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Platinum coloring #887040
12/28/09 11:40 AM
12/28/09 11:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 644
Cincinnati, OH
tacasper Offline OP
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tacasper  Offline OP
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Cincinnati, OH
I'm looking to learn more about the platinum genes.

I've seen a lot of platinums advertised as hets, which would make the trait a recessive gene. BUT I've also seen people breeding platinum with non-platinum to try to produce platinums, which would make it dominate. I'm a little confused. Does it only take one parent to produce platinum or both?


Teri

Owner of lots of beautiful suggies!
:bb: :wfb: :leu: :rtmo: :cream: :plat:

My fabulous rescue Nanuk
And Kiesha waiting in heaven

And two OCD and neurotic bulldogs Capone and Aspen!


www.sugarhighgliders.com


Re: Platinum coloring [Re: tacasper] #887071
12/28/09 12:58 PM
12/28/09 12:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,855
Orlando, FL
Tish84 Offline
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Sheila (To and Fro) would probably be your best bet here on Platinum gene Q's.


TISH

Lana (Siberian Husky)
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:bb: :leu: :wfb: :rtmo: :cream:
Lily Fawkes Kingsley Ice Regulus Romeo Mimkin Saturn Jupiter Taiyou Kat Julianna

Glide Free My little Lily And Ice (Miss you every day)


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Re: Platinum coloring [Re: Tish84] #887094
12/28/09 01:59 PM
12/28/09 01:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
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Sheila  Offline
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Ok
People are most likely breeding out the line (breeding platinum to non platinum het) because there are only a couple of lines.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: Sheila] #887815
12/30/09 01:19 PM
12/30/09 01:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 644
Cincinnati, OH
tacasper Offline OP
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tacasper  Offline OP
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So are you able to produce platinum with one parent or do both need to be carriers?


Teri

Owner of lots of beautiful suggies!
:bb: :wfb: :leu: :rtmo: :cream: :plat:

My fabulous rescue Nanuk
And Kiesha waiting in heaven

And two OCD and neurotic bulldogs Capone and Aspen!


www.sugarhighgliders.com


Re: Platinum coloring [Re: tacasper] #887818
12/30/09 01:26 PM
12/30/09 01:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
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Glide_Bye_Lily  Offline
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As far as I know, both need to be carriers...


Allie
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: tacasper] #887819
12/30/09 01:30 PM
12/30/09 01:30 PM

E
ErichB
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ErichB
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E



Both Parent's need to be carriers because it is an recessive trait. If the Platinum's were dominate then we'd see a lot more of them! But sadly they are not, people breed a 100% "het"erozygous glider to a non-carrier as Sheila has said because there are so few lines so it would make sense to space them out with fresh genetics.

~Erich

Re: Platinum coloring [Re: ] #887823
12/30/09 01:36 PM
12/30/09 01:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 644
Cincinnati, OH
tacasper Offline OP
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tacasper  Offline OP
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That is what I thought, but I've seen some people who were breeding a platinum with a non-het and were EXPECTING to get platinum, so I was wondering how they were going to get it.

Thanks!


Teri

Owner of lots of beautiful suggies!
:bb: :wfb: :leu: :rtmo: :cream: :plat:

My fabulous rescue Nanuk
And Kiesha waiting in heaven

And two OCD and neurotic bulldogs Capone and Aspen!


www.sugarhighgliders.com


Re: Platinum coloring [Re: tacasper] #887828
12/30/09 02:01 PM
12/30/09 02:01 PM

E
eden
Unregistered
eden
Unregistered
E



Considering how few platinums there are and the fact that hets for platinum and even platinums themselves do not seem to produce very many platinum offspring and also that the trait seems to be passed down through many generations with carriers or "hets" I would not be too quick to call it recessive. In fact, I would be cautious about claiming that it follows simple mendellian inheritance at all. It could very well be a combination of more than one gene at work instead of just one. It just seems very odd to me that this trait so often is passed down through many generations before producing an actual platinum but the number of generations removed from the original ancestor doesn't seem to dilute the chances of carrying the gene. It almost seems like it is passed down through generations much easier than simple recessive traits but has less of a chance of actually being seen in a homozygous form. I think it is a little too early to say that it is anything for sure but it does seem very similar to recessive.

Re: Platinum coloring [Re: ] #889032
01/02/10 11:24 PM
01/02/10 11:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
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Sheila  Offline
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Ok
It is recessive. We have produced 5 platinum babies since Sept. It is not several generations as you say. You need to look closer at it.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: Sheila] #889179
01/03/10 04:21 PM
01/03/10 04:21 PM

E
eden
Unregistered
eden
Unregistered
E



Sheila, what I meant was that there are many Gliders that are from original Frodo/Cereal lines but for some reason the gene has been passed from Frodo all the way through a number of generations before one of the carriers actually produces a platinum offspring. The carriers that are descendents of Frodo were bred with gliders that do not have platinum in their background which should have lessened the chances of the next generation being carriers, but it seems fairly common for the trait to be passed to the next generation and the next and the next etc until finally it is paired with another carrier and platinums are produced. Perhaps it is recessive and just simply more resilient when passing through the generations and being outcrossed, it is just a little bit odd so I am more reluctant to call it anything for sure just yet.

