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Re: color variations [Re: RSXTC] #11521
11/18/03 05:31 AM
11/18/03 05:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
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Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
For now, a name has not been decided on. I call them Creme. I have not asked...but my guess is Flying Fur Ranch will be keeping both babies.

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11522
11/18/03 11:34 AM
11/18/03 11:34 AM

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Yes, Flying Fur Ranch is keeping both of these beauties. They really are gorgeous!

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11523
11/19/03 12:41 AM
11/19/03 12:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
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A few weeks ago the owner of Flying Fur Ranch called me and said, "I want you to know first they are not for sale". That was before they told me what they had. Out of all the gliders they have this is the first special pair that they have had. I don't blame them, they are beauties. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11524
11/19/03 12:48 AM
11/19/03 12:48 AM

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They sure are adorable! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11525
11/19/03 11:31 AM
11/19/03 11:31 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,697
Phoenix, AZ
SugarBaby22 Offline
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Phoenix, AZ
[:"blue"] Those babies are gorgeous!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" /> [/]


Linda
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11526
11/19/03 12:03 PM
11/19/03 12:03 PM

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Lol, I don't blame them for not selling, if I were in their possition I wouldn't either <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11527
11/19/03 01:38 PM
11/19/03 01:38 PM

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They are going to maintian this color through breeding it right? I would love to know what color the parents and grand parents were.

Ushuaia

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11528
11/19/03 01:42 PM
11/19/03 01:42 PM

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With gliders of this color, there might be unforseen medical probems in the future. These gliders are extremely expensive if they went out for sale, probably rivaling an albino in price. Because of this I would recommend they get vet insurance on each one. Their value is great enough to justify $120 a year for 90% vet coverage. I would love to see pictures of the parents and grand parents.

Ushuaia

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11529
11/19/03 03:50 PM
11/19/03 03:50 PM

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[:"teal"]Although new to us, these gliders aren't all that uncommon. The stunningly handsome appearance that we all revel in awe over are often short lived in the wild populations, thus pairs producing such phenotypical expressions don't survive to perpetuate higher frequency of said expression or color. The parents were normal, as already indicated, and I would venture to guess that the grandparents were normals as well. "Luck of the draw" put two carriers of the genetic potential for this stunning phenotypic expression of partial leucism and eye color together. Knowing the information regarding previous joeys and, especially now in light of this beautiful pair, all succeeding litters by this pair, will be quite interesting from the prospective of frequency of this stunning phenotype-(i.e.-will 25%, 50%, or (??)% of ALL future joeys show this coloration, or will normal color be expressed at a higher frequency). Partial leucism and complete leucism are very common in mammals of all types, including marsupials. Many folks may have carriers of genetic potential to throw white tips, partial or complete leucistic, or albinos. If incomplete dispersal of metaphores for the dark coloration or pigment of fur is expressed, that doesn't necessarily mean there is genetic potential for the expression of physiological abnormalities. Check into the research of leucism and partial leucism, and even albinism and you'll find that just because we aren't seeing the phenotypic expression frequently, doesn't mean the possibility or probability is as rare as one may think. In the wild, they follow the "survival of the fittest" doctrine and are preyed upon more easily than those individuals expressing the necessary camouflage coloration. I'm quite certain that many potential carriers exist in our captive population of gliders, but as we can't see the genetic potential until a phenotype is expressed, it's then that we regard these carriers as "special". It's a virtual gamble, where we chance being fortunate enough to "accidentally" pair two potential carriers of the same desired expression together! The chances for seeing desired color expressions are rare due to our unavoidable ignorance of the underlying genetic materials' existence, not by an infrequency in said genetic material having the potential to exist. (OK, have I lost everyone now?) In other words, unless one can map the genetic material of potential breeder pairs to KNOW what desirable or undesirable traits are potentially present in their DNA, you simply do as is done now and "wait and see" when a desirable phenotype or color variation is expressed. Once the known carriers of desired traits are recognized, and proper breeding techniques implemented, the frequency and numbers of phenotypic color variations will increase. As I say, leucism especially, is a fairly common occurrence in mammals of all types. It's always nice to see what diversity and surprise "mother nature", AKA science, offers! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />[/]

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11530
11/19/03 06:42 PM
11/19/03 06:42 PM

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Well said Jeff!

