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Re: color variations [Re: ] #11491
11/15/03 02:19 PM
11/15/03 02:19 PM

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I cannot wait to see the photos!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11492
11/15/03 04:37 PM
11/15/03 04:37 PM
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Me neither!!! I cannot wait to see more pictures of Albino babies!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I bet they're beautiful babies in person!


Linda
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11493
11/15/03 05:29 PM
11/15/03 05:29 PM
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OK. Owner has sent me permission to post this one photo. I am hoping there will be a couple of others to follow in a day or so.

This is one awesome set of twins. One boy and one little girl. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" />

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Re: color variations [Re: ] #11494
11/15/03 05:30 PM
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OH MY GOODNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are BEAUTIFUL!!!! So lucky!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11495
11/15/03 05:43 PM
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OMG!!! They are so awesomely beautiful!!! I love them!!! Do normal albinoes have that streak on their bodies- I'd assume no, right? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" />

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11496
11/15/03 05:43 PM
11/15/03 05:43 PM
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I originally posted them as Albinos. However, they are very Cream in color with a very faint stripe that appears to be darker than the cream color of the overall fur color. Eye color is Burgandy.

My understanding of an Albino is lack of pigment. Otherwords no color. The faint stipe has me confused.

I am hoping Brian or possible Jeff will help us out as to what they are.

Last edited by Judie; 11/15/03 05:49 PM.
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11497
11/15/03 05:47 PM
11/15/03 05:47 PM
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[:"red"] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> They're gorgeous!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" />

They have one very lucky owner <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" /> [/]


Linda
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11498
11/15/03 09:45 PM
11/15/03 09:45 PM

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Okay, so if they aren't albinoes- which we all can agree that they aren't, right, then how did they get burgundy eyes? Isn't burgundy a dark rich red color? *scratches head*

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11499
11/15/03 11:55 PM
11/15/03 11:55 PM
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Yes, the burgandy is a deep dark red. The eye color is not visible in the photos, but the breeder says they are burgandy.

Still waiting for Brian, or Jeff to reappear and help us out here.

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11500
11/16/03 12:18 AM
11/16/03 12:18 AM
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[:"blue"] Well my Chinchilla has red/burgundy eyes and he's not Albino. He is beige, so it has to be something else.. [/]


Linda
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11501
11/16/03 12:19 AM
11/16/03 12:19 AM

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burgandy!!!! oh my goodness!!! Now THAT is something I would absolutley love to see in person .. They are beautiful gliders!! Their coats are soo pretty and fluffy!!

Re: color variations [Re: Holly1221] #11502
11/16/03 01:34 AM
11/16/03 01:34 AM

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Those gliders are beautiful!! That's so wierd that they came from normal colored parents!

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11503
11/16/03 03:25 AM
11/16/03 03:25 AM

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[:"teal"]VERY handsome looking pair! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" /> I am far too tired to tax my feeble mind too terribly much at this late hour tonight, but I will agree that they are NOT albinos, but rather, IMHO, a variant of leucistic genetic make-up. I'll defer to Brian with his expertise on the subject, however, my best guess is the presence of heterozygous genes for leucism, with varying degrees of a dilution factor playing an important part in the resulting phenotype shown-(i.e.-very light dorsal stripe). In a leucistic, the eyes contain pigment, thus not albinism. Many of the platinums, "calicos", and other variants are likely degreed variations of the leucistic genes influenced by lesser or greater influence by the white factor. Hopefully Brian can make better sense of what I'm entirely too tired to properly explain! Eye coloration is interesting, but I'm guessing the dark eyes are similar or the same as in normal gliders. Perhaps the ubiquitous "red eye" appearance, which often shows in photos of humans and animals alike, is just a perceived illusion of burgundy, when in fact the eyes are just the typical dark coloration found in other gliders. So Brian, are these considered leucistics or light platinums or ??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />[/]

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11504
11/16/03 08:56 AM
11/16/03 08:56 AM

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Argh, there's a name for that coloration and I can't think of what it's called. It's even rarer than albino. There was an alligator at the Toledo Zoo with blue eyes and I had it explained to me. The mutation is similar to albinism, but instead of totally lacking pigment they still have a little. That's what causes the stripe and the burgundy eyes. The alligator I saw had blue eyes and light green coloring around is toes, the tip of the spine on his back, and a little on the spines of his tail.
~bangs head on wall~ I should know what this is called!

