GliderCENTRAL

White Tip Genetics

Posted By: Anonymous

White Tip Genetics - 03/01/09 04:42 PM

I am just wondering if any of the breeders that are trying to figure out the white tip genetics are having any luck pinpointing how the white tip is actually expressed??

I have 2 little white tip babies that have come along from my white tip, and white tip het... but they've had about 8 babies that were normal before these guys. Is it just that sporadic? Or are the breeders working on it getting any closer to figuring out how it happens?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/01/09 06:20 PM

I was wondering the same thing...
I have a male that is a white tip het and he through some babies with white tips whose mom was a supposed standard grey. It all seems confusing to me...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/01/09 06:28 PM

I have a pair of wt and wf wt het they have had 6 babies 2 have been wts
Everytime they have a single and they were wt...
Posted By: reeny

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/01/09 06:47 PM

I don't know about the genetics part but I am looking for a WT male if it is also a WF that would be even better.

I would love to learn the genetics.
Posted By: queenduck

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/01/09 07:39 PM

Matchmaker has done the most research on wt's, I have sent her all my lineages.

Out of my wt to wt pair, they have had about 50 % wt's.

Out of my wfb wthet pair (each had one parent with a wt) they have had no wt's.

I have sold wt hets that have gone on to make wt's (see KDR right above me).

At my house the only ones making wt's is my 2nd generation wt female and her mate, a 1st generation wt but he did have a grandfather that was a wt.

Anyhow, I encourage everyone to send their information to Matchmakermagic Kinue, she has been keeping tract of a lot of it.
Posted By: gliderlover

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/01/09 08:17 PM

I have a quad of a wf/wt het male in with a wt het and 2 possible wt hets. They have each had 2 joeys each and only one of the possible wt hets gave me a wf/wt that had a few hairs. But he didn't make it. They have more babies ip so we will see if I get anymore wts. I also had another pair of wt hets that had 4 joeys none were wt. The male went to produce a wt with a wt.
Posted By: gliderma

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/01/09 08:26 PM

My first pair came to me with a BB in pouch. Dad is a WT. They have had 3 joey's, all female and no WT. I am very interested in the genetics and possibilities too!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/01/09 08:54 PM

That's interesting statistics!

I'll have to get pics of these 2 boys when they come oop and post them for sale. Hopefully they'll contribute to someone's WT breeding program.

Does anyone know about creating a "super" WT? Like the WFB's? I wonder if this would be a possibility.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/01/09 09:10 PM

Bec, you know those babies want to come live with me...

I have had various set ups with my Wt's... I've bred WT to WT, WT to WF, and WT to normal. I have have never once produced a WT joey though. I have had joeys from some of my WT's go on to produce WT babies though.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/01/09 09:17 PM

I have a 2nd gen wf paired with a 1st gen wf and they produced a wt.
Mom (the 1st gen wf) has a short tip so i dunno if by chance she would have been wt. Her mom nibbled while she was ip.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/01/09 09:49 PM

I have a WT pair(both WTs) that have 2 joeys IP right now. They've bred once before and had a gray. Before I got them the female had also been paired with a leu and when paired with a leu she had 4 joeys: a WT, a superlight gray, and 2 grays.

WT


Superlight gray(probably from the father, who was a possible platinum het)


The 2 joeys IP are due out any day, so I'll let you know what they have...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/01/09 10:04 PM

Leyna-- I tried to PM you, but it said you're over your limit. =) I know you have a bunch...

Guerita-- Yes! let us know what the babies are when they come oop! Hopefully some little white tips!
Posted By: 1daddyglider1

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/01/09 11:13 PM

Bec the two white tip glider and het that I got from you has had babies four times. Each double babies one has been a white tip and one a het. The two singles were one white tip, and one het.
So 50%.
Art
Posted By: Srlb

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/02/09 02:58 AM

Has anyone had a chance to see Priscillas gorgeous Banded White Tip gliders?

Maybe someone could email Tyler and get him to post a pic or two of them.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/02/09 08:24 AM

Peggy!!!!!!!! I have a banded wt too! but mine is different then hers
Posted By: Sheila

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/02/09 09:23 AM

I always treat white tips as hets even though they have the white tails. With that in mind out of ten babies you had two. I am more suspecting that it is the way the genes line up that give the white tail because it is too inconsistent.
Posted By: krysKritters

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/02/09 03:57 PM

I have a trio consisting of sisters, Eclipse (WT) & Stardust (WF/WT het) and thier mate, Comet (WF Champagne)

So far, both females produced 2 joeys each but only 1 of the 4 was a WT.

