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Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: Dancing] #991219
08/14/10 12:42 PM
08/14/10 12:42 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
jillmarie, it is not necessary to have a sterile lab.. just common variables that do not change between the various group, if you have one group that is being fed suncoast, and they are getting more out of cage exercise, and then another group that is fed bml, that only have wheels.. their body will metabolize the nutrients differently,

they metabolize their nutrients differently by doing something as simple as spreading their membranes, they expend energy differently if they are running in a wheel, with or without resistance, climbing the cage vs climbing a tree vs climbing a rope. some gliders have to work for their foods, others have it right by their pouch

personally I wouldn't trust using suncoasts gliders, simply because the diet study was interpeted to be a plus for their diet.

no more than I would use my own gliders, the owners of the diets should be totally neutral, but yes I do think they should also have a say in the "standards for the diet" as well.as the variables that would be involved and taken into consideration regarding the study itself

Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: Bourbon] #991247
08/14/10 01:52 PM
08/14/10 01:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
To be more realistic, the eventual study (I am sure it will be done someday) should be entirely neutral. Perhaps NONE of the specific current glider diets would be used.

Instead diets with specific levels of protein, but equal sugar, fat, fiber and calcium/phosphorus amounts would be studied to determine an optimal amount of protein needed. A separate study might be aimed at the sugar/carbohydrate amounts with all other parts of the diet being equal.

None of the current glider diets were developed based on scientific 'testing' for specific nutrients. We have no recommended daily nutrient guidelines - these need to be established.

My point is, it is not the "diets" that need to be evaluated it is the nutrient content of the diets regardless of the part of the diet (the ingredients used) that provides the nutrient.

It may not matter if the protein is from HPW supplement, egg or from chicken or a combination of one or more of them - what probably matters is the amount of protein offered daily.

An appropriate but neutral diet - with variable amounts of one major nutrient at a time for a study would give us better information than trying to create a competition between the current recognized diets all hoping to be labeled the "best" diet for gliders. We may all be feeding our gliders inappropriate amounts of protein, fat, sugar and fiber in our efforts to make the perfect diet without scientific backing.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: CandyOtte] #991270
08/14/10 02:48 PM
08/14/10 02:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
But, if enough of us do the study on the animals following the diets as directed, that will give us a basis of where to go. The lab information will tell at the end which diets are too high in what nutrients.

Depending on exactly how much cost would be associated with it, I would be willing to use my 3 cages that have always been on PP and were born onto PP for the study. It would contribute a lot to have many of us pick that up.

Peggy, how much lab work and x-rays, etc, would be required?


Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
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Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
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:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: wildlifeangel] #991291
08/14/10 03:42 PM
08/14/10 03:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
wildlifeangel, we are not talking about costs for individual glider testing.

A valid study would need to be done in a controlled environment where feeding amounts, schedules, exercise opportunities, cage size, etc. could all be matched.

Yes, we could as individuals collect data and send it to a central location to be compiled and compared, but unless as many variables can be matched in each and every home it would be just that a collection of data. It would not be possible for everyone feeding a particular diet to feed EXACTLY the same thing with it each night. Part of a controlled study is feeding all groups exactly the same fruit and vegetable and number of mealworms on the same day.

Coordinating that with hundreds of individuals all over the country would be impossible.

For example, many lifestyle variables for women were studied this way using THOUSANDS of nurses who were enrolled in the study (out of Harvard I believe). Several times each year these women answered extensive questionaires about their health, eating habits, exercise habits, medications taken, etc, etc, etc. Periodically they sent in blood samples. They signed releases in advance allowing the release of ALL of their medical records from any doctor or hospital that treated them - the records to be requested at the time of their deaths. This study has been ongoing for at least 40 years (longer I think) and data is still being collected. Data from this study is often quoted in other studies and is used to SET UP controlled studies to test the data from this long term data collection.

In short, collecting data from individual owners over the lifetime of hundreds of gliders would give some health issues, or observable characteristics (coat texture, incidence of diseases etc) that might be related to diets.

This data would be used to define the variables to be controlled in an actual study of diet in a full study.

Reporting of information from hundreds of individuals is not equal to a controlled study with variables minimized.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: JillMarie] #991334
08/14/10 04:37 PM
08/14/10 04:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,092
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,092
North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: JillMarie

what may be better is people at home keeping very detailed records of all foods fed, exercise times, age sizes, etc, and have blood tests, xrays, weights, etc. done to use for comparisons...but that may or may not be enough as it is not truly controlled.

TGI was working with Kris on a preliminary study I guess you'd call it. Each person participating had to write down beginning/ending weights, exactly what was fed each night and what was left over, and blood work at the beginning and end of the "study". I don't remember all of the details. I believe it was to last 30 days.

