique for reptiles. In fact, some people mix it with their pet birds' grit to substitute cuttlebone. My vet showed me this supplement along with another that was specifically for reptiles. He explained to me that there was an enzyme in the powder that attracted itself straight to the reptiles' skin and bones. I'll look for specific product names, once again, when my headache clears up.

(Just got back from the hospital which is why I'm not in school.)
Posted By: SugarBaby22

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 04:55 PM

I think some of you are looking for a perfect diet, and you're not going to find that. We have several diets that are different and all work... the gliders get what they need and thrive.

As far as your comment on cat food, it just goes to show that you shouldn't always believe what you read without doing further research. Cat food alone would not be a balanced diet for Sugar Gliders, but a high quality cat food without a bunch of junk in it, could be a good diet for gliders, with other things of course. However, I just don't agree that Sugar Gliders are the types of animals that should be fed something straight out of a box. The main reason that cat food is not suggested is because it can cause gliders to get a tooth abcess, or come down with lumpy jaw. They are sap suckers by nature, so anything hard and fed all the time, is going to be considered to be bad for them. Quicko makes a pelleted Sugar Glider food, I have seen it appearing on the shelves of pet stores...I bought some to check it out. The pellets are just as hard as cat food.. so even though this new stuff is made FOR gliders, I would consider it to be something to steer clear of.

As far as not using things for one species that is meant for another.. that is inevitable. It happens everywhere, all the time.. for everything. Animals eat human food, animals get human medications.. and animal foods/vitamins are used on other species than what they are meant for. Not saying it's the BEST thing, but I've seen Ferrets eat cat food.. Hedgehogs eat cat food.. Chinchillas eat rabbit pellets... Humans and animals recieve Amoxicillian..

When manufacturers put something on the market, I'm sure that they aren't aware of everything that their product can be used for, and even if they did, they can't market it for everything. Rep-Cal vitamins have been working for many, many years for Sugar Gliders.. I'm sure someone could almost duplicate the vitamins and call them something glider related.. and people would feel more comfortable feeding them because they are directed straight at Sugar Gliders rather than reptiles.

No diet out there is perfect, nobody knows ENOUGH about gliders yet to be able to say what is THE BEST thing out there for them. All we can do now is offer them balanced diets and keep researching.

The basic diet for sugar gliders should always follow the basic plan.. "Protein Source + Fruits & Vegetables + a Nutritional Supplement + fresh water".

I myself have been feeding BML for a little over 5 years and I have nothing but healthy Sugar Gliders. grin If I ever went to another diet, I'd go to Priscilla's.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 04:58 PM

you still havent answered the questions at hand though. I listed a number of ingredients in the herptivite that actually HELP with cancer patients and in no way would CAUSE cancer. I would really like to know which vitamins/amino acids/ minerals or combinations of them would cause such an effect in a glider like that?

In order to produce rapid cell growth at a rate in which it will cause cancer, there will have to be a large amount of that particular substance over a long period of time. At that point, we can disect EVERYTHING we feed them and find at least on thing that causes cancer in animals or humans.

Unless you can point out the difference that is apparent in reptile vits, then I just have to take this with a grain of salt. Kind of like when the news was saying that broccoli caused cancer.

And you also never explained your whole: "dont listen to the 14 year old" comment.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 05:02 PM

also, i forgot to add..

The Rept-Cal is pure oyster shell and nothing more, so there is nothing in that powder specific to reptiles. SO it doesn't make sense why your vet would not recommend those.

are you aware that almost all animals are givin amoxicillan, which is a cross species antibiotic. So really, the whole, it was made specifically for this type of animal arguement doesnt hold water unless you tell us the compound that is used for skin re-growth.

Posted By: BlndGrl8

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 05:25 PM

I use BML too and I'm totally fine with the rep-cal and herptivite vitamins. Calcium is calcium and vitamins are vitamins. Sugar Gliders are going to process the vitamins differently than reptiles, taking what their body needs and humans who take calcium and vitamins are going to process it differently than an animal would. If it was the same substance but called Sugar-Cal instead of Rep-Cal, maybe people would feel differently about it. dunno
Posted By: Usha77

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 05:33 PM

Lindsay, I think what Shuttershade was saying is that they are the 15 year old & you shouldn't take their word for it, but should talk to a vet? That's what I got out of that, but dunno
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 05:43 PM

I don't know what the compound is. I was told of three different types of calcium. One my vet didn't have in his posession, one he recommended only to reptiles, and one he didn't recommend, but didn't particularily have a problem with. One of these supplements was just.. Calcium.. One of them was calcium with a skin vitamin(and according to him, the most popular of the three) and the one he did not have in his posession was apparently being passed off as nothing but calcium carbonate, but it included steroids and growth manipulators; the buyers feed it to their pet, the pet grows, they think the pet is healthy. I was told that this last supplement is not common in pet stores anymore.

