Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders

I was looking for a discussion about this but couldn't find one.

I was hoping to start a discussion about this to see why inbreeding is bad and why it's not done in gliders.

Please add input. If speculating or hypothesizing, please STATE that. If you have scientific evidence, please cite.


Here is my understanding

I breed mice and rats. Inbreeding is done extensively to strengthen the lines and ensure you are selling PURE healthy lines.

The basis of this is, breed one pair of mice a couple times and get healthy litters,

Breed the babies back to dad and get some babies with a genetic deformity. Test with mom and get none. With that, you will KNOW that dad carries a hidden recessive trait for that deformity.

Breed the same babies back to mom and get zero genetic deformities.

Then, take those babies and breed them back to mom again. Still clear of any genetic deformities? Great, now breed them to mom one more time or go directly to breeding to each other for several generations.

Pair the male and female mice from that litter 1.1 and produce litters.


To TEST to see if any of those offspring carry that same genetic defect, breed back to the KNOWN carrier (AKA Dad).

If several litters show clean, cull those test litters and continue working with the clean line.

You've successfully eliminated a dangerous genetic deformity that out-crossing COULD have hidden for GENERATIONS AND GENERATIONS.

I've seen this done, done this type of breeding myself, and know that it works. Additionally, I believe (though I can't find the article anymore) that this is how lab rats and mice came around. They were selectively bred for large litters and elimination of genetic deformities to create pure lines to work with in a lab.



Now, I understand with mice and rats you are able to do this a lot more and a lot better due to the high production rate, where-as, with gliders, producing 4-6 babies a year or less, makes it hard.

Couple that with the reproductive age of 1 year for females and it makes it A LOT HARDER to do the same with gliders.


But, since gliders can produce for quite a few years (and have a much longer lifespan than that of a mouse or rat), you MAY be able to accomplish the same thing if you work toward it and plan things accordingly.

I have seen the kinship chart on gliders (though I don't know what scientific research was done to create that chart, so if anyone has cited experiments I'd love to see the reports on those experiments )



My concern is, how do we know there isn't some horrible genetic disease lurking in the recessives of our gliders that hasn't been expressed yet, but after years of out crossing, now every line has been exposed to this genetic disease and after years of work on a line, it pops up?

There's no guarantee that the recessive would show up first, second, or third time breeding to another WITH that recessive, but that doesn't mean it doesn't carry that gene. (look at breeding a leu to a het, you could breed them 4 times and still not get any leus, though statistically you would get 50% leus. It doesn't always happen that way!)

Now it's back to the drawing board and you need to scrap years of out-crossing in order to try something different to produce healthy animals.


Here's an experiment you can easily do at home to describe breeding hets to leus and the 50% leu baby thing.

Take a quarter. Flip it 10 times. How many heads and how many tails? was it exactly 50%? Try it 20 times, 50 times, 100 times?

I went 25 times almost all heads.

This helps people understand the recessive thing more.



ANYWAY, I know inbreeding within this community is a "NO NO" and I hope I'm not BEHEADED and thrown to the sharks for posing this question and having a slight difference of opinion, but I'd like to discuss this since I think it's important to the future of our gliders and the lines.

We have only been breeding gliders for around 20-30 years, so our knowledge of these animals is VERY little and limited. I think we have a lot to learn and posing questions like this will better help our understanding and maybe get us thinking some more.

Look at all the information we are discrediting every day on Glider Central Fact or Fiction. Look how many times the appropriate and best diet has changed.

This is a very interesting topic. In breeding many other species, line breeding is perfectly acceptable and is regularly practiced. And technically, it is done with sugar gliders all of the time. I just don't think people realize it.

You mentioned the kinship chart. Let's take a look at it HERE. The portion in RED is inbreeding. The sections in GOLD, YELLOW and BLUE are all linebreeding. We see pairs within these categories all of the time. So, I think linebreeding is misunderstood in the glider community. As for the source of this chart, please know that I didn't create it, I have reproduced it on my site with permission. I'm not sure where Jennifer obtained it, or if she created it.

Inbreeding is a bit more tricky, and IMO, should only be done by the most experienced breeders and done so in a closed-type program. (Meaning you aren't putting those inbred animals out into general population to be bred by a lesser experienced breeders.) If inexperienced breeders, or maybe I should say those with less genetic knowledge, should not even consider.

