GliderCENTRAL

Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys)

Posted By: Anonymous

Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/16/06 01:57 PM

Poor Piper. We just can't seem to shake this diarrhea. She's been on metronidazole (Flagyl) since Wednesday when we had a positive fecal test for trichomonads. By Friday she was no better, and maybe just a little worse. I took her in and they subQ'd her because she was a little dehydrated and we started her on Baytril in addition to the metronidazole.

She felt much better after her subQ Friday night and ate better than she had for the previous two days (which had been almost nothing) but still had the soft poo. Yesterday (Sunday) I thought she was a little dehydrated again, so I did the subQ myself (the vet had sent me home with the stuff I needed) but was only able to get 2cc's in instead of the 4 I was trying for. That still seemed to help and she was running all over her cage last night and ate a decent amount.

But this morning when I had her wrapped in a piece of fleece to give her her meds, she pooped in the fleece and it was VERY runny. Probably worse than it's been up until now.

From what I understand, neither of the meds she's on has a tendency to cause diarrhea as a side effect, but I wanted to see if anyone had had this happen to them.

Has anyone else had a case of persistent diarrhea that did not respond to two strong antibiotics?

By the way, I had been feeding fruits like pears and apples and honeydew in addition to her PML and mealies, but after talking to MaryH last night, I cut out all fruit and gave her PML (which she ate all of), a flake of oatmeal (she likes those), sweet potatoes (she ate a little) and a dollop of yogurt (which I don't think she touched). Also on Mary's advice, I offered her a bit of cheddar cheese, but she had no interest in that. Also, I changed her water to Gatoraide to help keep her hydrated.

The dehydration is my biggest concern, especially after seeing that runny poop this morning. I can tell she's not feeling well when she starts dehydrating, but she won't drink for me, and I'm really not comfortable subQing myself (although I suppose I will get better at it). worried
Posted By: glidrz5

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/16/06 01:59 PM

Awwwwwwww, poor Piper. I see you've tried the oatmeal. What about canned pumpkin? Isn't that supposed to help with diarrhea?
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/16/06 02:39 PM

If she's not drinking on her own, you may need to force-feed either Gatorade or Pedialyte to her. I have been doing this with Cricky for the past 4 days now. It's similar to giving oral meds, but you give about .5 cc's of liquid via syringe, just a bit at a time, making sure she swallows. If she won't swallow on her own, rub her nose a little bit, this will make her lick her nose & in the process she'll swallow...
Keeping her & you in my prayers... hug2
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/16/06 03:11 PM

Poor Piper!!! Poor you!!!

I am so sorry you are both going thru this.

In humans antibiotics can wipe out the beneficial intestinal flora and fauna and lead to diahrrea and gas. Active culture yogurt and activa sometimes help replacing it, but you have to keep feeding it while on antibiotic therapy as the meds keep wiping it out, so you are always playing catch-up. There are also some granulated replacement products available, but I am not sure of the brand names. I think Benebac is one, but ask a pharmicist or the vet. A pharmacist would know as they have to be refrigerated and are kept in the pharmacy fridge, although they do not require an rx. Health food stores also have "probiotic" products that serve the same purpose.

The pectin in red apples helps firm up soft poo.

Positive thoughts and prayer coming your way.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/16/06 04:31 PM

Im so sorry to hear about your baby. You might try some heavy protein like chicken, turkey, or even whey protein based shakes. Heavy protein drys up the lower intestine somtimes. I would not do mealies the high fa content might lubricate the lower intestine more. Or I might try a few more flakes of oats...?

If you find something that works, let us know. Hopefully the metro will take effect soon and help her.

note: Canned pumpkin is usually for constipation, not runny stools. Its high in fiber, thats all I am sure of.
Posted By: BeckiT

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/16/06 04:43 PM

Originally Posted By: GliderGuru
note: Canned pumpkin is usually for constipation, not runny stools. Its high in fiber, thats all I am sure of.


