GliderCENTRAL

Professional Rescues

Posted By: hushpuppy

Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 01:20 PM

I want to say some thing and I hope this stirs some emotions. But I also hope that my thoughts donít stir controversy. I would like to see us discuss thing calmly. I am posting this here because GC is not a rescue board and they are usually pretty good at getting things out in the open without the drama that we see on some boards. And I donít see this a just a rescue issue. I see this as a community issue. I donít want to hurt feelings, especially not the feelings of those who want to rescue. To me, those who rescue have a special place in my heart.

Iíve been in this community for a long time and Iíve seen many changes. We have come so far in improving diet, housing, enrichment, medical care, breeding, and all other areas of Glider husbandry. But after all this time it seems like we still have few standards in the area of rescue work. Ok, yes I know that a few people have been calling for higher standards, and I really poo pooed that idea. I kind of thought ďleave the newbys aloneĒ. But some recent events caused me to rethink those thoughts.

As an outsider I thought all you needed to have to do rescue work is a big heart, extra room in your home, and a list of people to help out. But my involvement with an attempted rescue has changed my mind and now I wonder if we donít need to set the bar a little higher when it comes to rescue work. I donít want to throw this rescuer under the bus because I know her and I know how much she loves gliders and she has a huge heart. But her inexperience and her lack of seeking knowledge from qualified rescues caused her to make some avoidable mistakes. Some of these mistakes, in some situations could have put gliders in jeopardy or risk the safety of herself and her volunteers.

Folks, with the massive numbers of gliders that are being dumped into our community we are going to need more rescues, a lot more. But they need to be people who have taken the time to be mentored by qualified organizations, and who have set their policies and standards, and understand the ins and outs or rescuing. They need to know their state and local laws, and understand the responsibility and accountability that comes with those laws. They need understand that they are dealing with people and emotions and sometimes that can be a volatile situation. They need to know their limits. They need to know how to keep medical records on the animals they take in. It is so much more involved than simply moving an animal from point A to point B. It is so much more than waking up one morning and deciding they want to rescue.

I would like to hear the opinions of others on this. How do we get there from here? How do we as a community handle the large numbers of gliders who will need rescued and homes? How do we get the right people in the right place with the right training?
Posted By: Jaxsuggies

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 02:12 PM

Anita, thanks for posting. We all know that we are talking about the 60 rescues from Florida and what happened and what did not happen.

The situation with these rescues was a huge eye openner for many of us (Julie and I) and some others. It has also hit me head on that we as a community are not ready to take in and properly care for big number of rescues. This situation has been on my mind and bugging me for the past three weeks. We are putting so much pressure on mill breeders and working together to close them down, etc. But, what will happen when we get that phone call in the middle of the night saying we have 3000 plus gliders that have been confiscated from a mill breeder. What are we going to do??? Guess what? Nothing. We as a community are not ready for it. We do not have the space, the supplies or the finances to do it. We also do not have enough rescuers or rescuer agents to even put a dent on that many gliders.

So, this situation goes beyond what can and cannot be done for these 60 gliders in Florida.

Spin made mistakes. These mistakes were made due to our mentality of "do whatever it takes to save gliders". We also made mistakes from our lack of knowledge of the FULL laws that govern rescuing. Irregardeless, of these mistakes, SPIN was mostly afraid of the community. Yes, I just said the community. Unfortunately we have people out there who are just waiting for someone to take one wrong step and crucify them. We know these people out there and we know what can happen (BLG's pay pal, Michele cookies, etc). I don't know who they are and to tell you the truth, don't care to know. But we as Spin do not want to be one of their targets.

Therefore, SPIN has decided to take 3 steps back in order move forward full steam. We have made some major changes which will be soon anounced to the community. We believe that these changes will put us in a better position to help gliders legally without the fear of being persecuted by zealous community members.

Anita, I love you, and believe me this situation has hurt som many people including Julie and I and I know that has hurt you deeply, but worst of all, it has hurt the gliders.

I hope that this entire incident also helps others realize how much work and what it takes to do real rescue work. Love and passion for gliders are requirements, but unfortunately we now live in a world that love and willingness is just not enough. You need to be backed up by the law.

Paula
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 02:42 PM

clap clap

To both above posts!!!
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 02:56 PM

Yes, the situation with the 60 gliders is what also opened my eyes, but no this is not just about that. As I said, I would not throw you guys under the bus because I understand that both of you are working from a position of love and wanting to help. So No this is not just about spin. I want this to be a way to bring out the "what ifs" to the community and to make positive changes that can maybe save someone in the future from making the same mistakes. So can we take what this situation and others like it has thrown at us and use that to make a positive impact instead of a negative one. Maybe there are others out there that we can help make the right choices.

Yes, I very well know that if we were successful in closing down a mill, we would not have the resources to handle it. But on the other hand I think we have seen that we also do not have the resources or the training to handle what happen if we don't work to close the mills.

And I have to tell you that with these 60 gliders, nothing got hurt but my pride. But it did make me stop and think about some of the things that could go wrong in these situations. It doesn't make me want to stop helping. Just the opposite, it makes me that much more determined to help,. Much to my DH dismay, I would probably do it all again tomorrow if it was needed. But it did make me stop and think about the ďwhat ifsĒ and I know that I have to work a little smarter the next time. And the crucifixions are survivable. I know that from experience.

We all learn from mistakes. But I've always believed that the best mistakes to learn from are other peopleís mistakes. So if I wanted to be a Doctor, I would get advice from someone in the medical profession. And If I wanted to be a millionaire, I sure wouldnít ask anyone in my neighborhood to mentor me. And that is all I am saying, that these young organizations like SPIN seek out those who have gone before them and learn from them, instead of trying things out and having to back up three steps. I say that because some mistakes and get animals hurt. And worse, some mistakes could get people hurt and a rescuer need to be aware of that and take precautions.

And I still donít see this as just a rescue problem. I see this whole ball of rescue/ mill fiasco as a community problem. And we need to be open to changes before we find them thrust upon us. We need to be working on those things now before we see the closing of a huge mill. We need to be planning and preparing now.
Posted By: Jaxsuggies

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 02:57 PM

Originally Posted By: hushpuppy
But her inexperience and her lack of seeking knowledge from qualified rescues caused her to make some avoidable mistakes. Some of these mistakes, in some situations could have put gliders in jeopardy or risk the safety of herself and her volunteers.


Anita - I also wanted to mention that we did seek help from qualified and experienced rescuers. It was their help that opened up our eyes to what we were doing wrong and steered us in the right direction.

It was very hard for Julie and I to make the decisions that we made. Believe me, it still bothers me. But unfortunately it is what it is, and I cannot go to jail. Not even if you guys bail me out !!!!
Posted By: LabNGliderMom

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 03:13 PM

In the case of these rescues, Anita, we had the support of other rescues from the word go... and though we made mistakes (I.E. we agreed to take them without checking the laws of FL first) we still managed to salvage the situation. I know your feelings were hurt, and for that I am truly sorry- if I could have saved you that pain I gladly would have- but the gliders appear to be safe and well cared for. Beyonfd that, I am not free to comment until our announcement (coming soon!) after which more details about this instance will be posted in the original thread about those gliders.

I agree with you that the COMMUNITY needs to pull together- this is NOT about rescues... it is about EDUCATION. If the mill breeders close their doors, the gliders will be euthanized because no one can afford to take them ALL in... if the mill breeders continue as is, the gliders suffer from neglect, poor diet, and terrible conditions... there is only ONE good way to handle this... EDUCATION.

The MILL BREEDERS need to be educated on proper care and handling and diets and the PUBLIC needs to be educated about the same (so that if they run across a mill breeder they are not tempted and instead try to offer advice). THIS is the ONLY way that the mill breeder situation can be TRULY addressed FOR THE GOOD OF THE GLIDERS in my hu,mble opinion.
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 03:18 PM

Paula, you are taking this as a personal assault and I am trying very hard for it to not be personal. I have no desire to crusify you as you put it. I want to help you and others like you. I wan't this to be positive and hopefully to draw people in who might have answers. I want people to learn form our mistakes. Yeah boy, I made mistakes too but maybe, just maybe we can learn from them and others can learn form them.

So maybe you could tell us what you learned and how it could be better handled in the future so that others might not fall into the same pit as we did.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 03:27 PM

Anita, Paula, you are BOTH on the same side here. Stop typing and pick up the phone and TALK to each other so words are not mixed up or read wrong.

With that being said...working together will get us further. And Lord knows the ones that are posting here HAVE been working together. grin
Posted By: josefine

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 03:27 PM

i feel it would be invaluable(?)to get w/bourbon on this. she already told me,back @ suz's WAGG, that when we get to this point,it will be that many of the gliders would,unfortunately,need to be put down,as there will be so many of them,that no one will be able to be of much help(w/the 60 now,compared to the thousands then)this is because the proper home would be too few.in this economy,there are many(as myself)that would give anything to adopt more gliders,but are unable to,b/c of the issue of cost.rescues do need medical care more so than what people actually think.i really don't think there can be too quick of a fix w/this,but,w/what has gone on,i feel everyone has done extraordinary well,considering.
josefine
Posted By: suggiemom1980

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 03:30 PM

Someone asked me my thoughts on them fostering gliders from their local animal shelter. Here's what I told them. Hope it helps!

This might help you decide. Remember, if you take gliders in, they will become your FULL responsibility. First of all, they have to go to the vet ASAP. YOU pay for it. For the testing, for medicine, for any treatment they need from x-rays to surgery. You'll have to have a quarantine space for them, toys, pouches, wheels, food, bonding, etc. It'll be YOUR responsibility to find new homes for them and that may not be as easy as you think. Until then, they will be YOUR gliders. I would strongly suggest you join all4gliders and/or S.P.I.N. They can be your support, encouragement, source of information and help you re-home your rescues.

Here is the questionnaire I give to everyone who wants to adopt gliders from me. It helps people figure out if they are ready for gliders or not. It will help you figure out if you want to do this.

Remember....you can't save them all. And if you take in too many and get in over your head, you're not helping them.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 03:33 PM

Quote:
i feel it would be invaluable(?)to get w/bourbon on this


Is Bourbon 5013c or an agent of a licensed rescue shelter? If not, Bourbon would not be given any of the rescues from a shut down such as Arlington (when it is known as a crime scene)neither.

THAT is part of the issue, although we have those who WANT to do rescue, there are not that many out there that are LEGAL to do it.

THAT is what needs to be worked on and it wont be done overnight for sure. grin
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 03:36 PM

Originally Posted By: josefine
i feel it would be invaluable(?)to get w/bourbon on this. she already told me,back @ suz's WAGG, that when we get to this point,it will be that many of the gliders would,unfortunately,need to be put down,as there will be so many of them,that no one will be able to be of much help(w/the 60 now,compared to the thousands then)this is because the proper home would be too few.in this economy,there are many(as myself)that would give anything to adopt more gliders,but are unable to,b/c of the issue of cost.rescues do need medical care more so than what people actually think.i really don't think there can be too quick of a fix w/this,but,w/what has gone on,i feel everyone has done extraordinary well,considering.
josefine


But Josefine, I think the alternative would be much worse. If those thousands of glider are left in the system and have many joeys, we could very easily be looking at tens of thousands of gliders that need rescued or euthanized in a few short years.