We had numerous people willing to help out. The problem we ran into ~ vets were unwilling to draw blood from a sugar glider for "no reason". Therefore, all but one person backed out. I was one, my vet would not draw blood if there wasn't a medical reason to do so.


when speaking of a controlled test I get this horrible image of a sterile lab with 100 gliders in cages and getting stuck with needles.

That's the image I get as well. A lab set up with X number of cages, all the same size, all the same toys inside the cages, diets being carefully weighed and monitored per cage, various age groups, routine weights on gliders, using both sex, constant temperature, equal out of cage time, same amount of day/night, routine blood work being conducted, etc. I also would imaging this type of study would last quite a while. Then, would the end result of the study being each glider euthanized and a necropsy done? It's not logical to wait out the life of a glider, otherwise the study could take over 10 years. Just wondering...



Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: LabNGliderMom] #991365
08/14/10 05:31 PM
08/14/10 05:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 708
Melbourne Australia
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian
Marz  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 708
Melbourne Australia
When this study was released to the public in 2006, I asked my vet to have a read of the document for her professional intake of it all.

My vet is an exotic/wildlife vet here in Melbourne but has worked worldwide in various zoos including sometime at Healesville Sanctuary. She still spends time working with local zoos and often is one of the head vet teams on wildlife disaster response. To top it off, her main interest lies in exotic/wildlife nutrition so I knew she would be interested and qualified to give me a professional opinion.

My vet was disappointed in the report and felt it was not well executed, scientifically inconclusive and left more questions than it answered. However, she said, if someone had paid for this study to be done, then Dr D would have been ethically obliged to write up her findings even if they were not of any huge scientific value.

Last edited by Marz; 08/14/10 06:02 PM. Reason: removed a sentence I thought was not relevant
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: Marz] #991366
08/14/10 05:36 PM
08/14/10 05:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
LabNGliderMom Offline OP
Glider Addict
LabNGliderMom  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
For those looking for Peggy, she is having family time in Orlando until tomorrow and may not be back online to answer any questions until Monday though she did say she would *possibly* be online later tonight or tomorrow.


Julie
Hubby: George
Kids: Ayla & Michael
Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
The Zoo: Midnight, Severe & Nala - Claude, Pixie, Tippy & Chili - Scout & Soluna, Theo & Deegie

http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com


Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: Dancing] #991386
08/14/10 06:04 PM
08/14/10 06:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 542
st.louis, missouri
HappyToBeHere Offline
Glider Lover
HappyToBeHere  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 542
st.louis, missouri
this is very interesting. I work at a vet office and im a wildlife biologist major (mind you i dont graduate till next year) but i would be willing to help out with this. I know how experiments work and write them...i do not enjoy the writing part mind you. I am friends with my advisor and other graduates that could help with the basis of this study and how to approach.

If people are willing to do this then money isnt an issue because we'd have our own out of pocket expenses. My concern is the stress on my gliders that i personally and not really willing to do. I.e. all the vet visits and needles and stress.

BUT i do believe if we pulled this off the community would listen. Obviously because ive noticed diet is a very heated thing to discuss. Simply because we want the best for our fuzz children and we also want to assume that we are doing the best for our fuzz children. Someone coming out and claiming that someone else is doing it wrong of course would cause a problem.

Moreover, I do like the study's done before. Thank you for those who at least did this, they are no small or inexpensive thing. A stepping stone thats needed though.Im also curious as to what back rounds people have?

Srlb can i ask your background? I understand Jimbos (hi to you both by the way!) You sound well informed/educated. The more educated on science we have the better and of course those who are not thats even better! We need a lot of people so we can answer any and every question (within means).

We also have to remember this could end bad. We may destroy diets or start a new one that may work over a few years but then be very bad over a life time. We also need to be nice and not pick apart every little detail. I know thats how we get to the bottom of things, but i do in a sense feel sorry for Jimbo. Maybe avoid direct questions. Be a little bit more vague, ask for clarifications... and please dont CAPITALIZE things. To me that makes me feel like im being attacked even if its sugar coated with nice words and smiles. We have to approach this with criticism but not the type that will have us at each other throats or harboring ill thoughts towards one another.

The question is now is this really possible? I do believe it is but in honesty we will never get it right, experimentation is not exact science. So even with a new diet study out it will be picked apart and problems found, it will never be 100% perfect. But at least its steps to the closet 100% any human being can achieve.

If this is to happen... we have to try to address all of the glider community on glider central. They have to know the risk. This could kill a glider, the stress. Unless we only make vet visits once a month over a course of a few years (and thus a few generations).

So first, we need to really decide what we want answered, then how we plan on answering it.

example. how many gliders? how many diets do we want to test? how many gliders on that diet in the glider community? how long is this diet? how many vet visits? we also have to decide the exact ingredients for each diet we chose to do because there are modified versions that people use. Of course more, but once we all agree on them, someone can right up a proposal and send it out to the community. This is of course if the owners and admins of glider central agree that we could use this site to help get this giant ball of fun-ness going!