I agree with you 100% about the experienced breeders.

It takes a lot of patience and time to do something like this, not to mention tons of cage space and EXPENSE.

We have a lot of dedicated breeders here, but I don't know if anyone has ever done this and I don't know if it's because it's a "no no" or if it costs too much to do and takes too much time.

Not to mention, if anyone caught wind of something like that, they might be considered a non reputable breeder from that point forward, so I think there's a certain scare factor involved in some things.

Though again, I notice a HUGE difference in the way things are today vs the way things were several years ago as far as being afraid to come out with your own opinions.

I am quite pleased with that

When I breed my mice to eliminate issues, those mice that exhibit the issues I'm breeding out get humanely culled.

The others generally stay with me for observation so I know how they do over the course of their lives (as far as tumors/etc).

Another thing we'd have to do is cull gliders, and a lot of people would probably be upset with this as they see their gliders as their babies, rightfully so.

The issue with this is, culling is the most humane thing to do in this instance, and it's easy to do while complying with the AVMA. Furthermore, the deceased gliders could prove helpful for other studies so nothing would go to waste per say.


I would love to find out where that kinship chart came from!

I agree that it could potentially be extremely beneficial to gliders in the long run. However, it would require a ton of space and time to accomplish the goal, unfortunately.

The main problems would be: 1) What to do with deformed offspring(no one, myself included, is going to want to cull a joey...even a "special" one. I've lost tons of sleep hand-raising joeys in the past.), 2) Finances(you wouldn't want to sell any joeys for at least a few generations, so how would you recoup any of the costs?), and 3) Space(you would need to hold onto all of the offspring for many years to ensure that they don't develop issues later on).

With gliders it just seems easier to avoid inbreeding/linebreeding to decrease your odds of having recessive genetic issues popping up.

Btw, the kinship chart is a HUMAN chart. It has simply bee too copy/pasted for reference when breeding gliders.

Sorry for any typos/auto-corrections...I'm typing this all on my phone, lol.

Another thing to consider, is that gliders are marsupials, so it would be extremely easy for them to kill of any joeys that might have problems as soon as they're born. Since most breeders never actually witness the birth, they would be none the wiser. It would be easy to assume a line is clean because no issues pop up, when in reality all of the joeys with issues are simply being killed by their mom before they drop in pouch.

rats/mice have larger litters so it more likely that at least one baby will exhibit a visible defect in each litter if the parents both carry a harmful recessive gene.

Since gliders usually have only 1 or 2 joeys - a pair of gliders could breed many times before any joey exhibits a defect. Just as a pair of 100% leu het gliders could potentially have many joeys born before they actually produce a leu. (each individual joey has a 25% chance of receiving two recessive leu genes) A breeding glider pair could have many joeys and never produce one exhibiting the defect that survives to come OOP.

The use of inbreeding to identify harmful recessive genes would not be practical with gliders.

Why is it sad to cull a joey but not a cute little mouse?

Nicole, I know you breed mice as well as gliders. I don't recall if you just sell excess/unwanted animals to/in a pet store, cull, or both, but I for one would not have any issue culling a joey, as sad as it may be.

Sacrifices have to be made for the good of any species. How many rodents are culled everyday either for snake food, don't conform to standard, too many bucks, etc?

I for one find baby mice ADORABLE and so loveable and I have hand raised a litter of rats in the past who grew to thrive.

I have also hand raised several rejected joeys in the past 6 or so years.

I think the thought of "it's so cute, how can I cull it" needs to be irrelevant.

If the breeder who takes on a project such as that can't cull, then they would have no business taking on the project to begin with.

I do not believe that "no one" would be able to cull a joey.
The person taking on the project would have to NOT be in it for any money (not even money in which to re-coop costs).

I know that I personally can give all my gliders away free and still afford to keep or breed them no problem. I have a vet reserve in a savings account just in case of emergencies, and we make enough money from our jobs to support all of our animals without needing to breed.

I personally think that if you NEED to sell a joey in order to care for your gliders, you shouldn't be breeding gliders in the first place (maybe not even keeping them). The day I NEED to sell an animal to afford to keep them is the day I stop breeding and reduce my workload.


As far as the kinship chart being originally made for humans, how do we even know that gliders are similar enough to us humans that they follow the same chart?

If you were to pull that out and use that for mice or rats, that would not be relevant.