The cancer is not as common as the skin problems. When this skin production compound goes into a lizard, the lizard sheds its skin. Gliders do not shed their skin. The skin gets thick to the point where the glider could very well be malnourished and the owner isn't aware of it (though if your glider's food is disappearing, obviously he's eating just fine). The underside of the bottom layer of the glider's skin becomes irritated (the skin grows outward) and the skin production slows to accomodate the irritation. The glider's skin stays the same thickness or goes back to normal quickly, and a problem is almost never noticed. But now the glider has all of these chemicals floating around near its skin. Gliders have nearly all of thier natural instincts even while they live with us. The glider is going to try to expell the chemicals the best it can. Since the skin has little connection to the bladder or bowels of a glider, the chemicals must be expelled through scent glands and perspiration-like release of moisture. Gliders don't particularily perspire.. But they do release moisture through their skin, which is another reason they are prone to dehydration. A sugar glider releases the same amount of moisture that a large rabbit does, but sugar gliders are smaller than large rabbits. They require more water. The more foreign chemicals that are in a glider's body, the more moisture it is going to release through its skin to attempt to expell them.

Also.. I forgive your ignorance, but I have no problem with the pure calcium. I am talking about reptillian supplements that are ENCOURAGED for marsupials. Oh yeah, and.. Learn to read perhaps.. I'm fifteen. Not fourteen.

I am trying to prevent animal abuse. I have not yet figured out what you guys are trying to do..
Encourage it?
I don't know..
Just do your poor defenseless pets a favor and if you're going to give them calcium, read the ingredients labels.
Please. I beg of you.
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 05:48 PM

Also, I have just finished some animal testing (Using crickets. Don't freak out.) and I will take photographs later this evening after the effects show more accurately what long term exposure to these things can do to a critter.

I can't wait too long because everytime I try, the cricket dies.

I do realize that crickets are different than lizards and sugar gliders, but I have done the same experiment with several different insects. All have died. I was also informed that an older boy heard of this experiment and tried it with sparrows. Needless to say, one did not do well.

Sugar gliders hide their illnesses so well. What if they are hiding this?

EDIT: Okay.. So much for that.. The cricket died already and those were my last crickets.
=(

Well.. Photos anyways.

One cup has a vitamin capsule in it that mainly concentrates on the skin.

The second cup is the calcium powder I mix into my bird's food.
I added a few drops of water to both cups to encourage the crickets to eat what was in their cup.
These crickets are the same size. They were both in different cups and fed the supplements at the same time.
They were both the same color when I put them in there.

..I probably should've photographed the whole process.
Either way..

Here are the pictures.

http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o203/joeyxheffalump/?action=view&current=Crickets001.jpg

Vitamin cricket..

http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o203/joeyxheffalump/?action=view&current=Crickets002.jpg

Calcium cricket.

KEEP IN MIND: These are INSECTS. They are as far apart from reptiles or marsupials as anything could possibly be. Don't freak out, because nobody's sugar glider is going to die because of this. Crickets are tiny. Smaller than my pinky finger. This stuff is more sensitive to them.
Posted By: BlndGrl8

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Shuttershade


I am trying to prevent animal abuse. I have not yet figured out what you guys are trying to do..
Encourage it?
I don't know..
Just do your poor defenseless pets a favor and if you're going to give them calcium, read the ingredients labels.
Please. I beg of you.


This isn't animal abuse. So many sick gliders near death have recovered tremendously when they were given BML. We all love our gliders so much and we look for signs that they are unhealthy or malnourished. My babies are given BML and they look great!
Posted By: BlndGrl8

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 05:53 PM

What animal testing did you do on the crickets? What did you give them? The lifespan and anatomy of a cricket and it's digestive system is way different than a sugar glider, so if you are going to use that as a good case... tell us what you did.
Posted By: SugarBaby22

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:11 PM

I am aware that you are 15, age does not matter. I got my first glider when I was 14 years old. Age means nothing when it comes to being mature and able to care for something.

For being 15 though, I am sure that you have not done all the EXTENSIVE research that vets and many others went through to create BML.

The ABUSE that you are talking about, is a VERY poor choice of a word.

Nobody is sitting here saying that BML is the best diet, but it is a PROVEN, RESEARCHED, and successful diet. It works.. and so far has not been harmful to Sugar Gliders.

If you want to talk about abuse, which, when you pin that word to the BML diet, you are diet bashing.. I can tell you about real abuse. Not only from my schooling and seeing abuse of all kinds first hands that my patients recieve from poor care, but from all of the gliders that I have taken out of ABUSIVE homes.
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:12 PM

I support BML. I think it's a fantastic diet. It's my second choice next to Priscilla's diet.

What I do not support are skin vitamins. Sugar gliders eat more than enough food rich in vitamins that nourish their skin.