So that is what I am asking. Where do we go and how do we get there?

Those are great points Peggy, and exactly what I was talking about. There is more to it than just having a big heart and the want to.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 03:50 PM

Just catching up here, will post when I can get the hubby out the door.
Posted By: Jaxsuggies

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 03:53 PM

Anita, I swear I am not thinking this is an attack on me or anything like that and I am sorry if I came out that way. Your post was great, and just like I was hit with the reality of the current rescue homes, I believe so was you. Both you and I came to the same conclusion. We are not ready both in educational terms or financial terms to take on a big amount of rescues. We are also not legally ready for anything like that. There are many rescuers out there, which is great. Most of us follow just about the same standards such as quarantine, vet care, finding forever homes, etc. What we are missing is the legal part.

I also believe that we as a community need to come together and be prepared for the worst. We need to have funds stashed away, supplies ready to go and educated rescuers or rescuer agents ready to go. How do we accomplish that? I sincerely do not know at this time. It needs to be a community effort.

I am happy for your post and I hope that we as a community can come up with solutions for our issues.
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 04:00 PM

(BIG SIGH)TY Paula, I tried so hard to point to the huge need in our tiny community without hurting anyone. I LUVS ya girl and I am a big supporter of both you and Julie. I don't know if we can make the changes that need to go along with rescue, but I sure hope we can at least talk about it and maybe set some ground work for other to follow.

What I have learned as a volunteer is that if I am ever asked to do this again, I will arrange to meet in a public place to exchange gliders. That is for my safety and the safety of those who are handing the gliders off. That is something that I would not have thought of before.
Posted By: Jaxsuggies

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 04:07 PM

Anita - I LUVS you too !!!! I have learned so much but I am at work now .... I will post later. I just wanted to make sure that you did not think I felt like I was being attacked. I believe this post will be great and will teach anybody who wants to do rescue work what needs to be done.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
i feel it would be invaluable(?)to get w/bourbon on this


Is Bourbon 5013c or an agent of a licensed rescue shelter? If not, Bourbon would not be given any of the rescues from a shut down such as Arlington (when it is known as a crime scene)neither.

THAT is part of the issue, although we have those who WANT to do rescue, there are not that many out there that are LEGAL to do it.

THAT is what needs to be worked on and it wont be done overnight for sure. grin


This is the point that we are at now, it's not just going in John Wayne style and rescuing gliders. There can be severe legal ramifications, and civil suits bought against someone who was only trying to help gliders.

In cases like the Arlington raid, there are only 2 legal rescues that gliders could be released to. Even though someone may have years of rescue experience, without a license stating you are a legal rescue or an agent of said, you cannot help.

I believe with the economy and the numbers of gliders out there now, we will face more situations like Arlington in the very near future. Are we prepared should there be a mill breeder shut down or closing their shop? Not even close! I would LOVE to be able to help, but here again, I sit able, qualified to handle rescues, and have the resources needed but all that does NOT make me legal to do anything and therefore, me and many others with more years of doing rescue can only sit on the sidelines and watch.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 04:35 PM

I personally think another thing that one must figure out is what is a TRUE *rescue*

To me,personally, I view these gliders mentioned in this thread as rehomes...NOT rescues.

These gliders were said to be in good health, sweet and taken care of when they arrived at the home they are in now.

Just because a person has a large number of gliders does NOT make them a Mill. Nor does it mean that when they are no longer able to operate their business, their gliders than turn into rescues.

To me, a rescue is an animal who without proper help and vet care would die. The animals that were associated with the Arlington Raid...those we in every sense of the word RESCUES. When animals have to eat the carcasses of the dead animals around them to survive, or are going without food/water for days at a time, have health or missing limbs, etc...those are rescues.

When folks hit hard times and can no longer take care of the animals they chose to have, and they have to find new homes for them, they (in my eyes) are rehomed animals.

Val had summed up the word rescue once in the past and it was the perfect explanation. I hope that she sees this post and will come give her version of a *True Rescue* versus a Rehome.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 04:55 PM

This is a great discussion. I've heard that a big glider shop here in Utah is shutting its doors and I'm worried about what will happen to all of those poor gliders.
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 05:22 PM

Can a breeder legally be a "rescue" too?
Posted By: eterrell84

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 05:24 PM

Originally Posted By: LabNGliderMom
In the case of these rescues, Anita, we had the support of other rescues from the word go... and though we made mistakes (I.E. we agreed to take them without checking the laws of FL first) we still managed to salvage the situation. I know your feelings were hurt, and for that I am truly sorry- if I could have saved you that pain I gladly would have- but the gliders appear to be safe and well cared for. Beyonfd that, I am not free to comment until our announcement (coming soon!) after which more details about this instance will be posted in the original thread about those gliders.

I agree with you that the COMMUNITY needs to pull together- this is NOT about rescues... it is about EDUCATION. If the mill breeders close their doors, the gliders will be euthanized because no one can afford to take them ALL in... if the mill breeders continue as is, the gliders suffer from neglect, poor diet, and terrible conditions... there is only ONE good way to handle this... EDUCATION.

The MILL BREEDERS need to be educated on proper care and handling and diets and the PUBLIC needs to be educated about the same (so that if they run across a mill breeder they are not tempted and instead try to offer advice). THIS is the ONLY way that the mill breeder situation can be TRULY addressed FOR THE GOOD OF THE GLIDERS in my hu,mble opinion.


but "managing to solve" something is not always whats gonna happen! seems like the situation worked out this time, but what about next time someone *forgets* to look at something as HUGE as Florida state law?? even with help, it seems like this rescue group was still not ready. i REALLY dont want to upset anybody, im just voicing my opinion just like everybody else on this topic. Everybody here seems they feel they are in the right, and the other side needs to "lay off or get help"... we are all in agreement that everything should be for the GOOD OF THE GLIDER, but i dont see how bulldozing into the situation (from either side!) can help! things like this topic on this forum is GREAT because it DOES get this subject out there. but i feel everybody *does* need to look into it a little better.... we all have room for improvement here!
Posted By: eterrell84

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 05:29 PM

hushpuppy.... didnt you help transfer the "first wave" of gliders? so you helped with the rescue?
Posted By: LabNGliderMom

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 05:52 PM

Originally Posted By: eterrell84
hushpuppy.... didnt you help transfer the "first wave" of gliders? so you helped with the rescue?


No one transported these gliders except the person who currently is housing them and she is NOT a board memebr, and NOT a part of SPIN just a private citizen who was trying to help. Anita OFFERRED to help transport but transportation and/or SPIN taking posession of the gliders never ocurred.
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 05:54 PM

Thank you, Anita, for bringing this discussion to GliderCENTRAL.

Eddie and I have felt standards within the rescue community are long overdue and should be across the board.

We know there are some rescuers in the community who have tried very hard to set basic standards for the rescue homes to follow while others do not like those standards.

There should never be a double standard.

This is different, I believe, than what you are talking about but also needs to be addressed within the glider community.

Eddie and I are trying very hard to make changes and move GliderCENTRAL forward. One area possibly being in the area of rescues, but we will never be able to do that the way rescuers are at this time.

This is an extremely important thread, not only for what happened in this particular situation with the 60 gliders, but for rescuers in the glider community.

Please everyone, let's keep personal feelings, as much as possible, out of this topic so we can keep it open.

Posted By: eterrell84

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 06:15 PM

***"Thank you HushPuppy (Anita) for providing the transportation to get the first "wave" of 23 of these gliders up to meet me tomorrow- your help is SO appreciated!***"
saw this on another post and just asumed that she helped i guess... sorry!
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 06:23 PM

Ty Karen, and I hope we can keep it in a good place where anyone who wants to rescue can do so and know that what they are doing is not only legal, but also a move that makes the gliders lives better. No one has offended me in anyway and I hope that I have not offended anyone.

I am not a rescue and I know that I don't have the stuff that it takes to make a good rescue. That is why I so intensely respect those who do this and who make these hard choices. It is not something that should be entered into lightly. I see it as more of a calling.

eterrell84, yes I would have picked these gliders up and delivered them to Julie. But events happened and I was unable to do that. And I would do it again tomorrow if they needed me. I trust them and I know that they are working to get the proper things in place and I think they trust me also. This is not about SPIN. This is about helping others who like SPIN have a heart for rescueing learn that there are standards and laws and red flags that should be thought about long before the gliders start coming in. Can we keep it this discussion there? Can we Keep it about how to help those who want to rescue?
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 06:39 PM

Originally Posted By: josefine
i feel it would be invaluable(?)to get w/bourbon on this.


I think uniting the community and continuing to focus on EDUCATION is crucial.

I think CONSTANTLY biting our tongues, rethinking our words, checking to see what the "real world" hears when we speak is critical. We cannot continue to attack -- not each other in this community, and not people trying to do the right thing. We MUST be a support group of one another, not a group in which our own members fear the attack of "the community."

There are some people who talk talk talk talk and don't *DO* anything. Their words MUST become less important to all of us. We need to begin judging people by what's in their HEARTS. Or better yet - not judging each other at all - just supporting and offering love.

There are also those who think they deserve some sort of respect or admiration because of some perceived "status" in this community. As one of my favorite songs says "You might be a big fish in a little pond. Doesn't mean you've won." I am no respecter of "person." People need to be seen for their works, not their words or status.
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 06:58 PM

Anita, thank you so much for this thread! Karen is right, this is one area we would like to change in GC's policy, but the way it is now it cannot happen!!!!

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
There are also those who think they deserve some sort of respect or admiration because of some perceived "status" in this community. As one of my favorite songs says "You might be a big fish in a little pond. Doesn't mean you've won." I am no respecter of "person." People need to be seen for their works, not their words or status.


Alden, you are correct. As Karen mentioned there should not be a double standard and it seems the ones you are talking about above think other wise.

Just like the raffle stuff, and breeders, rescues should have standards and be as legal as possible. Status means nothing if you are not on the up and up, playing slide of hands, and not trying to work with everyone!

We want to add the terms rescue and rehomes to our glossary and will open a post and then a poll soon!!!
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 07:35 PM

Originally Posted By: gliderdad79

Just like the raffle stuff, and breeders, rescues should have standards and be as legal as possible.


EXACTLY!

I recently made a post about this very thing on The Sweet Spot. I see disaster coming for our community rescue process if we don't make changes. Some of us began the process of making changes years ago, but you know how that goes and how things get perceived and so on and so on.

Peggy - I am here, but have very little time to respond. I will look up and copy and paste my definition of a "rescue" as it applies to Kingdom Kritters soon.

There have been many great points made in this thread so far, and I really hope that they continue.