Those who read the proposal and agree to help, well agree and then we start a data base of names, numbers, locations, how many gliders, ages, the diet, exact measurements and ingredients, also need to know who they buy from (food from different regions have different pesticides and laws, ie honey from Australia may have different "stuff" in it then American). We can also have some one literally try to replicate the wild glider diet. Keep in mind a wild gliders do consume more calories due to higher activity levels and body regulations that pet gliders dont normally have too much problem with. Also get permissions from the creators of any diets tested to use them.

Also should weigh gliders every day, so a gram scale people will have to purchase.

I do think this is possible and i think it something that should be done.


LIVE life to the FULLEST, that way you really have no regrets when its over..


Mom to Pickles :grey: Precious :grey: Gizmo :rtmo: Ducky :wfb: and Dizzy :leu:
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: HappyToBeHere] #991403
08/14/10 06:38 PM
08/14/10 06:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
While we could do a "study" across the country with different members contributing as you suggested, it still does not meet the criteria for "scientific" as all gliders being studied/tested, need to be housed in the same place so that outside variables can be factored in. For example, I live in the country so my air quality is different from someone in the city. This could play into the test results.

For it to be a full unbiased "scientific" study, it needs to be ALL in a controlled location. This does take money. LOTS of money.

We could collect data from different people yes, and that may help us but that is different from a scientific study of glider diets.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: Dancing] #991409
08/14/10 06:56 PM
08/14/10 06:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
LabNGliderMom Offline OP
Glider Addict
LabNGliderMom  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
Yes, for a *true scientific* study it must be completed in a controlled environment...

and the money that would require might be a bit out of reach for the glider community at this moment...

but the idea of a study to collect fairly simple data and compile it for comparison's sake alone isn't a bad one IMO - better SOME form of data than NO data at all...

but don't get me wrong- I'd still love to see a true scientific and complete study done over many years.


Julie
Hubby: George
Kids: Ayla & Michael
Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
The Zoo: Midnight, Severe & Nala - Claude, Pixie, Tippy & Chili - Scout & Soluna, Theo & Deegie

http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com


Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: LabNGliderMom] #991411
08/14/10 07:03 PM
08/14/10 07:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 542
st.louis, missouri
HappyToBeHere Offline
Glider Lover
HappyToBeHere  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 542
st.louis, missouri
i realize we cant do that any time soon but i do agree with labnglidermom, some data is better than none. And even if the scientific community wont except whatever data we get, at least we'd have something that others can except.

There are many other factors, thats why we have controlled environment sets up and why i also listed location as a factor of evidence to collect. Among many other things. All that would be in a sense "published" with the rest of the data. If we could get a few people in each state (like 2 to each diet but do like 4 diets) we could still kinda cover the same environment problem, at least its in state...


LIVE life to the FULLEST, that way you really have no regrets when its over..


Mom to Pickles :grey: Precious :grey: Gizmo :rtmo: Ducky :wfb: and Dizzy :leu:
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: HappyToBeHere] #991462
08/14/10 09:38 PM
08/14/10 09:38 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 137
FL
J
jimbo Offline
Joey Member
jimbo  Offline
Joey Member
J

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 137
FL
Folks, who makes up these smarmy stories about SunCoast's motives and gliders dying and all that? First it was "all the gliders died during the study" and then when we pointed out this was not true, then comes the tarmac story and "all but one died after the study". That is also not true.

Where does this stuff come from and what is the purpose of it? Can't we have a civil discussion without all the skullduggery and insinuation?

And, why it this turning into a "diet fight"? In all these posts, I have never said one diet was better than the other, claimed SunCoast is smarter than everyone else, or anything like that. Those who think otherwise, show me the post.

I simply pointed out that a scientific study was done by a reputable and experienced animal nutritionist and there are things to be learned from reading the study. I also pointed out that the PhD animal nutritionist provided "next steps" that would have to be taken to really do a valid study on this topic. If those steps are not taken, then any diet analysis, of any kind, will go no further than this one did.

You can't measure systems you don't understand, as was pointed out in the study; what you got is clarification of the right questions to ask and can move to the next step. I'm very happy to see several people chiming in on this who also have practical experience in analytical techniques, and hopefully they will be listened to.

If unlimited resources and animals were available to conduct the study, there would have been lots of other steps that could have been taken. But nobody is claiming otherwise, are they? The community asked SunCoast to step up and participate, and we did. We didn't design the study, control it, or anything of the kind.

SunCoast supplied the animals, but it's not like other people were *excluded* from supplying animals. Is that a reason to call the study biased or a marketing ploy?