The thing is, people are so ignorant. I read every ingredient on every package of food I give my pets. If there's anything there that I am not familiar with, they don't eat it unless my vet says so. Why on earth would you feed your pet a skin vitamin it didn't need?
Read the calcium supplements. That's all I am begging people to do..
And I will do whatever it takes to make that happen.
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:13 PM

I edited my above post to include pictures, if anyone gives a hoot..
Posted By: KarenE

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:18 PM

In order to keep this thread open for discussion, everyone please read our sticky on Diet Bashing

Moderators: This will be the only warning. Close if necessary.
Posted By: SugarBaby22

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:22 PM

Here are some pictures of gliders who came to me from homes where they were fed NON balanced diets.. Bandit, who is pictured there, only started growing hair back because of BML.. all the hair in the 2nd photos.. is back because of BML.. and his nails aren't thick and yellow anymore.. confused



Attached picture 8831-backs.jpg
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Attached picture 8838-Banndit4.jpg
Attached picture 8839-Baandit4.jpg
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:25 PM

As politely as I can, I am going to request that you not accuse me of diet bashing. I have no problem with BML. I have stated so multiple times. I recommend it. But, I will continue to stand up for what I believe in. I believe that sugar gliders should not be fed chemicals that are not right for them. And nobody can ever change that whether they want to or not.
Thanks.
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:26 PM

Sorry about that. Your post only partially loaded the first time around.

SugarBaby22, would you do me a huge favor?

Okay, thanks.
=)

I'd like you to read this board over again and look at what I've been saying ever-so carefully.. Just look. Breathe deeply.
Pay special attention to the parts where I said I had nothing against BML.

And while you're doing that, I'm going to lay down. I had surgery the other day, so forgive me for my slowness. I haven't had sufficient rest.

Have fun.
Posted By: SugarBaby22

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:32 PM

They have a lot to do with your discussion.. those are gliders who were fed no vitamins.

This glider, Bandit.. came to me almost bald.. and on the BML diet, with the vitamins that you call abuse.. this is how he slowly progressed:



Attached picture 8840-Banndit.jpg
Attached picture 8841-BanditBody.jpg
Attached picture 8842-BanditFace.jpg
Attached picture 8843-Bandit5.27.06002COPY.jpg
Attached picture 8844-Bandit10.20.06001resized.jpg
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Attached picture 8846-Bandit10.20.06004resized.jpg
Attached picture 8847-Bandit10.20.06resized.jpg
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:34 PM

If you care about your pets enough to read the ingredients labels on the calcium supplements, you'll find that a glider being fed a suitable calcium supplement will have been fed one with none of the skin production compounds.

Now.. If you'll excuse me, I really need to lay down.
=|
Posted By: BlndGrl8

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:35 PM

If you do decide to feed your gliders the BML diet, you can NOT take out the rep-cal OR herptivite out of the ingredient list just because you do not think that Gliders should be fed those "chemicals" If you are that against those vitamins, then you should probably not go with that diet, because that is strictly the vitamins the BML calls for. you say you recommend the BML, but you are against those vitamins. It's either all or nothing with a diet, you can't add or take out things to make it what you want, that could be very harmful for the gliders. You say you read all the ingredients that you give your pets and if there is something you don't understand, you don't give it to them. Do you read every ingredient that you eat? There are probably many ingredients that none of us understand and I guarantee we all eat them. Sugar gliders do not get all of their nutrients from everything they eat, that's why we give them vitamins. Just like people, we don't get near the amount of vitamins and type of vitamins from our diets, that's why I personally take so many vitamins that I can't get from diet alone.
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:43 PM

Urgghh..


Take note that there are INGREDIENT LABELS on every ingestible edible in this country (unless it's something obvious like a box of blueberries) including calcium supplements.
If your calcium supplement says something like.. "Pure calcium carbonate" or "Ground seashells", OBVIOUSLY it is not going to be harmful.

If there is a word on your pet's food that you cannot pronounce.. It's probably best to CONSULT YOUR VET before feeding it.

If you don't want to consult your vet, don't feed it until you can. Wow. They ought to make an easy button for that one, eh?

This is my second time (atleast) attempting to explain this.

Goodnight.
Posted By: Usha77

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:46 PM

Wow, that was kind of rude.
Posted By: SugarBaby22

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:50 PM


What you are saying, and showing.. is making no sense at all.

You're ranting and raving about something that gliders should not be given, saying it is abuse to them.

You're showing us crickets in a cup, who would not be affected in the same way as a glider anyway..

Then you said calcium was not your issue.. but you're not agreeing with the type of calcium.

You're saying that you have no issues with BML, but the vitamins in it..

Could this be anymore confusing than you've made it?

I'm not understanding what you are wanting everybody to do that thinks about feeding, or feeds.. BML.
Posted By: Shuttershade

Re: BML Questions - 05/21/07 06:51 PM

I apologize.. But I just can't take it.
It kind of hurts my feelings when I've said something three times and people still accuse me of ignoring major aspects of the conversation when they themselves have been ignoring major aspects of the conversation.
It's very frustrating.

And nevermind my going to sleep.
I can see that it isn't going to happen.

So how's the weather? It's just fine and dandy here.
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