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Re: Sterile lines [Re: Dancing] #930490
04/14/10 12:41 PM
04/14/10 12:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

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Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Ok, so reading all this and talking to a couple in pm's... most know how *I* feel about it all but I do have a question...

Everyone says the mosaic line was due to inbreeding. It is what we have always ASSUMED...but...where is the documentation that it was brought out by inbreeding? The sterility I mean...I have never seen a written case on it yet, just us speculating that it HAD to have come from that...but is that really the case?

Talking to someone about it on the phone this morning and we both had the same question at the same time... what about sterility in humans? Both male and female, it doesnt happen often, but it does indeed happen...does that mean the child is from an inbred family?

Look at Sesamie and Shybaby, were they not a brother/sister pair (or mother/son or something like that?) They had several babies, which none were sterile. If it were from inbreeding wouldnt it have affected their offspring as well?

What about Mickey and Minnie, werent they related (brother/sister) and they produced many babies, none with any health issues that I am aware of.

I am NOT saying it is *ok* to purposely breed a line that is known to pass on the sterility at all...but I am asking people to lets take this one step further and find out for sure if it WAS due to inbreeding in the first place or did it just happen to one particular glider and that glider passed it on and so forth?

Quote:
But the irresponsible breeders that sell or breed gliders with known medical problems without regard to the consequences or even potential consequences are taking us backwards instead of forward. How do we stop that from happening?


There are some breeders out there that had some SERIOUS health issues going on that we still have yet to hear from on what the bottom line cause was and how it was treated...and they STILL to this day sell very expensive gliders, some were at one time even sold with existing conditions...

How do we stop it? EDUCATION...

we can never stop those who choose to do what they choose to do, however, if we educate the public on the FACTS and have them ask for the correct things, health certificates, CORRECT lineage (at least 3 gens back), letters of references, seeing pics of both parents/babies and their cages and learn what they feed their gliders, how often they take their gliders into the vet for check ups, etc, people will be more armed to make their own educated choices.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Sterile lines [Re: Srlb] #930502
04/14/10 01:07 PM
04/14/10 01:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
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Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
I've seen the documentation on the inbreeding. I'll see if I can find it again.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Sterile lines [Re: ValkyrieMome] #930506
04/14/10 01:15 PM
04/14/10 01:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
Alden. You are so right. It must be listed. No reason not to list it. There have been a few over the years buy a male mo for breeding and then find he never breeds. In some cases you can look at the lineage and see that the mo's in that family come from female to female to female to female. That should be a BIG red flag for anyone buying or selling. If you don't know if it is a sterile line and the breeder doesn't know, do your research. Look at siblings. Did any of the above females have mosaic male brothers, did they breed? The first thing to do as a buyer is ask. If you are told no and you only see female after female mo in that line, look around. You still can't get any answers, don't buy that joey for breeding.

But as a buyer, if we know it is a sterile line, or has been a sterile line in the generations close to it, it is our obligation to tell the potential buyer. I think there have been a few cases of... opps, I forgot to mention it (ya right). But there have also been a few... I really didn't know until you just told me your joey didn't breed.

As for offspring. It is up to each individual breeder to be responsible. Me personally, let the first wfb male from Astrid's line breed in what I knew with 100% certainty was a pet home. At birth he didn't look sterile to me and I wanted to see if it was possible that that line has stopped producing sterile males. So I allowed him to be bred in a controlled situation. I was right, he was not sterile and produced 2 babies and then was snipped. One of these babies was a male, he was snipped, the other was a female and she lives in a female to female home and I am 100% certain that she will remain in that situation. The second one I allowed to breed was a mosaic male. I wanted to see if the sterility would be in the mo/that was not in the wfb, but he didn't look sterile. He wasn't. He also produced 1 female who now and forever will live with her mom and now neutered dad. The remaining male wfb's Astrid has had, have all been neutered, and my vet assured me they were intact and full. There was one female joey born to Astrid, she lives in a home that will always remain pet only. Astrid has had no other mosaics. If she does... I will probably breed it. I don't know.

