GliderCENTRAL

Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Part 2

Posted By: Srlb

Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Part 2 - 05/30/05 03:46 AM

To view part one please go Here .

Also, please leave this thread for the diet talk, if you all would like to discuss cage size, open a new thread in housing and accessories...thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: USMom

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Part 2 - 05/30/05 03:50 AM

Much easier!

As far as the high protein cereal, Wombaroo has it if I am not mistaken.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Part 2 - 05/30/05 05:33 PM

People use the High Protein Wombaroo in place of the High Protein baby cereal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Part 2 - 05/30/05 08:29 PM

Must have missed it! I didn't see where J-D mentioned using the Wombaroo HPS as a replacement for the high protein cereal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/30/05 08:54 PM

Flying Elvis speaking about what Dr. J-D has told her...
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Thanks Srlb, she did tell me about wombaroo.com, but it was the "not widely available"/shipped only by a very few suppliers part that worried her.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I believe elsewhere it's implication was mentioned. I think availablility was one of her chief concerns when considering whether or not to promote the use of a product such as Wombaroo HPS.
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/30/05 09:40 PM

Big Ern

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I think availablility was one of her chief concerns when considering whether or not to promote the use of a product such as Wombaroo HPS.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That seems strange that she was not also concerned about the availability of high protein cereal and some of the other components she mentions in the diet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/30/05 10:03 PM

True, I guess you'll have to ask her about that.
I'd think that the wombaroo HPS is probably easier to get in all honesty.

Somewhere in that previous thread there was some mention of how to go about simulating the high protein baby cereal.
Or maybe it was somewhere else I saw it, I'm not sure.

Bottom line, the Dr. J-D diet all in all isn't gonna be an easy one that just anyone can go to the grocery store and line up all the ingredients. Just the same, a glider isn't a pet that is that easy to get either. You can only do what is in your means I suppose.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/30/05 11:21 PM

HIGH PROTEIN BABY CEREAL=
I hate to repeat myself, but I guess I didn't state this very clearly the last couple times:

"High" protein is 5g of protein per 30g serving (about 2 Tbs).

I have found both organic (Earth's Best) and grocery store (Gerber) baby cereals, multigrain, low fiber, with 4g protein per 28g serving. The reason Dr.J-D adds EGG (compare to Queensland EPA glider diet) is to make up for this very small difference in protein.

Thus, while there isn't anything on the grocery store shelf called "High Protein Baby Cereal", there ARE baby cereals in the USA that contain enough protein for gliders. Read the nutrition info on your local brands and add an egg.

Hope this helps... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/30/05 11:30 PM

Marla, thank you for stating that again! I must of missed it before hehe, I get lost sometimes with so many posts....

I was going to go out of my way to order the HP wombaroo, but if I can just replace it with a gerber baby cereal and add an egg, that would be alot more convenient for me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

Question though, it says to add an egg... would I stick still adding just the 1 egg, or would I be adding 2 now that I am getting the gerber baby cereal?

Also it says adding calcium is optional... and I can;t find where it recommends any certain type of vitamins. I will be using The Pet Glider vitamins... if I do decide to add extra calcium, should I be using with or without d3?
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Part 2 - 05/30/05 11:32 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Must have missed it! I didn't see where J-D mentioned using the Wombaroo HPS as a replacement for the high protein cereal.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Charlie, sorry you misunderstood me. I personally was not talking about Dr. D stating to use it in place of, I was talking about it stating it right on the box of the High Protein Wombaroo, that is should be used in place of the High Protein Baby Cereal. I believe I had stated that in a previous post as well when I typed up what it stated on the box itself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/30/05 11:32 PM

I am not designing diets but I do agree with you Marla. It doesn't seem that the difference between the high protein cereal and regular baby cereal would be significant since there are also other protein sources in the diet. And she does recommend supplementing with vitamins and calcium. Someone asked about what vitamins J-D suggested. It was Vionate and the calcium supplement was calcium carbonate. Remember that the Vionate contains D3 so the calcium should be without D3. SunCoast carries both of these items.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 02:09 PM

Wasn't the replace ment of the cereal with wombaroo a different amount too? Like 1/2 the amount of wombaroo is equal to so much cereal?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 02:31 PM

Jess, I think I recall it being stated in the pdf that vionate is recommended. If calcium is used, to use the pharmacy grade calcium carbonte (i have that if you want any.. i have a specialiazed compounding pharmacy in the area that i buy in bulk from)

I however have a few questions of my own:

1)Is this recipe per glider.. which would mean each glider would get 2 tbs of leadbeaters and 1 of insectivore?

2)I've always been told citrus fruits and leafy veggie should be fed sparingly, however, many of these have the appropriate ca:ph ratio and good fiber and sugar as well? are they okay to feed now?

3)when evaluating sugar.. is there a certain sugar to use? right now i am evaluating my produce on total sugar but there are also fructose just glucose and so forth...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 02:31 PM

amanda, you are right.. if you use hps you need half the amount.
Posted By: USMom

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 02:42 PM

I would still think to use the citrus and such sparingly, unless the new diet causes constipation. I would think that that would be directly addressed, however. The ratios are very good in papaya, dried figs, cherrys and I think mango.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 03:19 PM

Tonia, Yes, I believe it is PER glider.... so 2tblsp leadbeaters and 1 of insectavoir. In the first recipe on the second page it says this: 2 tablespoons= 1 glider serving
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 03:21 PM

from what i've seen neither of those (except figs) have a ratio close to 2:1 but I could be wrong.

i am trying to compile a list of good ca:ph first and then look up the sugar and fiber information for those foods...

if anyone wants to double check it or give me information to add just let me know.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 03:22 PM

amanda,
would it be 2 of insectivore too tho? since it's 50 leadbeaters and 50 insectivore..which means each glider is getting 4 tablespoons.

this might be an issue for me as my gliders do NOT eat that much every night.
Posted By: USMom

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 05:18 PM

Tonia--
Papaya is 24 to 5
you are right about the others, though. I just looked them up. Papaya is one of the best fruits out there for these guys!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 05:37 PM

Okay, so, I just made a double batch of the original leadbeaters in this diet, using Gerber Oatmeal baby cereal, which has 2g of protien for every 15g serving. I also used the pet glider vitamins and no extra added calcium.

A double batch made me 30 cubes, so 60 tablespoons... BUT, feeding 1 cube PER glider, with 14 gliders, will only last me 2 nights! To make food for the whole week, I would have to make 7 batches <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Although it will still take me less time than my old diet lol, so I shouldn't be complaining

2 tablespoons of leadbeaters and 2 tablespoons of zks, along with a treat, seems like ALOT to be feeding one glider per night...

any comments?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 05:48 PM

24 to 5 would be 4.8:1

ca:ph should be 2:1
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 05:50 PM

It does say 2 tbsp of leadbeaters and 2 of ZK.... that would make 4 tbsp per glider.... Here's the Link again! <img src="...ot;" />

I agree on the amounts, even 3 tbsp per night for my guys is too much, but I won't have to worry about it too much cause I'll be adding my vits(Pricilla's) fresh at night. I'm not going to add any to the leadbeaters.

Keep in mind these are diets for gliders in LARGE cages at ZOOS, chances are our gliders are not as active or have as much room, so portions would naturally need to be smaller to prevent weight gain.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 06:00 PM

hmmm but how much would that be *hmmmm*

i am still working on a produce list.. not sure how much fat or sugar is too much or too little but i'm getting there

i tried to look on queensland's site for the list that's supposed to be there and didn't find it
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 06:17 PM

Well, I do not have the insectivore fare yet, waiting for it to be delivered, so tonight I will be feeding the recommended 2 tablespoons per glider, but along with more fruit and veggies. Once the insectivore fare gets here, I will lower it to 1 tablespoon of leadbeaters per glider, and see what happens.

I also will most likely, start adding the pet glider vitamins fresh instead of putting it in the leadbeaters batch.
Posted By: USMom

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 07:40 PM

Tonia, so a higher calcium to phosphorus ratio is bad? I was kind of under the impression that it would help balance out the stuff that I feed them that has a lower balance. Am I doing it wrong?
Posted By: USMom

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 08:20 PM

I was just re-reading the pdf document on this and I am reading this, on page 2 "an artificial nectar (either leadbeaters mix or one designed for honey eating possums)" and it says that for feeding captive gliders: "Portion size for one glidter is roughly a tablespoon of insects, and a tablespoon of nectar, plus fresh water available always." I hope this answers the portion questions that y'all are having. The fruit is a treat. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 08:35 PM

Those of you considering using the pet glider vitamins. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
Not to rain on anyone's parade or trying to say it isn't a feasible option, but one thing to think about is whether those vitamins are enough. Specifically whether they have enough calcium or not.