Because the study team could not get a variety of animals from different breeders, should the test just have been cancelled, and the community walk away from the unbelievable opportunity of a highly credentialed animal nutritionist volunteering to conduct the study? Is that what I am hearing you say, no info is better than some?

Detailed blood tests would have killed the gliders. Is that what you would like to have seen happen? The study was run until the funds ran out. Is that somebody's fault, other than a failure of the community to raise more money?

Things were learned. Future steps were outlined. Next?

You do realize that by setting the bar so high, by creating an impossible to fulfill dream study, by insisting that every possible issue is controlled out and the study last a full lifecycle, you are personally ensuring no further scientific research will be done by this community?

Is that what you want? Really?

No information is better than some?


Jimbo, Webmaster
SunCoast Sugar Gliders
http://www.sugar-gliders.com/
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: jimbo] #991473
08/14/10 09:54 PM
08/14/10 09:54 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
out of the 9 study gliders 8 did die, they were left on the tarmack, the deaths were noted in the study, lisa can validate my post

Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: jimbo] #991486
08/14/10 10:23 PM
08/14/10 10:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,782
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,782
St. Johns, Florida
Yep, I am enjoying time with family in the great city Orlando. Tomorrow I will go meet Mickey and Goofy and all the rest and I am sure I will feel like I fit right in!! roflmao

THIS is why I did NOT want any of this talk in the other thread. Gretchen, thank you for splitting it over there and keeping it on topic. I do appreciate it.

I also am in hopes that this thread can stay civil and we can all agree to disagree just as I do with Jimbo here.

Yes Jimbo, I DO think a NEW study NEEDS to be done. Is it something that will be done tomorrow or even by the end of this year? Who knows...but I do think that although a *start* of a study was done, does not mean it should stop there. Did Dr.D not say herself that more study was needed? Just like with any other writing, you can not just take out one or two parts that *you* want to point out but instead, you need to include all of it.

Bottom line the study was inconclusive. Yes, SOME things were indeed discovered, and are useful to know. Many things we learned we can continue learning from. NOBODY is *knocking* the study that was done, we are all just saying it would be nice to have a more complete study and to see what else can be learned.

Quote:
Where does this stuff come from and what is the purpose of it?


I dont have an answer to that question. But I do know that I, myself, was asked about the gliders from the study. I do recall hearing *through the grapevine* that all gliders but the one that Debbie Thomas took home with her (the one with the tail injury)all died. If this is not correct, please tell us what did happen to them. Are they indeed still alive? Please, we will listen. One thing I learned about this community lately, is even if we dont like someone, if that person says untruths were told, we WILL listen if you are willing to share the truth with us.

Did any of the gliders used in this study die?
Were necropsy's performed on them?
If so, do you know what the outcome was on them?

Quote:
And, why it this turning into a "diet fight"?


Lets hope it doesnt. Bottom line is NONE of our diets are perfect. Not yours, not mine, not Joe Schmoes. But I would also appreciate if you are going to keep saying your diet is *nutritionally tested* and has been *used for over 11 years* that you all make it clear that it is NOT Wholesome Balance you are speaking of. As that would be a false statement.

Also, if testing HAS been done on this diet, I have asked if you would share that info with us. What a better way for you to *teach* us but through the testing you say it has been through.

Do you think I should instead contact Dr.D herself and ask her? I really have no problems doing that at all. I would love to hear straight from her, so maybe when I get home, I will do that anyway. thumb

Quote:
I simply pointed out that a scientific study was done by a reputable and experienced animal nutritionist and there are things to be learned from reading the study.


Do you believe that Dr.D is the only *qualified* animal nutritionist out there? You come across like if anyone else even considered doing a new study of any kind it would not be worth anything. If that is not how you are wanting to come across, that is how I personally am reading it.

Quote:
Because the study team could not get a variety of animals from different breeders, should the test just have been cancelled, and the community walk away from the unbelievable opportunity of a highly credentialed animal nutritionist volunteering to conduct the study?


Unfortunately Jimbo, this is what I have seen many times over the years. Many folks want studies to be done, but when they find out what it entails, they change their minds and choose they dont want to be a part of it. Not knocking anyone for that, but it is a big stopper when it comes right down to it.

Quote:
Detailed blood tests would have killed the gliders.


Im not sure what tests you are speaking of, but just about every one of my gliders have had detailed blood work completed, and some more than once. The youngest done was on a 12 week old female joey and thank God, I have not lost one. So to say blood work would kill a glider is a myth. At least if it is done correctly it shouldnt.

Quote:
The study was run until the funds ran out. Is that somebody's fault, other than a failure of the community to raise more money?


I know my memory isnt all it used to be, but I do not recall anyone asking for anymore money from the community for this. Normally, if there is a call for help this community gives above and beyond more than any other group of individuals I have ever seen.