Actually, canned pumpkin (plain, not pie filling) works for both constipation and diarehhea. My mom had a dog with constant stomach problems that had to spend his last 8 years eating pumpkin as the meds would take it from one extreme to the other where the pumpkin regulated it to where no meds were needed...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/16/06 04:56 PM

humm, intresting to know, thanks, BeckiT.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/16/06 05:03 PM

Thanks everyone. I just spoke to Dr. Brandt. We were discussing exactly what you said, angelskates. He also suggested the Benebac and of course yogurt.

So I guess we're going on the assumption that that is the reason for the loose stool: decreased natural intestinal flora due to antibiotics. He said to keep giving her both meds, try to force fluids, and watch her for dehydration, and to give her the yogurt, Activia (a brand of yogurt drink) and/or Benebac.

If it weren't for the loose stool this morning, I would have been very encouraged by the way she's acting and eating (somewhat). She seemed so lively last night that I was able to go to sleep with my mind sort of at ease. Then this morning when I saw the runny poop, I was bummed again.

Well, we'll keep plugging along. GliderGuru, I will try the chicken tonight along with what I mentioned above. Thanks.
Posted By: BeckiT

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/16/06 07:02 PM

PK, Activia is a new brand of yogurt (not a drink) that has beneficial bacteria (active yogurt cultures) in it to keep you "regular" iykwim... Mine wouldn't eat it until I mixed some blueberries in it for them...
Posted By: pappy1264

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/16/06 07:05 PM

I am new to all this, but can't stress in and of itself cause diarrhea? Having to grab and hold her, plus doing the sub-q's, could that be causing it?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/17/06 02:15 AM

Yes Mary, you're right that stress could be contributing to it. I know that's not all of it though because the poops in the bottom of her cage have also been very soft, but formed.

Surprisingly, she seems more stressed by me forcing fluids and giving her meds than by getting a subQ. She doesn't really even flinch when the needle goes in. I just can't hold her and subQ her at the same time. I think their skin is not very sensitive over their shoulders because that's where the male tends to bite them during mating.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/17/06 03:19 AM

I think you are right about the skin on their shoulders. That is also where the babies hang on to the fur.

Activia is just like yogurt except it is cultured with a different bacteria. Sorry Im having a brain blank and cant think which one. It is listed on the container tho. Could be a bulgaris and another. well, anyway, it is a culture of flora and fauna that usually colonizes the colon or large intestine.

Yogurt is cultured from lactobacillus acidolpholus (sorry I just cant spell tonite) which is more prevalent in the small intestine. Since antibiotics kill off the flora and fauna in both locations it makes sense to offer both as replacement therapy. I believe the benebac and similar "probiotic preparations" include both types as well as other less prevalent but also beneficial organisms.

Pumpkin, apples and other fruits contain pectin (its what makes jelly jell), a water soluble fiber that holds moisture and adds bulk to the feces and therefore helps to regulate a bowel that has been irritated.

If the bowel is irritated (say by a food that is too acid) it quickly pours a lot of fluid into the bowel and dumps it all out.(diarhia) It also dumps out its flora and fauna. With no beneficial flora and fauna everything irritates the bowel and it continues the cycle. Pectin absorbs some of that water and slows things down a little, allowing the remaining beneficial flora and fauna to regenerate and return the bowel to a more normal environment.

However, if the flora and fauna have been killed by antibiotics, there are none left to regenerate and pectin by itself is not adequate to stop the cycle.

In the absence of beneficial flora and fauna, non- beneficial flora and fauna (such as botulism) will quickly fill the empty niche and produce toxins that can be absorbed into the body, produce other problems, and contribute to the general Not Feeling Well feeling.

Dont know about suggies, but in humans you need to continue the supplemented flora and fauna for about two weeks after termination of the anibiotic therapy to allow the bowel to recover.

Your suggies are so lucky to have you taking such good care of them.

We are praying for you.