Priscilla's diet uses the calcium added OJ concentrate which contributes a good amount of calcium to the diet. Sooo, maybe you guys should try to see what kind of differences you're gonna have to compensate for, calcium being of utmost concern. I'm just afraid that you guys might unknowingly be using a calcium deficient diet, and we all know what that leads to. I'm guessing that if you want to use the petglider vitamin that you might need to add a little calcium to the leadbeaters?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 09:06 PM

Good point Ernie... I have no idea how much you would want to add... any math genuis out there want to figure that one out? I've still got some rep-cal calcium left that I've been trying to use up, so I've been adding that every other night or so, just a pinch(?) 1/32 of a tsp. But I hadn't really given it much thought... thank you for bring ing that up.

I would say that since Dr. JD says to just add in calcium carbonbate along with Vionate that we should just add what she suggests. Sprinkle calcium carbonate everynight along with the PP vitamins? Or could that add too much calcium to the diet????
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 09:19 PM

Isn't the Insectivore fare supposed to be a balanced diet. Check it out. You may only need enough vitamin/mineral supplements to balance the Leadbeaters and other ingredients. And actually you need an analysis of the Leadbeaters to formulate the diet correctly.

Trouble is once you get all of this analyzed no one knows the actual daily requirements of a sugar glider. If you start substituting other vitamins than the ones J-D recommends you are getting away from her diet.

I don't think you are accomplishing anything by purchasing calcium carbonate from a pharmacist. Do you know what strength it is. Most calcium carbonate is from 35 to 40 per cent calcium. I might add that the Vionate that J-D suggests using as a vitamin supplement contains Vit D3.

Seems everyone is going in their own direction on this. Will be interesting to see the final results of each diet and compare them.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 10:29 PM

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> good grief... too much thought into this one I think.... Personally I think everyone makes diet too complicated. We've got SO much knowledge floating around I don't think it's THAT much of a guessing game. I personally am not going to sit down and do a bunch of calculations just to find out the EXACT vitamin counts on what I am feeding. If the glider is given a varied and vitmin enriched diet, I really think that should be enough....I mean, I know people who feed baby food and sprinkle their vitamins on and their gliders are very healthy, so... I just think we make it more complicated by getting SO detailed about the diet.
I know that we have ot be careful not to overdose them on vitamins... but really, the way I'm doing it, I'm not real worried about OVER or UNDER dosing them. I think Pricilla's vitamins are pretty complete, with or without her diet plan. I told her I was using only "parts" of her diet along with her vitamins and she didn't object at all. And no where on her site can I find something saying that HER diet HAS to be fed with the vitamins.
To be honest I think Pricilla's whole point of making a vitamin was to make a universal one, not one that just fits with her diet. This is only my opinion of course drawn from the fact that she's never once said the vitamins have to go along with HER diet exclusively. But that seems to be the assumption everyone is making.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 10:35 PM

Here's EXACTLY what I will be feeding:
Pricilla Price Vitamins, 1/8 teaspoon per glider per night(I am not going to suppliment calcium every night for now until I get some more info, then I'll let everyone know)
Happy Glider Pelleted food (instead of ZK cause my kids don't like ZK)
Original Leadbeaters (recipe on the Dr. JD Pamphlet)
Crickets vitamin coated and gut loaded, at least a few every night
Nectar -Kerns or Goya(if I can find a good powdered one that would be cool, but this one I need help on)
Fruits & Veggies as small treats(not every night)

This is about as detailed as I'm going to get on this one. If I think it's necessary, I'll add in the calcium that Dr. JD suggests.
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 11:10 PM

Looks like you have given your diet a lot of thought and research. Obviously you have a thorough understanding of what it takes to formulate a sugar glider diet. Good Luck!
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 05/31/05 11:13 PM

USMom... you need to have a balance of 2:1 but for this diet, which focuses on that ca:ph ration, low fat, high sugar, low fiber.. I am going to target produce that meet those specific goals. too high can be bad just as can too little

I don't think everyone is really going their own direction on this. I am feeding the leadbeaters exactly as described with the vitamins described as well as the insectivore fare from the exact source specified and the produce/nectar/bugs on the list.

the only thing I want to verify is the amount of each of the two main portions.
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/01/05 12:23 AM

That doesn't sound like the same diet Nihm is planning to feed! The vitamins and calcium could make a real difference.
As well as the difference in the produce, nectar, and even something as simple sounding as the honey. There is a lot of difference in all of these items. You need to be more specific. For example if you research honey you will find that it is much different depending on what the bees were gathering nectar from. If I remember correctly J-D mentioned lorriket nectar. And you are researching the produce so you are aware of the differences there. Are you sure everyone else is on the same page? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
Charlie H
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/01/05 02:52 AM

T marie, I agree with you, IF you are going to use a diet that is formulated.. vits and all, then you SHOULD follow that diet to the TEE as the people intended. I have sat and read this thread, and find it quite amusing, that from the first post to this last one, how many modifications have already been made.

This is the biggest problem with ALL DIET plans.. not the people that work on them, and fine tune them, but everyone else making the modifications to them. for whatever reason they deem necessary.

I had to grin a bit.. when I watched the high protein cereal be substituted with the wombaroo, then egg being added, vitamins were changed, several diet plans combined .... LOL, by the time it is all said and done, you will be making the same modifications we have, so that the ingredients are easily accessable to everyone..
Posted By: USMom

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/01/05 03:00 AM

Tonia, if you look at the second post that I have up there, I am quoting directly from J-D's diet, 1 tbsp leadbeaters, 1 tbsp insectivore fare--fruits as treats. This is from her section on captive gliders. The two tbsp of each thing is, I think, for zoos.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/01/05 05:55 AM

In the diet written on the pamplet, the diet instructions do not specify what vitamins to use. She may recommend certain vitamins later in the article, but her written instructions for the diet, leaves room for a variety of vitamins. She also says extra calcium is optional.

Maybe I am blind, but I have read the article over and over and can't find where she recommends specific vitamins. Then again, I have read it to death and might need fresh eyes to find it for me.

On the High Protein Wombaroo, it says "Wombaroo High Protein Supplement can be substituted for the high protein cereal used in the many food recipes for animals and birds. It is more economical as only half the quantity of Wombaroo is needed because of its superior protein quality and higher concentration." I for one, am trying the leadbeaters mix with Gerber baby cereal, which has 1g less of protein per 30g serving than the high protein baby cereal recommended. This is so that I can test the diet with my gliders, before buying bags and bags of HP wombaroo, only to realize my gliders have no interest in the diet change.

I am unsure on how there is much evidence of this diet being modified unsafely.

If you ask me, I think everyone is here, trying to learn from eachother, and its wonderful that GC is embrassing this diet, as opposed to rejecting it or putting it down, like I have seen happen to so many other diets here.
Posted By: SweetGliders

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/01/05 07:21 AM

Sorry,
I came in late on this one. I would like a copy of the PDF guide. So I can sit down and read this away for the computer. My eyes are going wild. I can't get focused.
Thank you
Anita <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

Oh, By the way : Right now I only feed the BML diet and fresh vegetables and fruit every night. Plus mealies or crickets.
I won't change unless I read something that makes a world of difference. I have over 80 + gliders now and they are all big healthy gliders and they have always been on the BML diet.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/01/05 12:25 PM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
That doesn't sound like the same diet Nihm is planning to feed! The vitamins and calcium could make a real difference. As well as the difference in the produce, nectar, and even something as simple sounding as the honey. There is a lot of difference in all of these items. You need to be more specific. For example if you research honey you will find that it is much different depending on what the bees were gathering nectar from. If I remember correctly J-D mentioned lorriket nectar. And you are researching the produce so you are aware of the differences there. Are you sure everyone else is on the same page?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Charlie, I am not sure if everyone is on the same page, and as I re-read this, I think you may be right. Everyone needs to understand that people that create diets aren't just some joe off the street that's had gliders for a few years and thinks they know it all. I myself will be one to admit I am not at the point I can create a diet myself. I will also not change a diet without talking to both my vet and, if possible, the creator of the diet. My vet has already approved any changes I am making, and it is a very small one.

I'm wondering how more specific you would like me to be? I am in the middle of doing a full research on produce so it might be awhile before I can get specific in that area. I want to have this down before I do it. I want to fully understand what I am getting into. I know that honey is different depending on what plant it comes from, but in most diets that require honey, no specific hoeny is mentioned other than it cannot be pure from the comb. Clover honey is usually my honey of choice.