Last edited by eden; 01/03/10 04:23 PM.
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: ] #889591
01/05/10 10:39 AM
01/05/10 10:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
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Port Saint Lucie, FL
Quite personally I dont think the gene originated with "Frodo". Being there are specific offspring out of Frodo/Noel that have passed on and produced this trait but I haven't seen or heard of any with the Frodo/Lily pairings also producing the platinum. I would tend to think it originated with Noel, rather than Frodo.

And since they were part of our founding WF stock so MANY gliders share Frodo lineage I think we would have seen more of it if it was from "him".

Whether or not it is truly just simple recessive, maybe not. But the frequency of breeding that Frodo/Noel plat line back to itself seems to produce them very reliably. That and whatever correlation it also seems to have with the leu gene.

My theory anyways, not saying anyone else is wrong.


Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: MatchMakerMagic] #889599
01/05/10 11:20 AM
01/05/10 11:20 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,855
Orlando, FL
Tish84 Offline
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Tish84  Offline
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Posts: 1,855
Orlando, FL
Hmmm...interesting


TISH

Lana (Siberian Husky)
2 Turtles
Bunny
:bb: :leu: :wfb: :rtmo: :cream:
Lily Fawkes Kingsley Ice Regulus Romeo Mimkin Saturn Jupiter Taiyou Kat Julianna

Glide Free My little Lily And Ice (Miss you every day)


www.fancysuggies.com
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: Tish84] #889609
01/05/10 12:03 PM
01/05/10 12:03 PM

E
eden
Unregistered
eden
Unregistered
E



I always wondered if it actually came from Cereal but I guess we would need more info on the Gliders that came before Frodo or Noel in their lineage. I don't want to step on anyones toes by asking this...but is it possible that Frodo and Noel were either siblings or cousins and had the same descendent like Cereal?

Re: Platinum coloring [Re: ] #889649
01/05/10 02:03 PM
01/05/10 02:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
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MatchMakerMagic  Offline
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Cereal is in nearly EVERY single WF lineage out there. I doubt it was from him either. Frodo is out of Cereal/Hera, Noel on the other hand is out of Francis/Shug, unrelated 100%. From what I can tell (from recorded lineage in the databases) Noel only had 11 or so joeys. And from her parents the only one I know of is her.

That would leave me thinking the Plat gene is coming from her side, mother/father.

Last edited by MatchMakerMagic; 01/05/10 02:04 PM.

Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: MatchMakerMagic] #889651
01/05/10 02:05 PM
01/05/10 02:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
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MatchMakerMagic  Offline
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Port Saint Lucie, FL
However the best person to ask about Noel's line and offspring (as well as her parents I imagine) would be Sheila. I believe she was the one who paired Noel/Frodo/Lily.


Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: MatchMakerMagic] #889662
01/05/10 02:26 PM
01/05/10 02:26 PM

E
eden
Unregistered
eden
Unregistered
E



Thanks Kinue, thats really interesting

Re: Platinum coloring [Re: ] #889678
01/05/10 02:43 PM
01/05/10 02:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
Glider Addict
MatchMakerMagic  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Port Saint Lucie, FL
No problem Kristen.


Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: MatchMakerMagic] #889853
01/06/10 12:06 AM
01/06/10 12:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis
Sheila  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Actually Noel and Frodo had 16 joeys together. They are on the Data Base now.
I don't agree with this theory. I will try to explain why.
When the WFB's first came about 8 years ago - or when I purchased Noel, Frodo, and Lily, we only thought at that time there was one line. Frodo and Lily were purchased as a pair and Noel was added to make a trio. Before I purchased them I went searching for other bloodlines. No one advertized them at that time. There was a website called "Breederlist.com" that had breeders from United States and Canada. I contacted every breeder on that list (over 300) asking if they had any blonde gliders. I finally got a response from Susan of FFR. She had a blonde line and was holding several from her stock, but had not let any go yet. In March after I received my trio(in the fall) I purchased Mozart. I then had an unrelated pair, but chose to breed Mozart with a normal colored female. When Frodo, Noel and Lily were about 1.5 years old, I started to sell offspring and they sold for $450 for 1 Gen and more for second Gens. This was very expensive and people generally could only afford one. breeders started discovering that if you put two first gen's together the gene was stronger so they started purchasing pairs which were scarce. As time went on, if any of these gliders had had any platinum gene, it was bred out throughout the generations of breeding these gliders with other lines. After the first platinum was produced it was thought that the gene was co-dominate, but later learned it was recessive when Rebecca repeated the same genetic pattern in her breeding program to produce Mr. Sambuca. It was at that time that it all unfolded and more was learned about the gene. If the gene originated from Frodo and Noel or Frodo and Lily only half of their joeys could have been platinum hets and most of those were never bred to anything that would have produced platinums. There are a lot more babies that Lily had that are not on the database, but if you look at the babies her babies had, they would be all paired with blondes and nothing else. There was one joey that Lucky You owns that was out of Hercules from KDR and it looked to have some platinum coloring. Hercules's grandparents were Frodo and Lily. Because most of these older blonde lines were not bred to anything but other blondes to get higher generations, it is hard to say that the gene was isolated to Frodo and Noel.
Oh one more thing. I did see Cereal in person. At the time I didn't know that there was a gene such as platinum, but I never saw a blonde as pretty as him and never produced one as pretty. It is most likely that he was platinum or a champagne platinum WFB, and that is why I never could produce one that look liked him.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: Sheila] #889932
01/06/10 09:56 AM
01/06/10 09:56 AM