Angel and The Suggies

Posted By: Xglider

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/17/06 03:33 AM

hug2 mlove


This long distance stuff stinks.. tant


Saunda... hang in there... hug2
Posted By: BeckiT

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/17/06 03:46 AM

Originally Posted By: angelskates
Activia is just like yogurt except it is cultured with a different bacteria. Sorry Im having a brain blank and cant think which one.


the active live culture in Activia is bifudis regularis
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/17/06 05:16 AM

thanks thanks

I knew it was one of those b.. names, I just hate when that happens.

Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/17/06 06:07 AM

My daughter was on Flagyl about 2 weeks ago for a bacterial infection and had to stop taking it cause it caused severe diarreah and she couldn't go to school. Doc had to give her something else. I realize she is the human kind (sometimes, lol) but wanted to throw that in.
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/17/06 06:10 AM

One other thing, orange juice will make the diarreah worse too. Isn't that in the PML? Honey itself can cause either constipation OR diarreah especially if one is sick already. I'm speaking in human terms here but I would think it would be the same for animals. I cannot tolerate orange juice at all if I even have a cold (and it's supposed to help) cause I will get bad diarreah. frown
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/17/06 12:52 PM

OJ is in Priscilla's diet - not PML thumb

Sundra, I know with Petrie, he would have soft stools EVERY time I went to give meds. I took a stool sample into the vet everyday for about two weeks - and nothing EVER showed. But he would have normal stools while in his cage. To this day he still has loose stools whenever I have to clip nails too (which makes nail clipping all the more fun tounge ) - so I know he gets them when stressed.

Maybe a combo of the meds and stress (of being sick, a new home, etc.) are just a lot for her right now....

Either way, hoping she continues to improve hug2 for you and Piper!



Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/17/06 01:23 PM

We use a medication called Ensorb from the vet in circumstances like this. It really helps with the severe watery stools when nothing else works, which we allways try first. I have had a few rescues that were on Flagyl after they got here and they all had the watery stools. Keeping you and your babies in my thoughts and prayers.
Angie
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/18/06 09:32 PM

You guys are really wonderful! Thank you for the information about Activia. I didn't realize it was a different type of bacteria from what is in regular yogurt, so I will see about getting some.

Kristin, I agree that they can really go watery fast under stress. She did that at the vet's the other day (more watery than usual) and he said he thought it was probably stress that time.

Angie, I've got a call in to my vet about Ensorb. Is that a medication just to absorb the water in the gut, or is it another way to repopulate the bacterial flora in the gut? When I asked one of the vet techs about it, she said they had something called "biosponge" which sounds like the same kind of thing.

angelskates, thanks for all the great information. I may try some of those pectin containing foods. I think I have some canned pumpkin.

Last night I thought she was much better. She had a couple of formed stools that didn't seem as soft as they had been, and she was good about taking the Gatoraide/Glideraide mixture I've been offering her as well as yogurt. I actually didn't have to force the fluids anymore because she's taking it when I offer it from the water bottle while she's in the pouch. That's a relief because I hate forcing fluids and giving subQ's. She seems to be staying hydrated better now.

Anyway, as I said, I thought she was really truly on the mend last night, but then this morning, in addition to another formed stool on the wheel, there were also several totally watery (as in just brown water) drips under the wheel! tant I couldn't understand how she could have some good and some totally watery stools in just a few hours. I thought maybe she did the formed one on her Rescue wheel (open mesh running track) then peed right on top of it and the urine just "rinsed it off" forming these brown drips, but I don't know. My friend who's a vet tech said a rescue glider she had who got trichs was doing the same thing (watery and formed stools, back and forth). It seems I always feel confident she's getting better when I go to bed at night, only to wake up to either a full food dish (which was the case this morning, but she ate after I got up) or bad poops or dehydration. frown

So I'm still crossing my fingers that it's either a side effect of the meds or due to an imbalance of bacteria in the gut and that it will resolve when we're done with the meds and get her balance back. Several of the posts above do make me feel more confident that's what it is, particularly angelskates and SugarBlossums. thanks
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/18/06 10:16 PM

A home remedy that will work in certain situations is to scramble an egg in a little water and add some shredded chedder cheese. Blend the cheese in and serve the egg and ceese mixture as a protein source. This will sometimes safely tighten the gliders stool within 24 hrs. The cheese is what does the trick;...
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/18/06 11:44 PM

lol, Charlie, Mary already told me that trick of yours when we were on the phone the other night, but unfortunately, Piper didn't seem interested in the cheese. I know I tried egg a few weeks ago and she also wasn't that interested in that either. She did finally eat her boiled chicken last night though. I may try cheese again tonight.