Inbreeding for humans is obviously no good for many reasons including ethical and moral reasons. I can see that chart being of use for that.





Nicole, I do find the point about mothers pulling joeys to be interesting.

But baby mice are sometimes culled by their mothers and eaten when they have issues, right at birth. You wouldn't know if 1/2 the litter was culled by mom or not if you didn't witness her giving birth, which a lot of mouse moms don't appreciate either.

And Candy, I also agree that it could be many breedings before a defective observation may be seen, which is why something like this would have to be done by someone with patience, money, space, and who can keep excellent records.

I don't know that they would be able to hide a defect through 6 years of breeding (approx 24 babies), but that's possible.

Has anyone gone through 24 babies out of a leu X het pair and not gotten a leu (or even a leu het X leu het)?

It's not for the faint of heart, but the information from such an "experiment" would be invaluable to the glider community as a whole, especially since gliders have only really been bred 20-30 years so far.

There may be a lot of information to gain from such research that we just don’t know about yet!



This is all so interesting!!!!


I'm glad this discussion is ongoing.

As you know, I breed mice too...it's hard for me to cull baby mice, but I do it knowing that the other babies will be better off because of it and it will help keep mom from being over-worked. Culling a baby joey would be purely selfish, imo. If it has a deformity, but is still able to live a relatively normal life, then there's no justification in culling them except to save yourself the time and trouble of dealing with them.

My extra mice get adopted out or culled(and sold as frozen feeders later on), depending on the situation.

Please keep in mind that I have a glider that was born with health issues(a "Wiggle baby"). If she were a mouse I'd put her down without a second thought, but she's not...she's a precious little glider whom I love and spoil, despite her issues.

I love my mice and my gliders, but mice live such short lives anyways, so I don't get very attached to them. Gliders live 10-20 years and have big personalities. I can't help but to be attached to them from day 1. I would never be able to cull a joey. I would fight to the last second to save it's precious little life.

The kinship chart works for any species. A first cousin is still a first cousin, no matter whether you're a mouse, a human, or a fish, lol

I feel the opposite than you do. I think that keeping a deformed glider who would not be able to function properly is selfish as opposed to humanely euthanizing such animal.


Even if the glider could live a "fairly" normal life, I think that time and resources would be better spent on a glider in need of a home (or researching and determining if there are hidden deformities in the lines) than keeping a deformed glider alive because you thought it was cute.

As far as mice, you cull them later in life as well. You don't see mice and gliders on the same level as far as cuteness and "worth". That's fine but some people feel the same about mice as you do about gliders. (that comes across snippy but it's DEFINITELY not supposed to)


Everyone I'm sure has a different opinion on it but that's where I stand.

You would not be a good candidate for breeding research such as that because of your stance on culling gliders and that is perfectly fine Everyone will have a different opinion.

I'm pretty sure no one here will be up for culling joeys, lol. Half of the forum is made up of posts about people with joeys(or adults) that have health issues and they're doing everything they can to save that glider.

I'm one of the few people here who fully understands, appreciates, and supports what you're suggesting. I think that inbreeding can be a great tool in improving animals. However, because of the nature of gliders and the fact that they're slow-breeding marsupials, I just don't see it ever working out.

I've had this same discussion with multiple breeders saying how I wish we COULD inbreed gliders to help eliminate potential genetic problems since it's an issue that is close to my heart(because of my Wiggle babies), but in the end the conclusion is always the same, no matter which way we look at it. :/

Has anyone tried to dedicate time and money towards this?

Potentially just giving it a try?

Gosh I guess I'm the only heartless one here who could cull a joey if need be(lol).

This in itself could turn into a hot topic. You are definitely in the minority. I don't believe there are many who make a fortune selling gliders, but breeders strive to at least break even, with the cost of buying breeders, cages, food, toys, pouches, vet care, etc. There are breeders who need to sell a joey to pay the rent or fix their car. Does that make them a bad breeder? In most cases, I don't think so.

Here is my tally to-date:
Expenses - conservative estimate $10,000
Income - $200 for the one joey I sold 2 years ago
Net loss - $9800...

I don't think there has ever been anyone that has tried what you are suggesting. And to be honest, I don't know many people that would try it. Furthermore, I think that we would be further ahead to work on genetic testing and utilizing necropsies.

