GliderCENTRAL

Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders?

Posted By: GliderFun

Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 05:37 PM

I'm not sure if this is the right section. I started writing this thread in "Fact or Fiction" but thought this may be better suited for this thread.



I recently contacted LGRS after reading one of their petfinder ads and being appalled by the misinformation that may ACTUALLY be contributing to people dumping, re-homing, euthanizing, surrendering and overall abandoning their sugar gliders.

LGRS is a well known sugar glider rescue and sanctuary (from what I understand, please correct me if I'm wrong). I haven't done significant research on this rescue to find out if they are 100% on the up and up or not, but from the small amount of research I have done, they seem to have a large online presence and most of their information is correct. They SEEM to be in it for the good of the glider, but yet, I find this. So I am unsure at this point, what to think.

They post in their ads:

"We do not ship animals because it is not healthy for them and can cause death and suffering."


I definitely think any well respected and legitimate rescue with plenty of online presence should NOT put misinformation like this in their ads.

I think it will hurt sugar gliders in the long run causing more to be abandoned when their owners, who must move for whatever reason, stumble upon this when searching for options in order to keep their beloved pets.

I think that if someone is on the fence about keeping their glider(s) or re-homing their glider due to the fact that they are worried about shipping their glider(s), this information from a supposed "reputable" source would be enough to push them over the edge and re-home, sell, euthanize, surrender, and abandon their sugar glider(s).

I have shipped my sugar gliders a number of times across the country in all kinds of weather and have never once had any issues. I move a lot so it's important to find the safest method to transport my gliders and I found that shipping via airline is not only quick, effective, but also extremely safe.

I know of several people who have shipped gliders for a number of years without incident.


Upon contacting them with my concerns for the sugar glider population I received a very short, vague, email from them. Also very disappointing. PM me for the info.

That was all. I did not receive anything on my concerns that their misinformation may be hurting sugar gliders all over the county, they did not address anything except that. I find that to be very unprofessional and for a rescue organization that is supposed to be reputable and that makes me uncomfortable about ever donating or supporting them in the future.

Now let me also address THEIR concerns. Yes, it is possible that a sugar glider can suffer and die during shipping.

It is also possible that we can be struck by lightening while getting struck by a car while walking across the street. It's possible but I feel that it's very unlikely in this day and age.

If the rescue does not want to deal with the HASSLE and EXPENSE of shipping sugar gliders, then that's another story, put THAT in your ad, but please don't put misinformation that may lead to the suffering of the very animal you came into existence to protect.


I was going to let it go, but after "sleeping on it" last night, I just can't sit back while a reputable and known source is possibly the cause for some gliders suffering and not caring about it (as per the response I received).





What are your thoughts on shipping sugar gliders?
What are your thoughts on the rest of this topic?

The above is my opinion on shipping gliders and my opinion on LGRS at this point. I just have concerns on the welfare of the gliders.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 06:07 PM

I have not had any personal experience with Ed and Gail, but from what I have seen over in GG they are wonderful suggie slaves. One of the main reasons they do not ship is because before adopting a glider the new owner has to take several classes at their rescue. They are shown the proper care and husbandry needed to take care of Gliders. Honestly I don't think it is that awful of an idea not to ship. Yes, a lot of people ship and it isn't that bad, but there are also risks. I have a lot of respect for what Ed and Gail do. They have over 95 gliders among other animals at their rescue yet still time find time to help new owners over on GG.
Posted By: animalloversfb

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 06:08 PM

I would suggest that you call and talk to them, and hopefully you will get more answers as to why they feel that way.

I know the main reason they do not ship is because they require all adopters to visit their Sanctuary and participate in a workshop on glider care. They want to meet the people they adopt to and be there to introduce the gliders to their new families. It is also harder to follow up or get the gliders back if the home doesn't work out if shipping has to be arranged(& paid for!)

I don't think that their statement is going to cause gliders to be given up - there is a difference when you are shipping your pets on the same flight you are on(aka with people they're familiar with), then to ship them to a completely new home. Yes, shipping can be done safely, but even well-recommended carriers can make mistakes or not follow protocol. And even if everything goes right, the sights/sounds of being at an airport and on the plane probably is very frightening to many animals.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not believe any of the sugar glider rescues out there ship on a regular basis - they typically arrange railroads or stick to local adoptions. I'd love if LGRS railroaded, but I completely respect the reasons they do not.
Posted By: AbtZooGirl

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 06:08 PM

Originally Posted By: GliderFun


They post in their ads:

"We do not ship animals because it is not healthy for them and can cause death and suffering."


I know of several people who have shipped gliders for a number of years without incident.

Upon contacting them with my concerns for the sugar glider population I received a very short, vague, email from them. Also very disappointing.

"we do not ship gliders like cargo or as online breeders do."


What are your thoughts on shipping sugar gliders?
What are your thoughts on the rest of this topic?


I'm quoting the parts I feel I might have knowledge enough to respond about... I don't know the owners of LGRS like some people do so I can only speak about my opinion and the things I've heard :\ Which I guess is what most of us do anyway! :D

1.) I think the suffering portion of their statement might more refer to the stress than can occur during the shipping process.

2.) Yes plenty of people have had no issues per well adjusted gliders. They seem to take the stress of shipment rather well. In this case, I think we're talking about rescues though right? Rescues may not always be adjusted well enough, confident enough, or whatever... to handle the traumatic experience it COULD be to ship. There ARE some people who've had problems with shipping but it seems to me that's the exception and not the rule, however it is up to the owners of the rescue to decide what is a safe method of delivering the glider to the right home. I'm sure, also, that it has more to do with wanting to meet potential owners also.

3.) The brief response is probably due to the fact that they get a lot of emails in general and would rather focus on the people interested in offering a home than those who have a problem with a practice they've used for so long.

