I noticed that too Jenn, but thought I miss read it... You are correct, a WFB was recently produced by 2 hets. The genetics of WFB don't really follow what one might consider a standard genetic patern of dominance/recession...

To be quite honest none of the glider colour phenotypes follow the standard pattern of dominance/recession (dealing with glider colour genetics is slightly more complex than dealing with rather simplex pea colour genetics, for instance), and I'd bet my Glider Addict title that we may find it hard to determine that phenotypes like wfb and leucistic completely follow any single basic principle like codominance, multiple alleles, etc.

I think the one thing that we can determine for sure is that the standard grey phenotype is "dominant in nature" and any other colour pahse is "recessive in nature", and I fear that we may be going about the glider colour genetics incorrectly if we treat the glider colour genes as if their colour is governed by a single (or even perhaps a double)allele pairing.

For instance, it was determined in the past that glider head colour and body colour function genetically independent of eachother and thus are governed by DNA at atleast two separate gene loci. This may explain some of the inconsistencies in previous breedings when mixing gliders with various-coloured heads and bodies.

Also, we may have to be careful with comparing the nature of certain phenotypes (like leucistic, albino, etc) with those expressed in other species like reptiles. Though the phenotypes may be the same in both a leucistic Burmese python and a leucistic sugar glider, it doesn't necessarily mean the nature of the leucistic genes in both animals are the same (i.e. mating to leucistic pythons may bring about a different percentage of homozygous leucistic and heterozygous leucistic babies than when mating two leucistic gliders). In parakeets, the albino trait is sex-linked and in several rodent species it isn't. The nature of the genes vary cross-species, so this must be taken into consideration, not to mention the rarer (i.e. more recessive) phenotypes tend to be very complex to begin with (e.g. albinism is such a generic term for a wide array of genotypic and phenotypic expressions in animals).

This complexity regarding the glider colour genetics is evident in this recent conclusion made by Sheila that the leucistic genes and the wfb genes are closely related (GOOD GOING, SHEILA! WOOOHOOOOOOOOO!!!), while there are still some inconsistencies when looking at other breeding records thus making it difficult to place the leucistic and wfb genes into a simple genetic category/template. There is complexity at work in the DNA and I fear that we can certainly attempt to decode that complexity however we may be looking at something as complex as decrypting ancient Hebrew on some dead sea scrolls. I'm afraid it may take years of schooling and study to get the knack of something like that.

Just a side note to think about... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Mickey, I did not think they are closely related, someone else thought that. What I thought is that a Mozaic, Platinum, Ringtail is a co-dominate - originally steming from the Leucistic gene. The White Face blonde is a co-dominate too, but not steming from the Leucistic. Putting the co-dominate wfb with a platinum would increase the chances of getting either color. The problem I am having with the two WFB hets that bred together was this. If the white face is co-dominate it would be impossible for that to occur. Now in that particular case the grandparents and greatgrandparents were all blonde. I do know that when you breed wfb to wfb over and over you breed out the normal color. What I don't understand is how two co-dominate gliders can produce hets that do anything. It doesn't make sence. That tells me that possible the WFB is a co-dominate color with a recessive gene trait. That is the only way this could be.

Jennifer that post was made in the context that there was only one wfb gene present. I can't remember who stated tha (too lazy to find it), but if Larissa were just a het, it would take more than one to get a wfb.

I don't think Larissa is a het, I believe you all are on the right track and she is a white face, leucistic <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Congratulations!!

I was just wondering when Judy made that comment about it being impossible to produce a white face from two hets, I just had to wonder if I missed something...

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What I thought is that a Mozaic, Platinum, Ringtail is a co-dominate - originally steming from the Leucistic gene.

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It is an interesting theory, and I don't know much at all when it comes to working with Platinum, Ring Tail or Mosaic. Although just like the white face glider that has been produced with 2 gliders that do not display white face, You have produced a platinum from two gliders that did not display platinum. So it seems to me that there is a bit more going into play there too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't think Haley is a true Platinum like Shadow was. I believe she is a WFB with a Leucistic gene exhibiting both colors which makes more white WFB. I believe she is co-dominate, but will not be sure. She could also be a co-dominate with the recessive gene if she produces white babies.

The "normal colored" offspring of White Face Blondes are not Hets. They are just that... normal colored and only carry the Dominant gene for gray/brown.

***The so called "White Face Blonde" is a Het. As only the Het of a co-dominant gene is the carrier of this gene. Otherwords... the glider "must" exhibit the coloration for that variation. This seems to hold true for the gliders of color that Priscilla is breeding as to the mosaics and calicos along with another breeder's breeding program of a leucistic and platinumn which produce Leucistic Hets, Calicos and Ringtails.

And food for thought: By breeding with Co-Dominate genes... this will eventually eleminate the guess work of wither or not one has a het due to the normal color. By selection of Co-Dominant genes of a variation... one can now tell the Hets as they will express color. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> And a great example of this... is the color variation that we know as the White Face Blonde. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

ok, you guys are seriously confusing me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
codominant is the word, and I'm getting lost in the way that it is being used. It think that the word co-dominate may be being used to mean also dominant As in, wf blonde is a gene that seems to be dominant in nature as is the wild type standard color gene. Am I understanding this right?