And I fully agree with Nancy, it doesn't make anyone a bad breeder if you NEED to sell joeys. Whether you NEED to sell joeys to care for your gliders, to continue a breeding program, pay rent, buy food...is absolutely no one's business. It's completely irrelevant what I either need to, or choose to spend "joey income" on as long as my gliders are well cared for and have proper veterinary care.

I didn't mean to set off a hot topic here.

That's just my opinion. Same goes for my dogs.
They are my pets and for me, personally, I need to be able to comfortably afford my pets before making the decision to breed.

I would be afraid to rely on breeding as a source of income to pay my mortgage, electric, etc because it's such a variable thing. Maybe they won't produce for a year, maybe not for a year and 1/2. I need to be able to afford to pay my bills regardless of if they breed or not.
But then if you make a business out of breeding, you do need to make money for other reasons as well.


Again, just the way I handle my pets. Everyone is different I'm sure.


I'm also not 100% sure anyone who has tried this would come out and admit it even if they have.

But I do see the issues with trying such things.

The thought of culling joeys makes my heart ache. You can't really say that it is justifiable because "a mouse is cute, a glider is cute, therefore the two are equal and both can be culled." This is just not the way we as people think. We love our dogs but eat chickens; we make a pet of a cat but a meal of a pig. It's apples to oranges. Yes, dogs and cats and chickens and pigs are all animals (and all are arguably adorable) but each species of animal has a clearly defined role in our society and culture and not many are comfortable with those animals outside of said roles.

(All of this is for the sake of argument. Personally I cannot and would not ever be able to cull ANY animal, and I am vegetarian. So yes, I am one of the types that is not "fit for the job," as you say.)

no but you're fit for guiding me in how to eat healthier!! LMAO. I'm sure you're thin and healthy. I don't know if I could ever be a vegetarian but I'd sure like to eat healthier. I'm assuming brownies at night isn't the way to go ;P

What do you mean? Brownies at night are perfect!

Oh okay!! Well in that case the last few nights I've been a GOOD GIRL... BF just brought me home a new box since we'll probably be snowed in tomorrow YAY Go Brownies <3

Where do i signup?

Sorry, but you walked right in to that one!

Okay I am new to the glider community, only having gotten mine two months ago. So please take my opinion as just that my opinion. I have no intention of ever breeding, I don't have the skill or knowledge and even if I did its not something I personally would be interested in. I am an animal lover. I love dogs, I'm highly allergic to cats and cannot love them the way I would wish to, I have no problems with snakes, rats, hamsters, or any other creature. Except spiders, I am not overly fond of them. The serve a purpose and I am fine with said purpose but they can stay away from me. There are only four creatures, ( all insect) I have found I could kill with no problem. Flies, Mosquitos, meal worms and earth worms.

My whole problem with the above reasoning is you are talking about " culling" animals who are unworthy of living. For whatever reason. By your reasoning it's all right to cull an animal who has a genetic anomaly. So would you be alright with culling humanity, or dogs, or other animals. What gave you or anyone the right to make that decision on who lives or who dies for the pleasure of breeding the perfect line. Sure gliders, mice, rats, any animal can have genetic defects. Humans have them as well. I'm not driving at making this conversation into an ethical debate on life or death.
I will say its a proven fact that many species who have tried interbreeding have found some serious genetic problems because the genetics of the two are so close together. A brother and sister will have the same genetic markers to a degree, if you breed groups of brothers and sister for long enough you will find that genetic diversity is erased and the same genetic code will develop. What happens if that particular genetic sequence has a week ness to say a particular flu virus, if that strain is not exposed to that virus then you never know. Until it happens. Then you lose the entire genetic code and it's kaputs. Marsupials and mammals have similar markup so I'm pretty sure it holds true for most of them.
Genetic diversity is important to evolution. You take that away an a person or animal will never get any better.
That's why it's so dangerous when an animal becomes endangered. Once they hit a certain point there is no saving a species because there isn't enough animals to sustain the population and keep it going.

So aside from my aversion to culling any animal, they all have a right to live,
And aside from my aversion to destroying a species genetic diversity,
We made these fine animals into pets, they didn't ask to be kept as pets but mankind chose to make them pets. We have altered there intended purpose sure,
But it's our responsibility to take care of them and care for them. We don't cull dogs for genetic deformities. We care for them and love them for there diverse personalities.