*edit: The vet called back and said Benebac is a good idea to try, but he didn't recommend doing the Activia because the bacteria in that is specific for humans and he wasn't sure if it would be good for gliders. He said the yogurt was still okay, but not to overdo it, and if she got worse on it, to stop. I think I'll try some more pharmacies for Benebac. I checked two Walgreens and they didn't have it but said they sometimes do.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/19/06 12:28 AM

Piper is on very powerful medication that kills off the bacteria in the body, both the good guys and the bad guys. She will continue to have diarrhea as long as she is on the medication.

By offering replacement good guys (yogurt, Benebac) you are helping to repopulate her system BETWEEN DOSES of medication. As soon as the next medication dose peaks in her system it wipes everyone out again, so you replace again. You are in a holding pattern of giving her as much relief as possible, while still maintaining a therapuetic level of medication. The more often you offer replacement good guys the longer the duration of the benefit from them in the gut and the fewer of the bad guys (botulism, etc) will be able to overgrow the gut. Therefore, it is logical that you will see formed stool and watery stool both, as the levels of medication and the good guy population in the gut fluctuate.

Once she has stopped taking the medication, her gut environment will return to normal after about two weeks of continued replacement therapy.

The main concerns I would have around this issue are:

1. Dehydration - which you seem to have undercontrol

2. Irritation of the cloacal region from the ongoing diarrhea - which has not yet been a problem


Sending prayers your way. You are doing a great job and Piper is so lucky to have you for a momma.

Angel and the Suggies
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/19/06 12:55 AM

Gosh its been so long since I have given any I had to go look up the vet records. The medication is called Endosorb, it really helped. I sent you a PM. Sending thoughts and prayers to you.
Angie
Posted By: Xfilefan

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/19/06 01:13 AM

Sundra, you can give 3-4 Single flakes of Quaker regular cooking oats (no more or you risk a blockage)-it really helps to absorb the excess water in the intestines. And NOT the quick cook kind-they absorb TOO fast.

HOWEVER-if you think maybe the trichs aren't responding to the Metro, you might want to ask your vet about Ivermectin (it's stronger), and continue with the oatmeal. Oatmeal really does work, believe it or not.

I haven't had a glider refuse the oatmeal yet-they act like it's a yummy treat. IF she does, tho, try cooking some with a little honey to sweeten-you can give up to 1/8 tsp. cooked. It will still work. hug2

Also offer daily yogurt, or try and get some benebac from either your vet or a local pharmacy. And if you're not, pedialyte to stave off dehydration. You can put it down with a syringe if you have to.
Keep us updated, and give the little one a kiss for me!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/19/06 01:54 AM

Guys, this is all conjecture on my part, but after reading all the posts, I'd like to add the following:

Oatmeal is a fantastic "tightener", extremely high in glutens that the system does not break down overly much. In addition to active yogurt cultures, I'd like to point out that ANY homebrewed beverage or beverage that is "naturally carbonated" will carry a strain of yeast that has been linked to a 31% reduction in occurances of abdominal and colorectal abnormalities in people. The study was released 2 yeasr ago in the JAMA (Journal of American Medicine)-the strains typically used for Ales reproduce at an astonishing rate, and lemme tell you I use them for both brewing as well as in my home made bread; any type may be ordered online, or from a local home brew shop for about $6 per vial, which is about 50ml. As I am a brewer by hobby, my babies get treated to the occasional fresh few grains of barley or oatmeal, and of course there is an ample supply of wild yeast in my place perforce. Non of my babies have ever been ill (banging my head on wooden table) but that I am sure is because of the total package they get...just ask Bourbon!


