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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: Srlb] #829253
08/28/09 08:56 PM
08/28/09 08:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,945
Miami, Fl
reeny Offline
Glider Slave
reeny  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,945
Miami, Fl
Well sorry this took me so long to get on this post.

But I call Peggy this morning and was concerned about this post. Because much like Nicole I have a breeding pair that has had joeys back to back and now have not had any joeys. As a of this am I didn't feel anything and this is not like them.

I am concerned because I bought some meal worm bedding from Nicole earlier in the summer. I believe it was early July when she got the recall from Bulk Foods. I was having my vet inspection for my USDA license and told her about the recall and she culture the bedding that I got from Nicole. The bags were sealed when I received them. I only used approximately 1/3 of one of the bags.


The culture grew:

Heavy growth of Enterbacter Agglomerans
Heavy growth of Staph Aureus
No Salmonella sp. isolated.

The staph could have been a contaminate. The vet was concerned about the Enterbacter but said the worms should destroy the bacteria. She said that she consulted different opinions. She said if it was her farm she would continue to use it.

I took her advise. I clean my farm all the time. I didn't use any more of the bedding from Nicole just in case. The vet said that if any of my gliders appear sick we could consider the source being the meal worm farm.

My gliders have been fine. Stools are normal and the cultures that have been done on new member all negative.

The only common factor that I have with Nicole is that some of my gliders have taken a break from breeding. Daffodil and Dandelion last joeys 5/22, and Daisy and Sweet William haven't had joeys since the triplets on Dec 12th. That could be an entirely different issue. I would take a break after triplets too.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Reeny
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"The Flower Patch Gang"

Blossom & Buttercup
Bella & Bug
Mona & Poppy
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Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: Srlb] #829259
08/28/09 09:03 PM
08/28/09 09:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline OP
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Gil was food-aggressive, that's all. I contacted Sheila(I got Gil from her) and found out that his father also became food-aggressive recently and she had to separate him from his mate as well.

I put Gil with a colony of 3 girls(66% cremino hets. They were supposed to go with Sysko, my albino het boy) because I thought that putting him in a colony situation would help with his food-aggression, and it did. He was still a little crabby at first, but within a few weeks he had completely stopped being food-aggressive.

Unfortunately, 2 of the females(Rosa and Delia) ended up fighting once they had joeys IP, so I had to split them into 2 groups(I put Delia and Violet in a different cage and left Rosa with Gil).

I was actually originally thinking about neutering Gil because I thought that would help, but Sheila told me it wouldn't help. She told me that I should completely isolate(as in, a completely different room...away from all other gliders...in a cage by himself) him for a couple months and that would make him so desperate for the companionship of another glider that he would stop being food-aggressive.

Personally, I thought that was a cruel method, so I decided to try him with the girls first. He enjoyed being in a colony and it helped him. So, I did what I thought was best for both gliders(Silvara and Gil). I know my gliders better then anyone else does and know what's best for them. If I would have isolated Gil he would have gotten extremely stressed because he is a VERY social glider and I do not think he would have tolerated being alone.

Sometimes 2 gliders just aren't a good match.

I've had to separate pairs a couple times, but each time I did it because it was what was best for my gliders. I've also neutered/retired alot of gliders because I felt that there were potential health problems(3 mosaics, a WF, a 100% leu het, and a leu) or because I didn't feel they would be good to breed(like with Carmine. He injured Skylar twice: once before I got her and once afterwards. So, rather then pairing him with someone else, I neutered him because I didn't think it was a good idea to allow him to try and breed again and risk hurting another girl).


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: Srlb] #829260
08/28/09 09:03 PM
08/28/09 09:03 PM

M
monluvspagen
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monluvspagen
Unregistered
M



Smidgin is adorable!

Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: ] #829279
08/28/09 09:42 PM
08/28/09 09:42 PM

T
TWilson
Unregistered
TWilson
Unregistered
T



Originally Posted By: mgrizz89
Originally Posted By: TWilson


Also, I wanted to add this about Nicole's glider with the yeast infection. It was suggested that the cause maybe the use of antibotics. I've had many rescues that have been on antibotics for different reasons and I've never had one develope a yeast infection.


tmi, I know, but an example:
you are hinting that antibiotics should be eliminated as a source of the yeast infection, which is why I'm doing this.
This is my understanding and personal experience.
A yeast infection is caused by an inbalance of certain bacterias required for the body to function correctly.
When there is an inbalance the body makes noticeable signs to show that somethings not right.
Antibiotics are used to kill off the bad things going on w/ a body (i.e. bacteria).

if antibiotics can be ruled out then why does my doctor prescribe me meds to fix a yeast infection that ALWAYS occurs after I have taken antibiotics for a bladder infection?