One thing that I hear very often is that many of our rescue homes/rescuers don't want to go through the trouble to be licensed, registered, 501c3, whatever because of the cost, the time it takes to do so and the regulations by both state and federal governing bodies that must be followed once you do.
First, I say - why not? If helping with rescues is something you want to do, then there are options. BUT, if you feel called to be a RESCUE HOME, then you must be concerned about just more than your heart. Being a RESCUE HOME is not just about taking in a glider and finding them a new home and caring for them while they are with you. That is the FUN part of rescue work, but is not at all everything that is required. Why would anyone jeopardize their own gliders, their family, their finances and their home by disregarding the law while posting all over the internet that they are a RESCUER/RESCUE HOME and able to take in both gliders and donations (monetary or material)? I do not understand that at all.

The reality is that most of us that ARE either registered, 501c3, licensed, or appointed as agents of agencies that are (or ALL of the above) understand that rescue work is far more work, paperwork and accountability than one would think.

There is room for ALL levels of rescue work in this community. BUT, the legal responsibility for rescues that are legally seized will ONLY be transferred to properly licensed facilities. That is just a reality. So, if you want to help out, but don't want to go through all the legalities of becoming licensed/registered, etc for yourself, why not contact one of our ALREADY legal and established rescue homes and discuss becoming a legal agent of their rescue home? I know that I am open to taking on agents, and have already done so.


A few things need to happen in this community:
1) Standards for rescue work must be set. Karen and Eddie, I would love to talk with you both about this more.

2) We MUST begin to follow those standards, one of which must include following the law.

3) We MUST use as our mentors those organizations who ALREADY understand the law and the standards set for rescue work outside of this community. It is not enough to consult other "established and experienced" rescuers if they are not, themselves, already involved in this process. It is helpful, but you just slow your own progress. If someone is not ALREADY legal and following a set of written standards, then relying on them for advice could leave you having to take 3 steps back again and again later on down the road. This is not because they don't love gliders or understand the process, but it is because they do not have the experience to properly guide you along your journey - there may be things they have never considered or encountered.
If you are not comfortable with your choices within this community, look outside of the glider community for this type of mentoring from a qualified organization or individual. YES, we should learn from the experience and mistakes of those that have gone before us. No sense continuing to repeat things over and over again if we can learn from someone else and do better from the "giddy-up".

The rescue situation in this community is very concerning to me. Has been for a long time. It has not stopped me from being part of the community, from taking the beatings that I have taken for speaking my mind on this issue, from taking in, rehabilitating and re-homing many lovely gliders, or from becoming one of our legally registered rescue homes.
Posted By: josefine

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 07:40 PM

would there be any way to get the vets involved in this?Florida is such a huge state,from Pensacola to Miami,there must be some of them that would be willing to help. jmo
josefine
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By: gliderdad79

Just like the raffle stuff, and breeders, rescues should have standards and be as legal as possible.


I think 100% legal.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 08:03 PM

Well, as mentioned, there are "Rescue Homes" and people who help out. Rescues are not the same as Rescuers.

I have 9 little rescued gliders here of the 19 I took in a few weeks ago. I do not consider myself to be a "Professional Rescue" but I do consider myself to be someone who can help out when there is a need.

I couldn't have done it without help from the community. However, having gotten these guys, it was my responsibility to make sure they were vet checked, neutered, and medicated where necessary. If I violated laws in doing that - I'm not aware of it, and I'm sorry. It was my attempt to be completely legal.

I think the "legal" card would only be played if someone chose to be judgemental of the way I did things. There are laws, yes, but - if I'm being supported by this community, there's no need to call in authorities or report my actions. If I do something wrong, I rely on loving support and education.

I am not a "rescue facility" so I'm not aware of standards and laws, etc. I was asked to help out, and I did so. We do need to have community-wide standards, which apply to ALL gliders, rescues or pets or breeders.

However, those standards need to be supported with EDUCATION, not judgementalism. We need to encourage and help everyone to meet those standards, and only "write them off" when they refuse to be gently led. THAT'S where "we cannot save every one" comes in. We cannot force other owners to do what we perceive to be right.

However, are we going to start calling out those who are helping out in the best way they can? Are we going to start criticizing the "standards" of people who stumbled into rescue and are helping out the best way they can? Or are we going to STOP lecturing and START helping? Educate through assistance? GIVE and not TALK?

I'm sure any member of the community could come into my house right now and examine these little 9 sweet rescues and immediately start finding fault. OR, you could come in and offer to make a batch of HPW, or help wash toys and wheels, or send some pouches. What are WE doing as a community to help out those people who Rescue when it is needed.

(I am NOT referring to myself. I have received HUGE support from this community, and I'm VERY grateful.)
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 08:26 PM

Alden, I would not consider the subject of this post to be geared towards you.

When Eddie and I are talking about standards in the glider community, we are talking about people who call themselves rescuers, are known to be rescuers in the community and have websites geared toward rescuing or are designated rescuers by someone with their permission (I certainly I covered that correctly).

We would NOT be talking about someone who was asked in an emergency to take in a few gliders. I know you would not have taken in 60 gliders regardless of the situation. At least I'm pretty sure you would not have crazy
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 08:52 PM

I do NOT take this about me. I am only stating my experience.

I question saying things like if you want to rescue, you need to register 501c3. As I said, there's a difference between Rescue Homes, and people who rescue. There are laws that I don't know, and didn't even consider.

I was in a situation of finding out the laws as I went along, and I'm sure there are many I still don't know.

I was in shock from rescuing 19! I can't even imagine rescuing 60! I am NOT speaking about myself, only trying to distinguish between those who rescue and rescuers.

My attempts were to add another view to the conversation, not make it about me. I certainly do NOT feel at all attacked, and I'm not taking this conversation personally at all.

Edit to add: I found out a great deal about this community from my experience. I now know the difference between people who TALK about rescuing and people who ACT. There is a vast gap! All are in a position to help, whether they are rich or poor. However, few do so. Those few, whether they help with products, money or advice, are golden.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 09:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom
Originally Posted By: gliderdad79

Just like the raffle stuff, and breeders, rescues should have standards and be as legal as possible.


EXACTLY!

I recently made a post about this very thing on The Sweet Spot. I see disaster coming for our community rescue process if we don't make changes. Some of us began the process of making changes years ago, but you know how that goes and how things get perceived and so on and so on.

Peggy - I am here, but have very little time to respond. I will look up and copy and paste my definition of a "rescue" as it applies to Kingdom Kritters soon.

There have been many great points made in this thread so far, and I really hope that they continue.

One thing that I hear very often is that many of our rescue homes/rescuers don't want to go through the trouble to be licensed, registered, 501c3, whatever because of the cost, the time it takes to do so and the regulations by both state and federal governing bodies that must be followed once you do.
First, I say - why not? If helping with rescues is something you want to do, then there are options. BUT, if you feel called to be a RESCUE HOME, then you must be concerned about just more than your heart. Being a RESCUE HOME is not just about taking in a glider and finding them a new home and caring for them while they are with you. That is the FUN part of rescue work, but is not at all everything that is required. Why would anyone jeopardize their own gliders, their family, their finances and their home by disregarding the law while posting all over the internet that they are a RESCUER/RESCUE HOME and able to take in both gliders and donations (monetary or material)? I do not understand that at all.

The reality is that most of us that ARE either registered, 501c3, licensed, or appointed as agents of agencies that are (or ALL of the above) understand that rescue work is far more work, paperwork and accountability than one would think.

There is room for ALL levels of rescue work in this community. BUT, the legal responsibility for rescues that are legally seized will ONLY be transferred to properly licensed facilities. That is just a reality. So, if you want to help out, but don't want to go through all the legalities of becoming licensed/registered, etc for yourself, why not contact one of our ALREADY legal and established rescue homes and discuss becoming a legal agent of their rescue home? I know that I am open to taking on agents, and have already done so.


A few things need to happen in this community:
1) Standards for rescue work must be set. Karen and Eddie, I would love to talk with you both about this more.

2) We MUST begin to follow those standards, one of which must include following the law.

3) We MUST use as our mentors those organizations who ALREADY understand the law and the standards set for rescue work outside of this community. It is not enough to consult other "established and experienced" rescuers if they are not, themselves, already involved in this process. It is helpful, but you just slow your own progress. If someone is not ALREADY legal and following a set of written standards, then relying on them for advice could leave you having to take 3 steps back again and again later on down the road. This is not because they don't love gliders or understand the process, but it is because they do not have the experience to properly guide you along your journey - there may be things they have never considered or encountered.
If you are not comfortable with your choices within this community, look outside of the glider community for this type of mentoring from a qualified organization or individual. YES, we should learn from the experience and mistakes of those that have gone before us. No sense continuing to repeat things over and over again if we can learn from someone else and do better from the "giddy-up".

The rescue situation in this community is very concerning to me. Has been for a long time. It has not stopped me from being part of the community, from taking the beatings that I have taken for speaking my mind on this issue, from taking in, rehabilitating and re-homing many lovely gliders, or from becoming one of our legally registered rescue homes.


clap clap

I have to agree with every thing that Val just stated. And we need to remember, not everyone is going to agree with the Legal and Proper way of doing rescue, sometimes the legal rescues will even be put down as Val has been done many times, because in a Legal aspect, their hands are tied. Let me try to give an example...

Lets say Jane Doe can no longer care for her gliders at this time due to the economy, so she talks with Marsha and Marsha agrees to take them in. Marsha realizes that she may have gotten in over her head and reaches out for help. She then says she received these gliders from someone she considers she *rescued* them from. Everyone wants to jump in to help (just the kind of people we are)but Jane never signed any papers stated she was relinquishing these gliders to Marsha. So Terry hears that Marsha needs help with gliders and offers to lend a helping hand in a financial manner. Since Terry is known to do rescue work everyone supports her.
The gliders are taken in for wellness checks and all the males are neutered.

Two months later Jane contacts Marsha and says she is back on her feet and would like her gliders back. Jane becomes LIVID when she finds out the males were neutered. It has ruined her business as she was a breeder. Marsha knew she was a breeder as did Terry. Terry *THOUGHT* that Jane had released them to Marsha, and although she asked for papers showing Jane had released them, in the end she just took Marshas word for it, after all, these males really needed to be neutered.

Jane decides she is going to take legal action against Marsha for making this decision and then she hears that Terry was involved as well, so she adds her name and organization to the suit.

The judge hears the case and asks Terry if she was aware that these gliders were just in the care of Marsha, when Terry states I thought they were released, the judge is going to ask if she saw any legal paperwork releasing them to Marsha. Terry has to say no.

The judge is then going to ask Jane what her losses are. Jane will come up with a number as to how many joeys she THINKS within reason those gliders COULD HAVE produced for her now and the years to come and take the figure of the cost of each joey that she could get TODAY for each one. THAT is the cost, along with court costs, that Jane could then be granted. This money will NOT only have to come from Marsha, but also from the Terry and her Organization.

Legal steps HAVE to be taken. YES, it IS going to cost money, time and a LOT of headaches in paperwork and aggravation in not being able to help every case, but in the end it WILL benefit the whole community and gliders.

So although we ALL want to help, proper steps HAVE to be taken. Like Val said if you dont want to go through all the steps, become an agent to an organization that already has. There ARE legal ways to help.