I already use lorikeet nectar as a treat so that will not be a problem either and I already feed crickets instead of mealworms.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
T marie, I agree with you, IF you are going to use a diet that is formulated.. vits and all, then you SHOULD follow that diet to the TEE as the people intended. I have sat and read this thread, and find it quite amusing, that from the first post to this last one, how many modifications have already been made.

This is the biggest problem with ALL DIET plans.. not the people that work on them, and fine tune them, but everyone else making the modifications to them. for whatever reason they deem necessary.

I had to grin a bit.. when I watched the high protein cereal be substituted with the wombaroo, then egg being added, vitamins were changed, several diet plans combined .... LOL, by the time it is all said and done, you will be making the same modifications we have, so that the ingredients are easily accessable to everyone..

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Awww bourbon, thanks. It is nice to know someone agrees with me. The only modification I am making is the HPS instead of the high protein cereal, and this is with the approval of my vet. I hope to make a trial batch this weekend and see how it goes over with the crew.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
onia, if you look at the second post that I have up there, I am quoting directly from J-D's diet, 1 tbsp leadbeaters, 1 tbsp insectivore fare--fruits as treats. This is from her section on captive gliders. The two tbsp of each thing is, I think, for zoos.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I thought I was right. I just have to find what page that is on to see it for myself.

Anita, I sent you a copy of the pdf.
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/01/05 08:29 PM

this PDF file is not some new explosion, most of these diets are listed on the diets page right here at glidercentral. I have my own issues with the article in many different areas, so knowing what I know dealing with many of the gliders here in the states in captivity, I am not surprised such general statements were used, unlike the symposium she had done several years ago, which isn't much different in fact some of the paragraphs in this pdf are directly from there.

some things to think about. things that she had addressed in the symposium several years ago hit right on the head many of the things we constantly fight here. the modifying of the diets, sprinkling of the vitamins on top.. actually this pdf file is not as detailed as the other one.

also in the peer reviewed jornal she and others collaborated on, she had taken a totally different approach to the self mutilation. In that article she stated it was caused by the "un-named nematode", of which we found out there was no such thing.. we did however find out about as much as we could, but a nematode it wasn't. Those things were found in 5 week old joeys that belonged to a breeder in Ohio. For her to say it is "common " for solitary gliders is very unrealistic. as we have found there are and can be several reasons for it, nothing was mentioned regarding possible UTI's , bacterial infections etc.. just as the common symptoms she had listed, that gliders on inadequet gliders experience is and could also be caused from bacterial infections, as we have learned ever so much.

the body temps , is also conflicting in the fact that according to the vet peer reviewed article, it states that the average temp is 97 give or take, not that is 10 degrees off. if she was refering to yet another marsupial, which could be assumed with the number of teats, and the body temps, then that is understood.

To state the average temps in the home is at the bottom scale of the gliders matabolism.. Also is something that needs to be addressed, since in the wild in some areas of australia, temps will fall to much lower temps than anyone woulf have in their home. Also most people try to mantain a temp that would be comfortable for a newborn baby... which in essence many times would prove to be too warm.

I wouldn't consider the diet the shocker, the list of diets there are the same ones that are here on gc.nothing new and outragious.

by the way in the diet she has endorsed throughout the years recommends, vionate as well as sustagen.

she did not advocate the spinkling of vitamins. but to be added to the mix. Also by comparing rosemary booths diet to the taronga zoo diet, and the cjd diet, you will see a difference, but in essence what all do you really see?

i have seen here, no veggies, due to the fact they are sap eaters.. this also is not news.. we have said for years they are sap eaters..but if you WATCH your glider eat their veggies, they eat the soft stuff from inside of the corn, peas, and greenbeans, they eat what is UNDER the skin of apples and grapes..

compare the fiber in all the diets listed, you will find things are very different amoung all the diets suggested..

as I have stated many many times before, if you use a diet, use it exactly as it was intended to be used..

the biggest problem i see with many people who have problems with their gliders and diets, is that they offer way too much, far too many mealies, fruits, veggies.. etc..

Pockets, you and I have spoken many times over the years regarding these diets, I will not continue in this forum, as I don't want or wish for this to turn into another debate like our last one. I hold a lot of respect for you as I know you do for me. one thing we both have agreed on over the years, is the gliders has, is and always will be the most important priority.

the introduction of "these new diets" is not a really a new thing, for one I would love to see everyone get down to the basics of why NONE of these diets work.. modifications, mixing diets, foods that aid in the absobtion of iron, things people do with the diets that could be cauing their gliders to get liver failure.. things that can be avoided. this by far would be the best gift everyone can give their glider.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/01/05 09:29 PM

Is it being insinuated that this info and this discussion are pointless?

Though some of the info may not be spot on, I'm happy that someone with the education that it takes to be a vet cares enough to spend their time on studying gliders. Anyone who cares to explore solutions and pioneer advances gets a thumbs up from me.

I think the reason that many people feel that this info is a shocker is because they haven't seen the info before. With many glider owners not happy with the results they're getting from other diets, this "new" info is refreshing and exposes new options and avenues to do what we all hope to accomplish, and that's to raise happy and healthy gliders!

Only by maintaining an open mind to the ideas that are new and to the ideas that may seem a bit too progressive can we keep the road open to finding solutions to the common health problems that gliders face. We can sit here and nitpick small details and debate issues of credibility all we want and that's really not gonna get us anywhere. I don't know anyone who's right 100% of the time, and if they are, I doubt they'll ever take any risks that could lead to new ideas and discoveries. Only through trial and error, informed research and a positive environment of information sharing will we find increasingly better ways to take care of our gliders and afford them the long happy life that they deserve.
Glider owners have come a long way from "bird seed and fruit" diets! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinkerg.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/01/05 09:50 PM

no insinuations intended... as i stated before, but if your going to post up "new shocking info" then do it.. but in the meantime, put up the link of the symposium she did years ago.. that actually goes into more detail as I stated before.

also.. diets are not everything.. health issues need to be addressed WITH the diets, and the problem as I stated with ALL diets is the mistakes that we see that... WE, as in all of us, make with the diets that could be contributing to the dietary blamed illnesses.

look outside of the box, and address ALL of the concerned issues..

Fact is the pdf was posted, there fore it opened the ENTIRE pdf open for the discussions that lay within it.

as long as the problems are not addressed, then there is NO diet that will ever work for OUR... (yes both yours and mine..) gliders...

it is the compilation of info from many different areas, that makes the info only as good as the work that is behind it.

the seizures that she contributes to the diet, could also come from a head injury /and or bacterial problems.. that should all be addressed.. instead of stamping on the diets, stamp on the need for many many tests, to address the problems and not just the symptoms.

you were around.. i think when the BML was being blamed for that nasty bacterial infection that gave HLP type symptoms, as well as seizures..

in order to get to the heart of the PROBLEM, we first had to look outside of the "diatary" box, that many people choose to stand in.
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 12:47 AM

Thanks for posting that Bourbon. I was waiting to see how long it took for our researchers to figure out that the J-D Shocker Diet was outdated news. And if a glider knowledgeable person reads and absorbs the pdf mentioned they will realize how outdated much of the information is. This is not new just a new group looking at it.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 01:03 AM

Yes, thank you veterans of the glider world! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

With all due respect, I don't think any of us were blaming any health complications on BML, specifically, and neither did the pdf. file. This thread has been primarily about Dr. Delaney-Johnson's suggested diets. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />

I don't think many people saw this as "new" info. Being here for awhile (not even that long) and being familiar with some of those diets, I feel that we've been addressing this whole issue as "new" because these diets are now suddenly being further accepted by everyone here due to the endorsement by a qualified member of the scientific and vet medical community, i.e. Dr. J D. That's why this diet issue is a shocker and NEW, because it's suddenly in the spotlight more than usual (again here on GC, anyway)! I'm sure much of this is perhaps new to some newbies here, but more importantly, what is "NEW" is that such diets are not being undermined and are now being accepted among many of us here on GC, which is contrary to what has normally been observed here. So yes, this cretainly is NEW.

I do have a question:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Bourbon:
compare the fiber in all the diets listed, you will find things are very different amoung all the diets suggested..

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

...but do they contain more fibre than the conventional diets with veggies/fruits as an integral and subtsantive element of the diet? Perhaps we should open another thread comparing fibre levels?