4.) I don't like the idea of shipping gliders because it seems like a 'tag'em and bag'em" method. It's impersonal to me.. I wouldn't personally do it. I would rather drive the distance. It makes it worth seeing where the glider came from.

I hope what I had to say offered some perspective.

Lindsay
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 06:33 PM

Thanks everyone.

I personally have absolutely no problem not allowing shipping as a rescue, not wanting to ship rescues etc.

I respect that they want to meet the potential adopters, have them attend classes, not wanting to POTENTIALLY stress out rescues (though a 5 hour road trip would also stress them), etc. Those are all great reasons not to ship gliders.



But why not say that in the ad instead of their current statement?



I don't agree with their current statement. At one point I did take in a few gliders from homes that couldn't keep them.

I heard on 2 occasions in my BRIEF time taking in a few gliders that, "I am moving, they can't come with me, I'm flying and it's unsafe to ship my gliders".

I hear that a lot with dogs and cats and I participated in dog/cat rescue for some time.



I think that it's especially important for our rescues to spread TRUTHS and not potential misinformation that could potentially cause people to dump their gliders (as they did in the case of the two I took in).



The times I shipped my gliders I was not on the same plane. I drove all my trips and never flew because I needed to drive with a moving van. My gliders flew either before me or after me depending on whether or not I had someone at the destination that I trusted with my gliders.

I believe pets are not disposable and you don't just dump them when you move, etc. I believe in doing the proper research on what to do with your pets in case you have to move, even if you don't think you are going to have to move. Shipping is a safe and viable option in order to not dump your family members.


I see it every day, "I don't want to bring my [dog, cat, etc] with me because I don't want my animal to suffer in the plane"

Those people dump their animals at shelters, on craigslist, etc.

Maybe I'm jaded from being part of rescue organizations and seeing this all the time, but I feel their statement can cause more bad than good and is completely unnecessary.

They seem to be pro education, it would be nice for them to EDUCATE on the FACTS of shipping. And if they are unaware of the FACTS, then they should do some more research. I read through their website and they did extensive dietary research and other research, but they are lacking in this department.


I also want to add I have nothing against their rescue, practices, etc. I think they stand for the good of the glider.

Maybe they are just uneducated with shipping gliders and don't realize how much harm an "authority" figure can cause by posting misinformation.

I was let down by their callus attitude towards my email.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 06:39 PM

Ok, I'm going to give my input.

For years I did rescue work. And I did NOT ship any of the RESCUES to new homes. The reason is most rescues have already been through so much stress that I felt the added stress of shipping could cause further harm. Rescues are special needs from the get go. They either have had really bad lives where they were neglected (or worse) and have serious trust issues with humans. Add to that the shipping and all that MIGHT go wrong and there is a much higher risk of stress related death. If the rescue was from a great home, they may have bonded very well with their owners and now they are with strangers, scared, uncertain and stressed. Again, putting them through shipping causes more stress and can cause some real fear issues.

Meeting up with the new owners helps the rescuers to gauge if this particular "match" is a good match. Older gliders sometimes will take to one person but absolutely hate someone else. As a rescuer, it is their job to make sure each human/glider pairing is the best possible. Those face to face meetings usually are not possible if the glider is being shipped.

I have had gliders shipped to me and I've had both good and bad experiences with the process. I have also shipped gliders and fortunately, it went smoothly BUT...my stress levels were through the roof because of the bad experience I had previously. So I choose not to have gliders shipped and I choose not to ship EXCEPT as an extreme last option.

I do know that Ed and Gail stepped up and helped get some gliders shipped from Hawaii to them to prevent those gliders from being put down (Hawaii's policy).

I do also believe that in some rescue cases, where immediate medical attention is needed, shipping is often much better than a railroad as it does get the glider to help quicker. But it does add to the stress for the glider.


Perhaps Ed/Gail will alter their wording so that people don't think they can't take their gliders with them when they move?
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Dancing
Ok, I'm going to give my input.

For years I did rescue work. And I did NOT ship any of the RESCUES to new homes. The reason is most rescues have already been through so much stress that I felt the added stress of shipping could cause further harm. Rescues are special needs from the get go. They either have had really bad lives where they were neglected (or worse) and have serious trust issues with humans. Add to that the shipping and all that MIGHT go wrong and there is a much higher risk of stress related death. If the rescue was from a great home, they may have bonded very well with their owners and now they are with strangers, scared, uncertain and stressed. Again, putting them through shipping causes more stress and can cause some real fear issues.







I definitely agree with most of this, though I haven't seen extensive fear issues due to shipping *shrug*


Again, I don't necessarily think NOT shipping rescues is a bad thing, that's not my *issue* here.

It's the fact that there is a negative blanket statement being passed around as fact by an "authority" figure that may cause undue distress for gliders when their owners choose to dump them rather than ship them due to seeing this statement.

I think the rescue could do a better job informing owners about their option to ship gliders rather than dump them, as well as removing that statement from all their petfinder ads as to not give owners the wrong idea if they are considering shipping their pets.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 06:58 PM

Quote:
I haven't seen extensive fear issues due to shipping *shrug*


I have seen this extensive fear with a glider that was shipped to me. (she was not a rescue) She went through a very tramatic experience on her way here (long story). She still (6 years later) does not trust me. She does trust my husband to an extent though and became his glider.

I also had some rescues shipped to me from CA. Each of them had serious trust issues when they got here even though none of that behavior was seen by the rescuer in CA. Another group of rescues shipped out of CA did not survive the trip at all which caused severe trauma for the family that picked them up at the airport! They were expecting their new gliders and what they found when they opened the shipping crate were 7 dead gliders. Things CAN go wrong. Things DO go wrong.