Both girls also have 2 joeys each ip.

Also, Eclipse has a very large white tip but the 1 wt joey had a very small white tip.

I expect Stardust's joeys oop this month & Eclipse a few weeks after that, so we will see....
Posted By: tbull

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/02/09 07:14 PM

I have a WT het male (he is a normal out of two WT parents) that is paired with a CG female, out of 2 sets of twins, one each had a WT. Both boys, one was a few hairs while the other was a large tip. The two girls were normals.
He is neutered now, got to aggressive while mating, I do not tolerate mating wounds frown once could be an accident, twice and it's the big snip!
But I also have his sister who has a huge WT. She has not had any joeys yet, but was mating last night. So maybe........ grin
Posted By: Lynsie

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/02/09 10:06 PM

I have a WT paired to a WF/WT and so far 2 out of 6 have had WT's. One WT was fairly big and the most recent one is really small.
Posted By: gliderboy4life

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 02:13 AM

At Priscillas there is one WT/WT pair. They have produced 4 HUGE WT's, a banded WT, and 3 normals.

One of the above joeys that has a HUGE WT has produced 4 HUGE WT's and 2 normals. She is paired with a very small WT.

THe banded WT just had her first babies with a WF/WT and she had a normal and a WF/ HUGE WT male.

This seems to be a VERY strong line.

I will get pics for everyone!
Posted By: Laurens_Babies

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 03:32 AM

Yup Pricilla has a very strong WT line going. My Constanze is from P. I have her paired up with a WF. 2 joeys born both standards, 2 more IP see what happens laugh Even though I'm honestly only expecting WF/WT hets but you never know.


Description: Picture doesn't really show how nice of a WT she has but its about 3/4 an inch long.
Attached picture Tipette004-1.jpg
Posted By: Judie

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 05:42 AM

Breeding White Tipped Gliders is like breeding for Leucistic. Gene responsible is simple recessive.
Posted By: Lynsie

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 06:14 AM

How is that when WT's have been produced from only one WT or WT het parent? Or in some cases from 2 normals with no history of WT?
Posted By: Laurens_Babies

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 06:41 AM

Yup sorry Judie I have to disagree with you. I think chances are way higher with two WT background parents. But this seems to be one gene we can't put our fingers on for sure.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 08:15 AM

Judie, WT cant be simple recessive, because WTs have been paired to WTs many times and only some produce WTs... Others never do.
Posted By: Judie

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 05:38 PM

Leyna, are you talking about White Tip x White Tip or White Tip x White Tip Het?
Posted By: gliderboy4life

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 05:40 PM

WT x WT does not give you 100% Wt's. Thus the gene cannot be simple recessive.
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 06:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Judie
Breeding White Tipped Gliders is like breeding for Leucistic. Gene responsible is simple recessive.


I disagree.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 07:00 PM

Judie, I'm talking WT to WT. I have had 3 WT/WT pairs that had about a dozen joeys between the 3 of them. Not one of those joeys was a WT.
Posted By: Laurens_Babies

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 07:05 PM

Wow Lenya. Just curious but did any of the joeys parent WT joeys?
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 07:14 PM

Originally Posted By: gliderboy4life
At Priscillas there is one WT/WT pair. They have produced 4 HUGE WT's, a banded WT, and 3 normals.

One of the above joeys that has a HUGE WT has produced 4 HUGE WT's and 2 normals. She is paired with a very small WT.

THe banded WT just had her first babies with a WF/WT and she had a normal and a WF/ HUGE WT male.

This seems to be a VERY strong line.

I will get pics for everyone!