Quote:
You do realize that by setting the bar so high


See here is another issue...I started a thread ASKING QUESTIONS from our members to get some different ideas and concerns, and thoughts to pass on. No where was it ever stated that those questions were to start a new diet study. But by Dr. D's study being brought up, it sparked ambition from a group of amazing folks who just want to join together and do whatever they can to try to improve the lives of gliders. I dont see how that is wrong on ANY level.

HappyToBeHere, you asked my background...Im just a nobody who likes to do what they can to help out where they can the best they can. A published author of a glider care book and a slave to many gliders for many years.

I have been working with Dr.Tristan for the past 7 years where sugar gliders are concerned, I have read read read and read some more. I am just an owner who believes that the IMPORTANT stuff needs to be done the right way, the best way, and our records need to be kept by someone who can put them to use instead of in a file cabinet in one of our own offices. The more *professionals* we get involved the better.

I was told today that a study was done on the contents of a wild gliders stomach and intestines, I would like to see that, as I have searched high and low and for whatever reason for once, my researching skills are not working for me.

Instead of finding reasons why we should not TRY to move forward, maybe we should be trying to find reasons on HOW we can.

As for costs, when I get back home, I will find out that information for you all. IF I can...


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: Srlb] #991493
08/14/10 10:45 PM
08/14/10 10:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,750
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline
Owner
KarenE  Offline
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,750
LittleRock, AR USA
I'm not sure why all the arguing about a study that was done seven years ago with the finger pointing, but it needs to stop.

As one who was on staff at the time, we barely scrapped enough money together to the study at the time. Some of us even ended up giving more out of our own pockets to make up the short fall. Trying to raise additional funds would have been pointless.

As for the gliders that were returned to Suncoast, I honestly do not remember if there was a problem at the airport or not, but seven years later, what difference does it make to continue to beat that horse. The gliders did not die on the tarmac or even as soon as they arrived at Suncoast. I believe it was a few weeks later. I do not believe necropsies were done, so to continue to bring that up will do no good.

As several have mentioned, the information gained from the '03 study needs to be taken for what it was and a new study needs to be done.

We have several diets in use that have no scientific testing behind them including BML. Let me rephrase that. We have not seen the scientific data for the BML, but that does not keep people from using it and recommending it, does it? Come to think of it, haven't seen any for HPW, Darcey's or PP either. Maybe I just missed it dunno


Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help


Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: KarenE] #991519
08/14/10 11:21 PM
08/14/10 11:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 137
FL
J
jimbo Offline
Joey Member
jimbo  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 137
FL
6857 GC members, not all active or interested, I'd assume.

Those that are active or interested, do you have $5 you could donate to a new research effort? Maybe more?

What's the best way to do this, though one of the non-profits?


Jimbo, Webmaster
SunCoast Sugar Gliders
http://www.sugar-gliders.com/
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: jimbo] #991538
08/14/10 11:47 PM
08/14/10 11:47 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
dr d did a nutritional analysis on the BML many years ago, it was posted here on gc

Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: Bourbon] #991551
08/15/10 12:14 AM
08/15/10 12:14 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,750
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline
Owner
KarenE  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,750
LittleRock, AR USA
Apparently it has been lost. Could you repost it? We will make sure it does not get lost this time.


Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help


Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: KarenE] #991592
08/15/10 04:43 AM
08/15/10 04:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
JillMarie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
Peggy, I mentioned the wild glider stomach thing. I am searching for the article. I came across it while do some research into glider diets and they were mentioning how digestible bee pollen actually was. they mentioned fining it in the stomach but not in the intestines, so theorizing that they actually do 100% digest it. My bad, as sometimes I read something and file the info in my head for use later, but dont always keep a "hard copy"

As for testing...I have more questions (go figure)just to show how hard this would be

how long would the test go for? how long is long enough to see if a diet is a good one?
ages of gliders needed? perhaps, just like humans, dietary needs change with age, and a diet good for a younger glider may not be good for an older one?
I ask again where the gliders are going to come from for the study, who is willing to hand over their gliders for research? while I agree a study would be a great thing for all gliders, I am not willing to hand mine over. HOWEVER I think that many would be willing to do some record keeping. This is where good observation skills are needed. "good science starts with good observation" (who can quote the movie that line comes from?)
Getting a group on here that is willing to write down everything they do and feed with their gliders, get blood and x ray, take weights and measurements, keep a detailed record of everything they can, and after a set amount of time, get another blood test and x-ray done would be beneficial. A good scientist would be able to factor out small details like air quality and such to theorize if the diet was a sound one. Each animal would need to be tested also to be sure to be parasite free, as that can inhibit nutrient absorption.