I "get" what you are saying about their wording choice. I do. But I also "get" their standpoint on shipping gliders, especially rescues.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 07:01 PM

I need to add...when doing railroads, the gliders are with humans, usually those experienced with gliders, that can check on them, provide fresh water/food to them and be able to get them to the vet along the way if that is needed. They can also be there to help reassure the gliders that they are safe. I've helped in many railroads and just feel it is the less stressful way for healthy, non emergency, transportations to take place. Best is for the owner to pick up their new glider.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 07:04 PM

Interesting!!!

Were the gliders that were shipped to you, and the ones who passed away from CA all come from the same "rescue"?

Were they vet checked prior to boarding the plane?

Were they given something for moisture during their trip?
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 07:25 PM

Yes, both from the same rescue. Yes, they had vet checks prior to shipping. Yes, they all had fruit in with them.

Like I said, rescues are "different". Shipping your own bonded gliders when you are traveling is different from them going to a stranger. You know your gliders and are there to get them at their destination. You can know right away if there is a problem because you already know their personalities and temperaments. You know if they are "off".
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 07:56 PM

I agree 100%.

Interesting to me that the exact same rescue shipped both gliders that had problems during shipping.

Again, I don't necessarily advocate shipping rescues.

I don't care whether or not they ship their rescues and I think it's better that they don't so they can get to know the new owners, have the gliders meet the owners prior to going home with them, etc.

But I think the statement in their ads can contribute to gliders being dumped instead of brought with their owners for irrational fear of something terrible happening.
Posted By: animalloversfb

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 09:05 PM

Even in dog/cat rescue, you get that excuse and most dog/cat rescues simply state they do not ship without listing reasons(although some do and its usually that they want to meet the new family in person).

Its an excuse and people who want an excuse to dump their pets will use whatever one is convenient to justify it in their mind. If someone is going to re-home/euthanize/dump their pets because they saw that on LGRS's website and didn't get more information from them and other sources about shipping and how to do it safely, chances are they're using it as a way to justify to themselves why they "can't" keep them. I guarantee more people do not move with their gliders because they were getting tired of their care and they were one thing they didn't have to worry about how to transport. Those of us(like you) who want to keep our pets until they pass on would find out more information and transport them the safest ways possible.
Posted By: AmandaSnyder

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 09:14 PM

I dont think it will contribute to anyone dropping there animal, if a person loves there pet and wants to keep them they will do whatever it takes.

They can research other places and talk to there vet about hipping and get there input.

All im saying is i dont think there statement makes people want to dump there animals yeah it might make them think it isnt safe.But if they have decided to dump there animals that is there decision and no one can force that appone them i know for a fact no matter what i read online or hear i will do whats best for my pets as they are part of my family.

I get what you are saying also. This is just my op
Posted By: JeremysDad

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 09:18 PM

Well they also use the wet intro method. They said it was an extreme case because they SM because of being alone. They posted it on GG.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 09:34 PM

It would be wonderful if every website out there had accurate information, regardless of who owns the site.

I'm going to take a different stand on this. Personally, I feel that a railroad can be more stressful on a glider. The going from home to home to home, on the road multiple times for how many hours, dealing with several new people along the way...that all seems much more stressful than a few (to several) hour plan ride during their sleeping hours.

I know that some railroads on quick, and with only a couple of people involved. I also know that connecting flights can be missed and gliders can be sitting in a travel cage for several hours while awake.

Any mode of transportation CAN be stressful on a sugar glider. We just have to try to make whichever method we choose as low stress as possible for the gliders sake.

There are exceptions to every situation, to each their own.
Posted By: AmandaSnyder

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 09:38 PM

What is wet intro does that mean u just throw the gliders together. If they did im sure it was for a very good reason as some rescues come to them very lonely and either self mutilate or over groom,im sure there was a reason.

I personally dont know these people but i ran a small rescue and you do what ever needs to be done for those babys and i put rescues together before without a long intro,i mean if its needed its needed.
Posted By: Feather

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/13/12 09:51 PM

Most of the rescues that I know around here, reptile, dog, cat....... all require that you have an interview in person.

The reptile rescue actually does home inspections and follow up visits.

That would most definitely mean no shipping.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 12:31 AM

I see what some of you are saying, about "if they cared for their glider they would do additional research"

But if someone is told that shipping gliders is going to harm them and is told by someone they think they can trust to give them accurate information on glider care, they may not look elsewhere. That doesn't make them a bad owner in my eyes NECESSARILY.

They may want to do what's best for their glider, thought they dealt with a reputable source for information, and just surrender their glider to a rescue. They may think that's the only reasonable answer and since they asked a RESCUE they got the correct answer.

Or, if they adopted from the rescue and are told this. The rescue might wind up with the glider back if the family has to move.

And about asking vets. Not all vets are 100% knowledgable on everything either. Try asking a vet about proper diet for a glider or even a giant breed dog. lol I was told to feed my Newfoundland Puppies a high protein puppy chow by my vet LOL!!! That's a sure fire way to cause a whole slew of problems for my dogs.



Again, I agree with not shipping rescues due to the fact that you want to do a home check or meet the owners, etc. smile

Also, Shelly, I agree with you 100% as well. Nice thinking outside the box!
Posted By: animalloversfb

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 02:05 AM

Originally Posted By: GliderFun
I see what some of you are saying, about "if they cared for their glider they would do additional research"

But if someone is told that shipping gliders is going to harm them and is told by someone they think they can trust to give them accurate information on glider care, they may not look elsewhere. That doesn't make them a bad owner in my eyes NECESSARILY.

They may want to do what's best for their glider, thought they dealt with a reputable source for information, and just surrender their glider to a rescue. They may think that's the only reasonable answer and since they asked a RESCUE they got the correct answer.

Or, if they adopted from the rescue and are told this. The rescue might wind up with the glider back if the family has to move.