Furthermore, does nutritional variance necessarily indicate that a group of diets (or one or more in the group of diets) may be bad, especially considering the fact that we aren't 100% sure as to what our pet gliders need nutritionally? See, I'm sure you are aware that wild gliders (the origins of our pet gliders) from different regions feed on such different things depending on geographic location, so I'm sure there lies quite the degree of nutritional variance cross-geographically. That is to say, I'm sure a glider from Tasmania has a different amount of fibre in their diet than a glider from Indonesia, for instance. That doesn't necessarily indicate that the diet of gliders from one place may be less nutritionally complete than those of glidres feeding from another location.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 01:10 AM

I agree with MIkey. I've known about this diet ever since I got my first glider, this is the diet my vet reocommends. However, the high protein baby cereal was always an issue... and when pockets informed us of the lovely hps and then this was brought up and reminded me of my vet wanted me to use this i put two and two together and decided to put some research into it and see what happens.
Posted By: Charlie H

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 02:35 AM

Mikey
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I feel that we've been addressing this whole issue as "new" because these diets are now suddenly being further accepted by everyone here due to the endorsement by a qualified member of the scientific and vet medical community, i.e. Dr. J D

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

The diet being discussed is 5+ years old and was presented by Dr. C J-D way back then. It is not new or a shocker. Well it may still be a shocker to some people that have not seen earlier discussions on diets and are rehashing a diet that has been scrutinized in the past. We are beating a dead horse here.

Apparently Bourbons post went over your head. In your quest for the perfect diet you overlooked the information that J-Ds diet theories have been around for such a long time. And now we have a group trying to modify her ideas just as has been done in the past. I haven't seen any new ideas in this thread, only repetitions of what has already been done.

And Tonia just because a vet or two agree that a diet is a good diet does not mean much. They only know what they have read in the publications. If they happen to read the wrong publication they are quiet often wrong. Just because a person like C J-D gains notoriety by having a few articles published does not make her an expert. Otherwise why would her diet be so different from the diets of Dr. Booth, the Chicago zoo, the Tarango zoo, and many others? Vets, not knowing about glider diets quiet often go with what they have read in some vet newsletter without actually taking time to do further research.
Charlie H
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 03:22 AM

I don't mind that the diet is an "older" diet. I guess my real concern is that an "expert" in the United States is handing out an older diet she created, and that she has never updated it to make it truly usable in the United States. Dr. Johnson-Delaney should be the one telling us to use Womboroo HPS, or to use baby cereal with an extra egg. She should be the one specifying whether to use Vionate, Herptivite, Pricilla's vitamins, etc. She also should be updating it to say whether the calcium that "may be added" is truly optional or is necessary.

I reviewed this diet two years ago when we first got gliders, and chose not to use it then because it didn't contain enough details and some the ingredients specified are unavailable in the United States. I would love to see an updated diet by Dr. Johnson-Delaney based on currently available foods and specific supplements.
~Lynn
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 03:30 AM

you know,zacksmom, that is a realy awesome idea...

would anyone who has dr jd as their vet mind requesting it be put up to date and if whatever is not here in the states can be substuted? and that ca Q too...
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 03:38 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Yes, thank you veterans of the glider world!

With all due respect, I don't think any of us were blaming any health complications on BML, specifically, and neither did the pdf. file. This thread has been primarily about Dr. Delaney-Johnson's suggested diets.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Mikey the start of your post alone, didn't make me want to go out and see how much you have learned, it already starts off, like you are out to prove something to someone.. because you missed the whole idea of the POSTS I made.. I never said anything about the PDF file and the BML.. because I personally don't think she is refering to the BML, after all it wasn't modified for "paletability..just ask al the people that taste it and smaell it..

do you really think the only reason I post is in regards to the BML?, if so, then you have missed many interesting readings in the past.

This has NOTHING to do with the BML, so don't try to make it something it isn't.

Who said anything about anything about the diet as directed, being bad? not me surely..

it is funny, that your response is so ... hmmm shall we say.. one that was based on a serious misunderstanding? I will do that.. because I really don't want to think what I am thinking at this time, so with you I will drop this.. maybe you need to re-read the POSTS and maybe try to see what I was saying? Instead of looking at who posted them, and try to prove something that isn't.

To be honest I don't care how many threads you start on this board or for whatever reason you want to start them.

Tmarie.. Not so much as charlie said about it being outdated, (could be interpeted that way though) as much as I was trying to point out, that there are various reasons, for the symptoms that are commonly quickly diagnosed based on a few symptoms that it is dietary. much like when a glider is dragging it's hind legs, the first thought in a vets mind is HLP. why??? because that is all that has been talked about at vet seminars, in books, and the information that the vets find on the net. What about the depleteion of nutrients when gliders get certain bacterial infections? However; just as you and I and many others know, we have come far in the medical areas of gliders, (not near as far as we would like, but much farther than we were lets say 5-8 years ago. but that new info is not getting out there, the old info is being rewritten, over and over again. put out for others to see from "new angles". There are a lot of diets I do not support, but then again there are quite of few that I do.

people had called me regarding Pockets new diets, and what I told them was simple. I have faith that Pockets, would never offer a diet that could be potentially dangerous. I believed that then, I believe that now. The people I have spoken with that wanted to incorporate natural flora and fauna, I sent to pockets, I had them research her posts, regarding species etc.. I encouraged them to contact her. Because that is the area she concentrates on.

I told them the same as I have said for years, the BML is for the general owner, where accessbility to the ingredients is important. I said nothing throughout the threads where Pockets was talking about her diet, I said nothing here on this diet... until when??? when I seen people changing things.. then I spoke out.. I even agreed with you because you said you were going to use it as DIRECTED.

it is not because diets are undermined, it is because we want what is heathy for the gliders, look around, you have been here long enough to see how many new owners change diets, create their own, and even newer owners JUMP on it. it is enough to make one sick.. but I see it is more about ego, and proving something, then going to the basics, and realizing it is about the gliders.

time for education rather than manipulation..
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 03:52 AM

*coughs* well, I have some observations/confessions to make:

[:"red"] I. [/] I have fussed and complained 1,000 times on here that my fuzzles don't eat all of their BML. Consequently, I have tried to use Suncoast and Pet-Pro as my alternatives -- not all at the same time, of course! I am talking gradual changes. What I discovered was that, as a result of my changes, my gliders didn't care for EITHER of the other two alternatives anymore than they appeared to "like" BML. Interesting. Wonder why? Maybe it wasn't the BML!


[:"red"] II. [/] After some very good discussion, and taking a good, long, hard look at what I had been doing (my personal glider husbandry skills) with my gliders' diet, I have come to a conclusion as to what works for me. Here are my thoughts/confessions:

a). I freely ADMIT that I have "tinkered" with a proven diet (notably BML) by "messing with"/substituting the supplements (like I see many of you trying to do for the Dr. J-D diet). I do not criticize your for this, you are doing what you believe is best for your kids… you are in the discovery process, and that is how we LEARN, which is as it should be --- as long as our gliders aren't AT RISK. Just be careful. Personally, I know that I would not want to go through all of those manual calculations, such as: “this is to that fruit as that is to this veggie is to the equivalent of those whatevers…."

b). I am NOT a dietician, a nutritionist, a scientist, or any kind of expert. I just want to love my little fuzzles and give them the best possible life that I am capable of. We all want that, I believe (that's why we're here).

c). I want a diet that I can USE and KNOW is a healthy one for my gliders – a diet that yields HEALTHY GLIDERS!

When I changed the supplements in my "version" of BML, I was NO LONGER feeding the BML diet as it was designed. I had substituted ingredients, which the directions clearly said NOT to do! And, I did it anyway, because an accomplished breeder had made a recommendation based upon her veterinarian's recommendation for a different diet (although, to me, the diets seemed similar enough – scary generalization, huh?!?!?). Again, I am not a nutritionist, nor do I have any aspirations of becoming one – so I stopped fooling myself.

For those of you who missed my other post, I used:
* Vionate in place of the Herptivite AND;
* Rep-Cal with NO Vit D3 instead of Rep-Cal WITH Vit D3 (because Vionate had the vitamins).

So, I "messed around" with a PROVEN diet, and then complained that my kids didn't eat it!! Well, well, that's rich, isn't it?. I should be flogged, but please don’t do it here… this forum is too valuable!

However, my gliders didn't eat the other two diets either (and I didn't mess with those!). Hmm. Wonder what is going on here? Maybe the problem was ME! How’s that for a TRUE DIET SHOCKER!

Bottom line: Each glider owner will do what he/she feels is best for his/her gliders, according to his/her means, but for me, "the proof is in the pudding, boys and girls." I am not trying to sway anyone on here to one diet or another. I am just sharing my personal diet decision and explaining why I've chosen it.

