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USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More"

Posted By: oakley

USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 03:22 PM

I have heard this OVER and OVER again. You have to have 3 or more breeding females to be USDA Licensed... you MUST get USDA licensed if you have 3 or more etc...


Well, I have to say that I have been turned down again and again by the USDA. I am included in the Eastern Region and I have tried to apply a number of times over the years.

I am a Florida Fish and Wildlife licensed breeder and I specifically decided to get 4 females (I have a trio now) so that I could *FINALLY* get my USDA license.

Drum roll please....... They still consider me to be a "hobby breeder" tant

I've called and bugged them... told them that I have 4... that's right, FOUR breeding females now and they have told me that it is not worth their time and effort to get me licensed and that I should just stick to my state regulations.... They said that I was welcome to apply... but that it would be pointless because they wouldn't accept me with so few breeding females and especially since Florida regulates the breeding and sale of gliders.


Anyone else run into this??? Anywho, I just wanted to share my little story... it is frustrating to know that it is supposedly unlawful for me to have my 4 females and NOT be USDA licensed upset ... but then again, it would be a pain to go through it anyway and my standards and practices as a breeder are already higher than anything they require...
Posted By: StitchsMom

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 03:32 PM

Slightly different from my end, but similar. I haven't ever had more than three breeding females...usually only two. I wanted to get licensed anyway so I called and called. The folks I talked to refused to even send the paperwork so I gave up. That was a few years ago. You would think that anyone wanting a license could get one.
Posted By: Tish84

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 03:37 PM

Odd, I think Peggy only has 4 Breeding Females and she is USDA licensed. I'm sure she had to reapply when she moved to FL....maybe she can shed some light on this.
Posted By: oakley

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 03:42 PM

Tish... That would be great to have some "inside" advice. Perhaps Peggy was able to stay licensed with 4 because she already was licensed... do you know where she moved from? If she does have only 4, I may just call up USDA again and use her as an example smile
Posted By: Tish84

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 03:46 PM

Texas smile

You should shoot her an e-mail
Posted By: oakley

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 03:49 PM

good idea agree

Can anyone PM me her e-mail??
Posted By: Tish84

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 03:50 PM

I'm sure it's on her website: www.critterlove.com
Posted By: oakley

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 04:36 PM

Thanks wink
Posted By: oakley

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 04:40 PM

You know, I noticed that on her site, she has only 4 BREEDING females, but has more than 4 females it looks like she has 11 total. I'm pretty sure the USDA counts all intact females (dogs, cats, etc.). Perhaps this is why?

Sent her an e-mail too smile
Posted By: Srlb

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 05:12 PM

Hey Gang...wish I could be of more help to you but nope...cant here...

When I lived in Portland Texas I applied for my USDA and was told it was not necessary in our area to be USDA licensed unless I was an exhibitor or I owned a large exotic bird aviary.

When I opened my Pet Store, I went in again to apply not only for my store but also my gliders and was told the same thing... therefore, never being able to obtain a license.

When we moved to Florida, I KNEW I would HAVE to get a license because I KNEW the laws were different. I called probably about 2-3 weeks after moving down here to ask for my package to get the wheels rolling and Oakley, I was told the same thing as you...I was just considered a *Hobby Breeder* and although I have more than 4 females, they are not all breeding and most live with neutered males. Just as rescue homes are not required to have a license. As long as I follow all State Regulations it is not needed.

So, Im not going to go crazy over it. I dont plan to have any more than what I have right now.

In my eyes, it is nothing more than a piece of paper anyway. Really, even PPP is *USDA* and they always pass with flying colors. I personally think MY standards for how I maintain my gliders and their cages are much higher standards than any outside source could put on me...

Oakley, if it is something you want THAT badly, contact Paula, she is USDA licensed, but Im not sure how many breeding gliders she has. dunno
Posted By: Tish84

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 05:19 PM

I've been in Paula's glider room and I'm pretty sure she has more than 4 breeding females. But I still think it's a good idea to contact her for help....maybe she can provide more insight.


Sorry, Peggy I assumed you had one because I know you owned a pet store before you moved here.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 05:41 PM

When I went in to my local USDA office to ask them about it, I had to first explain to them what gliders are. (in return I got "Oh,you're that lady with the monkeys we've heard about") Then I had to show them THE BOOK that said I needed to be licensed. Then I had to explain to them that would mean having one of their inspectors come out to my home to inspect my facilities and such.

They didn't have a CLUE what I was even talking about. They would not help me. They are more concerned with cattle, dairy, pigs, goats....livestock. Oh, and land usage (I get $200 a year for NOT growing wheat or corn).