N
NGS
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NGS
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Does anyone have any pictures of Cereal?

Last edited by NGS; 01/06/10 09:57 AM.
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: ] #889934
01/06/10 09:59 AM
01/06/10 09:59 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,855
Orlando, FL
Tish84 Offline
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Tish84  Offline
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Posts: 1,855
Orlando, FL
I was wondering that as well.


TISH

Lana (Siberian Husky)
2 Turtles
Bunny
:bb: :leu: :wfb: :rtmo: :cream:
Lily Fawkes Kingsley Ice Regulus Romeo Mimkin Saturn Jupiter Taiyou Kat Julianna

Glide Free My little Lily And Ice (Miss you every day)


www.fancysuggies.com
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: Tish84] #889991
01/06/10 12:41 PM
01/06/10 12:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis
Sheila  Offline
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Posts: 5,363
Ok
This is the only published picture of him. People hardly had digital cameras back then.
Cereal on the right


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: Sheila] #889998
01/06/10 12:55 PM
01/06/10 12:55 PM

E
eden
Unregistered
eden
Unregistered
E



Thank you Sheila! That is really interesting, definitely raises more questions though lol

Do you think it is some sort of mutation of the WFB trait or do you think it is some sort of hidden gene that expresses itself when paired with another Glider with a trait that brings it out?

Re: Platinum coloring [Re: Sheila] #889999
01/06/10 12:56 PM
01/06/10 12:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
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Too bad its in such bad light. He was a hansome guy.

And your probably right Sheila, I just figured it wouldn't be as easy as Cereal or there would be more that would have popped up by the time breeders began breeding Leu to WF (since that seemed to be the first color mixed with Leu lines).


Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: MatchMakerMagic] #890011
01/06/10 01:24 PM
01/06/10 01:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
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Glide_Bye_Lily  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
Aren't there platinums that aren't WFB?

Then it wouldn't be a mutation of WFB but it's own trait.... right?

Sheila- isn't your Cadbury a non-WFB platinum? Maybe my eyes are deceiving me...lol! grin

Last edited by Glide_Bye_Lily; 01/06/10 01:26 PM.

Allie
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #890018
01/06/10 02:11 PM
01/06/10 02:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
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Adri  Offline
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Homestead, FL
Platinums do not have to be white face. It is a different gene. Platinums are recessive & white face are co-dominant.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



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Re: Platinum coloring [Re: Adri] #890050
01/06/10 04:14 PM
01/06/10 04:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
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North Central Ohio
My platinum Nicky is not a WF. You have to look, but you can see bars under his ears.



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Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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Re: Platinum coloring [Re: GliderNursery] #891754
01/11/10 09:16 AM
01/11/10 09:16 AM

E
ErichB
Unregistered
ErichB
Unregistered
E



Just a thought but could platinum be past on as a autozygous trate instead of a hetoerozygous in this case because most of the decendants that produce Platinums have similar IBD I.e Cereal or Frodo, Lilly. etc..

~Erich

Last edited by ErichB; 01/11/10 09:20 AM.
Re: Platinum coloring [Re: ] #891826
01/11/10 01:31 PM
01/11/10 01:31 PM

E
eden
Unregistered
eden
Unregistered
E



That is an excellent theory Erich. Unfortunately, without knowing the ancestors far enough back in the lineages it is almost impossible to prove that. Being Autozygous would mean that each of the platinum lines descended from a single ancestor where the random mutation that created platinum actually occurred and then each line would have to be inbred enough that every platinum contains two copies of an identical allele that has not changed in any way from the original ancestral allele.

Also, Autozygous is not actually a description of a pattern of inheritance, it is describing the origin of that trait. Almost all homozygous traits are by definition autozygous because they descend from the same ancestor where the mutation first occurred. A trait would be allozygous if both alleles were from different random mutations (or ancestral origins) or if one or both allele had mutated in such a way that it was no longer identical to the ancestral allele. It is a great way to help understand the platinum trait but it does not answer the question of how is the trait inherited (recessive? sex linked? etc)

Last edited by eden; 01/11/10 01:40 PM.

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