Peeper, there are several shops in Texas, I'll PM anyone more info as they want.....sorry your babies are sick frown
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/19/06 02:36 AM

What a great idea!!

Active culture brewers yeast is available at all health food stores. It is sometimes called nutritional yeast, although, nutritional yeast is not necessarily active culture. It became very popular,as did home brew for nursing mothers, during the 60's as a natural source of b-complex vitamins, which are produced by the yeasts and remain in the home brew. Commercial brews in the USA are filtered and the yeasts are removed.

Health food stores also keep a refrigerated source of beneficial flora and fauna like benebac, but under different brand names. Another one in pharmacies is Lactinex, if you cannot find the Benebac.

Angel and The Suggies


ps

do you give your suggies the brew, or just the yeast?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/19/06 04:31 AM

Thanks for the info, Shaun. I know where a home brew store is not to far from my house. It's right next door to the salt water fish store I go to.

Is yeast actually one of the beneficial organisms that normally live in the gut? First thing that comes to my mind, especially when you mention nursing mothers (I was one) is yeast infections. I wouldn't want to give her one of those on top of everything else. I believe the common yeast infection yeast is candida, so maybe it's a different type that you find in health food stores.

I didn't get a chance to look for the Benebac today. Hopefully tomorrow...

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/19/06 06:55 AM

Brewers yeast and home brew was recommended to nursing mothers as a rich source of b-comples vitamins. I dont think it was expected to colonize the gut. It produces alcohol in the brew which eventually kills the yeast. And baking the bread kills the bakers yeast.

When I was a child they sold 1 lb. blocks of brewers yeast in the refrigerated area in the grocery stores so people could make home brew. They also sold bakers yeast by the pound block. It was wrapped in wax paper, like a pound of butter. Then it went away and they only had little tiny blocks of bakers yeast. Then in the 60's it became popular as a vitamin supplement and people could get the active brewers yeast at health food stores for home brew. Now, there are the brew shops with pedigree yeast for home brew.

I dont think it is the same critter that causes yeast infections and I dont think it normally lives in the gut, but I could be wrong. I am sure someone on the forum knows the real answer to that question. The one that causes yeast infections is the same one that causes thrush in infants. hmmm might be better to check with the vet before using live brewers yeast. I have never seen a recommendation to eat it live, just dried as a supplement.

Angel and the Suggies
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/19/06 10:28 AM

'Morning guys...

Brewers yeast is Sacchromyeces Cerevisiae, which has been "domesticated" over the centuries, and I mean the past 1500 years. Most Europeans on the Board will agree it is unfortunate, but factual, that Americans as a whole know less about Brewing than a 13 year old knows about Calculus!

There are several substrains in use world wide, and although not intended to live in the gut, it is like everyone sez, the fantastic source of B complex vitamins. I'll use a bit of dried malt (the sugar that comes from grain, like barley) with water and an eyedropper of yeast in a dish on the counter for an hour, and put that on top of warm, fresh bread along with butter. It gives it a kinda sour dough background flavor, but the sugar over rides it!

It should also be mentioned there is one particular strain of yeast, Lambic, that is the most voracious on Earth. Almost no bacterial organism can survive an attack of this yeast strain, it is so potent that brewers leave there product out IN THE OPEN AIR to allow spontaneous fermentation to occur. It is so powerful, that no brewery can EVER brew any other product EXCEPT Lambic once it has been used. It begins to reside in every porous surface, and short of burning down the building you're stuck with it for ever! Do not select this one if you go shopping; I use either London Ale or Belgian Abbey Ale strains for my non brew related uses....

Good luck, and I hope everything works out. You may also try mixing your active yogurt culture with some Puppy or Kitten milk replacer found in the pet section of Walmart or other pet stores....

Best to your babies....:)
Posted By: queenduck

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/19/06 11:59 AM

Any new new? Hope all is well.
Posted By: Anonymous

Piper's Poop - 10/20/06 04:42 AM

Okay, just how weird are we glider people? I am going to post a picture of the poop that Piper presented me with tonight, and I bet a bunch of you will look at it!