One more neuter and I'll be down to 3 breeding females anyway so I gave up.
Posted By: oakley

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 05:54 PM

Teresa and Peggy, thanks for making me feel like I'm not alone.

I really don't care about the license... as said before, my standards are higher than they would ever ask for.

I pretty much gave up after they told me no when I called about it in December (when I officially had 4 females).
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/15/10 07:37 PM

I am having the same difficulty here in NY.....I finally got them to send me a package but the lady on the phone said it will most likely be a waste of my time as they consider me a hobby breeder as well.....
Posted By: snowbabygliders

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/22/10 06:01 PM

Odd lol. i must have a really strict inspector etc. Even if i had two breeding females and five females in with neutered males, here they count those females and were extremely adamant that 3 or more and i needed to be licensed asap. Was told this by two different women on the phone with the regional office;) they now are considering as i was told ( if you are breeding any) the females in with netered males since they can not be fixed (technically) as breeding females. To be honest the whole darn thing needs to be adjusted!!! you cant go telling one person they need to be upheld by the same law that another person isn't. a law is a law and i wish they'd figure out what it was. i can see why you are so frustrated. Everyone should be equal in the laws. what if they told soemone no, the someone higher up in the USDA got a complaint against for ex. this person they told no, and seized gliders because the person wasnt USDA licensed because they were told not to be. Thats sad. Things should be black and white and all laws should be the same for everyone if they are federal alws. state laws are the exemption obviously I.e. California is illegal to own and not others frown
Posted By: Dancing

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/22/10 06:46 PM

First of all, the USDA won't seize gliders because of law violations. They might fine the owner (and large amounts I understand) but they don't seize gliders.

I do agree that the laws should be applied evenly and fairly to everyone. They also need to UNDERSTAND the laws as they have them written.

Their OWN LAWS state "more than 3 breeding females"

Not 3 or more

and not breedable

but "more than 3 breeding females"
Posted By: oakley

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/22/10 07:34 PM

Teresa,

I agree agree Unfortunately though, whoever heads up the south-eastern division doesn't care about sticking to the letter of the law...


And now there is someone who would love to buy my joeys, but can't because she lives in Georgia frown We are trying to find a way to stay within the law, but it is sad that the USDA regulates it, and then dismissively turns down people.
Posted By: snowbabygliders

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/22/10 08:26 PM

yeah bad example but in any case a hefty fine when they told someone it wasn't required when it was, is not ok. I agree they should know the laws they have written and put in place. i'm so sorry megan. frown
Posted By: gliderma

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/22/10 10:07 PM

It is the USDA so it should be the same for all of the US, you'd think! I have an office right here walking distance who didn't even know they (the USDA) "had any say over sugar gliders, What are they anyway?" Duh? How can they regulate what they don't know?????!!!!!!! That's our wonderful government at work and we are paying for them to do such a wonderful job!!!!
Posted By: GliderGuyVA

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/22/10 10:58 PM

If the USDA tells you it's a "waste of time" then be sure to get that in writting. That way you have a record of what transpired and what was said. Just my 2 cents smile
Posted By: snowbabygliders

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/22/10 11:08 PM

good advice! yes i'd definately get it in writing meghan.;)
Posted By: oakley

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/23/10 12:10 PM

Ha! I'd love to get ANYTHING in writing from the USDA...
Posted By: countrygal

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/24/10 04:04 AM

As a general rule of thumb, state law can be equivalent to or more stringent than the corresponding federal law, but never less stringent. This is why glider ownership is not permitted in some states, such as California, and is permitted in others.
Posted By: konotashi

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/24/10 08:27 AM

I was thinking that you should get it in writing too. Because if they DO try to fine you for not having a license, you can show them that you've TRIED to get a license but they told you it's a waste of time.
Posted By: oakley

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/24/10 12:08 PM

I'll call and ask for something in writing... but they're never very cooperative frown
Posted By: GliderGuyVA

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/24/10 12:25 PM

I discussed this topic with my wife and according to her this is not a new subject with her. She has delt with many breeders of different species and they have all had similar issues with the USDA people. As long as you are taking proper care of your pets you should not be worried about your local Govt. coming after you. The USDA is so under-staffed that they do not have the time or money to check on every small breeder. They are mostly concerned with livestock and other animals that are for human consumption. If your local Govt. has to come to your house then maybe you are not taking proper care of your pets. They are aware of the issues that small breeders are having with the USDA.