Like I said this is my opinion and my opinion only, I would not " cull a Joey just because of a genetic deformity. We don't do it to people yet, someone tried long ago to do this and he was attacked and stopped. Why choose to do it to a animal. They can't stand up and tell you not to but that doesn't mean we have the right to.
I eat meat, I love beef, we breed them for that purpose. We breed gliders for our pleasure.

Just my opinion

I haven't heard of a mouse bonding to a person, the way a glider does. I have always had mice around but the difference is they were always pests, and thats why we always had at least one cat. I love animals, always have, but when I tried to "rescue" two mice from my fathers sticky trap (as a child) I put them in a cage and one ate the other one... I didn't like mice anymore. Then as a young adult trying to make out on my own and a family of mice destroy all of my food in the pantry when all thats left is the cans, they will always be pests. Sugar gliders however are never pests, they are part of the family, like my kids, my dog and cat. I couldn't see culling a part of my family because something was "wrong" withh them.

Testing on mice is widely accepted, whereas testing on dogs, cats, other pet like animals is not. Maybe I'm wrong and I just see it that way.

I would rather do dna tests to see potential recessive defects then breed it out, killing and inbreeding. The cost would probably even out and I would think a mouth swab/blood drawn would be better for the animal then years of breeding/inbreeding, emotional stress of changing partners, who knows what else. I am just voicing my opinion. Not downing anyone elses.



Now that I have ranted, GliderFun, I would love to sign up for the joey giveaway too!

That was a very good post Andrew. However, I wanted to comment on one thing you said.

Unfortunately, large breeders do cull. It wasn't too long ago that if a chocolate lab was born, they would drown the puppies because that wasn't a recognized color, it was a defect. Once people started to desire that color, and the AKC acknowledged it as a color, the became very popular and were very expensive at the start.

Not saying I agree with it in any way, just that it really does happen.


To us, this is absolutely true. However, as the mice that you are (IMO rightfully) calling pests, in nature in Australia, sugar gliders are pests to them.

Okay I stand corrected about the dogs, it's not normal and if they get caught doing that then they get into trouble for it. It's cruel and horrible that they would do that. Kinda sickens me a little bit. But like I said I love animals, I would prefer if they where not culled or killed or destroyed for any reason. I will admit there are times when it is not avoidable. Last year we had to put down one of our puppies, she was 3 and one of the most adorable and loving dogs. Beagle Labradors mix. She developed renal failure and it was either pay 2000 dollars for a procedure that was not garunteed to work, or put her to sleep. She was in pain, dying with no chance. So we put her to sleep and my family cried. In that instance the yes, it's an act of kindness. Culling a Joey for a genetic defect when that glider is fully capable of living a full and good life is cruel and mankind trying to play god.
Again it's just my opinion. Everyone is entitled to there own and I respect that.

I definitely don’t want to get in a ethics debate because I’m sure my views on several subjects differ GREATLY from the general public.

“interbreeding have found some serious genetic problems because the genetics of the two are so close together”
Correct, when you breed closely it brings out hidden recessives that the animal carries already in their genetics.

I’m unsure if the suggestion you are making about susceptibility to Flu would be a valid concern. I’m not experienced enough to know this but I’m curious about it.
What I’m discussing is a proven method with rodents and I’ve never heard of your Flu analogy. I’ll have to check with some people and see what they say. I’m very curious now.


As far as killing dogs, we kill dogs every day. We put dogs to sleep because they are born with wobblers, swimmers syndrome, and other genetic diseases. It’s in the best interest of the animal to not allow them to live. This is common practice.

I doubt you’d be able to get a dog breeder to admit they cull from birth but some do when they have puppies born with genetic deformities (some use methods that are not to my liking).

We also murder dogs and cats by the millions because nobody wants them and they are over bred. They weren’t bred to be killed. If anything is sad, that is very sad.
Horses are now legal to eat in the US. They weren’t bred for that either. The law just passed about a year ago?

And as far as them not being able to tell us “no” for the killing, we make decisions for our animals every day. Some people believe forcing animals to breed and have litter after litter in captivity is also cruel and inhumane. They can’t tell us “no, stop, I’m physically tired and it’s killing me and sucking the nutrients out of me”. They can’t tell us if they WANT to be parents (with the exception of moms who cull their own offspring).
Just another thing to think about


As far as cows, I LOVE BEEF Yumm.
Especially Kobe, which are massaged and fed beer! Sooo Delish!