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11531
11/19/03 09:40 PM
11/19/03 09:40 PM

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an albino by definition is a complete lack of malanin therefore even if they are bred for that trait they are still genetically albino. FYI <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11532
11/19/03 11:43 PM
11/19/03 11:43 PM

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[:"teal"]Your definition is an oxymoron-( "a complete lack of [melanin]" & "genetically albino" ). How can an individual lack all melanin, yet show a faint dorsal stripe? By definition, you have described what I previously pointed out regarding this pair as [/][:"crimson"]partial leucistics[/][:"teal"]. It seems some may have misconstrued the definition of an albino, which is easy to do. There is no such thing as a partial albino or partial albinism, although some less scientific types may use this term incorrectly. Albinism, Erythrism, Leucism, Melanism, & Xanthism are all different and to delve into a technical discussion of each would entail a very detailed, lengthy, and oft times controversial interpretation, depending on those involved and the level of biological knowledge possessed by each. It's not technically correct to say that this pair in question are considered genetically albino. Rather, they are genetically considered [/][:"crimson"]partial leucistics[/][:"teal"], as previously indicated. An albino often possesses melanin within the eyes, unless an ocular albino, thereby making the definition above of "a complete lack of melanin" technically incorrect. Many albinos have normal colored eyes while the skin lacks all melanin or pigmentation. Leucistics generally have dark colored eyes. [/][:"crimson"]Partial leucistics[/][:"teal"] possess varying degrees of melanophore dispersion in the skin or fur, hence the faint appearance of the dorsal stripe, and eye color may vary as well. If I misinterpreted your point above, could you elaborate please? Keep in mind that a number of the individuals discussing this issue are specifically trained in various undergraduate & post graduate collegiate levels of Biology, Genetics, & Zoology, while others in the discussion have only a casual layman's understanding of the subject.[/] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11533
11/20/03 01:11 AM
11/20/03 01:11 AM

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I have my own theory of what this color is and how it came about. It could be that this is not a partial leucistic but rather a cinnamon/leucistic with both being expressed however leucistic is stronger of the two and so it appears to dilute the cinnamon to a cream color. This also could be why the eyes are red. With the eyes taking the color of the cinnamons. Cinnamons could very well be masking red eyes because other recessive color variations dominate the eye color. It is just a wild guess. But this is what I was intending on breeding for, except the red eyes.

Ushuaia

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11534
11/20/03 02:52 AM
11/20/03 02:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,532
Andover, Ohio
petsugargliders Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,532
Andover, Ohio
Okay this is a little off topic, but I have a question, I have a normal gray breeding pair of gliders that I bought from a breeder in MD. Since I have had them the have had 2 twin girls. When they were born, they had black tails, as most babies are, then they turned to rings, similar to a racoon and kept them until they were about 6 weeks old. Both normal in color as they got older and lost the rings. However, When I picked up the pair, she had a boy, about 4 months old, she got from this pair that kept the rings. She emailed me last night, and he is now almost a year old and still has them. Has anyone else seen this variation, or color, or even heard of it? I have a picture of the twin girls where you can sorta see them, the one on the left still has them to an extent she is now 8 weeks.

Attached Files
167305-babies.jpg (86 downloads)
Last edited by sugargliderinfo; 11/20/03 02:53 AM.

Jennifer Chandler
Owned by sugar gliders for over 14 years
Pet Sugar Gliders
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11535
11/20/03 05:49 AM
11/20/03 05:49 AM

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Ushuaia, I kind of agree with your theories. I think that those gliders coloration is caused by a double recessive, but I'm not all to sure about the Cinnamon thing. There are a cocktail of combinations that could cause that, possibly even albinism. They are obviously not true albino, but but there is a chance that they are carriers and mild expressers of the gene (the pail coloration and burgundy eyes). There is also the possibility that they are a completely new color. Genetically speaking, it can happen. Maybe mommy and daddy glider were sitting a little too close to a microwave if you know what I mean. There is a chance that both parents have a genetic flaw (a mutation) that is causing a totally new color to be expressed. Unfortunately there's only one way to know for sure and I highly doubt that these little guys are going to be genetically mapped any time soon. I do like the double recessive idea though. A lot of people on here don't realize that if you have a glider that is het for something there is a very slight chance that there babies could display that coloring even if the other parent is normal. Also, if you breed two different hets, you can produce a double recessive which displays the colors of both genetic traits at once... I have a Punet's square attached that backs my statement.

Attached Files
167314-Punets Square.bmp (61 downloads)
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11536
11/20/03 11:57 AM
11/20/03 11:57 AM