And about asking vets. Not all vets are 100% knowledgable on everything either. Try asking a vet about proper diet for a glider or even a giant breed dog. lol I was told to feed my Newfoundland Puppies a high protein puppy chow by my vet LOL!!! That's a sure fire way to cause a whole slew of problems for my dogs.



Have you called Ed/Gail from LGRS and asked them for advice on transport/shipping? If someone is going to take ONE LINE from a petfinder ad of animals for adoption as gospel, then they're obviously not doing much research and just looking for an excuse to dump their pets. I bet if they saw that and then talked to Ed/Gail, they would be given a thorough response on how to transport safely and how to ship as safely as possible if that is the only way to keep them with their current family.

I do not believe that a rescue would rather have a glider(s) surrendered to them if shipping is the only way for their family to keep them.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 02:19 AM

I just wanted to put my two cents in about shipping...

I feel that the stress of shipping comes entirely from the handling of the crates on any given flight. I flew with two in the cabin with me in January (for medical reasons), one of which had only known me for a week or so, and both gliders handled the trip without a single problem. I was genuinely worried that the altitude or sound of the plane would upset them, but there was no indication of a problem. In fact, the older girl that I brought with me went through 5 different take-offs and landings, and didn't bat an eye, even when she was awake.

A week or two after I got home, I picked up a glider from the airport. He is 2 years old, and he had been neutered for 3 weeks. The breeder I got him from said that she'd never heard him utter a single crab until shortly before he came to me, nor did he bite. I believe her 100% too, because this boy acts like quite a gentleman. Since he got off the plane though, he has been very pouch protective and ornery. He's learning to trust me, and will happily ride in my shirt all day--another sign of his previous attitude--but I am certain that the handling of his crate on his way here from TN has left a mark on his personality, and I think it will take a while before he gets over the trauma of shipping and then moving on to a new environment.

I am not saying that shipping is wrong. I have done it before, in and out, and I may do it again. I will say, however, that if at all possible I would avoid it. I definitely don't think rescues that may already have psychological damage ought to be subjected to such a stressful ordeal unless there is a greater purpose to consider. I don't necessarily think that the phrase you quoted ought to be left without explanation or a little more detail, but I don't feel that it's an entirely untrue statement, either.
Posted By: shadow_

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 02:23 AM

Originally Posted By: animalloversfb
Originally Posted By: GliderFun
I see what some of you are saying, about "if they cared for their glider they would do additional research"

But if someone is told that shipping gliders is going to harm them and is told by someone they think they can trust to give them accurate information on glider care, they may not look elsewhere. That doesn't make them a bad owner in my eyes NECESSARILY.

They may want to do what's best for their glider, thought they dealt with a reputable source for information, and just surrender their glider to a rescue. They may think that's the only reasonable answer and since they asked a RESCUE they got the correct answer.

Or, if they adopted from the rescue and are told this. The rescue might wind up with the glider back if the family has to move.

And about asking vets. Not all vets are 100% knowledgable on everything either. Try asking a vet about proper diet for a glider or even a giant breed dog. lol I was told to feed my Newfoundland Puppies a high protein puppy chow by my vet LOL!!! That's a sure fire way to cause a whole slew of problems for my dogs.



Have you called Ed/Gail from LGRS and asked them for advice on transport/shipping? If someone is going to take ONE LINE from a petfinder ad of animals for adoption as gospel, then they're obviously not doing much research and just looking for an excuse to dump their pets. I bet if they saw that and then talked to Ed/Gail, they would be given a thorough response on how to transport safely and how to ship as safely as possible if that is the only way to keep them with their current family.

I do not believe that a rescue would rather have a glider(s) surrendered to them if shipping is the only way for their family to keep them.


yeah i agree. and calling them is always the best way to get in touch with them. taking care of like 100 gliders and a farm must take a lot of time to do. anytime i have messaged him or spoke to him on the forum he has never given me a short answer.
Posted By: AmandaSnyder

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 02:39 AM

I dont think in any way they are trying to encurage people to dump there gider. I just think they dont agree with shipping rescue which i dont agree with.

I bet if someone who rescued from them called and said were moving and must fly do u think it will be ok for them to fly,thye would probly say if u could drive it would be better but if u have to go ahead make sure to have them seen before and after the trip.Make sure they have apples maybe grapes.Im sure they wouldnt say no u cant do it your glider will die or suffer from the trip.

It seems to me there just trying to push away people who just want to get a glider shipped to them without having to meet them or anything.

Like ive said i personally think if a person was moving and wanted there pet to go with them they would take any messure to do so,i know i wouldnt look on one sit and say all well guess i got to leave my family member here because these people dont like to ship.

I think your taking this way to far these people arent trying to harm any animals in any way,why dont u just contact them and see if they will change there words a bit but your not going to get anywhere talking about them on the computer,just contact them.

Im not trying to be rude i just really think u should contact them and talk with them about how you feel about them wording it that way and how u think it may cause people to want to give there pets up.Good Luck
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 04:47 AM

I got another email back from the gentleman who runs the rescue (don't know if I can put names) and he seemed to be all over the place in his response.

I don't know how the topic was brought up, but he expressed his concerns regarding Mill breeders (not sure where that came from) and then basically stated that airlines were supporting mill breeders and mill breeders shipped via airlines so he doesn't support shipping gliders through airlines, only bringing them as carry on baggage.

I'm very confused by his response. I personally don't agree with him when he said that it is THEIR STANCE (LGRS) that anyone who advocates shipping sugar gliders isn't necessarily on the side of rescues and saving gliders lives. I support rescues and I am all for saving gliders in need. I am also 100% pro shipping. I don't see the correlation and I am quite taken back at that statement.