Let me define my "proof/pudding theory". Proof, to me, is evident when gliders are: on a proven diet, VISIBLY happy, healthy, long-lived, and who have healthy coats, and clear eyes – and who also pass vet tests/checks. These are gliders that our "veteran glider owners" have seen, raised, touched, observed, and catered to for hours and hours... years after years!

So, when these "veteran glider owners" make a claim/assertion, it's not a just a whim or an educated guess, either!

You know who they are, and I don't need to list them. When these veteran glider owners speak of gliders who are aged in the double digits and are STILL healthy... then, we "newbies" SHOULD listen and at the least consider their point of view JUST AS VALID as any scientists'. After all, scientists OBSERVE their subjects over scheduled periods of time, too.

[:"red"] Consider this: Some scientists do not have the luxury of close to 20+ years of “up close and personal” observation of their subjects -- let alone COMBINED years of experience -- talk about a dedicated longitudinal study!!! [/]

I say, "BRAVO to our veteran glider owners!"

Obviously, there is no one "magic" diet, or we wouldn't be here thrashing/discussing/ conversing/debating/chit-chatting the various diets over and over again; yet, this is ALSO how we learn/progress (as hard as it is to "take" sometimes).

I say, that as responsible glider owners, or slaves, depending upon your personal perspective, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> that WHATEVER diet we should CHOOSE to use, like Bourbon said, should be used in its ENTIRETY -- without modification (or guesswork). I am paraphrasing, and I hope that I have been accurate.

But I have digressed (and then some!).


[:"red"] III. [/] Before I interrupted myself, I had started to say that I had taken a LONG HARD LOOK at my glider caretaking. I have to admit that I have done at least "5 bad things":

[:"red"] 1. [/] I have changed a proven diet based on my INTERPRETATION of information presented to me;
[:"red"] 2. [/] I have, and I see it now, offered too many mealies;
[:"red"] 3. [/] I have offered too many treats before I left for work ('cause I would miss my babies) and they had to know that “mommy loved them.” My gliders didn't need those treats... I needed to give them!! I most probably CAUSED my own problem: my gliders were not eating ALL of their BML.

[:"red"] pauses for deep breath![/]
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />
has anyone stopped to consider this? Do yogies and papaya contribute to TOOTH DECAY? Are there little glider toothbrushes? I've heard that mealies clean the teeth.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[:"red"] 4. [/] I have overpoured my ice cube trays -- and they were even larger ice cube trays -- to start with!!
[:"red"] 5. [/] I have expected them to eat all of everything all of the time. No one does that – not even me!

So, in all honesty, I haven't given the BML diet a fair shake. That stops today. Consider me reformed, or, rather, "CONFORMED."

My decision is to use the BML diet, fully and completely, just the way that it was intended – no more substitutions or rationalizations for me! I will have a clear conscience in doing so, too, because that I know that others have come before me (thank you, BML veterans!) and they have been where I am going (which is hopefully a long happy HEALTHY life with my gliders).

When the veteran glider owners/slaves have used a proven diet AND their gliders have been vet checked AND “glider approved” ... who am I to question that?

My “GREATEST DIET SHOCKER!” – was myself.

CGARNES, over and out.

edited to clean up messy things
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 03:57 AM

WOW... a lot has happened since I started my "online journal" WHILE I was writing it!! I should have maybe submitted my comments as an attachment.

(now, back to my normally scheduled reading)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 04:03 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
it is funny, that your response is so ... hmmm shall we say.. one that was based on a serious misunderstanding? I will do that.. because I really don't want to think what I am thinking at this time, so with you I will drop this.. maybe you need to re-read the POSTS and maybe try to see what I was saying? Instead of looking at who posted them, and try to prove something that isn't.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I knew exactly what you were writing about, Bourbon. I fully agreed with your main point and that's why I didn't comment on it in my post. Let me do it now: Yes, people tend to put too much emphasis soley on diet when assessing health issues that may be diet-related, when really we should also be looking at those preparing the diets, i.e. those of us that make modifications. I do understand that, and I apologize if my post made you feel like I was somehow questioning your stance on that or like I was perhaps out to prove something irrelevant or non-existent or whatever else.

But back to what I was saying, I felt like some (not only you Bourbon) were attempting to discredit what was presented in Dr. D J's pdf file and I just didn't think there were valid points made.

For instance, what exactly was the purpose of this statement:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

compare the fiber in all the diets listed, you will find things are very different amoung all the diets suggested..

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I must have misinterpretted its function, hence my post regarding it.

Also, yes, the information may be old, but does that mean the information is outdated? If Dr. D J handed the info sheet out at whatever event/convention that she did she obviously still feels that the info is still valid, regardless if some on GC have argued against it in the past, 5 years ago or not.

[:"red"]Thanks! Having said that, I apologize to all who may have been turned off by my posts (Bourbon, I'm openly sorry about everything including my "with all due respect" line, and believe it or not I do highly respect you and what you do for our gliders. Yes "our" - I too feed BML); I hate being the source of trouble and would hate for this thread to be closed; so I won't participate in this thread any longer, as it is giving me headaches and the mood has certainly taken a turn - completely understandeable and expected! Peace, y'all! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> [/] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

PS -

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
because I personally don't think she is refering to the BML, after all it wasn't modified for "paletability..just ask al the people that taste it and smaell it..

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

LOL. I do believe the "palatability" comment the Doctor made was referring to palatability with the gliders, not people <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 04:11 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Thanks for posting that Bourbon. I was waiting to see how long it took for our researchers to figure out that the J-D Shocker Diet was outdated news. And if a glider knowledgeable person reads and absorbs the pdf mentioned they will realize how outdated much of the information is. This is not new just a new group looking at it.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Ok I'm a bit confused?
If this info, which includes and supports the usage of both bee pollen and acacia gum, is so outdated, then why was it that when I brought up the use of both, it was met with such resistance by a select few people who are purportedly more "informed"?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 05:01 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

So, when these "veteran glider owners" make a claim/assertion, it's not a just a whim or an educated guess, either!

You know who they are, and I don't need to list them. When these veteran glider owners speak of gliders who are aged in the double digits and are STILL healthy... then, we "newbies" SHOULD listen and at the least consider their point of view JUST AS VALID as any scientists'. After all, scientists OBSERVE their subjects over scheduled periods of time, too.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Correct me if I am wrong, or maybe I am the only person that is seeing it this way... but I think it is the "newbies" that aren't getting the credit here.

You don't need to be a member of glider central for 4 years to deserve respect. I think EVERYONE should be respected, and that these "newbies" might actually have something to say that is worth listening to.

Everyone is screaming RESEARCH RESEARCH!

But how come I haven't seen any written proof, any article, that shows that BML is a well balanced diet for gliders? But people follow this diet, why? Because someone told them it was the best... I bring up BML first, because it is most used amongst glider owners, from what I have seen. But the same goes for priscilla's diet... the same goes for the ensure diet...

You don't have to be a "veteran" to understand diet to the extent of being able to decide what diet is best for YOUR gliders. You don't have to be a "veteran" to openly share your knowledge with the members of this board and not have it shot down. It seems that the "newbies" can be shot down in seconds, while a "veteran" should always be listened to... that just doesn't seem right to me.

I do agree that "veterans" deserve respect and that their knowledge is greatly needed... but lets not forget the "newbies", who do have alot to bring to the table, and are usually over-looked for the sheer fact that they haven't been a member of glider central longer than 2 years.

This is also my last post in this thread... as it has gone south fast. But I am greateful it lasted this long.
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 05:09 AM

the acacia gum and the pollen issues was also raised in this diet, the same resistance was shown not only with yours but with others that use it. this has been an ongoing thing with little to no definitive explainations.

lets see if I can reword what was already asked, that still hasn't been answered..

for starts, pollen is not pollen is not pollen.. the pollen that gliders eat in the wild is the pollen from the plants and flowers.. I can just get a visual of a glider chasing and eating a bee to scrape off it's wings... bee pollen is different than the pollen from flowers and plants.