I do see and understand your opinion.

KB, mice bond with people all the time. Mice and rats can be taught to do tricks (roll over, fetch, etc), run obstacle courses, and bond very closely with their people. They will stay on your person just like a glider. I’m assuming you just haven’t experienced this.
Rats and mice are EXTREMELY intelligent. I’m thinking more intelligent than gliders (speculating).

I’ve had issues with wild rodents as well, btw. Valentines day. My boyfriend told me he’d come back from his business trip to see me and I placed rose peddles everywhere, spent 2 hours drawing a valentines day card, rushed from class to be home to see his face.

I got a call from him that he was not going to be there. I sat on the kitchen floor in tears. That’s when I heard it. Munch Munch Munch.
There were hundreds of them under my counters IN my bag of rice, that we were STILL EATING from the top of the bag, while they were eating from the bottom.


Just what I needed. We got a cat and never saw them again.
I don’t hold a grudge against a whole species because of some wild rodents. ;-)


I’m pretty sure gliders will eat each other when one dies as well. I think I’ve even heard about this. I think its a survival thing but not certain. Heck, even fish will!


As far as sugar gliders being pests, I’m not certain. Here we have flying squirrels as pests that get into our attic and chew wires.

Do you know if sugar gliders are pests in their native areas?

Large exotic birds, cockatoos, etc are PESTS to farmers in their native lands and they kill them! Here they are pets.




BTW ARE WE ALLOWED TO POST YOUTUBE VIDEOS IN HERE??? Let me know and I’ll post some examples of rodents doing tricks.


Everyone is entitled to feel differently about different subjects.

Animal testing is a harsh reality, but it’s through animal testing that we come up with cures for horrible diseases that devastate the world. I don’t see anything wrong with using dogs and cats for testing if that would speed up the release of an important drug to cure HIV, or Cancer, or anything else people suffer and die from on a day to day basis.

Speaking of animal testing and humans, don’t they still test on chimps. Those animals are a 98% match to humans!

Also, coming up with genetic tests for gliders, does anyone know how much it would cost to just COME UP with the tests? They don't exist currently (speculating), so they would have to be created. Will those test be able to tell us what recessives the animal is carrying?

I believe so as in Newfoundland dogs there is a coat test for recessive coat types BUT, you would have to know about the recessives you are testing for (I believe). If we don't know what recessive diseases gliders could be carrying, how can we test for it?

I'm curious about all of this!

Damn I should have been a geneticist!


Just food for thought :-)


As far as free gliders. I won’t be handing any of those out Just because I don’t HAVE TO make money on my gliders doesn’t mean I don’t WANT TO ;-)


Hearing all these difference of opinions is great!! How exciting!!!

Holy post. I'm sure I rambled a bunch *head desk*

Well as far as the flu analogy goes look at it this way. Look at the statistics for military boot camps. Something like 70% or greater of recruits get sick from cold or flu like symptoms. The reason, a person from California has developed an immunity to allot of the viruses and bugs in there area. You go to a new area, say north Carolina for vacation, or say boot camp, parris island. Your body has no immunity to the viruses in that area. So you get sick, now add in another 100 people all from differ ant areas carrying there areas viruses.....you guessed it, you get sick, in cape may new jersey they called it the cape may crud. For three of the eight weeks people are there for training they are sick...think war of the worlds.....

So look at gliders, by inbreeding and cutting the genetic code your not only reducing bad genes, deformities and all, but you also run a real risk of breeding out immunities and or positive genetic traits. You keep breeding brown eyed people and soon you will only have brown eyed people. Genetic mutation can also occur that with out a way to look at it could go undetected. So say you breed ten generations. You now theoretically have perfect genetic gliders, only there was an underlying genetic anomaly that pops up and kills the gliders, you then have gone through how much time, money and effort.
Again this is all based on my understanding of genetics and could very well be inaccurate as I am not a genetic expert in any way. The part about boot camp is true and is what the doctors told the recruits was the cause of there sickness.

So ethics aside, or the right or wrong aside, if you could do it I think that the cost, the risk of underlying problems and the breeding out of certain traits through the inbreeding would make it impractical for such a thing.