Just have as much as possible documented with the dates, time, and who you talked to. If you are raising your pets properly and have all the documentation possible then you should not have to worry.
Posted By: oakley

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/24/10 12:52 PM

Thanks smile
Posted By: Catman

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 02:02 PM

Their own laws also state ""The following activities require a Class A license:
C selling of domestic dogs or cats to a
< pet shop
< broker
< dealer
< exhibitor
< research facility
NOTE: Persons with 3 or less breeding females are
exempt.
C selling of 25 or more dogs or cats or any combination
thereof to a research facility
C selling of more than $500 per calendar year of nondangerous
pet type animals to a:
< pet shop
< broker
< dealer
< exhibitor
< research facility
C selling of any wild/exotic animals, excluding hoofstock,for:< pets
< exhibition
< research"



"selling of any wild/exotic animals, excluding hoofstock,for:< pets"
Posted By: snowbabygliders

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 03:39 PM

Just an update i emailed my inspector. IF you breed and also have females in with neutered males, those females though in with neutered males do count as breeding females because they can not be spayed. it may be ridiculous to us as it is.....but its considered a violation if you have 3 breeding females for example and two more in with neuetered males...that would bring your breeding females up to 5. she even cited a blue book code. I have it all in email. the laws are changing and i guess from what i gather they dont want breeders to try and get around that law by doing that. Do a google search on these exact terms "usda licensed hedgehogs" the first choice that comes up on the page on google click it. at the very bottom read the box in peach with an asterick. Its unfair ina sense since females in with neutered males won't breed if they stay in with their neutered mate, but it is what the new laws are trying to enforce. ( i didnt know if i could post the link on here or not so i gave directions to an example LOL )dunno
Posted By: tjlong

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 03:55 PM

The people at the main office in my area told me that any kind of females that are whole in the house that total more than 3 count. That means if you have a whole female dog plus 3 female suggies you need a license. I asked several times and confirmed with them. I am going to call Monday to start the process of getting my license. I have my packet but they said just call when I am ready to fill out the info. We will see if I get a different story Monday. dunno
Posted By: Dancing

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 04:49 PM

Kristy

One problem is that is a hedgehog site, not the USDA site. No where in the USDA handbook (that sites the USDA laws) does it say it considers females in with neutered males as "breeding females".

I know this is such a debated topic and again, I suppose it depends on your inspector. However, IN COURT, the court/judge would have to go by what is written in the USDA handbook as being the guidelines and it says "more than 3 breeding females".
Posted By: hpyhwn2003

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 05:02 PM

when I got my license I was told i had to have 5 breeding females. But that's here in IL. I also had to contact the IL Dept of Ag. Maybe you should contact you dept of ag too?
Posted By: Marsupial_Mayhem

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 05:12 PM

It must be different with each inspector. My inspector told me she was not going to count pet only females. Only the ones with intact males.

So, what is right, and what is wrong.
Posted By: Marsupial_Mayhem

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 05:17 PM

Originally Posted By: oakley
I have heard this OVER and OVER again. You have to have 3 or more breeding females to be USDA Licensed... you MUST get USDA licensed if you have 3 or more etc...


Well, I have to say that I have been turned down again and again by the USDA. I am included in the Eastern Region and I have tried to apply a number of times over the years.

I am a Florida Fish and Wildlife licensed breeder and I specifically decided to get 4 females (I have a trio now) so that I could *FINALLY* get my USDA license.

Drum roll please....... They still consider me to be a "hobby breeder" tant

I've called and bugged them... told them that I have 4... that's right, FOUR breeding females now and they have told me that it is not worth their time and effort to get me licensed and that I should just stick to my state regulations.... They said that I was welcome to apply... but that it would be pointless because they wouldn't accept me with so few breeding females and especially since Florida regulates the breeding and sale of gliders.


Anyone else run into this??? Anywho, I just wanted to share my little story... it is frustrating to know that it is supposedly unlawful for me to have my 4 females and NOT be USDA licensed upset ... but then again, it would be a pain to go through it anyway and my standards and practices as a breeder are already higher than anything they require...



I too was turned down when I lived in AZ, because they told me, at that time, I didn't have enough to bother with. They have so many others on their plate with more, that they would not inspect me at that time.

At that time, I owned 2 pairs and one trio. A total of 4 females.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 05:38 PM

I got mine 2 years with 3 females without any problems ro questions asked. Maybe there are so many breeders now that they are changing their standards??
Posted By: oakley

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 05:52 PM

Sandi... you're a lucky one!