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[:"apple"]Calling Brian...we need you to help clarify some apparent misunderstandings beginning to unfold here![/][:"teal"] Theories aside, it's a fact that the phenotype expressed by this pair is clearly not representative of true albinism. True albinism in any animal is caused by a genetic condition that disrupts the metabolism of melanin, the black or brown pigments of animals. Melanophores are cells in the skin that manufacture melanin. If no melanin is produced by an animal's body, dark coloration will not be expressed. For most mammals, including humans, albinism results in a solid white skin and hair. An exception is the eyes. Lacking pigment in the iris, an albino's eyes look pink because tiny blood vessels in the eye are visible. I believe a discussion including the factors I've yet to introduce would only serve to complicate this discussion. Such factors which require further examination by the experts in the field would certainly include the action of modifying genes, dominant spotting, piebaldism, epistasis, & lethality, to name just a few. For example, in contrast to autosomal recessive albinism, classic piebaldism, if involved in this case, is a genetic disease with autosomal dominant inheritance, which would contradict DutchessLively's theory of double recessive inheritance above. FYI...a Punnett square is used to express the realm of possible phenotypes to anticipate from a given or known genetic pairing. If one knows all of the genes involved in the overall expression of the desired or resultant phenotype, then one can certainly figure out the numeric probability or ratio of normal to albino, normal to partial leucistic, etc. Theories aside, I stand by my convictions & firmly believe it's more realistic to expect this particular phenotypic expression as that of [/][:"crimson"]partial leucistic[/][:"teal"]! I'm anxious to hear from Brian-(Wherezat) on his belief, based on his more extensive background in Genetics. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />[/]

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11537
11/20/03 12:23 PM
11/20/03 12:23 PM

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If you re-read my post you'll see that you are more or less restating what I said. And as far as the Punet's square I wasn't referring to those gliders in particular, but gliders in general and I wasn't saying that a person has to know the ancestry of the glider. I was trying to show the the possibility of genetic variations exist, including double recessives. And that despite breeding two normal gliders there is always the chance of color variations whether the parents are normal or not.

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11538
11/20/03 01:15 PM
11/20/03 01:15 PM

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Aren't those gliders platinum? And don't we already know they exist, and they originated from normal color gliders? Let's not make a big deal out of nothing here.... I have blond hair and both my parents have dark hair, that doesn't mean I'm a mutation! Genetics are a whole lot more complicated than can be dealt with on a message board, why don't we all just claim ignorance and be happy?

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11539
11/20/03 02:09 PM
11/20/03 02:09 PM

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Ignorance will not cause us to understand the genetics of inheritance. If we continue to ask questions, test theries through selective breeding, and post our results we will all get a better understanding of how gentics of sugar gliders works. These are not platinums because the have no grey in them. These have creme coloration and are as yet the ONLY two known in the world. To assure the continuation of this color will require selectivly breeding the parents and the offspring. Wherezat has a masters in genetics and should help clear this up. I would also ask wherezat to call and talk to Flying Fur Ranch and advise them on how to start establishing a clear line.

Ushuaia

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11540
11/20/03 06:00 PM
11/20/03 06:00 PM

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Maybe someone here can post the Punnett square for glider coloration then so we can get some visible facts. But until then a lot of it is speculation. That's what I was trying to say in my post, and I don't think it was understood.

I just get frusterated when people say make assumptions about glider diet or coloring without having any scientific evidence to back up what they are saying. I think the glider colorations are much more complicated than simply saying dominant and recessive. There could be dihybrid crosses or sex linked traits that mess up all these theories. We just don't know. Hence the ignorance. When we have more facts I would love to see more on this, until then.....

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11541
11/20/03 06:16 PM
11/20/03 06:16 PM

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Flying Fur Ranch already has a geneticist that they are working with. That is why she decided to keep both of them... to see if they can duplicate this awesome cream color.

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11542
11/20/03 06:26 PM
11/20/03 06:26 PM

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[:"teal"]There are a multitude of Punnett square possibilities and a hoard of factors involved. I assure you that nothing I've personally stated is "speculation", but based on proven scientific research gleaned from a wide range of experts! HTH! Ask away and I'll be more than happy to expand as much as you would like on intricate details and possible influencing factors! This thread may reach into the volumes before long! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />[/]

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11543
11/20/03 06:58 PM
11/20/03 06:58 PM

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I just wanted to say- I'm so excited! I actually 'know' the hubby to the breeder of these suggies- he's one of our coati experts- and he is so proud of those cuties! Regardless of how they came about, they are adorable!

*back to your regularly scheduled genetics program*

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11544
11/21/03 12:04 AM
11/21/03 12:04 AM

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My use of the punet's square was just to show the possibility of a double recessive. The possibilities when it comes to genetics are more or less endless I fully acknowledge that. I just wanted to people to be aware of some of the other possibilities that exist when it comes to glider coloration...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I didn't mean to cause a fuss, I just wanted people to be more aware of all that's out there. And let me state this as simply as I can for the record, Punet's squares only show genetic probability based on known inheritance and a complete lack of mutations. I was attempting to show that there are many options available in the glider genetic cocktail and that surprises shouldn't be that surprising.