As for the ethical part, you are correct, gliders cannot tell us to stop breeding them. It's instinct in them. You put two of them in a cage, maybe set up some mood lighting and some soft music and watch..not literally the magic happen. You however do not make them mate, they have to do that on there own. Killing there own, again it's something every animal does including we humans. A mother killing a Joey falls more into natural selection and the instincts of a mother. Us ( humans ) killing an animal is a little different. That is not natural selection, that is us choosing who lives and who dies.

Animals that are bred for food are a little different. We are in fact omnivores, we eat meet and fruits and veggies and in parts of the world they eat some weird things. Well weird to Americans. I'm sure there are things we Americans eat where other cultures are repulsed by.
Again most of this is my logic, there is no garuntee it's accurate or right for everyone.
Personally.....I've fallen in love with dogs, and sugar gliders and I hate to think about anything hurting a dog and now sugar gliders. Especially a small little one that cannot even bite you to tell ya to stop

I get it!! Makes perfect sense. They also tell you to eat local honey from the area you’re living to help with allergies.

If immunities are learned from environment, how would we breed those out?

Are those leaned immunities?

It wouldn’t be genetic at that point, it would be your bodies memory to the disease/flu/etc and mounting an immunity to it (similar to how vaccines work, you get the vaccine and when exposed to the bug, your body reacts like it remembers).

And yes, you could breed out positive genetic traits, which is why you must selectively breed for positive traits and breed away from negative traits.

This task wouldn’t be easy and would take a lot of time. It wouldn’t be an overnight thing.

Unless the “bad genes” are LINKED to a certain “good gene” you want to keep, you should be able to accomplish breeding out bad, and breeding good.

(there is an argument that aggressive tendencies and "wolf like" personalities are linked to the appearance genes for wolves which means you can't breed a "wolf look alike" without breeding the personality traits along with it, which is why wolfdogs are illegal in some places. Don't know how true that is or how much I believe it, but the argument is there)

A genetic mutation, doesn’t that happen with an INDIVIDUAL and not to a WHOLE group (IE turtles with two heads)? Or am I thinking spontaneous mutation?

Wouldn’t we notice a mutation during the breeding process and be able to make adjustments?

We're not going to cull every glider in the world and then start inbreeding a single group.

You would start with one group of gliders and spend years working towards the perfect glider.

That "perfect glider" would only be ONE of the lines out there as everyone isn't going to just stop breeding until you're done with your purified line.

Just how there are lab strains of mice and rats (purified lines) and there are pet strains. Hundreds of lines.

So I don't think the risk of gliders being extinct due to a single mutation or people only being able to have one line is a real risk.

Again, this isn't an overnight thing. It will take YEARS upon years to perfect through selective breeding and holding back many gliders. It's a daunting task, which is another reason why it's not done (enter the whole conversation about how gliders don't breed often, small litters, etc)


(lol on the mood lighting!)


Yes, it’s instinct to breed to procreate to continue the species, but we are the ones who put them in cages together TO breed.

How do we know there aren't MANY females in a colony so 1/2 get a break while the other 1/2 breed. If we keep them in pairs, we FORCE the female to have baby after baby when she wouldn't be doing that in the wild (all speculation but seems to make sense).

We also decide to cut the testicles OFF our male gliders, cut the testicles off the male dogs, rip the ovaries and uterus out of female dogs. Those are some drastic things we do and we decide this for our dogs. (I don't want to get into the merits of spay/neutering right now)

We kill dogs every day for no other reason than there isn’t enough room for them. Yet people keep indiscriminately breeding dogs.

As far as hurting the gliders, there would be no pain involved in culling though I think I understand your point.


I find the thing about the camp fascinating. I don’t know how they can train being sick. I’m a wimp!

Getting yelled at can in fact be a huge motivator towards training while sick,,,lol,,,

It would take years to accomplish, and I can agree with taking a beautiful female glider and a robust, handsome male glider and breeding them, we do it with people, dogs cats, pretty much anything. Wich makes sense, good genes make for good gliders right, I am not convinced of the inbreeding aspect though. I think there is to much chance for genetic problems in that sense.

As for the culling, that is a problem for me. I just don't like the thought of a poor glider being killed because it has a problem. We don't do it to people, we shouldn't do it to other animals.