I would be willing to keep records. But am not willing to hand over my furry kids. I would also be willing to contribute to someone who was going to do the test in a "controlled" environment. Jimbo has a point about that. I would contribute. Everyone (INCLUDING ME) wants a study done. Suncoast stepped up to the plate to help in the past, they are to be commended for that. that had to be a hard thing to do to offer up babies to an experiment to try to better it for everyone else.

Karen is right too though in that it needs to be dropped. This is not a diet contest. We learned form the test, now what can we do today to move forward and learn a bit more?

Has no one volunteered to fly to Australia, gather the food gliders eat in the wild, and test THAT? no one can test those items to see how we can copy it in the home?

I will take donations and I will go to Australia smile as long as Arwen can go with me.


:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: KarenE] #991595
08/15/10 05:08 AM
08/15/10 05:08 AM

B
Briarthorn
Unregistered
Briarthorn
Unregistered
B



Happytobehere vocalized many of my thoughts better than I could. Thanks. I would love to sit down with you, happy, and design something that we could bring to the community to work with. I think we are basically on the same page and could really take this somewhere. Perhaps we could put together a proposal over the next few months. Bring it to the diet makers to tweek it, then bring it to the community, tweek it again and see if we could take it somewhere withing the next year or so.

The Point of the study by the community would not be to have some perfect study to submit to a peer reviewed scientific journal. Lets keep it realistic. As Jimbo pointed out, that would take TONS of money and resources. What we need is something that we can use to make more informed decisions, something that the diet makes can use to tweek their creations, and something we can use as a stepping stone to perhaps one day get the lab controlled study many want. If over the next few years we can come up with something good, then interest for a bigger study may be withing sight. Grad students need to do a disertation on something after all, lol.

Anyway, The point of the study we do would be to collect data and do the best we can to figure out the best way to keep our gliders happy and healthy with more information than we have now. If we can collect good data and be clear on our variables that we are not controlling (something later, controlled may be able to address) our hard work could be used in future studies. During my research on Arabidopsis thaliana I routinely manipulated raw data sets collected by other researchers to answer questions I needed answered to further my research.

Someone will always have something to say about whatever we come up with. No matter how hard you try you can't make EVERYONE happy. We need to keep that in mind and not become discouraged.

I honestly feel that many of the variables we are concerned about can be accounted for, or at least minimized by tracking things like, cleaners, treats, laundry detergent (who knows maybe this study can shed light on this too, lots of data is soooo useful) If we sit down and think about it we can come up with something. As we begin actually doing this we will find ways to tweek it, things we haven't thought of before, etc. Research of this type is constantly evolving.

I think for our purposes it would actually be better to use gliders in our community. After all the diets we are looking at will be used by gliders in this enviroment and for our purposes this will have to do. At least to start with.

Remember what Happy and I are proposing is just a begining. Who knows where it will end up.

As for blood work. I am not sure monthy would be totally necessary. We want this to span a time of many years. Quarterly or even every 6mo might be enough. Monthly bloodwork could skew the results as well because of the stress and vets may be more willing to participate 2-4 times a year vs. 12. Also, for the vets not wanting to do it, once we have a proposal written up and a definate process we want to follow the blood work won't be for nothing. Individuals wanting to participate in the study will have a scientific outline of teh study describing the methods we want to use, the purpose of the study, the use of the data, etc. The vets I have used here in FL would be happy to help with this, as they too are still trying to figure out the best way to keep our little ones happy and healthy.

The absolute key here is to remember: Why we are doing this (happy and healthier suggies), Who are target audiance is (suggie pet owners, breeders, etc), How are we gonna do this (gliders in their current habitats), Nothing is ever PERFECT, there will ALWAYS be room to evolve and improve, but we MUST start somewhere!

Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: ] #991617
08/15/10 09:20 AM
08/15/10 09:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,276
usa
snowbabygliders Offline
Glider Guardian
snowbabygliders  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,276
usa
:gidea:



Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: snowbabygliders] #991631
08/15/10 10:01 AM
08/15/10 10:01 AM

B
Briarthorn
Unregistered
Briarthorn
Unregistered
B



A few more thoughts.

Many of yall have raised many good questions, I think my previous post answered many for what I am proposing but I'd like to stress a few points:

1. We are not out to say one diet is better than another. The makers of the many diets we use will all benefit from any information we gather to better assist them in tweeking their product for the better. There are many glider owners and having many options on diet is a good thing. People need choices to find what fits for them.

2. We need to keep it simple. People won;t participate if it too costly and complicated.

3. This is a data collection effort to assist us in zeroing in on the questions that need to be asked. X-rays, tons of bloodwok each month, and making people completely change how they are living misses the point. We need information on REAL gliders in their current enviroments. If we collect enough data we can use it to find other areas we need to look at, not just diet. Let's not limit ourselves. We may find gliders on this diet tend to react to these cleaners this way, etc. Who knows. Let's keep it open for now. Also, most people don;t have unlimited resources for testing. Limiting the testing to twice a year or so will allow more people to participate and help us to weed out enviromental anomolies.