I don't feel I'm going to get anywhere as he
1- keeps going off topic and blaming airlines for enabling mill breeders
2- doesn't seem open to other points of view
3- LGRS already has an opinion about anyone who advocates shipping of sugar gliders, and it's not a good opinion as he already stated to me.
and he made it perfectly clear that regardless of my concerns I will not be impacting his "policy", though, that's not what I'm trying to do, I just think the wording in his ads are in extreme poor taste.

As an public face for sugar gliders, I think it's his responsibility to be on top of how he words things as even the slightest thing can impact the lives of gliders.


I agree with most of your points about people not caring enough to search elsewhere for more information, but, I also feel that if someone of "power" tells you something about how you should do things, and they are supposed to have more experience than you and are supposed to be like a mentor, you trust what they say.

I don't know what they would say if someone came to them and outright asked about shipping their gliders to their new homes. But since they don't believe in shipping, I don't think that conversation would be a positive one.

With great power comes great responsibility.

As far as calling them, I would prefer to keep everything in writing as it covers me as well as them. You can never be too careful!


Nothing in this post has been quoted from the original email, all is just paraphrased in my own words. If someone would like the text from the email, please PM me and I would be happy to send you the email I got back from LGRS.
Posted By: shadow_

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 05:23 AM

just got done reading the email. and all i have to say is, you should be ashamed of yourself for how you twisted the words in the email and made it look on your post. what ed says in the email is completely different from what your saying and more logical sounding with good reasons. he was not all over the place the email flowed well to one point to the next.
i encourage everyone to request the email and not base your opinion on ed or what he thinks about shipping based on a paraphrased version of his email.
i wont go into what is in the email because paraphrasing it will do no good. you need to read the whole thing(just Ed's email)

again please ask to see the email he brings up many good points that will let you see why he does this.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 05:29 AM

Ok, going to go out on a limb here. You are taking ONE line from ONE site and making a federal case out of it. Really. Let's look at other sites. PP tells how GREAT gliders are with all other pets and make great pets for small children. They claim that they don't need vets and are as easy to care for as hamsters. Now WE all know that is not true. But if you only go to one site, you have to deal with the information you find on that one site.

I can see where they may feel the airlines are supporting the mill breeders as the mill breeders ship HUNDREDS of gliders on a single flight to be sorted and distributed to their unsuspecting new owners from hotel rooms. And in that sense, I agree with Ed/Gail.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 05:29 AM

wow, I am so sorry.

I stated here the way I read and took the email and I was confused by his email as well as appalled by what he stated.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I think it's all over the place based on the fact that I emailed him only with concerns with the wording in his ad about shipping gliders and then it turned into what you saw in the email.

Please, anyone who wants to read the email, I have nothing to hide and I'm not ashamed with what I stated. If I misinterpreted what he said I'm sorry, but what I believe is true I stated.


"You are taking ONE line from ONE site and making a federal case out of it."
I'm not trying to make a federal case. I'm just making my point. I feel strongly about it and I don't think that a topic I feel strongly about is any less important than one someone else feels strongly about.

Also, PPP is a non reputable source. I'm not sure what point you're making (confused, sorry frown ). I'm stating that a reputable source may be spreading misinformation that could potentially cause harm to gliders.

PPP is a non reputable source that spreads lies and false information (seemingly purposely) to potential buyers and interested parties not caring what happens to the gliders.


I disagree that airlines are supporting mill breeders. Airlines do not discriminate who uses their services and I don't think any less of myself or anyone else who thinks shipping is an acceptable form of travel for sugar gliders or any other pets.
Posted By: Cora

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 05:37 AM

I have been to Ed and Gails for a couple of gatherings, spoken to them on the phone and helped with a few railroads. Call them to get your answers please. If you are wanting to know about the wet method bonding he or she does not mind answering that question and its only in extreme cases do they go to such an extreme measure from what I understand.
Posted By: Annie

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 05:52 AM

I think a false statement would be something to get mad at somebody about. Shipping can, in fact, cause them harm and I wouldn't call it a healthy thing to put them though. Most of them come out of the flight okay, but rescues are different. Also, we do a lot of things everyday that are not healthy for us, but they don't hurt us all. That doesn't make them healthy though. There's a statement on the rescue site that is a fact. It doesn't cause people to dump their gliders. That would be silly. smile


To be honest, if people didn't ship their pets because they read something about it not being healthy, no one would be eating at McDonalds. McDonalds isn't healthy, but we all eat it! Lesson: We, as humans, do what we want. If we dont want to give up our pets, we're not going to unless forced to.


This is all just my honest opinion and I'm not meaning to be mean to anyone. Just giving my own two cents. smile I also may make no sense... It's been a long day! lol
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 06:03 AM

I brought up PP's site because there are THOUSANDS of people that believe the garbage they put on there and they believe them to be THE only reputable site to go to. I'm not saying they are right. I'm not saying they are reputable. I'm saying THOUSANDS of people THINK they are.

Honestly, your opinion is valid for you. It has caused us to think. But as has been said, your best bet would be to call Ed/Gail and discuss it with them. I've talked with Ed and he is a very reasonable person. As for his email being a bit all over the place...try taking care of the "farm" he has and see if your thoughts can stay completely focused all the time. I have just 3 horses, 5 adult dogs, 9 puppies, a cockatoo and 28 sugar gliders and I'm lucky if I remember to put the food in the dishes instead of the washing machine on some days.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 06:03 AM

lol No that makes sense. Though, I still don't agree that shipping will definitely cause harm to your glider/pets.

If I was a concerned glider owner looking to move and knew nothing about shipping and I came across their statement I would contact them to follow up about the shipping statement.

I would ask them if their statement is true and tell them shipping is my only option. *If* they told me that the gliders would suffer and potentially die, I would, as a responsible owner, re-home them instead of putting my beloved pets through the 'horrors' of shipping.

As far as *I* am concerned, shipping is a safe and viable option for those who must move.


Dancing, I understand what you're saying now.