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11505
11/16/03 12:26 PM
11/16/03 12:26 PM
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Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
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Not sure but these may be Albino but with a dilute gene. Now two names come to mind...one is Cremino and with some the pheomelanin becomes a paler cream..but that one I beleive is sex linked for multi generations so not sure about it. The other one is Cinnamon Ino...this one is where brown melanins are completly erased. Both are a form of partial albinism.

Jeff...can you help with this as I may be incorrect?

Last edited by Judie; 11/16/03 12:28 PM.
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11506
11/16/03 04:17 PM
11/16/03 04:17 PM

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[:"teal"]I believe the joeys pictured are what is technically referred to as [/][:"crimson"]partial leucistics[/][:"teal"]. As for describing the joeys as "albinos", it's a judgment call by many, I suppose, but it is common for many lay people not in the field to refer to initial mutation occurrences such as Leucism-(an incomplete distribution of melanin), melanism-(an excess of melanin), erythrism-(an excess of red pigment), and others as "partial albinism". For the record, by definition, there is no such thing as "partial albinism". To further confuse things however, there IS such a description for leucism. That said, I believe what the proper description to explain this particular pair of joeys, as well as many of the previously mentioned "calicos" or other "almost" white variations is [/][:"crimson"]partial leucistic[/][:"teal"]. Partial leucism is very common, as is complete leucism, in numerous species of mammals, including marsupials & birds. Eye color is interesting and encompasses a whole other intensive discussion with respect to albinos, leucistics, and other variations. With respect to eye color associated with albinism in people-(yes folks, we people are mammals too! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />), The National Organization for Albinism and Hypopigmentation-(NOAH) Copyright 1995-2002 states in the following [:"apple"]NOAH publication[/][:"teal"]:[/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]A common myth is that by definition people with albinism have red eyes. In fact there are different types of albinism, and the amount of pigment in the eyes varies. Although some individuals with albinism have reddish or violet eyes, most have blue eyes. Some have hazel or brown eyes.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/]

[:"teal"]Another notable point made in the above publication linked by NOAH is the brief explanation for autosomal recessive inheritance-(which is the likely pathway explaining the birth of this pair of glider joeys):[/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]When both parents carry the gene, and neither parent has albinism, there is a one in four chance at each pregnancy that the baby will be born with albinism. This type of inheritance is called autosomal recessive inheritance.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/]

[:"teal"]Although speaking about Koalas, the following quote from Valerie Thompson, Associate Curator of Mammals at San Diego Zoo during a live, online chat February 27, 2002, can help to illustrate the reasoning behind the occurring birth of this pair of atypical color variant joeys from phenotypically "typical" or "normal" parents:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"apple"]Our first koala born in San Diego can be tied genetically to an albino koala that was at Lone Pine Sanctuary in Brisbane, Australia. When he died we had no known carriers of the albino gene in our collection in San Diego. When we had our second albino koala born several years later, we realized the gene had been perpetuated by several normal gray-colored koalas. The trait for albinism is a recessive gene, like that for blue eyes, where both parents must pass on the albino gene to their offspring for the albino phenotype to occur. For that reason a gray koala could carry the gene, but we would not know from its outward appearance without DNA analysis.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">[/]

[:"teal"]Ms. Thompson makes a very important point to keep in mind whenever discussing genetics with gliders, or any specie, which is that of DNA analysis, genetic sequencing & mapping. The funding necessary to perform these elaborate & costly data reports makes it virtually cost prohibitive without strong financial backing.

Perhaps the most important message of the many to be learned from color abnormalities is that genetic potential for extreme variability exists in nature.

Hopefully Brian can better elucidate what I've tried to explain in my rather confusing attempts thus far! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11507
11/16/03 10:46 PM
11/16/03 10:46 PM
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Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
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I did some searching....and came up with this. Brian knows horses...so, he is the expert and not I. So, I will try to make a stab at this.

Here's two additional interesting quotes about The Genetics of the Cremello Trait in Horses.

Chap 4.13 - reproductive genetics, page 129
"Occasionally it may be possible to differentiate homozoygous and heterozygous genotypes by observation of phenotype. Another coat-color trait can provide an example of this. The palomino gene(Ccr) causes a distinctive golden hair color by dilution of the red pigment to yellow, and is highly prized by many breeders. Homozygotes(CcrCcr) for the gene exhibit a "dosage effect" in that the coat is diulted to a very pale creme(cremello) which is usually considered undesirable."