The fear for me is NOT what possible genetic defects they may have, I personally don't believe they have any. I believe it is a sex link genetic trait that can and in many cases, has been bred out. My fear is breeders allowing the offspring leave their homes and become breeders for other colors. A female gray if the sterility is still in her (from Astrid) could start a line of sterile grays, same with wfb’s, and same with lues (Astrid is also a 100% leu het). We already have a questionable sterile leu line, I don't need to add to that, so she is with a wfb/wt het.

I don't have a problem with people not liking her breeding. That is their right. I have a problem with hypocritical statements like... they might have other genetic problems because... 5-6 generations back they were inbred and they assume that it was the inbreeding that did it (when we actually do not know that, sterility in humans , when those same people promote the superior breeding programs of gliders with no lineage (some 'pure hets').

Sterile lineage might not be the best from generations back, but at least they have lineage to look at.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: Sterile lines [Re: queenduck] #930559
04/14/10 02:50 PM
04/14/10 02:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
Oh my, more from me, sorry but I find this subject fasinating.

So, was there inbreeding in the mosaic line? I would bet money there was and I am sure I have seen the first lineage in the past. Was that the cause? You assume it was, but you don't know. What about the other inbreeding, brother/sister pairs we know of (and then they were breed cousin to cousin and some on all 4 lines), and those gliders we know have no lineage and have a great chance of being related, yet no sterility. Why is that?

To me, and this is only my guess, but I don't think it was due to inbreeding. That is just my opinion and not one shared with most, but it's mine and I am keeping it until proven otherwise.

I believe the sterility we see the mosaic line works a lot like hemophilia or inherited nystagmus in humans. I believe it is a simple X-linked recessive genetic disease. These are not caused by in-breeding, they are usually passed through the family and in rare incidents can be caused by a sporadic genetic defect, also not related to inbreeding. Most x-linked recessive genetic traits are not associated with a mired of other genetic problems, they are limited to their one characteristic trait.

So I think that blaming 'inbreeding' is just an assumption. I don't believe in inbreeding, but I don't think it should be blamed with every problem we have out here.

Let's take nystagmus (simply means an uncontrolled movement of the eyes, usually from side to side, but sometimes the eyes swing up and down or even in a circular movement) as an example.


It can be caused by trauma/brain injury, drug abuse or it can be inherited.

In my family nystagmus is a proven X-linked recessive genetic disease. The females most often are carriers, and then males often have the condition IF their mothers are carriers. If the female is not a carrier, then nystagmus will stop in that line.

My grandfather came from Germany as a small child, he had many siblings and none of them or their children had nystagmus.

My grandmother grew up here in America, she also had several siblings and none of their children had nystagmus.

My father was born with nystagmus. Doctors at that time reported it was from a complication with delivery. My aunt was born/no nystagmus, my uncle was born/no nystagmus, and then my youngest uncle was born/he also had nystagmus. So then they did genetic testing and found that it was/is an X-linked recessive genetic disease. Were my grandfather and grandmother inbreeding? Ummm, not. It could have started as a sporadic genetic defect or it could have been something that was missed for several generations due to the high number of girls on my grandmother's side. My grandmother's family had very few boys in it, and not all boys get it. It could have been passed down for generations and no one knew it. Until my father and uncle were born.

So my dad has it, my uncle has it. I carry the gene. I pass the gene to my daughters and some of my son's will get nystagmus. My son’s children will not have nystagmus, but they may carry the gene and then their children may have it. My sister has also had a son with nystagmus. When my daughters have boys, they may have it. In my family girls NEVER get it, we just pass the hidden gene on. Only a % of my boys will have it. I have two sons, 1 has it, one does not. But both boys can pass the gene on to their children BUT their children will not have it, their grandchildren may.

But... if one of my daughters does not carry the gene, it ends in her line. If they don't carry it their children and grandchildren will never have it. If they do have it then nystagmus will continue to pop up (boys only) in generations to come.