Eddie and Karen, thank you for allowing this to stay here. It IS something that NEEDS to be discussed, learned and understood.
Posted By: Tish84

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 09:03 PM

For informaton purposes for those of us wanting to know what a 501c3 is:
501(c)(3) exemptions apply to corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, educational purposes, to foster national or international amateur sports competition, promote the arts, or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals.

Another provision, 26 U.S.C. ß 170, provides a deduction, for federal income tax purposes, for some donors who make charitable contributions to most types of 501(c)(3) organizations, among others. Regulations specify which such deductions must be verifiable in order to be allowed (e.g., receipts for donations over $250). Due to the tax deductions associated with donations, loss of 501(c)(3) status can be highly challenging to a charity's continued operation, as many foundations and corporate matching programs will not grant funds to a charity without such status, and individual donors often will not consider making a donation to such a charity due to the unavailability of the deduction.

Testing for public safety is described under section 509(a)(4) of the code which makes the organization a public charity and not a private foundation,[9] but contributions to 509(a)(4) organizations are not deductible by the donor for federal income, estate, or gift tax purposes.

The two exempt classifications of 501(c)(3) organizations are as follows:

A public charity, identified by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) as "not a private foundation," normally receives a substantial part of its income, directly or indirectly, from the general public or from the government. The public support must be fairly broad, not limited to a few individuals or families. Public charities are defined in the Internal Revenue Code under sections 509(a)(1) through 509(a)(4).

A private foundation, sometimes called a non-operating foundation, receives most of its income from investments and endowments. This income is used to make grants to other organizations, rather than being dispersed directly for charitable activities. Private foundations are defined in the Internal Revenue Code under section 509(a) as 501(c)(3) organizations which do not qualify as public charities.

Obtaining status
Most organizations acquire 501(c)(3) tax exemption by filing IRS Form 1023. The form must be accompanied by a $750 filing fee if the gross receipts for the organization are expected to average $10,000 or more.[11] If gross receipts are expected to average less than $10,000, the filing fee is reduced to $300.[11] There are some classes of organizations that automatically are treated as tax exempt under 501(c)(3), without the need to file Form 1023:

Churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches
Organizations that are not private foundations and that have gross receipts that normally are not more than than $5,000

On January 3, 2010, these fees were increased. After that date, the filing fee will be "$850 for organizations whose gross receipts exceed $10,000 annually over a 4-year period". "$400 for organizations whose gross receipts are $10,000 or less annually over a 4-year period".

The IRS also expects to release a software tool called Cyber Assistant in 2010, which will assist with the preparation of the application for tax exemption. Once Cyber Assistant becomes available, the user fee structure will change again. The fees will then be $200 for all organizations (regardless of size) that file using Cyber Assistant. Organizations that do not use Cyber Assistant (regardless of size) will pay a user fee of $850.

Political activity
Section 501(c)(3) organizations are subject to limits or absolute prohibitions on engaging in political activities.

Elections
Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are prohibited from conducting political campaign activities to intervene in elections to public office. The Internal Revenue Service website elaborates upon this prohibition as follows:

"Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes.

"Certain activities or expenditures may not be prohibited depending on the facts and circumstances. For example, certain voter education activities (including presenting public forums and publishing voter education guides) conducted in a non-partisan manner do not constitute prohibited political campaign activity. In addition, other activities intended to encourage people to participate in the electoral process, such as voter registration and get-out-the-vote drives, would not be prohibited political campaign activity if conducted in a non-partisan manner.

"On the other hand, voter education or registration activities with evidence of bias that (a) would favor one candidate over another; (b) oppose a candidate in some manner; or (c) have the effect of favoring a candidate or group of candidates, will constitute prohibited participation or intervention.

"The Internal Revenue Service provides resources to exempt organizations and the public to help them understand the prohibition. As part of its examination program, the IRS also monitors whether organizations are complying with the prohibition."

Lobbying
In contrast to the absolute prohibition on political campaign interventions by all section 501(c)(3) organizations, public charities (but not private foundations) are permitted to conduct a limited amount of lobbying to influence legislation. Although the law states that "no substantial part" of a public charity's activities may be devoted to lobbying, charities with very large budgets may lawfully expend a million dollars (under the "expenditure" test) or more (under the "substantial part" test) per year on lobbying.
Posted By: Tish84

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 09:17 PM

With the price going down to $200 this year, there shouldn't be any excuse for those rescuing full time or most of the time to not be 5013c certified.

That's a big plus for Rescue work.
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 09:56 PM

It is a plus, Tish. Unfortunately, the money is not the thing stopping most people - the legal regulations and accountability are the thing that so many do not wish to be held to.

If it were only about money, SO many would have already gone through the process.

Again, I am impressed with the great points made so far in this thread. Can't wait to read more!
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 11:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Tish84
With the price going down to $200 this year, there shouldn't be any excuse for those rescuing full time or most of the time to not be 5013c certified.

That's a big plus for Rescue work.


Me personally and I'm sure for others- it's not about the money of becoming 501c/non-profit- it's about the requirements for getting such an organization started.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 11:14 PM

For me, it has been about the money. I hope that the price does go down. Even $200 is a LOT of money for me these days but I'm sure I can get it somehow.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/08/10 11:18 PM

Been reading a bit in this book and find it very informative for myself and hope posting a book title isn't against the rules. I'm also very open to any other information anyone would be willing to share that is not written in a way to baffle and confuse a regular gal with very little legal education.

Nonprofit Kit for Dummies
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/09/10 01:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom
Originally Posted By: gliderdad79

Just like the raffle stuff, and breeders, rescues should have standards and be as legal as possible.


EXACTLY!

I recently made a post about this very thing on The Sweet Spot. I see disaster coming for our community rescue process if we don't make changes. Some of us began the process of making changes years ago, but you know how that goes and how things get perceived and so on and so on.

Peggy - I am here, but have very little time to respond. I will look up and copy and paste my definition of a "rescue" as it applies to Kingdom Kritters soon.

There have been many great points made in this thread so far, and I really hope that they continue.

One thing that I hear very often is that many of our rescue homes/rescuers don't want to go through the trouble to be licensed, registered, 501c3, whatever because of the cost, the time it takes to do so and the regulations by both state and federal governing bodies that must be followed once you do.
First, I say - why not? If helping with rescues is something you want to do, then there are options. BUT, if you feel called to be a RESCUE HOME, then you must be concerned about just more than your heart. Being a RESCUE HOME is not just about taking in a glider and finding them a new home and caring for them while they are with you. That is the FUN part of rescue work, but is not at all everything that is required. Why would anyone jeopardize their own gliders, their family, their finances and their home by disregarding the law while posting all over the internet that they are a RESCUER/RESCUE HOME and able to take in both gliders and donations (monetary or material)? I do not understand that at all.

The reality is that most of us that ARE either registered, 501c3, licensed, or appointed as agents of agencies that are (or ALL of the above) understand that rescue work is far more work, paperwork and accountability than one would think.

There is room for ALL levels of rescue work in this community. BUT, the legal responsibility for rescues that are legally seized will ONLY be transferred to properly licensed facilities. That is just a reality. So, if you want to help out, but don't want to go through all the legalities of becoming licensed/registered, etc for yourself, why not contact one of our ALREADY legal and established rescue homes and discuss becoming a legal agent of their rescue home? I know that I am open to taking on agents, and have already done so.


A few things need to happen in this community:
1) Standards for rescue work must be set. Karen and Eddie, I would love to talk with you both about this more.

2) We MUST begin to follow those standards, one of which must include following the law.

3) We MUST use as our mentors those organizations who ALREADY understand the law and the standards set for rescue work outside of this community. It is not enough to consult other "established and experienced" rescuers if they are not, themselves, already involved in this process. It is helpful, but you just slow your own progress. If someone is not ALREADY legal and following a set of written standards, then relying on them for advice could leave you having to take 3 steps back again and again later on down the road. This is not because they don't love gliders or understand the process, but it is because they do not have the experience to properly guide you along your journey - there may be things they have never considered or encountered.
If you are not comfortable with your choices within this community, look outside of the glider community for this type of mentoring from a qualified organization or individual. YES, we should learn from the experience and mistakes of those that have gone before us. No sense continuing to repeat things over and over again if we can learn from someone else and do better from the "giddy-up".

The rescue situation in this community is very concerning to me. Has been for a long time. It has not stopped me from being part of the community, from taking the beatings that I have taken for speaking my mind on this issue, from taking in, rehabilitating and re-homing many lovely gliders, or from becoming one of our legally registered rescue homes.


Originally Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom
1) Standards for rescue work must be set. Karen and Eddie, I would love to talk with you both about this more.


We are here, just let us know when wink I think yes standards do need to be set, but dont feel it will be welcomed by some "existing" rescue homes. My response to that is oh well, we can make the change with or without them!! What I really and truly think the community needs is for a legit, legal rescue site/forum established. One that knows the ins and outs of the laws, one that has their 501, one that will allow homes who they checkout work as an agent under their 501 umbrella if need be.

If a legit and legal site like this does happen, then things will be taken more seriously by vets, by the legal system and who knows can possibly work to try and get grants & funding! Ive been wanting to see this happen for years, but sadly it hasnt.

Over the years we have seen some well known rescue homes collapse, crumble, and still around for many disturbing & selfish(on the rescue homes part) reasons. That needs to stop and focus back on what we can do for the gliders, not what they can do for us!
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/09/10 01:32 AM

Quote:
We are here, just let us know when wink I think yes standards do need to be set, but dont feel it will be welcomed by some "existing" rescue homes. My response to that is oh well, we can make the change with or without them!! What I really and truly think the community needs is for a legit, legal rescue site/forum established. One that knows the ins and outs of the laws, one that has their 501, one that will allow homes who they checkout work as an agent under their 501 umbrella if need be.

If a legit and legal site like this does happen, then things will be taken more seriously by vets, by the legal system and who knows can possibly work to try and get grants & funding! Ive been wanting to see this happen for years, but sadly it hasnt.

Over the years we have seen some well known rescue homes collapse, crumble, and still around for many disturbing & selfish(on the rescue homes part) reasons. That needs to stop and focus back on what we can do for the gliders, not what they can do for us!


clap clap


if it is done LEGALLY a LOT more doors will open to help.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/09/10 01:58 AM

Thank you so much for making this post. For the first time I was, in a round about way, involved in a rescue. I was very upset with how this particular organization handled a rescue - they placed an intact male in a home that they told was a female joey. (Many issues there!)

Standards, in my opinion, are a necessity. Not meaning to be offensive to anyone that does the occasional rescue, but I still think standards are needed, and obviously desired in this community.
Posted By: USMom

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/09/10 03:48 AM

After reading through this, I have several points to what's been said already, and some thoughts of my own.

A non-profit, whether 501 c-3 or simply state registered, is required to have a board of directors. A vet can be brought into the process there, if the rescue so chooses. Just randomly bringing a vet in does nothing.

Re-homing gliders is not rescue work, so talking about that is pointless. What is being discussed here is rescue work. Working as an organization, bringing in gliders, working with them, getting medical care for them, vetting new homes, etc... This includes recieving donations, solicited or not.