Both can be dominant genes and mingle and you still can see one or the other being expressed in the phenotype. There is no codominance here as far as I can tell. If there were codominance, you'd see a glider with partial stripes or something in between wf and standard coloration.

Here is a link that details the definitions and principles of codominance and incomplete dominance, etc.
codominance, etc...

An example of what I think may be incomplete dominance is the mosaic or patched gliders that you see out there.
i.e. Priscilla's Snow White and her offspring.
Snow White appears to carry some strangely dominant version of a white producing gene. Apparently the ones that carry the color can reproduce the color without having to be paired to another that carries similar genes, hence it can't be purely recessive. In her offspring you will see gliders that express what seems to be incomplete dominance. Some have white patched feet and spots of white randomly, some are smoke colored oddities, etc, etc...

The resulting glider born to Larissa is a wf glider/het for leucistic produced by a wf/leucistic glider.

I'd imagine that Haley, given her very even and ever so beautiful coloring, is a result of codominance of the whiteface(perhaps standard genes as well) and leucistic genes(she doesn't have sidebars am I right Sheila?) Taking this wf/leucistic het(Sunshine) and breeding it with Haley's offspring should any happen to be wf or even platinum might yield something interesting. And then, what you should do Sheila is promptly allow Ernest to purchase the resulting beauties because that would make him very very happy.....lol....

Now, I am so far lost that I'm never coming back, lol.

See, now...

HAHAH I told you it's soooooooooo complex...

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What I don't understand is how two co-dominate gliders can produce hets that do anything. It doesn't make sence. That tells me that possible the WFB is a co-dominate color with a recessive gene trait. That is the only way this could be.

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See, these are the inconsistencies I was referring to. I don't believe we'll be able to readily apply any basic genetics rule to this circumstance. Yes, the above can indicate that the WFB is perhaps a co-dominant color with a recessive gene trait, sure, OR it tells you that there's more into play as petsugargliders has said (i.e. perhaps multiple alleles, multiple allele pairings involved, multiple genotypes for leucistic/wfb/cinnie, all of the above, some of the above, some of the above and incomplete dominance, etc). There are literally just so many possibilities and I cannot stress this enough. I won't even admit to being able to aptly delve into such genetics.

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Mickey, I did not think they are closely related, someone else thought that.

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Oh ok... Well, though you haven't said that the wfb and leucistic gene are closely related, Sheila, your finding actually indicates that they are linked in some way (e.g. a leucistic het may display wfb traits, etc). Phenotypes are actually more generic and genotypes are more specific. I agree with whomever it was that thought that the wfb and leucistic phenotypes are closely related; infact, from what I've observed in past discussions on glider albinos, blond and cinnimon phenotypes are closely linked to and are associated with the albino phenotype in gliders.

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An example of what I think may be incomplete dominance is the mosaic or patched gliders that you see out there.
i.e. Priscilla's Snow White and her offspring.
Snow White appears to carry some strangely dominant version of a white producing gene. Apparently the ones that carry the color can reproduce the color without having to be paired to another that carries similar genes, hence it can't be purely recessive. In her offspring you will see gliders that express what seems to be incomplete dominance. Some have white patched feet and spots of white randomly, some are smoke colored oddities, etc, etc...

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I agree with this statement!

Overall, genetics make my brain puke! Sheila congrats on everything and on the newborn!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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I don't think Haley is a true Platinum like Shadow was. I believe she is a WFB with a Leucistic gene exhibiting both colors which makes more white WFB. I believe she is co-dominate, but will not be sure. She could also be a co-dominate with the recessive gene if she produces white babies.

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Lol, I think the exact opposite. I think of Haley as the only true Platinum, and all other platinums seem to carry the "pinto" or "mosaic" gene...

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Oh ok... Well, though you haven't said that the wfb and leucistic gene are closely related, Sheila, your finding actually indicates that they are linked in some way (e.g. a leucistic het may display wfb traits, etc). Phenotypes are actually more generic and genotypes are more specific. I agree with whomever it was that thought that the wfb and leucistic phenotypes are closely related; infact, from what I've observed in past discussions on glider albinos (blond and cinnimon phenotypes are closely linked to and are associated with the albino phenotype in gliders).

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Mikey, I see no relation between WF and Leucistic beyond the fact that they can be expressed at the same time. Now, I do think that the gene that causes the blonde coloration does work with the leucistic gene and that's why Haley popped out and now this little girl with her delute golden coloring...

I would agree with Ernest that the WFB Platinum Haley is a co-dominate. Leyna, remember someone just made up the word Platinum to fit the color. I don't think Platinum is a documented color. Haley has two joeys in pouch due out the 26th. One looks to be either like her or a Leucistic which if it was Leucistic she would carry 100% of the gene.
I
As far as Pricillas'Snowwhite - Snowhite is a co-dominate female. There is a possibility that she does carry a 100% Leucistic gene because her mother was suppose to be a Leucistic. The father was a calico male which would explain the color that she is. He would be a co-dominate without the 100% Leucistic gene. Snowwhite has bred with her man and if the babies over a period of time are white Leucistic, then she carries 100% of the gene. All of her joeys would be a 50% chance of being Leuc. of the joeys born before this breeding. If Snowhite only has Mozaics and normals, then she is Co-dominate only with a Leu gene, but not one strong enough to produce the pure Leucistic.