Just a thought.
I look at the furbutts as little people. Why couldn't something that happens to humans, happen to our little guys? (no, it won't all be exactly the same, I hope nobody thinks I'm ignorant in saying that - it's my opinion)


No, sorry you misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't hinting that the antibotics be elimated as causing the yeast infection in the gliders pouch, only pointing out that I've had several gliders that were prescribed Baytril and none of them ever got a yeast infection in their pouch from it. Futhermore, there have been many other gliders that have had injuries or illness worse than what I've had and their gliders have had to be treated with antibotics long term and I've not heard of any of them ending up with a yeast infection in their pouch.

I'm fully aware that antibotics work by wiping out bacteria, that means the good along with the bad. ALL of my gliders that have been on Baytril ended up with diarrhea due to the fact that it killed the good bacteria in their intestines.

Your doctor prescribes you meds to treat a yeast infection after antibotics, mine too because yogurt will not cure or ward it off. The antibotics will kill all the beneficial active bacteria in the yogurt too.

Just thought about Lynsie's glider Lydia, I believe she did get a yeast infection in her pouch from antibotics but Lynsie's glider was on antibotics for a LONG time, not just a round of Baytril.

Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: ] #829294
08/28/09 10:17 PM
08/28/09 10:17 PM

L
lovely1inred
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lovely1inred
Unregistered
L



A person's liability of a yeast infection has a lot of different factors - some women are put on antibiotics and never get one, others ask for the medications the minute they are prescribed an antibiotic because they know from past experience, they will get a yeast infection. I wonder with gliders if they have similar chances of developing or not developing a yeast infection.

I'm really curious if anyone has ever put plain yogurt in a glider's pouch before to help restore the yeast/bacteria balance. I know it sounds weird but it works on us.

Nicole I sure hope this gets sorted out, I just don't think it's fair you keep getting glider problems rained on you. *hugs*

Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: ] #829305
08/28/09 10:42 PM
08/28/09 10:42 PM

7
7glider7
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7glider7
Unregistered
7



I'm sorry that you are having such problems with sick gliders frown In my humble opinion, based on reading the thread, I would get rid of ALL of the bedding and ALL of the worms and start from scratch. I realize this might be costly, but since it sounds like you have excellent practices in terms of keeping their food clean, the bedding seems like a very possible source of toxins.

Also, the sources you read about grain mites being harmless...harmless to who? People? The worms? The animals that eat the worms? I would want more info. For instance, if a flea is ingested by an animal, it can cause tapeworms. Could it be possible that ingesting some sort of grain mite could cause a parasite or other health problems in a glider? Since gliders and many other animals that eat things like mealworms are not as well-studied as critters like dogs and cats, I find it possible that these mites could have an impact that is not well known but could be harmful.

Just my two cents since two people who have used this bedding are seeing behavioral changes in their gliders.

I hope you get to the bottom of this and that everything turns out to be OK hug2

Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: ] #829319
08/28/09 11:09 PM
08/28/09 11:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline OP
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Okay, this is going to be a bit long...

I wanted to post that I may have found something!

People were mentioning alot about the grain mites and, in my original research I had mostly searched on how to get rid of/prevent them and, in those articles the only "danger" I'd seen mentioned was them going after grain and being a nuisance, so I'd dismissed them as being a possible cause of what's going on with my gliders.

However, because they were brought up again, I just did a little more research and look what I found: http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/GQ/GQ-13.html

Quote:
Heavily infested grain and feed become tainted and unpalatable as animal feed. When fed infested commodity, small companion animals (e.g., dogs) can show reduced feed intake, diarrhea, inflammation of the small intestine, and impaired growth. Pigs that consume mite-infested feed have their live-weight gain, feed:gain ratio, and nitrogen retention markedly reduced.


...