I have seen my glider react to pollen.. I personally would never use it because what had happened. however there are those that do wish to use it.. now as was asked before. when the be specific was asked..

depending on where and how the pollen is collected, you have different strengths, and properties for that matter. that needs to be addressed.

the same goes for the nectars.. look read what people are writing... dr CJD says lorikeet nectar.. I see people getting and ordering anything that has the word nectar in it. goya nectar is not lorikeet nectar, humngbird nectar is not lorikeet nectar, glideraide is not lorikeet nectar.

if everyone got off the defense, and started looking and finding the reasonings behind the concerns, then much more information could be collected, learned and utilized.

as for the acacia gum. it was said any of the acacia species are okay, as well as euylcptus..

but the facts remain, that the gliders in the wild don't eat every species, so in essence, everyone has people planting and trying to grow, some species the gliders may not even eat.. BY the way.. there was an article written many years ago regarding gum feeders..
and a recent article was just written again,
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/primates/4n3kelly.htm

but yes, that still goes to show, no you were not the first to think of the acaia, nor dr CJD, nor others that have come along after the fact.. this is something that has been tried, and tried.. and only found that certain species may work.

as for the eucylptus.. it is extremely hard for them to digest .. there is info out there on the different species as well.

you see Big Ern, the questions that arise, are valid issues. what one glider may eat another may not, and we still have to look at the whole picture.. I know it was stated that the discussion of the cage size should be taken to housing, but seeing that it is in this PDF, and the diet that is suggested are also in conjunction of a cage of the larger size (whether it is for zoos or sanctuaries).. then also that also must be taken into account with the diets. please see that the reduced cage size, limits the mobility of the gliders, there fore their feeding is also going to be impacted by that.


again this is NOT the first time this issue has come up.. pockets and I has a deep debate on this a few years back.. just take everything into consideration.. gum is not gum is not gum, nectar is not nectar is not nectar.. that would be like saying that the metabolisms of gliders living in 1 foot square cages are the same as those that have free roaming glider designed rooms (as in zoos..)

the "average" glider owner has their gliders in 2X3 foot cgaes and many even smaller (bird cages etc..) many breeders have them in even smaller cages.. look at the out of cage time..

you have to look at the big picture. In the Ideal world everyone would have the right trees and plants and flowers growing in a huge glideroom.. and they can live their life as if in the wild.

we have done this with many diets, including the BML, looked at all areas.. looked for the best products to use. is it perfect? no diet will ever be near perfect till the instructions, are worded in such a way that things can't be modified substituted or changed. Then and only then can you get a clear picture as to what is really going on.
Posted By: Pockets

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 05:54 AM

Hi Tom -

Trying to be good <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" /> thats why I could not accept the many kind offers to help moderate on this board!

I for one love the newbies & am certainly impressed at the amount of research so many are doing & some, their math skills are to die for <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />


Charlie, you really need to work on being a bit more tactful with your comments, the danger as I see it, is that many of these U.S.A. DVM's, Companies, etc.., as well as many of my Aussie friends, contacts, researchers & Companies - many quite possibly have the needed resources for expensive studies for the future health of captive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s nationwide!
Why bad-mouth thier research, products, etc?

It's a very serious problem when leading marsupial scientists, veterinarians, published researchers, etc, are not willing to visit Glider Central!

Just wanted others take a look at this info & link to a DVM, who I look up to here in the USA & have called on him in the past (Jen's <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> is being treated by him & I have posted links to him here at GC several times)
Dr. Robert Ness DVM
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 06:25 AM

Aww, Jessie, I think you took me the wrong way... I was trying to show that BOTH sides need to respect the other. Any of my posts have always tried to be fair to both sides (or at least I thought I had been even-handed). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I can see where Thavens could view this as flaming, but that was certainly not my intention. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I believe that a LOT of good has come out of this thread, if nothing else, I have learned how to better care for my gliders.

I am not "dissing" science, in fact, I supported the posts regarding Dr. J-D's diet that Flying Elvis had presented (check, you will see!). We needed the information, and THEN we, as individual owners could decide, for ourselves, what was best for our gliders, based upon our own research. The more information that we ALL have, the better informed decisions we can make for the care of our little ones.

Certainly, as I have stated in previous posts, we are all very passionate about how we care for our gliders... I didn't say anyone was wrong -- or at least I didn't think I did <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Bottom line: Each glider owner will do what he/she feels is best for his/her gliders, according to his/her means, but for me, "the proof is in the pudding, boys and girls." I am not trying to sway anyone on here to one diet or another. I am just sharing my personal diet decision and explaining why I've chosen it.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I said what I was going to do because of what I think is best for my gliders, just the same as others will choose to do what is best for their gliders... where is the harm in that?

To borrow from world cuisines a bit: Is a Chinese diet any better than a Greek one? French any better than an Italian one? etc.? Honestly, VARIETY is what works depending upon the environment... Speaking from experience, a Greek diet would not work here with our American lifestyle!! My goodness, Greeks (I am speaking of those in Thessaly, lest anyone be offended by this comment. I have been there on holidays for 10 years for MONTHS at a time!) eat mountains of food, sleep for 2-3 hours in the afternoons -- usually from 12 - 3... then, wake up, and party/socialize/have guests over until well after midnight! You can even drink Heineken whilst walking down the street! And these are the MATURE adults!

You see, there is no one perfect / no one right diet even for HUMANS... all I thought I was presenting was a little "tolerance" that's all.

I stand by my comments, and they were not meant to harm anyone. I truly apologize if I did upset anyone!! Mikey did, too! My goodness... just because we have differences of opinion doesn't make one diet better than any other... or any worse!

There are scientists, they are lay-people... there are experts in any number of fields on this board. Our love for gliders is what binds us together!!

Pocket Angels, when I am speaking of "veteran glider owners" that would be anyone who has been around longer than I have! But yes, I do feel that some were, how shall I say this tactfully, were treated with less courtesy than I would have liked to have seen... My goodness, I have learned A LOT in the short time I have been here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It really shouldn't be about "which side" gets more respect: ALL viewpoints should! On that point, you and I agree! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have been fascinated with the Dr J-D diet, because as a NEWBIE -- myself, I had never heard of it until FlyingElvis made her post. And, I have thanked her very publicly for that, and I, for one, would welcome Dr. J-D here! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I guess Tom is right, this does look like a flaming war. I spoke up when it looked like the veterans were getting a bashing...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
You don't have to be a "veteran" to understand diet to the extent of being able to decide what diet is best for YOUR gliders. You don't have to be a "veteran" to openly share your knowledge with the members of this board and not have it shot down. It seems that the "newbies" can be shot down in seconds, while a "veteran" should always be listened to... that just doesn't seem right to me.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I AM a NEWBIE -- myself!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I do know that, as carefully as I have read the Dr. J-D diet, it is more than I could personally handle at this time, based on my current knowledge of the various ingredients! I'm just not comfortable with it... I do NOT feel that I am qualified to make those nutritional decisions for my gliders, and I do not wish to experiment on them.... but that is ME... my decision for my gliders is to follow ONE of the diets which was presented on this board, and I have tried two others. I chose the one that best fits my lifestyle, my means, and that which appears to also bring about healthy gliders (as demonstrated from the rescuers, etc.). I am not speaking for anyone but myself.

FYI: Mikey and I were "born in GC-land" at about the same time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (sorry, I didn't pick Mikey out for any particular reason other than we DID join at about the same time -- and I like Mikey).

"Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends . . . " that's the way the song goes... and that's my sign-off for the night.

"Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends . . . "

pianissimo.... sings softly and my screen fades to black
Posted By: Pockets

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 07:41 AM

B - not all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s would agree on their favorite flora (lol) aprox 600 eucalypt species & more than 800 acacia species, aprox 75 Banksia species, etc ... depends on a native <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s locale & the season, just to mention a couple problems

Correct Australian flora product is very difficult to locate & harder to come by & plants can be difficult to grow - I have been searching with Oz help for years for some products - finding some & getting pretty close to others & some I will have to win lotto to be feasible to export & import!

I have seen much incorrect flora info & disagree with almost all the rest (lol)

That is how I first located Cathy Delaney's research years ago, by searching out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s native flora & her info popped up, she was the only person I located in the U.S.A. that knew particular flora species info that I had spent many years collecting.

I truely believe - There will never be an exact overall diet that applies for ALL captive <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s because each <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> has special needs or will at some time - breeding, health issues, different growth stages, young joeys, picky eaters, seasonal preferences, etc..!

B- it certainly is true that no Leadbeater's mixes or any modified Leadbeater's mixtures are the same, as the properties of honey batches are all slightly different - have a few Aussie honey & pollen publications in the library
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 08:04 AM

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
for starts, pollen is not pollen is not pollen.. the pollen that gliders eat in the wild is the pollen from the plants and flowers.. I can just get a visual of a glider chasing and eating a bee to scrape off it's wings... bee pollen is different than the pollen from flowers and plants.