Which pair is this?
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 07:28 PM

Im thinking its probably X-linked recessive after all the lineages I've looked at.
Posted By: gliderlover

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 08:04 PM

I think he is talking about luke and lupe and their joey larkin. Here is larkin's linage http://www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/dog.php?id=268
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 08:08 PM

Lauren, the bulk of those babies went to pet homes... 2 went to breeding homes, 1 did produce a WT, the other I am unsure of because the own went MIA frown I also kept a few, but only ever bred one of them... And he has only had normals for me.
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/03/09 09:03 PM

Originally Posted By: gliderlover
I think he is talking about luke and lupe and their joey larkin. Here is larkin's linage http://www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/dog.php?id=268

That is an impressive WT, but my issue has been with some of the WT lines is they are often bred back into their own lines like Larkin/Linus for example. They produced a WT (Lane) but now his maternal grandmother and paternal grandfather share the same parents? I dont see the reason for going back into the same line that closely.

And take a look at Linus' lineage.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/04/09 06:38 AM

CALLING ALL WT EXPERTS!

Does the tail on the left look like it might be a "microscopic WT"? lol

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u67/Tortiebaby/other/newpictures176-2.jpg

I've never seen the tail-tip of a WT joey before, so I'm not sure if it is or not. I THOUGHT it was a gray, but the more I look at the pic, the more it looks like the tip of that tail could possibly be a really teensy WT, but it's too early to tell.

Watcha think? Am I seeing things(like usual, haha)?
Posted By: SweetGliders

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/04/09 09:36 AM

Here's a picture of one of my white tip joeys. Neither parent has White Tips.

Anita heart




Description: Baby Twilight one of my WFB WT joeys.
Attached picture P6120002saa.JPG
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/04/09 04:54 PM

My white tipped boys are oop now too... so you can see their tails on my website...

just click on the link in my signature!
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/04/09 06:38 PM

Nicole, I am not a WT "expert" but I do not see a WT on either joey. Thatís not to say any white hairs may grow in at some point (I personally donít consider a few hairs a full WT, but thatís me). If tip skin isn't white (pink) then itís a good indicator that the tip fur will not be very white. Here are pics of my smaller and larger WT's on my WF/WT twin joeys when they were still IP and then where they fluffed out so you can see the amount of pink that turned into WT.




Description: Chiquita (Small Tip) IP
Attached picture Chiquita IP.jpg

Description: Phoenix (Larger Tip) IP
Attached picture Phoenix IP.jpg

Description: Phoenix (Larger Tip) Fluffed out
Attached picture Phoenix.jpg

Description: Chiquita (Small Tip) all Fluffed out
Attached picture Chiquita.jpg
Posted By: Lynsie

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/04/09 08:37 PM

Nicole, I do not think that joey is a WT. This is a pic of my WT/WT joey right before he came OOP:



and his tip now:


As you can see, even if the joey is only going to have a few hairs, you can still tell before it's furred up.

You can see more pics of my WT's and thier joeys here: http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c163/LuckyYouGliders/Caspian%20and%20Madalyn/
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/04/09 09:51 PM

Well, I checked on the joeys and there was 1, yes, just 1, lol, white hair. roflmao

The tails aren't furred up yet, just have a few stray hairs here and there, so I'm hoping the joey gets a few more hairs...
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/04/09 11:12 PM

Yea I dont think one stray white hair counts as a WT tail.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/06/09 09:35 PM

Well, I just re-checked and the joey now has a few white hairs(probably no more then 5, they're too tiny to count)!!! grin

So, now we've got a 2nd generation WT!!! Woot! I've dubbed him a "Micro WT", lol.

I'm so excited!!! dance

Sooo...Adore has had a total of 8 joeys. 4 with a leu(1 WT) and 4 with a WT(1 WT). Hope all that helps you study! smile
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/07/09 12:03 AM

I took another look at those photo's Nicole. And I really believe for a WT to be a real WT there needs to be pink skin at the tip, like all the pics posted after yours. Some white hairs when there was no pink doesn't make for a WT in my book. Any glider can have a few white hairs I've found in my research. Its pretty common actually.

What do other WT breeders consider the "few" hair WT's to be?
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/07/09 03:55 AM

Well, if you look at Becca's little joey I'd say he probably doesn't have more then 10(if even that many) white hairs and she says in the ad that his father only has 7 white hairs. Soooo...at what point do you draw the line??? Is 5 white hairs a WT, but 4 isn't???

As has been seen, tiny WTs can produce big WTs and visa versa. So, the # of hairs doesn't matter, if there are white hairs, then it's a WT. If not, then it ain't...