Will you please PM me your USDA license number so I can use you as an example next time I call the USDA? If you're not comfortable with it, that's ok, but I'd love to have some evidence that there really are people with only 3 females that have been licensed.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 05:59 PM

Sure PM sent
Posted By: snowbabygliders

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 07:26 PM

hi Teresa wave totally understand what you are getting at too. wink that is why i asked as im confuzzled too. mlove I will get the blue book code. i just used that site as an example. it can be applied to sugar gliders i dont see why not? trust me i dont agree with it, but even the eastern regional office told me this. then i asked my inspector. every inspector is different as danielle stated and others. She took a week to get back to me on that question as if i sell to anyone who is supposed to be licensed i could be fined 3500 per animal in violation. dunno we may all think it is ridiculous as i do, i don't understand it myself, but when im told this twice on two separate occasion by two separate eastern regional women at the offices and then reconfirmed by my inspector i am not willing personally to risk my gliders. I care about them sooo much. So i'm someone that will say its betetr to be safe than sorry. i know the USDA is not square across the baord with everyone and it is a true bummer. however my inspector will make sure i am complying with the laws via my records.


here is my question asked in email:

If someone had 3 breeding females and say 2 females in with their own neutered male, would that be considered over th limit? or are those 2 extra females not considered because they are in with neutered males. This has been a very big topic on the forums.


the answer one week later:

Hello Kristy,

Sec. 2.75 Records: Dealers and exhibitors.
b)(1) Every dealer other than operators of auction sales and brokers to whom animals are consigned, and exhibitor shall make, keep, and maintain records or forms which fully and correctly disclose the following information concerning animals other than dogs and cats, purchased or otherwise acquired, owned, held, leased, or otherwise in his or her possession or under his or her control, or which is transported, sold, euthanized, or otherwise disposed of by that dealer or exhibitor. The records shall include any offspring born of any animal while in his or her possession or under his or her control.

Therefore it has always been understood that all animals are listed on the inventory and therefore they count even though they may be in with neutered males.



One question for all is if one inspector is very by the book etc and he/she is sick when they need to inspect and they send in the other inspector also in your state instead....wouldn't you rather be making sure your DEFINATELY within the laws.

I'm not trying to stir the pot here. Just open awareness. I know i am unwilling to take any chances at all, but maybe its just me...i asked several times this same question when i only had three breeding females and one pet onloy pair and they were incredibly stict about it. I wish the same info on laws whether it be the same as i was told or not be relayed the same way to everyone then there would be no confusion. I can tell ya i'm confused and i also know that others are being told different, other inspectors are understanding the law in different ways....so what is the right answer????The hedgehog site was just one i had pulled up as an example on the USDA laws.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 07:48 PM

Originally Posted By: oakley
Teresa,

I agree agree Unfortunately though, whoever heads up the south-eastern division doesn't care about sticking to the letter of the law...


And now there is someone who would love to buy my joeys, but can't because she lives in Georgia frown We are trying to find a way to stay within the law, but it is sad that the USDA regulates it, and then dismissively turns down people.


I may have misunderstood while reading through this, but are you not able to ship gliders if you are not USDA licensed?
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 07:53 PM

The laws in Georgia state that you can only own a sugar glider if it is purchased from a USDA licensed breeder.

I've run into the same problem. I have 4 "non-breeding" females, plus 2 breeding ones. The USDA doesn't want to take my calls!!

It makes it very hard when many people "preach" "ONLY buy from a USDA licensed breeder" - but PPP is USDA, and I'm not. Personally, if *I* were going to buy a glider, I'd rather buy from me than from PPP!!

Also, many of the lists of glider breeders specify "USDA licensed" or not. It doesn't take into account us "Hobby Breeders." Who - by the way - are also taxed differently, because it is a "hobby" not a "business."
Posted By: tjlong

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 08:21 PM

Chelsea0252, I think the problem is that, in Georgia you have to buy from a USDA licensed breeder so they won't let you ship into the state from and unlicensed breeder. Other states have different requirements.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 04/30/10 08:45 PM

Well that sucks!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 05/01/10 01:21 AM

No thats not the case. Atlanta Is the biggest airport in the world! You can ship a glider there they wont deny you. It just has to be out of the state within a certian time frame I believe... It is owning the glider. I checked, I was trying to buy from Oakley... Law states the glider must ORIGINATE and be BOUGHT through a USDA licensed person. I emailed the DNR and thats what he said frown ...Isn't Pocket pets just a broker?... I've never personally seen them here... maybe thats why?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: USDA "You Must be Licensed w/ 3 or More" - 09/23/10 05:49 PM

I received information from the Western Region APHIS office. My question to his office was:

Can you please tell me what the federal regualations are regarding the possession and breeding of sugar gliders by an individual? At what point should someone be licensed by the USDA, etc.

Dean Wonsbeck, APHIS is the contact person. I received some interesting feedback.

I have his phone number and email if anyone wants to contact him directly. I'm just passing on information, not saying whether it is correct information or not, but it is directly from APHIS in writing!
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