As for the neutering and spaying we do that to ourselves as well as to animals as a form of birth control. Personally I think we should do that to humans( making them get fixed) you know, a guy with four kids, doesn't take care of them, doesn't pay child support, ...ther ya go buddy your snipped no more for you, woman if you have four kids from four different guys, no clue who the dad is for two of them, never been married living on welfare.....fixed.....that would save some problems, ( sorry if I offended anyone with that comment) we do it with pets for a number of reasons and I admit it's not always with the pets consent. However there is a difference between medical treatment and "culling" for a genetic or medical problem.

I love my glider, beau is an awesome little guy who has had a rough time. I am getting two more gliders whom are rescues as well. And I feel I can take care of them and give them all a good life. What I don't think is that I could breed them. I'm not that knowledgable with gliders.

As for the genes well a mother can pass on immunities to a child, or illness, so I'm assuming a glider can as well. If thats the case then it would be possible to breed a immunity out, or certain traits. Maybe the trait you accidentally breeder out was a good one. I don't know how many gliders are in the united states for breeding purposes, but genetic diversity it what helps to make each of us, and each glider, dog, cat, distinctly different. Sure there are similarities but we are all different. Wouldn't interbreeding That out to a degree in certain lines? Like I said these are just my opinions.

I just don't see where interbreeding would be a good thing. I honestly can't say anything scientifically related to this. I just don't know enough

Just out of curiosity, what would you see as bad traits that you would try to breed out? I'm sure physical deformities and health issues, but health issues are not something you would necessarily see at birth.

And what good traits would you be breeding for?

As with horses, dogs, goats, etc., there are breed standards, there aren't for gliders. So if, for example, a dairy goat was producing kids with extra teats, that is a fault. You would stop breeding that female. If you want to improve the length of the loin on a Boer goat, you breed it with a more muscular boer goat with a long loin and short twist. Want to improve the milk production in a Boer goat, cross it with a dairy goat. (Yes, I bred goats for several years. )

What would we "look" for in sugar gliders? Right now, all we have is coat color, temperament (which is debatable of what is inherited vs. learned), production rate, life span (which has a lot of environmental factors to consider). Even though we know that some of the WF gliders tend to be heavier gliders, you don't see that until they reach maturity or later in adulthood. So how would you know a particular pair would pass that trait until it's older and has likely reproduced themselves?

Yes, as long as it complies with Rule 7.

Lets see sugar gliders do this (play basketball, skateboard, do tricks). If someone can show me a video of that I'll eat my tie (and by tie I mean more brownies)



(please look in community hall to find the videos that go along with this discussion and then come back to this forum and post your replies so the discussion doesn't get split, I don't know else to "legally" do it, sorry for the inconvenience) ;-)

...

I sent you a PM about videos.

Ok, I stand corrected in a few areas. I know that mice are a big problem in Australia, ruining crops when they get over populated, I was unaware of Sugar gliders being pests.

I still don't like mice or rats as pets or pests in my house. I have had a friend that had a pet rat, I understand that some people have a connection and love them but for me, My views of them as pets are ruined. Some people have insects such as cockroaches as pets. It's just not a path I will choose.

The little parakeets are pests in their native country, I saw a documentary on them, the sky is full of them. Crazy to think about.

Very enlightening thread.

I don't think line breeding will fly in glider community, but thats my opinion.

It could be a very useful tool, especially since so little is still known about genetics in gliders. The problems just start coming in where cost and time are concerned. There are so few people out there who would have the facility and the funds, let alone the time to dedicate to a project like that. It's been done in larger species like dogs and horses because they can bring in so much more income and entire industries are built around them, but wow, think of the possibilities of what we could learn.

HAH I didn't know the thing about parrotkeets. WOW I can't imagine that

I didn't realize you weren't in the US

Yeah, I know people with roaches as pets. I have dubias and hissers but I think they are so gross but neat as long as I don't have to touch them. Ick. I think I have them only to help get myself over my great dislike for bugs. What better bug to have than a roach.

ew
ew
ew

I agree, it may be hard to get the glider community on board with the idea, but with so many more people double thinking the old "norms" as it pertains to gliders, I don't see it as being too out of the question.

And yeah, it'd take a lot of time, money, and dedication but could open us up to a world of new information

I have friend who keeps at least a dozen spiders and scorpions as pets, so it just goes to show that all of us have our own ideas of "Cute and cuddly."

But when I hit the lottery I'll start a genetics research project....then maybe my parents will be happy that I'm finally using my biology degree

I am in the US... I am in Tennessee.