Again, I like to keep everything in writing. I guess my goal through all of this was to get people thinking, get opinions as well as (through private emails) to get LGRS to change the writing in their posts to show that what they are saying is an opinion rather than a fact.

A simple "we feel that" before their statement, or "it's our opinion that", etc would make me feel much better about the whole thing.

BTW, I think we all have a little farm at home. I have goats, chickens, quail, rabbits, over 200 mice, rats, chinchillas, ferrets, exotic mice, fish, turtle, cats, dogs, etc. smile And they all get handled daily!! Talk about time consuming!! Though I don't work so my "farm" is my work. smile
Posted By: Annie

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 06:08 AM

Their statement is true. It CAN cause harm. It won't DEFINATELY cause harm. Can and will are two different things.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 06:15 AM

You can also get hit by lightening while being struck by a car in Kansas.

You can also get eaten by an alligator while sleeping in your home in Florida.

You can also be beaten to death while sleeping in your bed on a Wednesday night after watching 4 hours of television.

Anything CAN happen.

It was written as:
"We do not ship animals because it is not healthy for them and can cause death and suffering."

The first part was written as a "matter-of-fact". The second part yes, includes "can" but I think the whole statement would be better worded as:

"We do not ship animals because it is our opinion [or belief] that it is not healthy for them and can cause death and suffering."

OR

"We do not ship animals because we believe it is not healthy for them and believe it can cause death and suffering."

OR, even better

"We do not ship animals because we believe it is not healthy for them and in rare cases can cause death and suffering."


Any thoughts or suggestions on my suggested changes?

I just think it would be better stated this way and avoid any confusion and misunderstanding.

Posted By: DCMuffin

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 12:24 PM

GliderFun - at this point, you've gotten good suggestions and opinions on what to do to make your case here if you feel this strongly, which is what you asked for. Discussing it with Ed/Gail would be your best bet.

As long as this discussion remains within Rule 4, it will stay open.

This will be the only warning.

Quote:
4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented board moving towards a "PG" rather than a "G" rating. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. This means illegal substances, illegal activities, flaming, sexually explicit subjects, spamming, harassing, policing, diet bashing, and abusive or negative personal posts are not allowed. Posts and sometimes entire topics that contain such content will be removed, and the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Abuse, flaming or inappropriate comments directed toward GliderCENTRAL, its Moderators and Administrators, or failure to comply with the direction of a Moderator or Administrator, the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Please keep any personal matters off the board. Take it to email or PM. Please keep in mind that board rules do apply when using the PM feature.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 06:00 PM

Thank you DC.

Like I mentioned. I have been discussing it with Ed.

I refuse to take it out of text as to protect myself and him.

I'm hoping to come to a mutual understanding with him as he just emailed me and told me he knows that it is a fact that most animals make it just fine during shipping.


I'm hoping to come to an understanding with him, and that he agrees to change the wording in his ads to reflect what he has told me privately in email. :-)

I would never personally attack someone else, nor would I abuse another person via the internet or in person. I hold myself to a higher standard than that. :-)
Posted By: shadow_

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 06:25 PM

you can record phone calls.


"We do not ship animals because we believe it is not healthy for them and in rare cases can cause death and suffering."

i dont agree with the word rare. rare would mean that it barely ever happens, if that was the case we wouldnt have so many people saying they had a bad experience shipping. i have a friend who had a bad experience with it but i wont go into detail. you have to remember human error, these are humans handling these kids of "cargo" day after day and may be careless every now and then. they should understand that they are handling live animals but we dont know these people. do they care about how the animal/cargo's feeling? are they having a bad day or do they think of this stuff as just more luggage? im not trying to say they are bad people but they are human and they were not hired based on the fact they like or care about animals. they may dislike animals for all we know but their job is to load up the plane with the cargo. i dont know if that one worker gets in trouble if the animal arrives ill or dead. for the people who read Ed's email he made some good points about animals arriving dead.

you know it would kinda be neat if someone put like a video camera and some other devices to measure stuff and send it like/with a live animal/sugar glider. BUT it would have to be done multiple times and still wouldnt be 100% true because mistakes do happen.
Posted By: yiyo

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 07:02 PM

I, personally as a consumer, would like to know the worst case scenario in any given transaction. I don't want to be told there are no worries and then something go wrong.

Unfortunately, there IS a possibility that gliders "can" get adversely effected by flight travel. And until someone can prove that NO glider's health (emotional or physical) will be adversely effected by that, then their statement IS fact. They're not saying that the glider WON'T survive, they only state that it's unhealthy and that they can get injured or suffer from it. All of that IS true.

A small example - say a human has extreme anxiety about flying to the point of having to take prescription medication in order to be able to fly without have severe emotional stress - Is it going to kill them? Proabably not. But is it "healthy" for them? Probably not.

And I also don't think that their statement contributes to "dumped" gliders. Dumped gliders are typically from uneducated owners, not from an inability to ship them when someone is moving. Just my humble opinion.....
Posted By: etrnalsunshinee

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: yiyo
And I also don't think that their statement contributes to "dumped" gliders. Dumped gliders are typically from uneducated owners, not from an inability to ship them when someone is moving. Just my humble opinion.....


I have to partially agree with this. My pets mean so much to me that if I was moving within the contiguous states I would make the drive if I was afraid to ship them, and if I wasn't I would find an airline that would allow them as carry-ons or make the final travel another way (such as by boat) to keep them. I think that their statement could use revision for the inexperienced glider owners, or maybe even just urge them to do their own research if this statement applys to their own pets.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 10:11 PM

Originally Posted By: yiyo
Unfortunately, there IS a possibility that gliders "can" get adversely effected by flight travel. This is very true! And until someone can prove that NO glider's health (emotional or physical) will be adversely effected by that, then their statement IS fact. This I disagree with. To me, saying it's "unhealthy" means that it would effect ALL gliders, and it doesn't. So IMO, that part is not true.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/14/12 11:38 PM

Is there any proof that shipping gliders is 100% unhealthy for them?