Alden, this wasn't about you, but you bring up a good point. This is, for the most part, a helpful and loving community. And most people won't turn someone in. But, some will, and they have. So, being 100% legal thwarts this.

Those things being said, becoming legal and gaining non-profit status opens a lot of doors. There are grants that can be applied for, research is available, so much becomes available. It is a win all the way around. And, as has been pointed out, being not legal is a lose for the gliders. If this had been a glider mill, most of the gliders would have had to be euthanized. Being legal won't change that eventuality overnight, but it will help mitigate it.

I am very interested in what the rest of the community has to add here. I think we are a bunch of smart cookies, and can get to where we need to be, in order to fully defeat the mills, and protect our babies. But, we have to work hard, and together for a common purpose. This is step one.

Good job, Anita, for opening the door. hug2
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/10/10 12:20 PM

What about Glider Rescues in conjunction with the SPCA. They do have the legal right to rescue animals. They also have access to vets. Perhaps GC can work with them on education about gliders as it looks as if in the near future there could be some massive rescues needed. I'm in Canada where gliders are relatively rare but have let the SPCA know if they rescue gliders I will foster them until proper homes can be found. Gliders, I feel, are NOT something that should be sold through a pet shop. They're an animal that requires long term commitment and a lot of prior education on how to properly care for them. No animal, and especially a glider, should be an impulse buy.
Posted By: LabNGliderMom

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/10/10 12:44 PM

That is a good point- because most SPCA and Humane Societies are NOT equipped to handle sugar glider care and therefore, if a rescue organization is not on their "Call in case of" list, sadly, the ones dropped at these plcaes are often euthanized.

Those who ARE rescues should determine the range they and tehir agents are able to travel in the event of an emergency "came and get these critters" call from an SPCS or Humane Society, and then take the time to track down the ones within their driving radius and get to know them and offer their help in the event that a gldier or gliders are surrendered there.

JMHO, of course...
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/10/10 02:15 PM

The SPCA here in Texas will not place animals with an outside rescue home unless the rescue home is also 501c3. The Humane Society will, though. So, be sure you are checking out those laws.

It never hurts to get information into the hands of such organizations.
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/10/10 03:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom
The SPCA here in Texas will not place animals with an outside rescue home unless the rescue home is also 501c3. The Humane Society will, though. So, be sure you are checking out those laws.

It never hurts to get information into the hands of such organizations.


They won't here. They will only release the animals to a licensed org. We don't have an SPCA only a humane society and they will only release exotic and wild animals to legitimate,licensed rescues. Like some people said though, people can help the licensed rescues with out having a license them-selfs.
Posted By: cyndiekb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/10/10 07:32 PM

I read this at 2 am this morning and slept on it. There are many areas we need work. I moved a lot of gliders from A to B. I never had an escape but I did have an injury. We need to make sure people moving these animals for the groups are covered too. Loss, death, injury. How will those be handled.

I was going to move Chewy (SM'er but turned out not to be) from MI to TN and had a home lined up for him but fell for him and he is still here. The potential new owner was ok with me keeping him. These types of things do need to be addressed legally though.


If something happens to a glider or volunteer who will be responsible? What if a donor says they were stolen from, or attacked? We never really used to think about these things but the world is a changing.....
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/10/10 07:36 PM

You are correct Cyndie, there are more laws made protecting bad people then there are the ones who do good, so the more we do this the right way the better it will be.

Yes the world is changing and so must we. We cannot do the same things we have done in the past, especially with the growing popularity of sugar gliders.
Posted By: PintoLady09

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/11/10 03:20 AM

First, is there a 501 c-3 rescue for gliders in the states?

Originally Posted By: gliderdad79
You are correct Cyndie, there are more laws made protecting bad people then there are the ones who do good, so the more we do this the right way the better it will be.

Yes the world is changing and so must we. We cannot do the same things we have done in the past, especially with the growing popularity of sugar gliders.


Sugar gliders are growing like a wild fire... I agree! I think something really should be done. Maybe even think outside the box, gotta find someway. Maybe even find volunteers in different parts of the country to be part of one BIG rescue group... would there have to be seperate 501 c-3 applications filed if they were all part of the same? It wouldn't be easy, but that way one standard could be set, one name could be looked up and referanced all over the place.

Just an idea...
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/11/10 03:27 AM

Originally Posted By: PintoLady09


Sugar gliders are growing like a wild fire... I agree! I think something really should be done. Maybe even think outside the box, gotta find someway. Maybe even find volunteers in different parts of the country to be part of one BIG rescue group... would there have to be seperate 501 c-3 applications filed if they were all part of the same? It wouldn't be easy, but that way one standard could be set, one name could be looked up and referanced all over the place.

Just an idea...



I think this is how Val - JackieChansMom is set up with her rescue, you can become her agent.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/11/10 04:11 AM

Quote:
I think this is how Val - JackieChansMom is set up with her rescue, you can become her agent.


Does Val have her 501 yet? I thought it was still in the works?
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/11/10 04:47 AM

Val's is still pending. The Southeast Sugar Gliders in FL just announced they are now a 501c, Lucky Glider Rescue in NV is also 501c & SuggieSavers in CO is also 501c.
Posted By: PintoLady09

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/11/10 02:57 PM

I would love to be an agent. I should probably wait until I have a whole house though. I live in DE and there isn't much in the way for gliders here. Finding a good vet is hard enough. There just isn't the experience here and that includes me. At this point I wouldn't know what to do if a glider with special needs came my way except see the vet and come to this community. Considering I just purchased my first 3 back in January.

Don't get me wrong, if a glider needed rescue here, I wouldn't turn it down! I try to help all people with their gliders that I come across. Even if it's to get them off a bad diet or something.

I guess if a glider did come my way, and a 501 was required, it wouldn't hurt to have it just in case... My spca around here are sticklers and don't think they would just hand out gliders without the 501-c... Infact, they are just as quick to euthanize anything they don't know anything about! I hate them by the way!
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/13/10 01:20 PM

I'm sorry that I got side tracked and I didn't get back to this.

I might be wrong but I don't think everyone needs to be 501c3. I think just the major orgs need to be. And to me it is about more than just being legal. To me it is about those who are experienced mentoring those who are just beginning so that the newby will know what the pit falls are. Unfortunately, we often see an "I'm gonna do it and no one can tell me anything" attitude from the newby until the fall hard a time or two. But yes, being legal should open doors that are not open now.

In the past, we have seen railroads set up and one member of the railroad decide, without approval, to keep them. We have seen colored gliders kept while grays are passed on. We have seen sick or hurt gliders not get medical care for weeks or months. We have seen rescuers that didn't keep records or even have vet checks. We have seen rescues that also breed. We have seen rescuers get in over their head and need to be rescued from. We have seen rescues that don't even know how many or what sex is in some cages. And occasionally we have seen people who just saw the attaboys who didn't realize how much work went with it.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to slam rescues. Most of the people were good people with big hearts who had no idea of what is involved in running a rescue operation.

And like many have said here, how long before we see gliders being euthanized in huge numbers? It is coming and could be already happening. That is the reality of having more animals in a system than available homes.

And my opinion is that these legal resue orgs should work hand in hand with the Mill Breeders Project. Reducing the numbers entering the system is the only way to slow down the numbers entering rescues. JMO
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/13/10 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: hushpuppy
...I might be wrong but I don't think everyone needs to be 501c3. I think just the major orgs need to be.

I agree, only a few really need to go that route, then they need to train and work with others under them to accomplish a large chain of rescuers, so to speak. A large network, it could be so productive. And working under the 501s would ensure things being done properly, including vet checks, record-keeping, etc.


Originally Posted By: hushpuppy
...In the past, we have seen railroads set up and one member of the railroad decide, without approval, to keep them. We have seen colored gliders kept while grays are passed on. We have seen sick or hurt gliders not get medical care for weeks or months. We have seen rescuers that didn't keep records or even have vet checks. We have seen rescues that also breed. We have seen rescuers get in over their head and need to be rescued from. We have seen rescues that don't even know how many or what sex is in some cages. And occasionally we have seen people who just saw the attaboys who didn't realize how much work went with it.


That is just sad! With a community as great as this is, with hearts as big as we all have, it just amazes me that this type of thing can happen. I guess I like living in my own little world, but reality does happen.

Originally Posted By: hushpuppy
And occasionally we have seen people who just saw the attaboys who didn't realize how much work went with it.

Doing any of this type of work should never be about the attaboys. If we break our arms patting ourselves on the back, we get nowhere in the end. Anyone involved in any organization needs to understand up front the hard work, and sometimes heartache, that comes along with it (as I'm sure every rescue doesn't end up with a happy ending). But again, that is where the mentoring will come in.

So, what's the first, or next step to get this moving forward?
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/13/10 09:18 PM

Oh Anita, where to even start. You have no idea how glad Eddie and I are that you started this thread or how long over due it is. Thank you so much.

Eddie and I have been talking for a long time about wanting to take GliderCENTRAL in a new direction where Rescues/Rescuers are concerned but when we see no positive change within the community, how can we do that?

Originally Posted By: hushpuppy
...In the past, we have seen railroads set up and one member of the railroad decide, without approval, to keep them. We have seen colored gliders kept while grays are passed on. We have seen sick or hurt gliders not get medical care for weeks or months. We have seen rescuers that didn't keep records or even have vet checks. We have seen rescues that also breed. We have seen rescuers get in over their head and need to be rescued from. We have seen rescues that don't even know how many or what sex is in some cages. And occasionally we have seen people who just saw the attaboys who didn't realize how much work went with it.


Some, if not all, of these things are still happening. Donations do not get where they were intended. Monetary donations are asked to be sent to a middle party rather than directly to the recipient. Why are things like this happening.

I saw a post on another board asking why people were not posting about these situations with specifics. We all know the answer to that question unless we've only been in the glider community for about ten minutes.

It depends on who it is doing the rescuing. Plain and simple. The old double standard is alive and certainly well ensconced in the glider community.

Unless and until the rescuers come together and agree to abide by a set of standards any animal is entitled to, nothing is going to change.

The double standard is also going to have to change by not keeping silent when there is proof. There should never be profit in rescuing any animal regardless of what kind it is.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/13/10 09:56 PM

Quote:
Some, if not all, of these things are still happening. Donations do not get where they were intended. Monetary donations are asked to be sent to a middle party rather than directly to the recipient. Why are things like this happening.


Don't have an answer as to why this is still happening, however the solution to the monetary donations is an easy fix. Any monies for rescues should be paid DIRECTLY to the vet, no monies should you paid to an individual UNLESS they are a 501c3.

Quote:
I saw a post on another board asking why people were not posting about these situations with specifics. We all know the answer to that question unless we've only been in the glider community for about ten minutes.


We have to get past this "Good ole boy" politics in the glider community, and also realize that the ground is even here, there is no one above or below any others. We've come along away in just a few short years, we've learned alot about gliders and the excuses of "this is way it's always been done," doesn't fly anymore.

Quote:
Unless and until the rescuers come together and agree to abide by a set of standards any animal is entitled to, nothing is going to change.