As many of you know, my hubby is not "into" the gliders. He had just gone to bed when I was tending to Piper (giving meds, checking hydration level, disinfecting wheel, cleaning out drop pan so I know all the new poops, disinfecting water bottle and food dish, feeding her, etc.) and I saw this nice, big, FORMED poop! clap I ran into the bedroom with it on a tissue and asked him if he wanted to see her poop (yes, I was kidding). He just kinda rolled his eyes and shook his head. shakehead I said, "I think I'll take a picture of it and post it for everyone to see!" He just said, "Okay, whatever." roflmao

I'm not kidding myself that she's out of the woods yet. It seems that every night I see signs that she's getting better, then every morning she does something to make me think she's worse. But at least I know she's not only producing brown water poop like I found in the cage bottom this morning. smile She is still eating, playing and staying hydrated without forcing fluids or subQing too.

Attached picture 4050-Poop.JPG
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Piper's Poop - 10/20/06 04:45 AM

haha..we all used to the poo
Posted By: LSardou

Re: Piper's Poop - 10/20/06 05:09 AM

clap I gotta say, we might be considered wierd, but so what, when you've been half sick with worry about these little ones any kind of sign of improvement is worth celebrating! I know just how you feel, when my little choco was having a horriable time with the "runny-wattery" pooh, (almost 4 months of it) I was just sick over it all. I'd pray for hard poop, soft poop, semi soft, did't matter just so it wasn't watery the day a soft poopie came, I called my husband in to look, well you can imagine the looks............!Once it gets like it looks in the pic don't get to discourage if it goes back and forth runny, formed,try and keep her as stress free as you can. It seemed like whenever choco was stressed his pooh turned soft. My vet said that it can take up to 3 months for the intestinal tract to regain all the necessary elements inorder for it to go back to normal functioning.
Keep up the good work! (I wouldn't frame it though) laugh
Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Re: Piper's Poop - 10/20/06 07:04 AM

Wowzer! Now THAT's a poopoo to be proud of!! Did you measure it? hehe J/K

Glad to ummm, SEE she has a good poopy! Yay! I'm praying for her to get better fast!

I'm totally lost on the yeast thing here, soooo, if we drink beer, does that mean we would be healthy or what? No, I don't drink but would drink one if it would help!
Posted By: BCChins

Re: Piper's Poop - 10/20/06 12:28 PM

Nice looking poop you got there!! I beleive you can get Benbac at Petco also. It comes in 3 little vials. They seem to have a different one in each animal section.
Keep up the good work you are a great Glider Mommy. Piper you get better and stop making your Mommy worry so much.
Posted By: BeckiT

Re: Piper's Poop - 10/20/06 01:44 PM

4 posts and 12 views of the poop pic, lol... I can only imagine what non suggie lovers think about us, lmbo... Birds of a feather, ya know? I think hubby would have me committed for that, but then again, I won't let him move the suggies heater, and noone can use "their" blender either, lmbo..
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Piper's Poop - 10/21/06 03:29 AM

Well, as I was afraid of, there was a puddle of poo in her cage bottom this morning after last night's nice formed one. I'm feeling very discouraged. This weekend I'm going to stop the meds and hope for the best, since the metro doesn't seem to be helping and may be keeping her gut irritated.

Worse yet, Peepers had a soft poo this morning. cry I'm hoping it was just because when I went to dinner last night with her in my bra, I gave her a small piece of tomato from my salad. It may have had a little vinaigrette on it. But my heart sunk when I saw that this morning. Then I really examined the bottom of her cage and there were others that looked a little suspicious but I couldn't tell because they had already dried up. I know she's been having normal ones too, (although a little small) because there have been 3 or 4 on the bottom of her wheel each morning.