I have seen my glider react to pollen.. I personally would never use it because what had happened. however there are those that do wish to use it.. now as was asked before. when the be specific was asked..

depending on where and how the pollen is collected, you have different strengths, and properties for that matter. that needs to be addressed.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Bee pollen and pollen from plants are really not all that different assuming that both pollens comes from the same plant. The only difference that I'm aware of is that the pollen that they collect has been packed onto their legs for transport. They might moisten it with some of their saliva, but I doubt that it would significantly alter the chemical structure of the pollen.

Yes, all pollen is not equal.
Source, storage methods and age are all contributing factors. Each pollen has it's own nutritional value and there are great variances in the quantities of amino acids present in each type of pollen. Most glider consumed pollens in Australia contain about 22-25% protein. I've got a PDF that breaks down the species of pollen if anyone is interested. It's really pretty boring, but it's good for informations sake I suppose. There are even small variations among species dependent on location which I'd imagine directly correlates to soil quality.

Know your source, as with any food, the fresher the better and the better the packaging, the fresher it will stay. Typically pollen stays happier if stored in a sealed container somewhere cool with a consisten temperature, preferably the fridge.

Most people neglect these things when considering pollen and go straight for the good deals. Most of the cheap pollen is from China and has been stored so poorly that it has either been tainted or lost it's nutritional value.

Bourbon's glider reacted to the pollen, but I believe that hers is a very very unique case. The petglider has many many gliders that all eat pollen, as do the very numerous that feed her diet, as well as the 20 gliders that I own and the gliders that Pockets owns. I personally don't see a big issue against feeding it. I do definitely agree that people should make informed choices as to what pollen to feed and strive to feed good quality pollens. It would be lovely if we could feed the pollen straight from the flower and someday soon I hope to!

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
if everyone got off the defense, and started looking and finding the reasonings behind the concerns, then much more information could be collected, learned and utilized

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I agree with this.
Some concerns are considered more valid than others and as with any issue with humans, some tend to be more liberal or conservative with their concerns than others. Sometimes people try to project their values onto others and then problems arise. I think a bigger problem lying in the path of the proliferation of information/knowledge is lack of respect for people simply as individuals. Even the idiot on the street corner comes up with something wise to say every now and then. There is something to be learned by everything. Sometimes the lesson is what one should do, other times it is what not to do. Similar to what Bourbon stated before, sometimes people place too much emphasis on the source and neglect to truthfully consider what is being said, the saying goes both ways since one must at times consider the source. I get so frustrated seeing emphasis being put on credible sources for info and in the same breath a person, in a nutshell, stating that no one knows what they're talking about anyways. So what's the point of even talking since we're in the midst of a paradox anyways? If you can't research because you aren't qualified enough, or you have researched and are "qualified" but accordingly, "qualified people don't know what they are talking about", then we're in a lose/lose situation, and that is truly unfortunate.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 08:47 AM

Hello oh persistent and dedicated few! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Well, I've avoided posting here for a while, b/c I felt there was no point, but given this latest round of posts I can't help myself, I must weigh in (feel free to skip if you're sick of me...

First, I must say I truly respect ALL of you tremendously, PLEASE do not take any of my points personally <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />.

Before I get into this, let me state that the handout was requested by me, it was an MSWord file DR.JD had on her computer of her continuing NOTES on the subject, it IS NOT a formal PAPER, and should not be held to that standard. I have already volunteered to compile her most current data into an OFFICIAL GUIDE, which will not have those errors.

1. "Not new/shocker"= Now I know (because of THIS thread) it was available 5 years ago, but there was NOTHING about it on any of the diet forum posts for my first few MONTHS on GC, so it was "new" to me, though that's not what I titled it, DrJD never said it was new! I said "shocker" mostly b/c of the VERY low % of produce recommended! I'm sure you're aware that you can find numerous breeders and other "authorities" claiming to feed upwards of 70% of their SG diets as fruits (I can send you their URL's). While this isn't true of BML, you do have about 50%, which is still a lot higher than the Dr.J-D diet. I'm basing this on your "1Tbs each of basic mix/veg/fruit", if the "insects" proportion is = 1 Tbs, then your diet is HALF produce.

2. "Errors" = Some of the errors are simple to explain (2 teats vs. 4 b/c different subspecies) and some aren't, however, none of them bring the diet into question, and this was intended as an intro/notes for new vets, she printed out parts she thought would be helpful to me, but she doesn't have a formal guide yet (I'm volunteering to make one for her) but when she does I'll be sure to point out those things to her.

3. "Pollen isn't pollen, nectar isn't...", while this is to some small degree true, it is not a big enough part of the diet to matter nutritionally. Mostly the differences in pollen are in taste, protein and trace elements, just like HONEY, about which you state (in your official BML) "any store brand not raw/unfiltered", though (as you said of pollen) there are many different source flowers that the bees can visit, and this changes the TASTE but not the nutrition (think of clover vs. orange blossom honeys, tastes real different, same nutritive value) just like pollen. What matters is what matters with all food: quality/no additives and freshness/proper storage. Yes, bee pollen is flower pollen processed by bees with a little saliva and flower pollen still in the flower isn't, but we're told to feed a tiny bit of BOTH on Dr.J-D's diet. As far as the gum arabic, all species in the genus Acacia are SAFE is what we're told, not that all are equal nutritionally, and the type of gum that's usually available comes from Acacia senegal, which was analyzed and shown to be identical to the Acacia native to Australia that wild gliders eat.

4. "Supplement issues"= Dr.J-D carries and recommends Vionate and Reptical WITHOUT D3. The calcium is only "optional" in the Ledbeater's if you always dust the insects with it.

5."Extra egg" = There is only 1 egg in the DrJD recipe, this is the added protein to compensate for that 1g less of protein in American baby cereal, as compared to other diets (EX: the Queensland EPA mix) which have NO EGG at all. Thus, there is no "extra" egg.

6. "Rampant modifications"= I am feeding exactly what she suggested, no modifications, I don't have to substitute WHPS, etc. b/c I understand what it is I'm feeding. If you want to (like Pockets is VERY successful doing) the reality is in the case of WHPS vs. baby cereal, or vitamin supplements with the same %RDV of each vitamin/mineral but a different Brand name <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE, and an informed person should be able to make "sum:zero" substitutions without being attacked.

Bourbon, the type of objections you're making can be made about your very own BML basic mix:
Honey: Different flowers=different honeys (as discussed)

Egg: Which kind? Some eggs come from chickens fed hormones and antibiotics, and even other chickens, are those okay? What about fertilized? Organic? Brown?

Regular bottle apple juice: Often has a huge amount of refined white sugar, which has been implicated in diabetes, also, is made of apples, which (as you state re:fruit/veg) may have had pesticides on them when juiced, do we have to worry? What if they're GM apples?

Yogurt: What kind? "Plain" (no fruit) can have many variables, which should we use? No sugar? No artificial sugars? Full fat, low fat, non-fat? Live cultures or not? BTW There is NO evidence that the live culture bacteria from yogurt survive through the caecum, therefore this is possibly an empty calories and/or lactose intolerance issue.

Chicken Baby food: The sodium in these jarred baby foods can be REALLY high (300mg+/jar), as can the FAT from gravy, and the chickens themselves are raised with hormones and antibiotics which remain in their meat! Sodium and saturated fat are risk factors in heart disease and liver/kidney failure...

Wheat germ: Blocks uptake of calcium.

"Baby cereal"= Baby cereal isn't baby cereal...there is a wide variety of protein/fiber/carbohydrate available, what proportions EXACTLY are you getting in BML?

The above is not meant to besmirch your diet, but to point out the hypocrisy of the attitude. If you and the other veterans can honestly say you've NEVER lost a glider to strange illness that MAY have been related to diet, then you're above scrutiny, if not, we need to explore some more, we owe our babies that.

Last point...well, a confession really. I had a glider before Elvis. He was 3 years old in 1996 when I got him from a very wealthy young man I was tutoring in math. He had gotten "Rudy" as a baby and was "sick of the smell", and when Rudy fell in love with me & vice-versa, Alex gave him to me. I had no idea how to feed him, so I kept on with what Alex had been doing (a fancy parrot blend, herptivite/reptical, water bottle) with the addition of fresh produce (I figured if he could have dried mango etc. he might like wet...boy did he!). Rudy lived 8 more years; he died last year of an upper respiratory infection... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" />, at the age of 11 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />!