My theory is that sterility in mosaics is an x-linked recessive genetic disease. The reason none of Astrid's males have been sterile is because Astrid did not inherit that gene, she doesn't have it to pass on, and now they don't have it to pass on either. But if I ever sold a glider from her for breeding, I would warn the breeder.

Because, I am not a geneticist, she hasn't had genetic testing done (like my family has) and it is just a theory of mine smile


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: Sterile lines [Re: queenduck] #930573
04/14/10 03:15 PM
04/14/10 03:15 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
hmmmmm that's fascinating!


I think you may be on to something... I know that there have been a handful of mosaic males that come from sterile lines that have NOT been sterile (yours included)...

I honestly believe that sterility CAN be bred out of a line, and a non-sterile male means that the sterility ends with him.


This is how people are trying to breed out undesirable recessive traits in dogs, so why not with gliders?


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Sterile lines [Re: queenduck] #930577
04/14/10 03:20 PM
04/14/10 03:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
I don't believe in inbreeding, but I don't think it should be blamed with every problem we have out here.


I so agree with you on that. I also think your theory of it being sex linked genetic hereditary issue is probably right as well.

Do we know if any male mosaics born from "sterile lines" that were not sterile, produced any sterile offspring?


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Sterile lines [Re: oakley] #930582
04/14/10 03:32 PM
04/14/10 03:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian
Glide_Bye_Lily  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
There's also random genetic mutations.

My cousin was diagnosed with Muscular Dystrophy which is generally a recessive trait (don't know the exact details). Both of his parents were tested for the disease-to see if they carry it, and they both came up negative.

His doctors concluded that it was just a random genetic mutation. Isn't there a possibility that could happen with gliders?


Allie
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #930583
04/14/10 03:33 PM
04/14/10 03:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
That is what Alicia was getting at. Perhaps the sterility issue was first a random sequencing of genes that became a sex linked heretary defect.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Dancing] #930585
04/14/10 03:41 PM
04/14/10 03:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian
Glide_Bye_Lily  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
hmm....this is all very interesting!

Does anyone know WHICH glider the sterility originated from?


Allie
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #930612
04/14/10 04:19 PM
04/14/10 04:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
Look up Kit on PP website. KIT

On one side of her lineage you will see Tilly-RT mosaic and Champ. Tilly does not have any lineage above her. Why? I don't know. People have said she was inbred, maybe she was. I really don't know. You'd have to ask. P. Price who her parents are or where she came from. Follow that line down and you will see female mo after female mo. These all breed. The boys are sterile in this line. It was not known immediately, it isn't always obvious they are going to be sterile, esp. as joeys.

My hunch is if we had lineage on Tilly, we could look up her line and see female mo after female mo that are making sterile boys. That it wasn't a combination of Tilly and Champ, it just is that we can't see where Tilly came from, is it in her past?

On the other side of Kit's line you will see the Mother White/Snow white line. This line of mosaics is NOT sterile.

The problem is at first people didn't know that Tilly line had sterility in it, they took offspring from the Tilly line and mixed it into the Mother White line, so later on you may see some sterility in a mixed line. But it isn't Mother White's line that did it, it was some normal/wfb/or mo from the Tilly line that contaminated it.

So... always look at mosaic lines. If you don't know what you are looking for... ask. If you only see female to female mos with no mo males making offspring, get worried.

As for sterile boys that have produced do they have ever have sterile boys later? I don't know. I have heard whispers that they do. But in the lines I have looked at (Kris Nelson has one) once the males start producing their line continues to produce. But we can't be sure, that is why they have to be listed as having come from a sterile line but have a non-sterile proven mosaic dad. Something like that.

I was going to keep my mosaic boy from Astrid, but the timing wasn't right. He move out on me, produced a baby/wfb girl, and got snipped and his little girl will always live with him.