The first gliders to get sick were Arby and Chief and I noticed something was wrong in the beginning because they were SOOOO small. I posted about it even, but it was dismissed as being just a "fluke" because sometimes joeys are just smaller, so I didn't think much of it. THEN, the next "symptom" was diarrhea! Of course, we then attributed that to the giardia.

Well, after 2 full treatments and well over a month, they STILL had diarrhea and we couldn't figure out why!

Now I think we might have our answer...

Also, I always feed my females with joeys more mealies then I do my other gliders, so that would explain why 1)Leda and Rosa got sick, 2)why Precious pulled her joeys, and 3)why my other girls seem to have gone on a breeding strike!

When I first discovered the mites, it was by accident. I'd picked up my container and my fingers felt all dusty, which I thought was odd. I took a closer look and there were THOUSANDS of mites on the container! It looked just like dust from the wheat bran, which is why I hadn't noticed it before.

Well, after taking the farm out, I took a better look around my glider room and they were EVERYWHERE! On the walls, the floor, the cages,...EVERYWHERE! There were millions of them!

I totally freaked out and hubby and I pulled out every single cage THAT DAY and power-washed and bleached them and then mopped down the entire glider room with bleach(floors, walls, the ceiling...everything!). I also washed all of the gliders' bedding in the washer in hot water and dried it on high heat AND I cut and made brand-new pouches right then and there, which I also washed and dried before switching the gliders all to the new pouches and putting them into the freshly-washed cages.

We put the term "deep-clean" to the test!

I also put my beetle farm(the mealies were in a different room and I saw no mites in there, the beetles, on the other hand, had been in the glider room because I wanted that part of the farm warmer so they'd lay more eggs), which had thousands of beetles and probably at least 100,000 baby mealies/eggs in it, outside in a large tupperware. Unfortunately, I left them outside and forgot about them, so, by morning, they were all fried and dead, so everything got thrown out.

I still find stray mights here and there, but no infestations and I was told that it was normal to have a few grain mites because we live out in the country. So, I never thought much about it since then. :\

Anyways...I'm going to talk to my vet about it tomorrow(or Monday, if she's not in tomorrow) and see what she thinks. I'll also look around and see if I can find any stray little buggers to bring to the vet.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: ] #829330
08/28/09 11:34 PM
08/28/09 11:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis
Judie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
The mealworm farm... I have to agree that it needs to be dumped and along with the worms.

I have raised mealies in the past... but always with bedding that was made with baby rice cereal, wheat germ, wheat bran with Rep Cal added and also layered newspaper on top of the bedding. Bedding still needs to be turned daily and I would only add apple or carrot chips. Too much fruit or veggies and moisture will build up and then a problem of mold.

I would not even consider mealworm bedding with puppy milk or any other milk product. My concern would that it would eventually become tainted.

You might consider changing your diet... since the one you are feeding does not seem healthy for some unknown reason.

Purchasing bulk products need to be refrigerated or better yet frozen. Over time... dry food products loose some of their nutritional value thus best to freeze. Open products of dry food being used rather quickly... can be stored in the frigerator.

Mold is highly toxic to gliders. Even if bugs eat the mold they are not affected but when the glider eats the tainted bug... the glider's liver then can be permanently damaged.

So.... 1)throw out the mealworms and the dry puppy/HPW milk based bedding and start over. Use a different type mealworm bedding with new worms. 2) Feed another diet completely.

With all the money you have probably spent in vet bills... I think it would be cheaper to redo the worms and diet.

diet is the Key to raising Healthy Sugar Gliders.

Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: Judie] #829335
08/28/09 11:50 PM
08/28/09 11:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,789
St. Johns, Florida
Nicole, you need to contact everyone you sold that bedding to and let them have a heads up on what is going on. It MAY be possible that is the reason for Reeny to have some of the same things going on as you, as far as breeding goes.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: Srlb] #829339
08/29/09 12:01 AM
08/29/09 12:01 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline OP
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
I've only sold bedding to 2 people. Reeny's one and I've already contacted the other person and am waiting for a response back from them. I'll shoot Reeny a PM to tell her to check for the grain mites as well, just in case she doesn't come back to check this thread.