Keep us in your prayers. frown
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Piper's Poop - 10/21/06 03:46 AM

good luck with all that. Try not to worry to much over the weekend. And if you need me, well you know where I am. Ill be at fiesta texas all day tommorow, but I should have my mobile phone on me if you decide you need a sitter. I think they will be fine overnight though.

The watery poops did completely become eliminated in my rescue btw, and that was while she was still on meds. Im not sure what that is an indicator of, just letting your know.

At the same time, I find that she goes on and off eating every few nights, but over all she has gained 30% in weight since I got her! She was a skinny frail little thing, now she is robust, and pregnant! aaaah! At least her bugs are all cleared up. At least thats what my fecals keep telling me. At least I get the opportunity to run them all the time since I work there and it dosen't cost me anything.

Point is, if you need anything let me know. -e
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Piper's Poop - 10/21/06 04:07 AM

Thanks so much, Elizabeth. I forgot to call you back, but I did find someone to come check on them for me, and she works in a vet's office too, although she's not a tech. She lives right over there by you off of Balcones, and her daughter is my daughter's best friend.

Did you say it took a while before your little rescue started getting better, or was it just a few days? Was she just on metro? Dr. Tristan (Peggy's vet and a friend of Dr. Echols) said he seems to have his success in killing trichs go from about 60% to about 89% by adding Panacure to the metro. If going off the meds doesn't settle her down after a few days, I may want to try that.

I talked to Dr. Echols earlier today, and to be honest, it really made me feel more worried. He keeps going back to the liver thing, and he even said (I think, if I understood him correctly) that there were a lot of gliders whose symptoms were gastrointestinal, but after they were gone, necropsies showed liver failure as the cause of death. So we were talking about doing blood work, but I couldn't get a clear picture of how it would be treated if he was able to get blood, and if it showed liver or kidney problems, or whatever. It sounded like that would just lead to more tests, but I don't know how they would treat something like that. So I'm hesitant to do a $189 test that sounds like it would just lead to more expensive tests before MAYBE we'd end up with some kind of answer, but even then maybe no cure.

On the positive side, Piper is still gaining weight and growing. She's 14 weeks old now, I think, and she's gone from 70 to 76 grams in the past week. Interestingly, Peepers also gained a few grams from her normal 82 grams this week.
Posted By: North_Nocturne

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/21/06 04:10 AM

One of my gliders has been on multiple antibiotics for UTI issues over the past five months and as a result he often has loose stool and once even had watery diarrhea. I make sure he gets extra water so he's never had a problem with dehydration. I always feed yogurt every night while he's on a course of meds. If he has a particularly soft bowel movement, I give him a bit of good quality cheese (NOT Velveeta or cheese singles- I like to use colby) and I also give him tiny pieces of a whole-grain bread. I began doing these things for my dogs and cats when they have diarrhea and my exoctics vet approves of me doing the same for my gliders.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/21/06 07:28 AM

While raising two active boys, I had many occassions to make medical decisions for them. It is really hard to resist doing tests, after all, the test might give some insight into the problem, some little crumb of info that might help us feel better about what we are doing to treat the problem.

But tests can have side effects also, and they cost...alot. Now, would I risk my families health over cost issues? Never! However, money spent on unnecessary tests is money that cannot be spent on other items that would enrich their environments and their lives.

So the trick is deciding what is necessary, and what is gee-whizz information. So my rule of thumb is this. If the results of the test are going give good information that will change treatment options and positively effect the outcome of treatment- do the test.

If the test is going to give great information, but will not significantly change the treatment options or the predicted outcome - dont do the test.

Diarrhea is a common side effect of the medication she is taking. Tomorrow is her last day on medication. Her diarrhea may resolve itself when the meds are withdrawn. Unless the results of these tests will give you information that is crucial to her recovery, maybe you should wait and consider them if she has any further issues that would indicate possible liver involvement. Kind of a do it now or do it later kind of decision, instead of a do it or not do it one. And if she recovers and grows and has no more health issues, you may never feel the need to run those tests.