I would love a male mosaic from Astrid to breed. And then let a mosaic boy breed from him. But that may never happen. I don't need to breed a girl mosaic from Astrid, I already know she will be able to produce joeys.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: Sterile lines [Re: queenduck] #930639
04/14/10 05:20 PM
04/14/10 05:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Ok, so, going on the assumption that it is a sex linked heretary issue, wouldn't it be prudent for the breeders of these lines be extra careful and either not breed their offspring or breed them very carefully and make sure the joeys are either carefully bred or put in non breeding situations until there have been several generations of non sterile gliders from the sterile line?

If this is like you are thinking Alicia, then it IS possible to cull (through selective and careful breeding) out the defect. But this would take dedication on the part of the breeders to make sure that the non mosaic offspring are put into non breeding situations and the mosaic offspring are carefully bred until there is atleast 90% or better certainty that the "defect" has been bred out.

(wow, that made even me dizzy, sorry)


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Dancing] #930645
04/14/10 05:45 PM
04/14/10 05:45 PM

J
JamieInWA
Unregistered
JamieInWA
Unregistered
J



This question is just for educational purposes:

So if Astrid has had two producing males...and their babies have never been allowed to breed...how do you know it's not skipping a generation and you aren't still passing it on? Isn't it possible that some of her males could be sterile and some not?

Who owns Tilly? Why can't anyone find out who the parents are to better track this?

Re: Sterile lines [Re: ] #930650
04/14/10 05:59 PM
04/14/10 05:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS

Quote:
Who owns Tilly? Why can't anyone find out who the parents are to better track this?


One problem is it has only been in the past 5 years that people really have been keeping track of lineages. Some longer, yes, but mostly only in the last 5 years. Because of this, some records are just not available. Part of the reason was the USDA laws used to be that you could not sell ANY gliders without being licensed. That changed to requiring license only if you have more than 3 breeding females. When the law changed, MANY more small hobby breeders started popping up. It became harder for the original breeders to track where their joeys and grandjoeys and such were ending up and being bred with what from where.

Also, some of the gliders were originally wild caught so there isn't any information on them either.

And then some of them were bred by people that just didn't CARE, only wanted the money they could make off the gliders.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Sterile lines [Re: Dancing] #930654
04/14/10 06:02 PM
04/14/10 06:02 PM

J
JamieInWA
Unregistered
JamieInWA
Unregistered
J



Originally Posted By: Dancing


Quote:
Who owns Tilly? Why can't anyone find out who the parents are to better track this?


One problem is it has only been in the past 5 years that people really have been keeping track of lineages. Some longer, yes, but mostly only in the last 5 years. Because of this, some records are just not available.

Also, some of the gliders were originally wild caught so there isn't any information on them either.

And then some of them were bred by people that just didn't CARE, only wanted the money they could make off the gliders.


True, but if Tilly is still alive and a breeder owns her...they should at least know where they got her from and possibly who her parents were. Do we know who owns her now?

Re: Sterile lines [Re: ] #930670
04/14/10 06:48 PM
04/14/10 06:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
Quote:
So if Astrid has had two producing males...and their babies have never been allowed to breed...how do you know it's not skipping a generation and you aren't still passing it on? Isn't it possible that some of her males could be sterile and some not?


Astrid's two producing males (one wfb and one mo, cuz I was checking to see if it would only hit one and not the other) both produced babies.

The first one, a wfb, was given to Mary. I asked Mary not to neuter him right away if she was going to neuter him because he was the first and I wanted to see if he would at least get a bald spot. And if she didn't neuter him then she must keep the joey/s and not allow them to breed. She wanted to see if he would produce her one joey to forever keep as her own, I said yes, you can do that. He did, he produced a little girl. Mary scheduled him to get neutered but he got busy and planted a little boy/a wfb/wt. Mary didn't want anymore joeys, so she neutered dad, and later neutered the little boy, and has the little girl with another little girl/never to breed. So that line has ended. All it did was prove he was not sterile. His little boy also did not appear to be sterile before he got snipped.

Astrid other boy that I allowed to breed was wanted by many, a very pretty and unique mosaic. I had planned on keeping him because I wanted to breed him and see if it carried on. Due to other issues at home, I did not have the space for him and sold him as a pet only-don't get me neutered until I have one joey price smile His owner really wanted him but didn't really want to be a breeder or have a ton of joeys. So she promised me she would see if he could breed and then keep the joeys with him/mom as a family. She only allowed him to breed once and had one little wfb girl and they live together now. He as been neutered.