Ed has also told me he knows that it is a fact that most animals shipped make it there with no problems.

He does refuse to change his wording even though he contradicted the info from his ads and the info that he told me in email.

I feel this will go nowhere and obviously my efforts are just a waste of time.

just a shame.

thanks for listening guys.
Posted By: thefotokat

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/15/12 12:19 AM

If I understand this thread topic correctly, the op's issue is the wording of a statement on a rescue organization's site. As a working rescue and sanctuary, we have policies in place governing all aspects of our operations. These policies were not developed overnight, nor were they written on a whim. They were developed over years of work in animal rescue encountering many situations. Our policies are in place for a reason: to protect the animals in our care. While they may be adapted as new information or situations are encountered, they will not be rewritten simply because someone doesn't like their wording. Our rescue and sanctuary is a 501(c)(3), just like Lucky Glider/Ed and Gail, and as such, we must adhere to our organization's bylaws. We have a Board of Directors who discuss and vote on issues with the goal of providing the best care possible to our residents. That is the process by which changes are made. Again, nothing is done on a whim.

I take my job as an animal rescue very seriously. I do my best to provide correct and current information. All educational projects/programs are approved by our BOD. If we were contacted by someone with a complaint such as the op's, the BOD would consider the issue and make a decision. No changes would be made simply because someone didn't like our wording. If that person then made a post insinuating that our organization...one which has worked incredibly hard for over 8 years to help sugar gliders...was causing harm to the very animals we strive to help, I would wonder why. Is it to try to put public pressure on an organization to make changes to suit one person's views or is it was to make problems for an organization simply because it wouldn't make changes for that one person? I don't understand what this post is meant to do?

In regards to the allegation that this particular statement is causing owners to abandon their pets...absolutely not. The responsibility of caring for their pets lies with the owner and no one else. To even hint that abandonment of pets is the fault of a rescue is insulting to me. I deal with people every single day who want to surrender pets. Some of them have "real" reasons, but most are simply tired of the responsibility of pet care. There is no excuse for that. If actions could be changed simply by the words rescues put on their sites, then there should be no more unwanted pets, no feral cats, no pythons loose in the Everglades and all pets would be spayed or neutered. I wish it were that easy. The wording of Lucky Glider's policy on shipping will not cause a responsible owner to suddenly abandon their pet.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/15/12 12:43 AM

I never said that it WOULD cause owners to dump their gliders.

I posed the question and it was my opinion that the way the statement is written COULD contribute to animals being dumped because someone of authority is stating their opinion as fact and may be scaring people off.

I am repeating myself again as I do not want my words to be skewed.

My worry is for the ANIMALS and as someone who worked in animal rescue for years, I take my stance, job, and responsibility to be the voice of the animals very seriously. If I did not, I would not have brought this up.

:-D

There's no reading between the lines. I said what I meant
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/15/12 12:51 AM

Since no one from LGRS has posted, this continues to be what appears a one sided argument with no end in sight.

I am now going to lock this thread.
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/15/12 10:32 PM

Ed has requested this thread be reopened so he may respond.

Any further discussion will remain within Rule 4 or it will be locked again.
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/15/12 10:43 PM

To answer the question begged in subject headline – “no” we do not think we are contributing the abandonment of gliders because we say shipping is dangerous. The very notion that a full-time rescue would “contribute” to abandonment is a bit of an insult, but we do not want our feelings to get in the way of conveying our intent and an explanation of our policy.

As to the splitting of hairs on the use of the words, “May,” “Shall,” “Will” “Is” etc. etc. juxtaposed with the word “Dangerous” – I don’t reckon anyone who would have the compunction to abandon (because we don’t condone outbound placement shipping and call it dangerous) would contemplate the distinction. Let’s face it, if someone is willing to “dump” an animal because we don’t condone shipping – do you really think the use of the word, shall, may, will, etc. next to “dangerous” is going to make the difference? We don’t think so. Not that anyone cruising an adoption site and looking at the particulars of an animal that is up for adoption would also be contemplating surrender anyway. And that’s where we put the disclaimer. So to us the wording is a moot point because the intent is very clear – our policy is we don’t ship. We say it’s dangerous and it is our prerogative to say so if we want to.

As a point of fact, there is a reason why the USDA transfer forms have a box on the form that says “Number of animals arrived dead.” That is because there is in fact death, and the USDA wants to keep track of it. Not sure how many pet stores and mill breeders want that data disclosed publicly though. Sure there are plenty of good experiences from shipping personal gliders. We do not refute that. But that is the prerogative of the person shipping. It is our prerogative not to ship. If anyone out there wants to start a rescue and establish their own policies on shipping be my guest but these policies are not going to be fleshed out in a public court or on the whim of someone who is nitpicking about our policy wording. That is ours to decide.

Also, our “ad” on www.petfinder.com where we list adoptable animals and our disclaimer about shipping must be taken in CONTEXT.

First of all, www.petfinder.com is NOT a surrender site. Petfinder is an ADOPTION site. So the context of our statement on shipping must be understood to mean we do not ship gliders TO people who want to adopt. Nowhere on that site are we encouraging surrender ANYWAY. So why this subject would be so controversial given what we say is on an ADOPTION site – go figure. (it's petFINDER, not PetDUMPER)

Now on the subject of having gliders shipped to our rescue, that is a different context altogether. That is to say, in special circumstances (like the HI gliders that were transferred from the HI Dept of Agriculture to LGRS during the amnesty program), we will take INCOMING gliders by freight but that is only if the alternative is the threat of death or if there is no other viable rescue who can take them in locally. In that particular instance, it was not about the adopting-out of gliders, but rather taking in gliders long distance. The chances of them being euthanized if they did not get off the island were higher than the threat of them expiring en route – so that is a pragmatic choice – not hypocrisy. Incidentally these gliders were health checked by a vet and checked out by a local glider enthusiast so we were sure they were in perfect health before we agreed to the shipping.