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11545
11/21/03 01:18 AM
11/21/03 01:18 AM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]And let me state this as simply as I can for the record, Punet's squares only show genetic probability based on known inheritance and a complete lack of mutations.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/]

[:"teal"]Respectfully, this is simply not true! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" /> Punnett-(correct spelling <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />) squares can and do show mutations and double mutants. Here is a prime example to illustrate [:"apple"]a snow corn Punnett square[/][:"teal"]. In this example, they use “a” for amelanism and “e” for anerythrism. No need for anyone to get upset, it's very easy to get somewhat off track with a highly complex subject matter and even the most well trained scientists in the field tend to disagree on occasion. The ability to pose differing possibilities or scenarios only serves to keep scientists sharp! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />[/]

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11546
11/23/03 10:18 PM
11/23/03 10:18 PM

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True Punnett's Squares do not show mutations, they show the probability of a trait being genetically expressed. I've actually read Punnett's work and have found it to be very interesting with the green and yellow peas and the long and short stalks... There are variations of the Punnett's Square, but those are usually considered fairly controversial from my understanding because you don't know every mutation possible (thus the reason it's called a mutation) and if you can chart the probability of a mutation then it's "technically" not a true mutation, just a variation.

Oh and as far as the spelling of Punnett, my computer spell check did that. I don't tend to pay much attention to it, but since you felt the need to point it out I'll make the point of spelling it correctly.

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11547
11/23/03 10:38 PM
11/23/03 10:38 PM

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Sorry for my absence. Work does keep me away.
Its hard to call these guys one thing or another without actually seeing them. I can tell you that I have seen some of my albino's lighten as they grow and have seen them when they start getting their hair coat have a slight ever so slight stripe. BUT nothing quite this defined... how old are these little ones? Albino's when they first open their eyes have a dark purple color and eventually liten up but again nothing of this similarity. What I find unusual about these guys pictured are their points. (ear tips, feet, etc)
The ear tips in particular have color on the tips.
These pics really remind me of the perlino color in horses.
(basically an incomplete dilution of a solid color body type leaving some color at the horses points. These are typically seen from bay horses (brown with black points).
The offspring will have a cream colored body and a slight redish tinge to the points. Cremelo's on the other hand are completely creme colored and leave no area's of darker coloration.)
What has to be understood is that there will be color variations within "same" colored animals... ie dark gold palamino's and light gold palamino's etc. The more gene pairs the more variation possible by different combinations of dominants, recessives, co dominance, sex linked characteristics, allel placement, etc etc etc
This link will give you an idea about how many possible variations in horse coat color that could be expressed if given the chance.
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/research/coats.html
I do sincerely believe that if these guys do not lighten up with age and stay cream and keep the stripes and tips it proves what I have been saying all along that there has to be dilution factor not unlike that in horses present in glider genetics.

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11548
11/23/03 11:16 PM
11/23/03 11:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
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Judie  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Recent photos of the joeys ....I think the little ones are six weeks or seven weeks oop. First photo of the two on the basket is of the babies at 5 weeks oop.

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11549
11/23/03 11:45 PM
11/23/03 11:45 PM

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I must say, regardless of the disagreements, you're all highly intelligent. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> I can't even grasp some of the concepts that you're speaking of, and I consider myself a fairly intelligent individual. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11550
11/24/03 01:21 PM
11/24/03 01:21 PM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]True Punnett's Squares do not show mutations, they show the probability of a trait being genetically expressed.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/]

[:"teal"]I am not trying to be argumentative, however, when one is describing scientific terms, definitions, or facts, spelling and correctness are of paramount importance. The above statement you've made regarding Punnett squares is simply incomplete, not necessarily untrue in its entirety! With respect to mutations, Punnett squares, invented by REGINALD CRUNDALL PUNNETT (1875-1967), most certainly are used extensively in predicting the likelihood of mutation expression in the phenotype. Please look at the following:

[/][:"sienna"]Chatham College: SUPPLEMENTAL DNA EDUCATION: FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES AND ILLUSTRATIVE ACTIVITIES, Raymond W. Zanetti[/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]Basically, the Punnett Square is a useful tool for showing all possible combinations of alleles in offspring. A Punnett Square is designed to show the genotype of an organism that exhibits a dominant or recessive trait, which can be due to a genetic makeup that is either homozygous or heterozygous for the dominant allele, or homozygous for the recessive allele. By using a Punnett Square, scientists can determine the probability of an offspring to inherit a dominant or recessive trait based on the alleles each parent has for that trait. Punnett Squares can be used to track the probability of inheriting physical traits as diverse as albinism, determined by a recessive allele, to lethal diseases such as Huntington’s disease, which is determined by a dominant allele.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/]

[:"sienna"]Concord Consortium Teachers Guide:[/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]Mutation Inheritance – How Are Mutations Inherited? Description: Mutation Inheritance expands on the previous activity’s exploration of how mutations are inherited. It also gives the students more practice in using Punnett squares to determine the probability of inheriting a [/][:"crimson"]mutated[/][:"apple"] trait.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"apple"]Application of the Punnett Square involving Cystic Fibrosis[/][:"teal"]

Help this helps! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />




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