Also, I'm sure that by the time the joey's all furred up he'll have more white hairs. wink
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/07/09 04:49 AM

I wouldn't call myself a WT breeder, I just have the 1 white tip pair, that is actually being adopted into a white tip breeding program. Anyhow...

I know that a lot of people don't consider "a few hairs" to be a white tip, and yet, it seems fairly evident that it can be reproduced FROM the glider with only a few hairs for a white tip.

It's obviously a gene that creates it. There are few instances where fur will grow back a different color after an injury... so that wouldn't be due to genes, but rather, just an accident. ie.-- Joeys tails nipped while IP will come oop with a pink tip to their tail, which is actually just scar tissue, and not a true white tip. The genetic causing the white tip is not there.

I've also noticed with some joeys, that a few hairs, if only one hair seems to be a lighter color against their dark tails, but as they fluff up, it's more apparent that it is just the undertone of the dark hair showing through, and not an actual white tip.

I don't know where the cut off is. I'd say a clump of white fur at the tip of a tail has to be considered a white tip. At one point a couple years ago, people were saying if you can't see it in a photo, then it's not a white tip. But these babies I have now prove to the contrary. Their dad's white tip is hard to capture in photo's, and he's now reproduced 2 more white tipped babies. He's got the gene, therefore, he is a white tip... even with his "few" white hairs in a tiny clump at the tip of his tail. Right? =)

That's just my opinion. Obviously those huge white "tips"... are more of a white TAIL... and not just a tip. Probably comes from the same genetic. Who knows!?
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/07/09 06:12 PM

Even gliders that have no WT lineage can produce WT babes. Some WT X WT make 0 WT babes. The WT cross hasn't been exactly figured out, just pairs that semi-consistantly produce them from time to time. I really dont think it has much to do with the phenotype of the parents, more to do with their recessive genetics.

The odds of joey's having the tails nipped off creating WT's I dont think is significant to the number of WT's.

A good indicator that the joey is a WT for sure is the pink color on the tip of the tail. Even with smaller "clumps" the very tip of the tail is usually pink, like with my Chiquita.

Gliders can show random white hairs all over their body, but in a clump (7 hairs or how ever many is a really small amount when your talking total hair on the tip of the tail lol), yes you would think they did inherit the gene. But to sell them as, or label them "WT" I think you would want a more substantial WT tail than that.
Posted By: Laurens_Babies

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/07/09 06:34 PM

Well just for the record when Nicole showed me the picture I had the ability to zoom in on the area and there WAS pink skin on the end of the tail. I actually think Nicole is planning to keep this little joey or it is going to the adults original breeder. So I don't think its super important for us to classify 100% WHAT this baby is. It carries strong WT genetics and I feel that a few hairs (10) Doesn't classify a full WT name but it will carry the gene with a strong background. Some people don't believe a few hair's classify as a WT but some do. I dont think its a coincidence that this joey has two WT parents and just HAPPENS to have a lil pink spot on the end of its tail and just HAPPENS to have some white hairs growing from that end. Could mom have nipped the tail? Sure.

Congrats Nicole WT's and WT het's alike are special babies in my book.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/10/09 08:13 AM

Here's a pic of Wilson's WT:



*click to enlarge*

grin
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/10/09 03:32 PM

I wouldn't classify that tip as a "WT" I would say it is a glider from WT lines with a few white hairs in tip of the tail. I still think to sell or label a glider WT there should be a more substantial amount of white (pink at the tip when a joey). But that is just my opinion. smile

On the glider pictured above, as the gliders tail puffs out that small bit of while will probably all but disappear in the black the way smaller tips usually do.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/10/09 04:17 PM

Looks like a white tip to me!

Just because we produce a microscopic egg, doesn't mean it's NOT an egg. Just because a sugar glider's egg is even more microscopic than a human egg is, doesn't mean that it can't be classified as an Egg, because it is an egg. No matter how microscopic it is...An egg is an egg is an egg.

If a sugar glider HAS a white tip, then it's a white tip and should be classified as a white tip, because it's a White Tip! Even if it's a tiny white tip, it's still a white tip. Even if it all but disappears when the tail fluffs out, it's still a white tip and should be classified appropriately.