I knew so little; until his last 2 years==
He had no tent time; I just played with him in my room at night. I didn't feed him mealies or crickets. He didn't smell b/c I cleaned him AND his cage every week like clockwork, but it was a never-ending battle. I didn't know "Glideraid" or lorikeet nectar existed. He never saw a fresh flower or gum arabic. He was a solitary glider, I never even saw another one the entire time I had him, until we moved to Seattle in 2002.

AND YET= He lived a long, happy life, and was NEVER sick until his last 40 days on earth.

What's my point? Well, that diet isn't everything, different gliders have individual situations, and [like poor Rudy] may survive and even thrive on what is universally (at least here on GC) considered a BAD diet.

I want more for my Elvis & his gang (yes, I have 6 now, long story, just got a lovely family of 4= Dad, Mom w/peanut, and Sonny 11mo OOP). I want them to have the best, and I'm older and wiser now, and I have Dr.JD and GC, and so altogether can give them better than Rudy ever got. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 12:03 PM

I like Jessie, see this going south as well.

I don't think I ever once bashed or said bad comments about another diet in this thread. I'm also not one to diet switch. I'm a smart, educated woman who has a brain and can think for herself. I don't do make my own diets so people think I'm cool and I don't try to mess with an existing one. I haven't approached anyone in a rude manner and have only tried to explain myself, and although I respect you very much Charlie, I was much offended by your post to me. I give you the respect and common courtesy you deserve, and I feel at least some of that should be returned.

Yes this diet is old, and yes, maybe the vet should be here telling us about this, but then again, if I saw this and it was my diet, I wouldn't want to stop in and give a "friendly" hello either.

There are only a few things I am still wondering about, and since everything that is said seems to be attacked I will take it elsewhere.

thanks Marla for the great discussion
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 01:56 PM

Please forgive the long post, like Marla said, this is for the few dedicated ones remaining...

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I am sorry to hear this, Tmarie. I have the absolute greatest respect for you, and I don't think that you have bashed or made any bad comments here at all in this diet thread. Quite the opposite, in fact, you have asked loads of questions concerning the Dr. J-D Diet, which NEEDED to be asked (and answered!) before anyone should switch to this diet.

You have a ton more experience with gliders than I do, and although I don't think of myself as a "dummy", lol, I just personally don't feel comfortable (no matter how much I research it at this point) with trying to follow this diet, although I DO find it very interesting. In fact, I applaud you for questioning the diet and seeking clarification (as anyone considering using it should!). I've seen in your other posts that you, and a few others, are actively working to compile a proper list -- you WANT to follow the diet AS IT IS INTENDED. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You are doing all of the proper research and verifications BEFORE you switch -- as anyone should. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think the concern (for the gliders!) is that newer members, such as myself, just MIGHT take the diet and follow it the best they CAN... but who just MIGHT grab any old nectar/pollen/whatever... and "tweak" or "substitute" according to their understanding of the diet.

I know, long ago, that I had read "somewhere" (can't remember where!) that I should provide eucalyptus for my Sugi (this was before I got all the others). Well, gung ho, there I went, trying to find eucalyptus ANYWHERE... finally, I found Australiaplants.com website and was PREPARED to ORDER. I STOPPED! *blinked eyes* WOW! There there are over 288 varieties of eucalyptus!!!! My goodness, I thought to myself, how in the heck am I supposed to NARROW that down? Australiaplants.com advises . . . .

Call me TIMID, but I just don't feel qualified, on my own which is what other new users COULD or JUST MIGHT do, to make those kind of decisions for my gliders.

Someone also (was it big Ern! ?) made the comment (and I am paraphrasing to the best of my ability because I am ready to head out of town) [. . . that other vets, marsupial experts, etc. wouldn't visit our board, and that was an unfortunate or sad situation . . .] Well, I would have to agree with that comment. That IS sad. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I really thought, though, after having read Mikey's [observation: he uses BML, guess that surprised me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ] AND big Ern!'s posts, and the last comment by Pockets was that this thread was BEGINNING to take a slight upturn!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pockets, your PML is also quite interesting, and I don't think anyone was bashing the PML diet either (did I miss something somewhere?).

Diet is a fascinating subject, and we are all here to learn from one another. As was stated above, we should leave the past politics out of the thread(s), and consider the INFORMATION BEING PRESENTED, NOT THE USER.

I agree with the comments above (Tmarie), that "the vet should be here telling us all about this . . ." but why stop JUST here?. Why doesn't she present her information IN a formal paper (and Marla GRACIOUSLY explained that the diet, as SHE [Marla] had presented to us was just informational. Marla, as a GC member, was merely sharing the information, which she had requested. That's cool! THANK YOU, MARLA!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Honestly, Marla, I admire your discussion of your first glider, and I smiled as I read it. Yours was an incredibly sweet story of "that first glider." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I love that!!! And, I applaud you for volunteering to share Dr. J-D's diet information!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Before I get into this, let me state that the handout was requested by me, it was an MSWord file DR.JD had on her computer of her continuing NOTES on the subject, it IS NOT a formal PAPER, and should not be held to that standard. I have already volunteered to compile her most current data into an OFFICIAL GUIDE, which will not have those errors.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

And you are right, the PDF file that I have received is NOT a formal paper! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There was no abstract (which typically precedes formal research), and there was no journal publication data in the footer (that I can recall), nor any bibliography, or works cited (which every researcher MUST include in any formal work). The information that you presented was just that -- information -- and you told us where you got it so that we could EACH consider it, or NOT!, for OURSELVES. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I truly mean these comments in the VERY BEST POSSIBLE LIGHT... I am NOT criticizing anyone (lest my tone/mood be misunderstood here, as these threads can sometimes be misinterpreted) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

However, I would love to see the research formally published and presented for ALL to share -- even if it is on another website (an academic one, where the message is not contested, but CAN be questioned through reading through the research that Dr. J-D has considered in HER research . . . just like Tmarie had PROFESSIONALLY questioned to LEARN and to better UNDERSTAND the intricacies/ramifications of the diet).

Ideally, this website, journal publication (or whatever media) should be presented by her perhaps this is already underway?? (please, no offense is intended here) . . . as you well know, all faculty/researches/scientists actively promote their work and seek professional publication.

To be frank, their work is INDEPENDENT of the masses at large (researchers should -- and DO -- present empirical studies, which they present in their unique study, evidence that THEY have considered and accepted and/or considered and rejected to formulate their OWN unique position -- which is why they are the experts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There are those here, in this board, or can and WOULD really appreciate this information. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Let's have that... the formal paper... the presentation... and the means to be able to read and fully consider the works of the researcher.

Surely, any researcher would actively promote (and defend, if necessary, which is the heart of discourse of any argument/theory/hypothesis being presented) "the topic." This is why students MUST defend their OWN theses and dissertations. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ALSO, like Marla has stated previously, </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I truly respect ALL of you tremendously, PLEASE do not take any of my points personally

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">.

Consider me Rosie I. Glassis..... but I see a very POSITIVE light to this thread! We are ALL learning something here, which CAN BENEFIT our gliders!! Again, that's why I am still here and "hangin' on tight". . . I dearly hope this thread "makes it."

Sign me,
CGARNES/Rosie I. Glassis
Posted By: Karin

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 02:26 PM

This post continues to "go south", because so many continue to defend themselves. Get rid of the attitude, and back to the diet discussion, and this thread will remain open <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />.

Karin
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 03:55 PM

I am exceedingly disappointed in this post. It started off as a wonderful learning tool, and has turned into.... well, what a lot of posts seem to turn into on GC, bashing; diets, people, products. How sad.

I feel my intelligence has been insulted. Bourbon and Charlie, I believe you talk down to people and I find it very rude. Your tone of "voice" makes me very uninclined to listen to anything you have to say. I do not feel either of you contributed to this thread yet you added a great deal of filler to it, making it harder for people to read through.

Ernie and Jessie, thank you for your posts. You both said everything I wanted to in much more tactful words. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Marla, compliments on your last post as well <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> I truly think this was a wonderful thread that just turned to a pile of poo. I am very interested in the final document you come up with. Please do not be discouraged by this thread to post it when it is finalized.

I for one was not aware this information was so "old". I still think it is very useful information, and still plan on utilizing these diets.

Marla, I look forward to your finalized post in the future with enthusiasm.

Cheers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/gliderangel.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Dr. Johnson-Delaney : Glider Diet Shocker! Pa - 06/02/05 04:03 PM

This post has sereved it pourpose and long over due to be closed. A warning of closure was made by both a Administrator and a Moderator and yet you continue to to defend yourselves and that is not what this post is about. This will be closed now, and please do not start another one as obviously it will not remain on topic or follow the boards rule!!!
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