Siegal, Mordecai, ed.UC Cavis Book of Horses, 1997 CH 4, section 13, p. 129

"The C or color gene is necessary in dominant form for the expression of any coat color. A homozygous pair of recessive c genes (cc) will result in a true albino. The recessive c gene is rare and may not exist in the the gene pools of most solid colored breeds. The c(cr)gene acts to dilute the red pigment to yellow in the Het form(Cc(cr) and to creme in the Homozoygous form (c(cr)c(cr). The dominant d gene is also a dilution gene and is associated with primitive markings(dorsal and zebra stripes)."

North, Ed.Breeding for Color. 1992. Introduction.

Autosomal recessive inheritance albinism.....
Partial albinos or tyroninase-positive albinos do have some pigment. The colors of Chinchilla, beige, himalyan, burmese and cremello in mammels such as mice, gerbils, rabbits and horses and cats are all thought to be due to variations in the "c" series of genes (the tyrosinase-producing genes)and can therefor considered typical of albinism.

So, I think what we are seeing is the cremello gene at work in these babies. These then would be considered albino hets. And should produce if paired correctly 25% albinos in the future.




Last edited by Judie; 11/17/03 12:10 AM.
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11508
11/16/03 11:26 PM
11/16/03 11:26 PM

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Cremello, that's it. My aunt had a cremello horse (boy was it ugly). I totally forgot about the horse, but I remembered the aligator... oh well. All I know is that the genetic probability for the coloration is very low in most animals because a recessive gene become dominate (well more dominate) or something of the sort. More or less it's a genetic blooper.

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11509
11/16/03 11:36 PM
11/16/03 11:36 PM

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Might be ugly in a horse, but if that's the color of those babies- they are darn cute!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11510
11/16/03 11:42 PM
11/16/03 11:42 PM

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Lol, oh horses it looks like they rolled in pee... They just kind of look dirty, I don't know how else to explain it.

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11511
11/17/03 12:07 AM
11/17/03 12:07 AM
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The camello color in horses ...I beleive is commonly known as the Palimno.

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11512
11/17/03 12:17 AM
11/17/03 12:17 AM

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No, Palomino is actually a different color. Cremello is a dilute Palomino if I'm not mistaken. My aunt shows Palominos and I know that Cremellos are considered undesirerable... I think a double recessive palomino gene causes cremello though.

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11513
11/17/03 12:34 AM
11/17/03 12:34 AM
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You are right. The Palimno is darker. The Cremello is a creme or pale yellow. The gene responsible for camello dilutes out the red pigment. The gene C(cr). When both parents carry this gene it then produces...CcrCcr in the offspring.

Last edited by Judie; 11/17/03 12:42 AM.
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11514
11/17/03 01:06 PM
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Palamino's are beautiful!! Until they get old lol

Interesting about all of the info regarding colours and what they mean.

Re: color variations [Re: Holly1221] #11515
11/17/03 01:48 PM
11/17/03 01:48 PM

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While the cost for an entire sequence would be cost prohibative running in the millions, if you could identify the area of a chromosome to be sequenced and you know exactly where to look,by cross referencing other albino sequences it might be a lot less, in the thousands. I will talk with my genetics professor on this.

Ushuaia

Re: color variations [Re: ] #11516
11/18/03 01:26 AM
11/18/03 01:26 AM
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Here is updated photo from Flying Fur Ranch of creme colored glider in attachment.

Attached Files
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11517
11/18/03 01:28 AM
11/18/03 01:28 AM
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Another photo from Flying Fur Ranch.

Attached Files
166348-000_0572.JPG (143 downloads)
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11518
11/18/03 01:30 AM
11/18/03 01:30 AM
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And last last photo from Flying Fur Ranch in attachment.

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166350-000_0569.JPG (138 downloads)
Re: color variations [Re: ] #11519
11/18/03 02:43 AM
11/18/03 02:43 AM

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they are so adorable. So is flying fur ranch calling them cream?

Re: color variations [Re: RSXTC] #11520
11/18/03 05:07 AM
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Do you know what they are asking for those babies or will they be keeping them?

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