JMO =)
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/10/09 04:40 PM

I think there is a clear difference between a few hairs and a white TIP. The white tips have pink skin. A few white hairs, are often a black tip with only white hairs. Until more is known about the genetics behind it for SURE I think its unfair to label a few white hairs as a white TIP for breeding and sale purposes. Im all for being fair to the customer and not over charging for something we dont know much about yet. smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/10/09 04:53 PM

It was already discussed that this little joey does have pink skin at the tip, where the white tip is growing through now.

I'm not saying anything about selling or overcharging or anything of the sort, though people are able to make their own decisions about how much they are willing to spend on any particular thing... and then, whatever the amount is spent on it, IS what that item (white tip sugar glider or any other thing) is worth to that particular person that spends the money for that item.

Just the genetics of it all, a white tip is a white tip. Saying that it shouldn't be classified that way because it's small doesn't make sense. There is no way for us to determine just how many "hairs" it takes to be "classified" as a white tip if that's what actually determines it. I'm just saying that if there IS a white tip, that wasn't induced from an injury, then it's a white tip.

Posted By: Guerita135

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/10/09 04:59 PM

Well, I have him listed as a WT. The reason being is that the WT is so unpredictable and even a gray glider from 2 WT parents is still only a POSSIBLE WT het. Sooo...to list him as a het would mean that he only POSSIBLY has the gene, however, it's proven by the pressence of the white hairs that he DOES have the gene. Sooo...I'm listing him as a WT and saying that he's only got 3/4 white hairs.

Also, I'm only asking $25 more then his brother, so I'm not doing it because I'm money-hungry or anything, lol. Even though his tip is tiny, he IS a 2nd Gen WT, so I feel he's probably worth more then that, but because it's so small, I wouldn't feel comfortable asking any more. Nonetheless, imo, he's a 2nd Gen WT.
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/10/09 05:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Babydevilsangel
It was already discussed that this little joey does have pink skin at the tip, where the white tip is growing through now.


Yup, you can see it in the first pic I posted of the tails. It's not much, but if you look at the pic you can tell the the tip of his tail definately has a lighter color to it. wink

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u67/Tortiebaby/other/newpictures176-2.jpg

*the tail on the left
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/10/09 05:19 PM

I can't see any pink at all even blown up. But maybe Im missing something. Either way, I dont want to take this thread off topic, "WT Genetics".

What Im saying about classifying is that a "WT" should be pink skin (white hair will grow in where pink skin is, like leu's) rather than the dark skin and a few hairs. Im not disputing a WT's ability to be different sizes but the tail tip color, not lighter gray or darker gray - but a clear pink tip no matter the size. Tip to me means the TIP - not just a few hairs. But that is just my personal opinion based on my research of WT geneology in general.
Posted By: Lynsie

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/10/09 06:55 PM

Kinue, I agree with Becca. I don't think you quite understand where we are coming from. It has nothing to do with the size of the tip at all, it's all about genetics. Take mosaic for an example, you can have a mo that is all white or you can have one that has one tiny white dot or just a white foot, but it's still a mosaic because it has the gene. Same thing for the WT's, even if it still only has one white hair, that still indicates that it has the WT gene. The names of the gliders are based on thier genes not the amount of color they produce.
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: White Tip Genetics - 03/10/09 07:14 PM

First Iím not arguing with anyone, and I see what you are saying but I just happen to disagree with the labeling of "possible" WT's is all if they do not have a pink tip on the tail. This gene does not act like a MO's dominant trait where one foot can be white and therefore its offspring can and will be MO's.

Iím not saying a gliders with white hairs donít have the gene or that the size of the tip determines whether or not they carry the gene. That isn't what Iím saying at all. I first hand understand that WT tails vary in size. lol. But I happen to feel that "a few hairs" does not make a WT tail glider.

No one here has the gene figured out yet, correct? So to say a glider is genetically a WT because it has a few hairs may not be so. They very well could be complicated form of recessive gene where they express very little of the gene but cannot pass it to offspring as some types of genes do. Or they could be X-linked recessive and still only need one parent to carry the gene, but either parent can carry it... There are just many possibilities.

Looking at many many many WT lineages (and photos) is what I base my opinions on. To me it seems WT genetics have less to do with phenotype (what you SEE on a glider, like white hairs or a white tip) but more with recessive genes you may not see.

But again... That is just my personal opinion based on my research. No more no less.
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