All of the other males have been neutered. I don't want a ton of joeys to test. I want Astrid to have one more mosaic male. She has other thoughts smile


So there is no way, at this point, to see if it is skipping generations. Skipping generations and sterility is not the typical pattern. Some think it 'might' happen. And I guess they are right... anything 'might' happen.

My plan is to only breed out Astrid's line if she gives me another mosaic.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: Sterile lines [Re: queenduck] #934586
04/23/10 02:10 PM
04/23/10 02:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 243
Illinois
tlc_in_chitown Offline
Glider Explorer
tlc_in_chitown  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 243
Illinois
I tried posting on this once before, but my post got lost in computerland.

It is my understanding that a "woman" had some of these first mosaic gliders, but didn't keep complete lineage-records (not many did back then). It has been said that she didnt understand how this gene originally worked, thinking that two mosaics needed to be paired together to reproduce this color. When this woman sold off her breeding gliders, they were divided between a few of the larger breeders. Lineage wasnt listed because they could not be sure. The only person that knows how these were bred was the orig breeder and maybe those that bought her gliders. Was this from inbreeding (speculation) or a random genetic problem?

We also have had some problems (health issues/early deaths) in a part of our leucistic line in the past, but we did not scrap the entire leu breeding program. Were these problems passed from mother to son in a random problem with genetics, or do we believe these gliders were inbred too? I tend to belive the first and think that just like humans....sometimes things happen.

A long time ago, breeders paired these mosaic gliders with WFB's, Plats, Leus, and hets....it wasn't a newbie doing this as someone stated earlier. I don't think they knew of the sterility at first. When it did show up, it was only affecting the males..thus all the female mos in lineages. Once sterilty did show, many tried to isolate or breed this out and males began producing again. I will be the last one to come and criticize any of them.

I also agree with Alicia~Queen Duck that this sterility is x-linked. The short and sweet being carried-passed by the females and affecting the males, with the females never being sterile. I do think it can be bred out and do think most did so responsibly. Many males started producing again around 5th-6th gen out or so (give or take). I also believe that if a male is not sterile and does produce, his joeys will not be sterile either, since this is passed by the females.

I own three mosaic gliders. Two are from NON-sterile lines and one is from a sterile line 8th gen out. Both he (male mo had 2 joeys) and his twin wf brother (had 2 joeys) proved producing Jan of this year. I never had any doubt that they would, as they were from a producing mosaic father and I believe the females pass this. I had the wf brother (still here with me) neutered and the two male wfb joeys were neutered by my vet before going to a pet only home with the st grey f joey (trio). The female mosaic lives with a friend of mine now. We all know she could produce, but would she carry or pass sterility? I don't think she would, because her mosaic father wasn't sterile and her mother didnt have any sterility in her line at all. This same mosaic male now has a mosaic male son/joey 9th gen out. I was hoping-waiting for him and I am going to keep him. One day I will prove him too, making three gens of male mosaic in a row producing, with his joeys being 10th gen out. The skip a gen theory was disproved here, at least with my males side of the line. I will say that I would not breed them at all if sterility once again popped up, but I don't think that will be the case. I do think we need to be responsible here and it should ALWAYS be listed as sterility in the line....for whatever reason that it happened and especially if they arent neutered or could be used for breeding! I dont care if it is 20 gens out. Someone did this??

Linebreeding (or inbreeding if you prefer) has been used in most every captive animal species across the board. A healthy breed (dogs, cats, white tigers, or whatever) can handle this multiple times (if done correctly~by qualified people) before showing any problems. I would not have my german shepherd today without it. I am not saying that I would ever do this or that other people should run out and inbreed their gliders (Warning-DO NOT try this at home, lol), but rather that people learn or understand a little more and then make an educated/informed opinion. We are often going to have differing opinions and this is mine. Peace!

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