Ironically, the HI Dept of Agriculture would not have allowed that transfer to a non-USDA licensed, non-501(c)3 organization so that narrowed the field significantly. I mention this because some people postulate that having a USDA license is a big joke (After all any idiot can get a license and mill breeders have them). Well, in this case, having that license actually facilitated a rescue where the alternative was an almost certain death. I’ll take not likely death over certain death any time. So that’s our answer to people who think a rescue having a USDA license as being a joke. It is in fact no joke at all. And the fact we are regularly inspected by USDA ACIs just like breeders does bring comfort to both adopters and surrender-ers. But that does not mean we don’t think shipping is dangerous from the git-go. I mean jumping out of airplanes with a parachute is also dangerous but most people make it to the ground alive. That doesn’t make you a hypocrite to say it’s dangerous… because… well it is dangerous. I don’t care if you’ve done it once or a hundred times. It’s still a dangerous activity.

Now I can share what our motivation is for the policy though and our thoughts behind the policy in case anyone is wondering:

1. People surrendering animals often do not take care of them very well and to put them through the stress of containerized travel could push them over the edge - especially if they have metabolic bone disease or another nutritional malady. Many gliders surrendered to us are not in good health (upon surrender) so we just don't trust people enough to ship them when they could be too sick to travel. You would not believe the horrible condition some of these animals are in when they come to us. Some people are completely clueless as to how bad off their animals are because they ignorantly do not have a reference point or do not get their animals health checked. The thought of putting such an (on the edge, at-risk) animal in the belly of a plane – unattended – is just unthinkable for us.

2. For people adopting, we need to meet them face-to-face, put them through our (free) animal husbandry for sugar gliders school and dietary workshop, etc. and you can't do that long distance. Well it might be possible to do the coursework long distance, but people can’t interact with the gliders and get pooped on, smell them, get bitten, or allow us to gauge their reactions, etc. long distance. And the fact that people would ship animals to some unknown, faceless person out in the ether - who have had no training on animal husbandry - is cruel in itself. There is no attempt whatsoever for pet stores let alone mill breeders to truly educate people on the truth about how to care for sugar gliders. They just ship off these animals as a commodity. They don't care what happens so long as they get paid. That's awful. And air travel enables this moral sloppiness. Sorry we are NOT going to lump ourselves in the same category as mill breeders and allow the commodity-like shipping of animals as part of our routine. Not going to happen. Anyone getting a hold of these animals for adoption is going to come here, pass our sanity check, take the class and workshop, etc. We ain’t an animal version of eBay for goodness’ sakes.

3. Shipping is an ENABLER for mill breeders to have access to the whole country as their market. Frankly these death merchants don’t deserve to have access to far-flung buyers because “PetSafe” commodity air travel is available. So now these money grubbing death merchants can flood the market not only with gliders but with the lies they tell about their care which in turn causes much death and suffering. So if the travel does not kill them it takes them to their "death camp" that much quicker. I know this third point is both passionate and philosophical, but we truly hate the fact that air travel enables the greed of mill breeders and their lies. So in an indirect way, shipping can cause death and suffering - just not necessarily from the travel itself. That is NOT to say that shipping itself is not dangerous.

Based on our records and interviews with literally hundreds of people who abandon these animals, not ONCE did anyone EVER indicate they were “dumping” their animals "because we can't ship them by airplane." I mean for goodness’ sakes If people are moving, they can CARRY the animals with them. (When we moved our rescue, we paid professional animal movers to do that by climate-controlled vehicles with both a driver and a animal caretaker. We followed two of these vehicles in our own vehicle.)

As a point of FACT the top ten surrender reasons are, IN ORDER:

1. My child lost interest or went away to college and stuck me with the animals
2. The breeder / pet shop lied to me about how easy it is to care for them and I just don't have the patience any more
3. The cage mate died and I don't have the heart to keep the single one and think your rescue will do a better job of finding a mate for my single
4. I just got a new job that requires a lot of travel so I can't take care of them
5. My (brother, mother, sister, etc.) is allergic to them so they have to go
6. We just had a baby and don't have time for these animals
7. I have to move and I don't want to bear the expense and hassle of taking them with me (no mention whatsoever - EVER - of air travel)
8. I found this animal outside (or abandoned in front of a building in a cage) and took it in temporarily but don't want to take care of it any longer
9. It keeps biting me and doesn't like me
10. I am tired of it and want to get a different pet

Guess what? “I am dumping my glider because LGRS says shipping is dangerous” umm… doesn’t make the list and it’s never even been on the radar. So no, we are not the cause of abandonment because we say shipping is dangerous.

with utmost sincerity - Ed M, co-director
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
94 gliders, six donekys, one llama, two barn cats, three dogs, seventeen goats, eight sheep, etc.
Posted By: AmandaSnyder

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? - 03/15/12 11:08 PM

I am just so happy you decided to make an apperance ed lol. I think yall have every reason to think the way you do about shiiping and when i ran a rescue there was no way i would have shipped any of my babys.

I have never shipped any of my joeys now that im a small hobby breeder im not saying that i wouldnt just havent had anyone wanting a joey that lived far away (not yet anyways only have had 3 joeys so far).

I have got 2 gliders that i recieved from a plane but i think its differant shipping a joey that has never been mistreaded then shipping a rescue who may have had a bad life.

So i agree with you but also dont think shipping is a bad thing for responsible breeders even though there is a chance of the glider dieing or being very tramitized from it.
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