The breeders have unwritten rules as to what constitutes a "reputable breeder," and most people look for that when considering purchasing a glider. Why can't rescues have a code of ethics? There are a few of us that have those already, we've read them and agreed to them and most importantly, abide by them. Maybe this is something that we can make public for all to see as well as who is in agreed to uphold those ethics. This would go a long way in helping a person decide should they want to help a so called rescue or rescue home. And just like breeders, if the rescue is out of compliance with those ethics or fails to uphold them, with proof they too can be place on a beware list. Just a thought.

Quote:
The double standard is also going to have to change by not keeping silent when there is proof. There should never be profit in rescuing any animal regardless of what kind it is.


I agree with this statement 110%, and my belief on this is, if you know something like the above and you choose NOT to speak out about it, you are just as guilty as the person who committed the offense.
Posted By: Paani

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 09:10 AM

I think you might be able to tap a pool of people who COULD be rescue/forever homes if there was an umbrella organization to handle the legalities and state the rules. I know I for one would be happy to set something up at my house and I'm lucky enough to not have to worry about vet bills or what have you. Where I would be reluctant is 1) being new to sugar gliders, I'm still learning about the two I've got now, 2) I hate paperwork and bureaucrats.

If there was a 501 I could fall under then I'd be happy to share the load as long as the rules and restrictions were stated clearly and upfront. For example, all males to be neutered before or on receipt, FDA license if more than 3 breedable females at the house, specified diet for at least XXX months (BML, HPW, whatever), etc.

It sounds to me like you need to prepare the lukewarmers that you could tap in the event of emergency, folks who haven't already committed to huge colonies but who could support increasing their colony at home if given the right guidance and top cover.
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 03:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Paani
I think you might be able to tap a pool of people who COULD be rescue/forever homes if there was an umbrella organization to handle the legalities and state the rules. I know I for one would be happy to set something up at my house and I'm lucky enough to not have to worry about vet bills or what have you. Where I would be reluctant is 1) being new to sugar gliders, I'm still learning about the two I've got now, 2) I hate paperwork and bureaucrats.

If there was a 501 I could fall under then I'd be happy to share the load as long as the rules and restrictions were stated clearly and upfront. For example, all males to be neutered before or on receipt, FDA license if more than 3 breedable females at the house, specified diet for at least XXX months (BML, HPW, whatever), etc.

It sounds to me like you need to prepare the lukewarmers that you could tap in the event of emergency, folks who haven't already committed to huge colonies but who could support increasing their colony at home if given the right guidance and top cover.


You can help the licensed rescues! I help Jamie from suggie savers all the time.
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 04:38 PM

Its called volunteering. Its the same with wildlife rescue. You can either be a licensed rescue or volunteer for a licensed rescue . You cant just go out and call your self a rescue,rescue animals, collect donations...
Posted By: cyndiekb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 08:18 PM

I loves Jamie~!! note to self check time to catch up with her!


I can't/wont take in gliders but I do help with rail roads and funds as I can.

We have breeders who should have USDA licenses that don't here on the forum so not sure how the rescues would be expected to have them. We know we don't fix the females and even if they have 4 that doesn't mean they are breeding (since they shouldn't by standard) so should they be required to get a license? Maybe a different type of rescue license I don't know about that I never tried to do get in to that part.

What I would like to see is a standard sheet for the person picking up a glider. Stating what they are getting, what is expected to happen with the gliders. Where they are going, what goes with them, in the event of injury or escape what the plan is. I railroaded a glider one time that I should have stopped at my vet and had put down. That poor glider died a slow painful death after being attacked by a colony. I cried the entire trip knowing she needed to be helped across the bridge but I was not my place to do that. OR was it. I will if it ever happens again simply because that is what she needed most from me and I failed her. We need protection for glider in this situation and the people moving them.
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By: cyndiekb

We have breeders who should have USDA licenses that don't here on the forum so not sure how the rescues would be expected to have them.


You are right and thats wrong! If you want to be respected for what you do, it should be 100% legit IMO.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 10:22 PM

We have some Care Sheets and Inventory Sheets over at A4G for use when moving gliders.

Care Sheets

Inventory Sheet


These were created for anyone to use.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 10:24 PM

And CKB,

Quote:
OR was it.


Yes, in this case I do think it was your place but should have come with full documentation from the vet as to the circumstances and such. There is never any reason to allow any animal to suffer when there is no hope of a sustained quality life.
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 10:36 PM

Hindsight is always 20/20, and I'm sure that Cyndie has beat herself up over her decision more than we will ever know. We all know how much she loves these little ones.

I would hate to see us get sidetracked here. You know how easily that happens to us ummm mature ladies roflmao

Posted By: Tish84

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 10:43 PM

USDA does help with protocols, but I believe a 501c3 is better as it's protocols seem to be more stringent. (Case in point....PPP is USDA, but not 501c3; they;d never qualify going that route plus I'm sure it wouldn't be lucrative for them and we all know they are all about the $$)
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 11:00 PM

Regardless of which way you go rescues or breeder, if you are going to do it you should have to follow all the laws. A lot of the non-profit rescues that deal with animals(wild or exotic) are also USDA licensed.
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 11:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Tish84
USDA does help with protocols, but I believe a 501c3 is better as it's protocols seem to be more stringent. (Case in point....PPP is USDA, but not 501c3; they;d never qualify going that route plus I'm sure it wouldn't be lucrative for them and we all know they are all about the $$)


Um Tish, Perfect Pocket Pets is incorporated as a for profit business in the state of Florida. To be 501c3 an organization would first need to incorporate as an non profit in their state and then file with the IRS to become a charitable org. They are both corportations and they are both businesses, but one is for profit and the other is more for charity. Hmmm, I don't know if that is clear or if I just made it worse.
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 11:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Tish84
USDA does help with protocols, but I believe a 501c3 is better as it's protocols seem to be more stringent. (Case in point....PPP is USDA, but not 501c3; they;d never qualify going that route plus I'm sure it wouldn't be lucrative for them and we all know they are all about the $$)


You are comparing apples and oranges here. A 501(c)3 status org and a USDA licensed business are totally different.
Posted By: cyndiekb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 11:25 PM

Is the 501c3 rescue required to also have a USDA license??
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 11:37 PM

No, the 501c3 is simply a financial/business structure. It has nothing to do with USDA. You could open many kinds of charitable organizations that have nothing to do with animals. So USDA license would not be required in your 501c3 application.
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 11:38 PM

It depends on what you are rescuing and what you do with the rescue(charge or donation).
Posted By: cyndiekb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 11:40 PM

Dancing I already knew that but this was a few years ago when I second guessed my position/power and cared how I was perceived in the community. Had I not been taking that glider to Bourbon for her to care for it I would have made the vet stop. Bourbon did agree with me when I got there it would have been the right thing to do. These things are how we learn.

These are why we need a standard. So many jump in with all heart and no experience. I hope no one else has to go through that like I did but IF they do we need ways to cover the person.
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 11:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Catman
It depends on what you are rescuing and what you do with the rescue(charge or donation).


I was under the impression, if you have your 501 you cannot 'require' a donation??
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/14/10 11:53 PM

Originally Posted By: gliderdad79
Originally Posted By: Catman
It depends on what you are rescuing and what you do with the rescue(charge or donation).


I was under the impression, if you have your 501 you cannot 'require' a donation??


You can "charge a price" or "accept a donation".
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 12:00 AM

If you go to a non-profit humane society they still require a "donation" or adoption fee. I'm not really sure what the difference is.
Posted By: cyndiekb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 12:07 AM

Our local pound is 501c3 and it is 65 bucks to get a dog. They say it covers the spay/neuter cost but you pay it even if the animal is already fixed when it was donated. So I understand the charging, If no money comes in you cant keep feeding the fur ones. What is reasonable operating expense should be covered. The 501 should not line pockets though. When We had the SRR I had a business major tell me there is a lot of money in non profits and they would have loved to show me how I could do it. I told then we are 100% NOT PAID sorry smile. People like Jamie and Val are in this for the gliders. At the same time we should not expect them to starve because we think they should spend their own money feeding the animals.

I have the land and thought about putting up a warehouse type facility for gliders. Then I thought I have to feed and clean and vet care everyone ( I call it my momentary brain toot) That is not my roll. I like many others here want to be the beams of support for those who do have the calling to rescue.


I just wonder by law is the rescue still required to have a license per USDA because they do have more that 4 females in house at any given time. We know not all males come fixed. It is just the wording and play on the rules.
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 12:33 AM

They way i read the USDA laws
"Any person operating or desiring to operate as a dealer must have
a valid Class A (breeder) or Class B (broker) license. [2.1(a)(1)].

selling of any wild/exotic animals, excluding hoofstock,
for:
< pets
< exhibition
< researc"

The law does not state how many breeding females in this part of the law, just if you sell exotic or wild animals. This explains why my local pet store wont even sell 1 glider.

It does say "NOTE: Persons with 3 or less breeding females are
exempt"

So if your not breeding them, I think you are exempt to some extent.
Posted By: Tish84

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 12:35 AM

The part that confuses me is that even if they are not actively breeding aren't they still breedable if not fixed. At that point do they still count in that definition.
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 12:39 AM

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/manuals/dealer/requirements.pdf
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 12:40 AM

They say "breeding females " not breedable(sp?).
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 12:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Tish84
The part that confuses me is that even if they are not actively breeding aren't they still breedable if not fixed. At that point do they still count in that definition.


I could be wrong, but if I am remembering correctly at the 05 SGGA the USDA speaker said you will get a different answer from each inspector. I think I remember him saying if you have more than 3 females that could breed, it would be best to have your USDA license.
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 12:44 AM

I wish I could remember which SGGA the USDA spokesperson explained the change to us, but my ole brain won't bring it right now.

I do remember they were very specific that if you have more than three females able to breed on the premises, and you are a breeder, you must have a USDA license.

I know that Teresa was there and probably Cyndiekb so correct me if I am wrong. I remember being astounded that different species were counted together rather than separately.

Or have I lost it with the explanation.
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 12:50 AM

Originally Posted By: KarenE
I wish I could remember which SGGA the USDA spokesperson explained the change to us, but my ole brain won't bring it right now.

I do remember they were very specific that if you have more than three females able to breed on the premises, and you are a breeder, you must have a USDA license.

I know that Teresa was there and probably Cyndiekb so correct me if I am wrong. I remember being astounded that different species were counted together rather than separately.

Or have I lost it with the explanation.


That was 05 wink
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 12:53 AM

Thats not how the law reads. I could have 1 cage with 4-5 females and not have to have a USDA license. It clearly states "breeding females" and not sexually mature females.
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 12:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Catman
Thats not how the law reads. I could have 1 cage with 4-5 females and not have to have a USDA license. It clearly states "breeding females" and not sexually mature females.



Introduce a male into your household and those 4-5 females become breedable.
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 01:02 AM

Originally Posted By: gliderdad79


That was 05 wink


'05 was a very very busy year roflmao
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 01:03 AM

[quote=gliderdad79
I could be wrong, but if I am remembering correctly at the 05 SGGA the USDA speaker said you will get a different answer from each inspector. [/quote]

Yep and they all have their own little pet peeves
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 01:17 AM

The way I recall it, ANY female in your home is accounted for.