4. The longer you collect data the better you can find trends. It will probably take many years before we come up with any real solid answers. But we'll get good insights we can use along the way. This study could go on forever as long as there are people willing to send me (or whoever is compiling) the data, and someone is willing to crunch the numbers.

5. Keep personal feeling out of it. This is an information effort not an attack on anyone specifically. Any information derived from this effort will be used to further research into this field, to assist glider owners into making better choices, and to assist diet makers in thier creation of diets.

6. Stay Flexible. What works today may need tweeked tomorrow.


Also, how difficult would it be to start a fund to help people pay for the bloodtests, especially if someones got alot of gliders.



Last edited by Briarthorn; 08/15/10 10:04 AM. Reason: I type like a four year old.
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: ] #991675
08/15/10 11:51 AM
08/15/10 11:51 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 137
FL
J
jimbo Offline
Joey Member
jimbo  Offline
Joey Member
J

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 137
FL
Briarthorn, that's wonderful, so well said.

Perhaps we could have 2 efforts, the larger community tracking study, which would take place over a long period of time as you described, and be about diets / husbandry.

Then a much smaller one, just focused on answering the questions raised by the first study, which would benefit the analysis of any diet and perhaps provide crucial info to interpreting the long-term study.

For example, the question raised on whether gliders have the enzyme for making their own vitamin C seems pretty critical. Or the issue on blood carrier and storage proteins for iron.

More knowledge in this area would allow better interpretation of data gleaned from *any* study.

As was pointed out in the first study, it is very difficult to analyze results when knowledge of the underlying systems is lacking. Example: How does one know what amount of Vitamin C is too much or too little when one does not know if gliders have the enzyme for making their own vitamin C?

For that matter, some of these scientific questions may have already been answered in the academic literature during the past 7 years and we simply don't know it. Perhaps someone in the community either has experience with this literature or knows someone who does that could help with this.

How do we keep this moving forward?


Jimbo, Webmaster
SunCoast Sugar Gliders
http://www.sugar-gliders.com/
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: jimbo] #991761
08/15/10 02:14 PM
08/15/10 02:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,092
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,092
North Central Ohio
Briarthorn, excellent points!


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: GliderNursery] #991817
08/15/10 04:33 PM
08/15/10 04:33 PM

J
JamieInWA
Unregistered
JamieInWA
Unregistered
J



I would love to see a proposal for a study. Some data is better than no data. I would love this idea to come to fruition.

Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: ] #992019
08/16/10 12:29 AM
08/16/10 12:29 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 542
st.louis, missouri
HappyToBeHere Offline
Glider Lover
HappyToBeHere  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 542
st.louis, missouri
Briarthorn if i lived any where near Florida we'd be having lunch tomorrow... well if i didnt have to work! I'd be willing to help out in anyway possible. It will be hard since its my last year in college so i have my plate full, but this is something im curious and passionate about!

Ill see if any thing comes up in academic journals about new studies being done on sugar gliders. Its limited here but i might find something.

I do think that the conversation about the past studies should be dropped, this is about the future now, and about our fur children. But not forgotten, they are as been said stepping stones. Just like if this lovely ball gets rolling ours will be too, to some future study.

So im ready. Ill take some time tomorrow after work to do some research. If we can get a proposal going we can send it out to the public and see if we have the amount of people who are willing, and vets too.

Research first on any thing new, like wild glider diets and anything new. And we really need to find the key purpose of our project. If its not to make a new diet or to get rid of ones we have now, then i would say its a way to improve what we have now for the benefit of all fur kids.

And i really think we'd be surprised, this may not go in the science world (because we arent in a stable one place same variables lab) but i do think many people would enjoy to see this done, by a community that cares. It will prove that if enough people do care about something as a whole, that anything, money or not, can be done, i think that says a lot about us.


LIVE life to the FULLEST, that way you really have no regrets when its over..


Mom to Pickles :grey: Precious :grey: Gizmo :rtmo: Ducky :wfb: and Dizzy :leu:
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: HappyToBeHere] #992020
08/16/10 12:38 AM
08/16/10 12:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 542
st.louis, missouri
HappyToBeHere Offline
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HappyToBeHere  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 542
st.louis, missouri
Oh first thing first i guess, Briarthorn, if you're up for this, i think you should in a way be the lead. You sound well educated, and to be honest better at this than i am. I will help in any ways possible, but to me i feel like you may be the right one to get things going.