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I think of Haley as the only true Platinum, and all other platinums seem to carry the "pinto" or "mosaic" gene...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> See, that's what I'm thinking too. Her coloring is so even and consistent. Most of the other "platinums" that I've seen are sort of speckled and inconsistent leading me to believe that they are a result of incomplete dominance of some sort rather than codominance(of the wf and leucistic genes), which I theorize might be responsible for Haley's coloring.

Mickey, a wfb when paired with anything can produce about 1/2 WFB. Haley's father was a wFB. The Leucistic coloring on her makes her Co-dominate. I know when an albino is produced, its original color is masked and we don't know what the original color really is. This could be the same with the Leucistic too which would explain Larissa not exhibiting the color of the WFB.
Ernest, A co-dominate glider does not need another one of its type to produce the color. However, there are co-dominate colored gliders that can be recessive. If you bred them over and over to normals, you would never get color, but only get color if you bred to another recessive. The only way to know whether they carry the recessive gene or the co-dominate gene is to breed back to the parent. If you produced color that way, you would know that your mozaic or ringtail would carry the recessive gene instead. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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Ernest, A co-dominate glider does not need another one of its type to produce the color.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> This statement I agree with <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> OK, I mixed up my definitions of incomplete dominance and codominance The webpage I read had them mixed up and got me on the wrong path, lol. The only glider that I theorize(so far) may be the result of incomplete dominance is a platinum, specifically your platinum Haley. She seems to be an even blending of traits All other white variations, i.e. mosaic, smoke white, etc, I theorize are results of codominance of the wild type standard genes and a special white gene. This white gene does not seem to follow the common inheritence/expression patterns of the recessive leucistic gene. They seem to follow a more dominant pattern of inheritence as is evidenced by the white variations producing babies of color when bred to normals. Specifically I am referring to Snow White, which Priscilla told me produced a white variation when bred to a normal. This led Priscilla to term her genes "super leucistic" in that white was passed on without pairing with another white gene carrier. So with this info it can be determined that this must be a result of codominance and that you need only have one glider of white variation to reproduce the color trait.

I'm not sure anyone can say for sure what patterns a glider that is the result of incomplete dominance will follow as to my knowledge there aren't many breedings to get that sort of info from.

Here is a punnett square that I made.
This is assuming that the glider Haley is a result of incomplete dominance of the wf and leucistic genes(which I guess she is since she doesn't have sidebars under her ears and thus is expressing the wf trait). The wf being dominant and the leucistic which is known to be recessive. S=standard l=leucistic B=wf blonde
Ack! Nevermind the punnett square it wouldn't come out right in the post so draw it yourself if you want to see.

This punnett square was drawn with Haley(Bl)bred to a standard colored leucistic het(Sl) and this is also assuming that there are only two genes controlling the situation which is highly unlikely. There is a 25% chance that you will get a glider that will carry both the wf and leu genes, but will it express incomplete dominance? Apparently Larissa is both a wf and a leucistic but she does not show any incomplete dominance, the traits did not blend, and they did not in her offspring as well. So my guess is that with Haley this incomplete dominance is a special case and she has unique genes and that her offspring will probably have to be bred back to her to reproduce the trait. Anyways enough rambling, I'm confusing myself now, lol..... Time will tell I guess!

Ernest I would hate to have to breed anything back to her. Is there any other way of doing it? If she produced a white it could have the same characteristics as Larissa. White with WFB underneath the white.

The reason Priscilla called it a Super, is because someone told her that.. Super is actually a species that is bred to anything and produces the color of the Super. Priscilla's Snowhite is Co-dominate with a Possible recessive gene and only time will tell by breeding witht he Leucistic. I use to think her mother was just like her, but knowing what her father looks like, it is very likely her mother was white and father a Co-Dominate Calico. I wonder why there was not any more sisters of brothers of Snowwhite. I also wonder if they are in her breeding program and she doesn't know it. I remember Helen saying 50% of her lines are related. Where are the rest of the lines Snowwhite's lineage. I will have to ask P <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />

From my understanding of the WFB lineage a WFB has not been confirmed to be produced by a het to het breeding. Also that the WFB that have been produced have come from WFB parents. It has also been shown possible to produce a WFB joey with only one WFB parent. It has also been argued and suggested that the WFB gene(s) are co-dominant and therefore there are no hets produced. With all that said is Larissa who is a leucistic phenotype could also be a homozygote WFB. The only way to determin this would be to breed her to a WFB homozygote and not hets. The offspring produced would seem to confirm that Larissa carries the gene(s) needed to produce WFB and therefore given that no WFB has been produced from hets that larissa is a double homozygote capable of producing either leucistic or WFB.