It was asked, what if I have one dog, one rat and two sugar gliders, all female, will I have to have a license, the answer was yes.

However, it DOES depend on your area, even though I had more than three breeding females AND owned a pet store with live animals, I was told I did NOT need to apply for a USDA license in our part unless I was an exhibitor or had a large bird aviary. dunno

Now that I have moved, I will be applying once again for my license.

Yes, it IS supposed to be the SAME across the board, but it isnt. Not with the USDA...that is how so many people like PPP and others like them, get away with things.
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 01:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
The way I recall it, ANY female in your home is accounted for.

It was asked, what if I have one dog, one rat and two sugar gliders, all female, will I have to have a license, the answer was yes.


Exactly, Peggy. That is what amazed us all. You could have any mix of female species but once the number went over three, you had to have that good ole USDA license.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 02:16 AM

When I moved down here, I went over to the USDA office to see about getting licensed. (there is one only 8 miles from me) I ran in to several snags. First one was, they had no idea what I was even talking about. They deal (down here) with horses, cattle, sheep etc (farm livestock) issues. This is farm country. They also said they had NO idea who would even be able to do an inspection for me.

I had to explain to them what a sugar glider was and show them the USDA license book. I then got that "Oh you're the monkey lady". Ummm, no, I don't have any monkeys. shakehead I wondered who told them I had monkeys? Very small community down here.

They looked at the book and they interpreted it to be "three BREEDING females" as written, not breedable. I got really specific with them and explained that I had a number of gliders that were in non breeding pairs as well as some that were in breeding situations.
Again, I was told "breeding females". They said they would not count female joeys as they were not mature enough to breed even if they were intended to become breeders once old enough or would not count them until they were old enough and in a breeding situation.

I also told them that I often had rescues come in that were "temporary" until homes could be found for them. I was told that as long as I was not charging to rehome the rescues, then I did not need a breeder or dealer/broker license. This is one of the reasons I don't charge for the rescues I place. I will allow the new owner to pay the vet directly for any neuters that need to be done but I don't charge for the gliders.


I guess just as in most things, finding consistancy across the board is next to impossible. This is one of the problems faced with dealing with the mills. It all depends on WHO goes out to inspect them and their interpretation of what is "suitable living conditions" for the animals.
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 12:27 PM

it was dr slaughter who is a regional supervisor for the usda it was at Judies sgga in kansas city as he was trying to get his agents to raise the bar and was asking for what we thought was a minimum standard for them to go by,

also speaking with several inspectors, and yes they do pop in once in awhile if they KNOW you do rescue, as was told to us, is that we as rescuers fall into a different catagory as long as we don't charge for them. and we have revolving doors, it depends on your inspector as the rescue area is a gray area.

with that being said, I do know of a rescue home 501c3 who was made to get their usda license. a brokers license, because they do charge a flat adoption fee which covers neuters and and their vet expenses, feed , supplies etc.regardless if the gliders need neutered or not,

anyone who does rescues knows there is never any money in it, and you are always in the red.

we also were told something similar, which is why many of us, if we accept any money it is not to us, but our vets. if their money only went to their vet, then they would not have had to get a brokers license.

as for 501c3 not be able to demand donations.. well that is a matter of wording. they are however allowed to charge an adoption fee, and their paperwork must show that all monies coming in is going to the RESCUE gliders.

as for all rescues should be required to 501c3, if they don't take in any money, the 501c3 is of no use.

Jamie has had hers for several years and basically without getting grants or sponsors they are basically useless. (except for the people that look for 501c3 rescues specifically.

I didn't see the post where dancing responded to CKB so I can't respond to it.

But I do understand what she was going through at the time, we as rescuers see it alot , no slam on CKB at all, so please don't take it that way.. but many people TRY to do rescue, it usually only takes a few times before they realize the intensity ,and the costs, not only to the pocket, but to the heart, as CKB learned, it leaves an impacting mark in your heart for life, if someone wants to try to rescue, I help them and support them, but also I try to help guide them as well and offer many resources for help. but still not everyone can do it, but if people don't try, they will never know what their limits are. then you have those that after starting, doesn't want to let go of them, although with the best intentions, it is not practical. I have worked with a few after taking in their first couple of cases and not wanting to let go, they realized that rescue isn't for them. They love their babies which have become pets. And they don't claim to be rescuers.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 02:11 PM

I absolutely was not trying to slam CKB at all. I know the self doubts. I was just saying that from my point and for her future reference (and other's that might find themselves in a similar situation), that I FEEL that while a glider is in your care, YOU are the one that has to make the medical decisions for that glider at that time. In CKB's case, it was an immediate situation that she could have made the choice. This is one of those painful situations that we learn from and grow. From these types of things, we learn and adapt how we "do things". I'm sorry you had to go through that CKB. I hope no one else ever has to be in that situation.
Posted By: cyndiekb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 11:20 PM

I knew you weren't slamming me smile I just used that as an example so others understand why we need to have a set way to get this stuff done. The most important this is always the welfare of the glider for me. I just had to learn I do have the power to make choices for gliders in my possession even if they are NOT mine and other people may not always like the option I take.

I think there should be a type of rescue license for the glider rescues. Maybe the broker one does fit. I think it was Mere that had rescues and breeders and had to have 2 different sets of records for her inspector. Of course I also wish we could chip the gliders for better tracking but them things are still to big for the lil furbutts IMO
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 11:40 PM

I agree with everything you have said Cyndie. Situations like you were put in should never take place. The person who had the glider prior to you, IMO, should have made sure that little one received vet care and was helped over the Bridge, if that was the advice given by the vet. It NEVER should have gotten to you. What's done is done though.

As far as rescuers, I believe because of the wonderful job PPP is doing (yes that sure was sarcastic) along with some other reputable mills (again sarcastic), rescuers will have to agree to abide by standards of animal husbandary, record keeping and making sure the animals are given proper vet care in order to continue taking them in.

Some do an excellent job, but we all know others do not. It is not acceptable to rehome/place a sick glider and expect the new owner to make sure the glider gets proper vet care.

As far as I'm concerned, if a current rescuer feels they do not need to be held accountable for what happens in their home, then they do not deserve the support of the glider community regardless of who they are. If you are running a clean rescue operation, there should be no reason to fear a few guidelines that everyone else agrees to follow.
Posted By: Catman

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/15/10 11:56 PM

I have no clue what half this post is about and I'm not bashing anyone.I do know that if Jamie didn't have a license, the shelters would not call her when they get gliders dumped there. They would just put the gliders to sleep frown.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 01:24 AM

Quote:
It is not acceptable to rehome/place a sick glider and expect the new owner to make sure the glider gets proper vet care.


Karen, this would depend on the situation and the new owner.

For example, a rescuer (just an example) such as Val, gets in rescues. They had to be treated for parasites. They were given vet attention and placed on meds. Now, some had homes waiting. These homes were fully informed of the health situation and because they had fewer gliders to care for, they were in a better position to take the gliders and continue with the meds. Full disclosure was made to the new owner, the new owner fully understands the course of treatment and has a vet who can take over if the need arises and for follow up care. So Val lets them go to their new home but continues to be available for support to help incase the new owner has problems.

In cases like this, I see no reason to not let the gliders go to their new homes.
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 01:30 AM

I agree. Situations where the new owner had full knowledge of what they were getting is one thing.

Placing gliders when the new owner either is given no information to expect there is anything wrong with the glider/s or giving false information, is certainly not acceptable.

Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 02:21 AM

Originally Posted By: KarenE
As far as I'm concerned, if a current rescuer feels they do not need to be held accountable for what happens in their home, then they do not deserve the support of the glider community regardless of who they are. If you are running a clean rescue operation, there should be no reason to fear a few guidelines that everyone else agrees to follow.


clap

I wanted to add Dancing, that in the example you gave, the first rescue home provided the initial vet care AND fully disclosed the situation and evaluated the receiving home to assure it was ready and able to continue the care. I think that would be fine, it's those that move them on without getting the intial vet care to unknowing homes that pose the problems.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 03:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Dancing
Quote:
It is not acceptable to rehome/place a sick glider and expect the new owner to make sure the glider gets proper vet care.


Karen, this would depend on the situation and the new owner.

For example, a rescuer (just an example) such as Val, gets in rescues. They had to be treated for parasites. They were given vet attention and placed on meds. Now, some had homes waiting. These homes were fully informed of the health situation and because they had fewer gliders to care for, they were in a better position to take the gliders and continue with the meds. Full disclosure was made to the new owner, the new owner fully understands the course of treatment and has a vet who can take over if the need arises and for follow up care. So Val lets them go to their new home but continues to be available for support to help incase the new owner has problems.

In cases like this, I see no reason to not let the gliders go to their new homes.


I agree with the first half of this, but not the latter.

I will NOT release a rescue without a clean bill of health, I just can't take the chance that the new will continue to dispense the meds, clean as required, or other measures to ensure the glider is free from parasites/illnesses. Once out of my hands, I have no control over what the new home will or won't do.

Placing a glider is easy, making sure it's new home will be a forever home, not so much.

If the glider is healthy, free from illness/parasites, the new owner doesn't have the burden of the extra work that's required of a sick glider, you raise the success rate of that home being permanent for the glider.

A permanent home for a glider is what makes a rescue a success, not just removing it from a bad sitution. JMHO
Posted By: Tish84

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 03:26 AM

I agree with Tammy especially if this person has other animals.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 03:29 AM

So Tammy, you believe you are the only one able to take proper care of a sick glider? What if you place a healthy glider who then gets sick a month later? Is that person with the glider any less capable of taking care of it?

There have been others before you that felt no one could care for the gliders as good as they could. One got really overwhelmed and we were able to help her get down to a manageable number but it was REALLY hard on her to let them go. The other, well, she is a horder and had to shut down her rescue (or it was shut down for her by the city).

If you can't trust a home to care for what MIGHT happen with gliders, then you shouldn't place gliders in that home. If the home is fully prepared for an ill glider but only has THOSE gliders to care for, compared to potentially 20,30 or more other rescues, then why shouldn't they?
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 03:39 AM

I dont think that is what Tammy said at all. I think she prefers to make sure HERSELF that proper care is given just in case. A matter of preference, not that a new owner CANT.
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 03:56 AM

Both Val and Tammy's method would be acceptable, IMO, as the new owners would have knowledge of the glider/s condition as well as medical treatment prior to their receiving.

Expecting new owners to take on glider/s with medical issues without full disclosure should never happen.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 04:11 AM

Quote:
So Tammy, you believe you are the only one able to take proper care of a sick glider? What if you place a healthy glider who then gets sick a month later? Is that person with the glider any less capable of taking care of it?


No Teresa, that is not what I think nor did I say that. The post I made was about ME, how and why I do things, it was NOT directed against anyone or anything.

I said that I will only place a healthy glider, it is my standard practice and I listed my reasons for it.