Sending you prayers

Angel and The Suggies
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/21/06 08:20 AM

Well I looked at the poop too. smile
With the gliders comming in here that have had health issues, parasites or just loose stools from the stress, it does take some time for them to get back to normal. With Sydney, it was about 3 weeks. With Roxy, about 5 weeks till the watery stools stopped. With Mariah, about 2 months, Sheila, about 8 months, and so many more gliders.
My vet is very conservative and I agree with him that we would only do blood work as a last resort. Instead we treat the symtoms and change what we need to until the gliders are well. Not eveyone believes like me and I understand that though.
Good news about the weight gain, thats a good sign.
Continued prayers for you and your babies. Please let us know how you are doing.
Angie
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/21/06 02:02 PM

This is the first MORNING that I feel encouraged. I woke to the sound of ringing bells that told me Piper was up and playing. That wasn't that unusual because she's been feeling okay all along. She ate pretty well, also not that big a change. What was a change is that there weren't any smears of poo anywhere in the cage, including the wheel and the drop tray. Why am I encouraged by NO poo? I know when I have diarrhea, after it goes away, I'm kinda "cleaned out" for a while and don't go, so I'm thinking maybe that's happening to her.

Last night I didn't give her last dose of metro. I discussed it with the vet yesterday and he agreed it was a good idea stop the meds to see if the they were the cause. Usually the metro is a 5-7 day course anyway, so stopping on day 9 isn't like giving an abreviated course.

Also, Peepers had a small but normal and firm poop this morning. clap
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/21/06 02:12 PM

Peeps, I really wish you could get those babies down here. You know there is nothing like a hands on thing, and I know that you all talked with Dr.T but I would love for him to be able to check out the girls as well.

Keep us posted and let me know if there is anything I can do from here.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/27/06 01:50 AM

Well, I thought I was going to have to make another "she's still the same" post, but I have good news! Piper had a normal poop today! dance clap jump

I hadn't updated this thread in a while. Up until today, I was getting very discouraged. Piper had her last dose of metro last Friday (6 days ago) and I was at first hopeful that she would get better when I took her off the antibiotics. But unfortunately, she just got worse over the weekend. Monday I was going to take another poop sample in but there wasn't anyone there at the vet's office to read it. So then I was going to take one Tuesday, but I couldn't get Piper to provide one (stingy girl!) during office hours. Then finally Wednesday I got just a little bit and took it in. It came out clean. No trichs, no nothing. I wasn't sure if that was good news or bad. I mean, how was I going to treat her when I didn't know what was wrong?

I talked with the exotic vet who looked at the fecal sample I brought in Wednesday. He didn't see anything unusual in the sample (except for the fact that it was liquid). We discussed blood work and he even admitted that it may not lead to a treatment for Piper, but would help gain more understanding about gliders in general. If the blood work suggested a liver problem, the next course of action would be to biopsy the liver. I said I hate to put finacial restrictions on this, but the reality is that I have to. The blood work alone would be $184, which isn't exactly out of reach if it would suggest a treatment, but I imagine a biopsy would be even more which gets harder. Aside from that, there is the whole invasive aspect of the tests.

So we left the idea of more tests and I asked him what his "gut" feeling (pardon the pun) was about what's going on. He said a food allergy or diet related thing would be his first suspicion. He suggested cutting out all dairy products first, which includes PML (because of the whey in the Wambaroo, I think?) and yogurt. He said Benebac is fine. Also, he suggested the BRAT diet (the one you use with your skinkids when they need a bland diet: B=Bananas, R=Rice, A=Apples and T=Toast but you leave the toast off with suggies) which AngieH also suggested the other night. So last night she had rice baby cereal mixed with water, Gatoraide and a little maple syrup along with apple slices and a small dollop of cooked oatmeal.

I'm going to keep giving her that stuff for the next few nights, then slowly start to introduce other foods to try and figure out what it is that set her off. Still keep us in your prayers that she keeps doing well and doesn't "rebound".
Posted By: BeckiT

Re: Persistant diarrhea (need help, guys) - 10/27/06 02:15 AM

Pk, what great news! I hope she's back to "normal" soon!
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