This sounds like it will be a national... and im sure some international GC people may want to help too. So many people will need to help with the process. But one person should have it all filtered to, to put it all in one place and together. With lots of help though! That will be a lot of emails and phone calls!! So maybe have someone in charge of each state (if we can get enough in each state to participate) then have someone over the west coast, another the central, and also the east coast, to retrieve all the data. THEN that one person who gets all that data and slowly forms what we need over the course of the next...well... how ever long we decide this study should take.

just a thought wink


LIVE life to the FULLEST, that way you really have no regrets when its over..


Mom to Pickles :grey: Precious :grey: Gizmo :rtmo: Ducky :wfb: and Dizzy :leu:
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: HappyToBeHere] #992021
08/16/10 12:40 AM
08/16/10 12:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 542
st.louis, missouri
HappyToBeHere Offline
Glider Lover
HappyToBeHere  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 542
st.louis, missouri
oh i also vote that we all meet on some island once a year (all inclusive) to "talk" bout our study and you know work out any issues, meet each other, and keep things strong! laugh


LIVE life to the FULLEST, that way you really have no regrets when its over..


Mom to Pickles :grey: Precious :grey: Gizmo :rtmo: Ducky :wfb: and Dizzy :leu:
Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: HappyToBeHere] #992088
08/16/10 04:41 AM
08/16/10 04:41 AM

B
Briarthorn
Unregistered
Briarthorn
Unregistered
B



Good point Jimbo, we really should look up what we've missed in the past seven years.

Thanks for volunteering for this Happy. Since your still in college you'll have free access to many of the peer-review journals. I have very limited free acess to those here. Remember to try avoid the journals that are not peer reviewed. It's too difficult to weed out the good info and bad in those, we can alway sgo back to these once we get a good handle on whats happening now. I guess a good starting point will be the questions raised in this thread. The vita C enzymes, etc. I still have my cell bio books so I can get you any of the "scientific" terminologies on protein foldig, enzyme making, blah blah blah. I also have extensive experience in analyzing scientific studies. If you find somehting and you want to vet it through me just let me know. You can email it to me at briarthorn1@gmail.com. If you have trouble emailing some of the articles just print them and mail them to me. I'll PM you my address if you need it. I will also begin diging through things on my end. I need to brush up on the psyiology of these little guys.

Lucky for us this is the age of technology. We will be able to have confrences, meetings and pow wows using Skype, Web Cams, and Ventrilo/Teamspeak. All are free. Ventrilo I think would work best for our purposes. It has the best clarity and we can buy servers where over 100 of us could be in listening, talking, chatting, etc.

I have no problems getting this thing started. So if you guys want I can take the lead now for purposes of organizing and gathering everyones ideas. I can also begin to put together an outline for the rough rough rough draft of the proposal.

This is what I need you guys to do at this stage:

1. PM or email me suggestions on what you want to be tracked and questions you want to be asked so I can start on the paperwork. Please send an explaination with your suggestion/question.
EX: Laundry Detergent used - the gliders spend most of their time in contact with things washed in different detergents. It is an important variable to track to ensure that trends in data are not dependant on chemicals from the wash leeching into gliders through their skin.

2. Funding must be considered. We'll need to decided if we want to make an account that can be used to pay for things like a ventrilo server, bloodwork, and/or a website. We'll need to put someone in charge of the account (not me) and decide how we will give people access to it. Maybe only pay out directly to the vets?

3. Lets also get some type of organization going. I can take lead as happy suggested, for now at least. I don't mind managing the data and doing some research. I can also be the main POC in coordinating between the different facets of this. But we should probably break things up a bit more. Who will be in charge of money? Who's gonna make the website? Who will start calling vets? And who will be in the decision making process. I figure we should have a committee of some sort, we need to decide who we want on it and how to keep it unbiased, maybe have community votes? All things we need to bang out.

4. We need to decide how to make determinations on who will participate, what gliders will be used, etc. We will also have to come up with a way to track the data in sets so that we can still us it when people drop out or come in once we've started. This part can be tricky, but luckly I have a wee bit of experience in this, and know people with much more.

5. STAY POSITIVE and keep the point in site: HAPPY GLIDERS!

Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: ] #992233
08/16/10 12:36 PM
08/16/10 12:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 137
FL
J
jimbo Offline
Joey Member
jimbo  Offline
Joey Member
J

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 137
FL
I think if we can figure out where the sources are, we might be surprised by what we find. I know I was when I read the original study and saw all the footnotes.

And from time to time I see folks from Australia posting who seem to have research backgrounds and are quoting studies, so perhaps they will chime in with sources.

Not sure if we can create a "library" of these sources that's open to the entire web, but we *might* be able to get special permission to re-publish some of it for a group like this, for viewing by anyone with an account, for example.


Jimbo, Webmaster
SunCoast Sugar Gliders
http://www.sugar-gliders.com/
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