If a glider I've placed should become ill a month or so later, I fully expect the new owner to be responsible for that glider but also as part of my adoption procedure, I offer ongoing support.
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 04:11 AM

Quote:
So Tammy, you believe you are the only one able to take proper care of a sick glider?


That absolutely is NOT what Tammy is saying, and I'm sure most of us know it. I find this line of thinking absurd.

I can say that I absolutely would NEVER knowingly let a sick or injured glider leave my home. There are many reasons for this, none of which are about ME or my ability to care for gliders, and ALL of which are about the GLIDER and the new owner.

1) STRESS of moving to yet ANOTHER home could EXACERBATE the situation. Am I the only person in this community who has had a glider with parasites who began to have diarrhea which lead to SM of the cloaca? No, a glider being actively treated for a parasite will NOT leave my home until I have several negative parasite tests. The potential new home would be kept informed, and they would receive written, documented proof from my VET that the glider had been properly treated and was now free of an active parasitic infection.

Moving a glider who is being treated is not MY idea of responsible care. This could cause stress sufficient to activate a SECONDARY parasitic infection OR to slow the rate of recovery. (Stress and recovery rates are one of the topics we will be discussing/learning about at the RRRoundup this weekend). Doing anything that might exacerbate the situation or that might slow healing is not in the GLIDER's best interest. It does not matter if the new home is a parasitologist with 48674894 years of experience. The potential devastating effects of the stress caused by the move are not a risk I am willing to take.

Quote:
What if you place a healthy glider who then gets sick a month later? Is that person with the glider any less capable of taking care of it?


The issue is NOT AT ALL who takes better care of gliders. The issue is that you have a SICK glider. It is always a risk that a glider will test positive for a parasite after arriving at a new home. However, everyone who adopts from me knows two things: 1) The glider tested negative HERE before leaving and they have documentation from my vet stating as much and 2) I WILL help them with the cost and burden of treating if they have a glider test positive in their first wellness check. This is one of the reasons I REQUIRE documented proof of a wellness check within 10 days of the glider arriving at it's new home. It is part of my contract.

This risk exists and we prepare new homes for the risk. I do NOT send them a sick glider.

2) Because I know that a "simple" illness can go from "simple" to "lethal" very quickly in a glider, I cannot in good conscience send the glider away during treatment. As Tammy said - I have no control once the glider leaves my home. I don't know how everyone else works except what I have seen here. But when you adopt from ME, you are getting a HEALTHY glider that I have worked and worked with to make a great PET. In general, people are very excited to adopt from me. They have pictures and updates on their new gliders for a while before they come home, just like if they were purchasing a joey from a reputable breeder.
Now, If I send a sick or injured glider to the home of a person who is very excited to get the glider, and the glider's situation is escalated and then the glider DIES, I would feel just terrible. I cannot in good conscience risk this with the PERSON that I have come to know and care about during the adoption process. It is difficult to hear that your hoped for baby has passed away, but not nearly as difficult as having it happen in your home. I will save someone that pain when I can. In cases like this, it is very easy to eliminate the risk. The glider gets well here before it leaves, PERIOD.

3) Placing an additional financial burden upon an adoptive home is not really in any adoptive home's plans. One of the benefits to being a legally registered and licensed rescue home is that I get a discount on vet care, so it is more cost effective for ME to continue the treatment. Often, adoptive homes will help with the care, other times they won't. Either way, the glider sees a very experienced vet for a better price. Again, just responsible care IMO.

4) Continuity of care is a big deal in the human health field, and I carry that over to my glider care. It is in the glider's best interest to be followed by the same vet when possible during the course of treatment.

5) In the specific example mentioned, we are talking about a parasite infection. No, I will not spread parasites to another home. Containment is essential in elimination. The gliders will remain in my home in quarantine until they are no longer taking unwanted guests with them to their new home. Again, this is about people. Parasites are zoonotic. I will not knowingly expose another person or their family to an active infection. Anyone watch the show "Monsters Inside Me?" It is a fascinating program about the devastation that PARASITES cause to humans.

6) Offering HEALTHY pet gliders is one of my policies and I am proud of it. I don't think I provide better care than an adoptive home will. But, I absolutely will finish what I started. People desire to adopt from me because they know they are getting quality in their adoption process as well as getting to adopt some babies that need a forever home. These people deserve my respect and consideration. They deserve my hard work. They deserve to get what I advertise. I won't lower my standard because someone on a glider board accuses me of "thinking I'm better than others." The truth is, I just really love gliders and love people. I will do my best to do right by both in the daily business of running my rescue home.


I could go on and on, but the end result is the same. It is standard policy here that a sick or injured glider does not leave. This is in the glider's and new owner's best interest IMO. There is a huge difference between a critical situation (active infection, parasite, etc) and a stable situation. I will (and have) rehome gliders with special needs (seizures, mobility issues, kidney/liver issues) and trust their new home to continue their medical care. I will not rehome a glider that is actively undergoing treatment and is not labeled as "stable condition" by my vet. We don't relocate humans from one treatment facility to another until they are stable either. This is nothing new.
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 04:28 AM

Excellent post, Val.

If Eddie and I could be sure all rescuers were operating as you and Tammy do, I think it would be pretty safe to say GliderCENTRAL's policy towards rescues might change.


Quote:
I won't lower my standard because someone on a glider board accuses me of "thinking I'm better than others."


I certainly hope that you don't. Whoever said it, I pray it was not a rescuer still taking in gliders shakehead
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 02:20 PM

Excellent posts Tammy and Val. And that pretty much sums up the reason that I started this post. There is just a lot that a new person who wants to rescue needs to think about before they start out. It is so much more than just moving gliders from point A to point B. It is more that just financial accountability. It is a whole package with a standard of excellence. And we as a group need to do as much as we can to help the newbieís.

Letís look at the railroad CyndieKB made where she picked up a glider that she felt needed to be put down. If I had been the one driving, I would not have made that decision. I don't feel like I have the expertise to make that decision. And OMGosh, it tears me up to even think about it. So I am a volunteer that helps rescues move gliders, but the hard life and death choices need to left up to those who have the background to make them. And this is just another example of where we need more experienced hands on people doing rescue work. Because I donít know if someone who just started out would be able to make those kinds of gut wrenching choices alone. And when the time comes, they will need the support of those who have been there and done that.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 05:53 PM

Val, Tammy, you both made excellent points.

Tammy, I was not trying to attack you, and I should have put it as a "hypothetical" rescuer, instead of directing my question directly to you. I'm sorry, I reread and realized it did seem as a personal attack. It truly was not meant to be.

I just want to make clear, I do not send on sick/injured gliders either.

I do want to ask then, do you feel, and why, that it is alright for an owner to send an ill glider halfway across the country to get it to a rescue home?

Also, if the "new home" was two blocks from you, and have no other gliders in their home (making quarentine a non-issue) would that change your position?

Also, Val, I specifically am asking you this one. I know you drive a very long distance to go to your vet. Is it any less stressful for the sick glider to make that drive back and forth to your vet? Do you have a vet close by that can treat gliders?

I feel it is imperative to have a vet within an hour's reach of the rescue home. We all know how fast these gliders can go from bad to dead without prompt vet intervention.
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 07:14 PM

Quote:
Do you have a vet close by that can treat gliders?


Yes I do. I have been using Dr. Pearson in Amarillo for a long while. He stays in close contact with Dr. Walsh and is making great progress in learning about gliders. He is one of the most fantastic emergency surgeons I have ever worked with.

I still drive to Tulsa every 6-10 weeks, as Dr. Walsh is the vet for my special needs babies and any difficult cases. ALL of my neuters are done in Tulsa. Dr. Walsh is my vet of choice, and I would love it if he were closer. He is not, so I found a vet nearby who was willing and capable of learning and have been working with him for over a year.

Posted By: cyndiekb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 09:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Dancing

I feel it is imperative to have a vet within an hour's reach of the rescue home.



In a perfect world YES I agree but in reality we just don't all have glider knowledgeable vets at arms reach. Mine are all over an hour and a half away. Does that mean I should not rescue? I would, depending on the situation, and would not let the vet being that far out stop me. I wont be a rescue home though so it is not a big issue for me. I am just happy we have rescues that can, and will make the trip to the vet since we also know we have others that wont.

When I win the lotto we will have vets placed in facility smile come on multi million winning ticket!
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/16/10 11:05 PM

Val, that's really fantastic. I admit, I have worried about Dr. Walsh being so far from you. I'm very relieved and happy that you do have a vet close.

CKB, no, it doesn't mean you shouldn't rescue but if we are talking about "rescue homes", I believe they should have a vet fairly close by. So much can and often does go wrong with rescues that are surrendered. I have 2 vets I can go to in an emergency that are 20 miles (time depends on how fast I drive there, made it in 12 minutes once!) and then another vet (Dr. Bradley) that is an hour and 20 minutes from me. Dr. Bradley is by far more experienced but, when time is crutial for life supportive measures, I do have those closer I can go to.

Having a vet that can/will do life supportive care until the glider can be stabalized enough to get to the more experienced yet further away vet is important. Especially when the distance is what Val has with Dr. Walsh. That's all I was getting at.
Posted By: mary h

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/17/10 03:38 AM

...I guess I'm very lucky to have two vets. Since we live out here in the country it takes about an hour to get to each one...but...any thing serious and I can get two opinions. I like that.

Mary
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/17/10 03:40 AM

Val, thank you for that post. Very informative!
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/17/10 04:29 AM

wave Mary

Good to see you join in this conversation. You probably have some good info to share.
Posted By: cyndiekb

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/23/10 06:58 PM

Sorry this thread got on page 2.

Some thoughts on rescue homes.

Would we support one that also has breeders? (me personally I would not recommend doing both breeding and rescuing) I would think a USDA license would have to be 100% mandatory for anyone doing both.


I think before anyone is allowed to ask for donations they should be in compliance with some sort of the community standards. I also think neutering males is a given standard across the board and should be done before moving rescues.

On top of that we must determine the difference between a rescue, and rehome as well as a breeder, broker, and rescuer.

I am of the opinion these terms are being used to loosely. Thus causing conflict betweens some members.
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Professional Rescues - 02/23/10 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: cyndiekb
Sorry this thread got on page 2.

Some thoughts on rescue homes.

Would we support one that also has breeders? (me personally I would not recommend doing both breeding and rescuing) I would think a USDA license would have to be 100% mandatory for anyone doing both.

I agree, Cindie, it is probably not a good idea to have breeding and rescuing in the same home unless there is enough room to give them their own designated areas plus designated areas for quarantine when necessary. We are talkin about a very big home or a good size separate facility.

I completely agree with the USDA license.



I think before anyone is allowed to ask for donations they should be in compliance with some sort of the community standards. I also think neutering males is a given standard across the board and should be done before moving rescues.

Once again, I agree. The community is now so saturated with unwanted gliders, there has to be standards set for established rescuers as well as those popping up.

On top of that we must determine the difference between a rescue, and rehome as well as a breeder, broker, and rescuer.

I am of the opinion these terms are being used to loosely. Thus causing conflict betweens some members.



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