Judie, thank you for the heads up. I'm going to sit down tomorrow and re-write my mealie-farming tutorial. I'm also going to contact bulkfoods.com and see if they've had any problems with grain mites in their grain products. We live out in the country, so, odds are, there are the grain mites everywhere already. :\


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: Guerita135] #829344
08/29/09 12:10 AM
08/29/09 12:10 AM

B
BabyLoveGliders
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BabyLoveGliders
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Quote:
Diet is the Key to raising Healthy Sugar Gliders.


clap

Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: ] #829346
08/29/09 12:16 AM
08/29/09 12:16 AM

7
7glider7
Unregistered
7glider7
Unregistered
7



I would also comb the literature to see what medical care was needed for animals after grain mite exposure.

For instance, the study you cite says they show reduced weight and diarrhea...was this just a short term effect after ingesting mites? Or a long term effect that needed additional medication to bring the animals' offspring back up to a healthy birth weight and stop the intestinal problems? Even if you only have a few mites left, your gliders may need additional treatment after consuming them. You might end up having to do some super sleuthing and find out what protocols were followed in the livestock you read about in the article...perhaps the treatments could be adapted to gliders.

Wishing you the best of luck thumb

Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: ] #829351
08/29/09 12:27 AM
08/29/09 12:27 AM

B
BabyLoveGliders
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BabyLoveGliders
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Nicole, I would take Jen's advise.. I'm also wondering if that is what it is... can the vet confirm it somehow?

Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: ] #829355
08/29/09 12:36 AM
08/29/09 12:36 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis
USMom  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
Originally Posted By: lovely1inred

I'm really curious if anyone has ever put plain yogurt in a glider's pouch before to help restore the yeast/bacteria balance. I know it sounds weird but it works on us.


I'm not sure how this works with other people, but I've always been told to eat the yogurt.

I don't think that method would work with gliders either. Putting it in a gliders pouch is only going to make her want to clean it.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: USMom] #829359
08/29/09 12:48 AM
08/29/09 12:48 AM

B
BelladonnasMom
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BelladonnasMom
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B



Originally Posted By: USMom
Originally Posted By: lovely1inred

I'm really curious if anyone has ever put plain yogurt in a glider's pouch before to help restore the yeast/bacteria balance. I know it sounds weird but it works on us.


I'm not sure how this works with other people, but I've always been told to eat the yogurt.

I don't think that method would work with gliders either. Putting it in a gliders pouch is only going to make her want to clean it.


As a nurse I can tell you that adding sugar to the existing yeast infection will only FEED the yeast and make it WORSE! Much much worse!!!

Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: ] #829374
08/29/09 01:25 AM
08/29/09 01:25 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline OP
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Kris, in some of the articles I read it said that the mites would show up in a dog's feces. I'm not sure if it'd show up in a glider's feces though.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: Guerita135] #829379
08/29/09 02:19 AM
08/29/09 02:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis
Judie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Nicole... just dump out the worm farm including the worms and start over.

I know I would not want to eat my cereal with those grain bugs floating in my dish. Let's face it.... bugs carry and excreat in thier spit, urine and pooh... all kinds of germs just like flies, mice and rats do.

I feel that cleaning up the diet alone should at least rule out the possibility of it being a problem.

Not doing anything to rule out possibilities... you will never find the problem as to what is wrong with your babies. thumb

Yeast Infection can be treated with a Anti Fungial Med... ointment and also an oral suspension. If the vet does not have it... have her call an Exotic vet and then go pick it up.

Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: Judie] #829387
08/29/09 02:40 AM
08/29/09 02:40 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline OP
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline OP
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Yeah, I know. I'm going to make hubby throw out my farm though cause I don't think I'll have the will-power to dump 2 years of work down the drain. *sniffles*

How DO you discard of hundreds of thousands of tiny mealies and thousands of beetles?...

Hmmm...I wonder if there are any uses for or any types of creatures that can eat mealies that wouldn't be effected by the mites?...perhaps they can be fed to fish or something? If so, then maybe someone on CL will want them to feed to some fishies in their ponds or what-not? I just hate to waste all those mealies. :\

Judie, Leda's already on anti-fungal meds(Itraconazole). I've also got a Saline/Chloehexidine Solution that I have to flush her pouch out with twice a week(more often, if needed). That's on top of the Baytril and Clavamox she's getting.

She's not very happy with me right now. To say the least, lol.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: There's something seriously wrong with my glid [Re: Guerita135] #829411
08/29/09 06:34 AM
08/29/09 06:34 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarglidersuz  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
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