Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
HeatherK329, Philbert12321
Member Spotlight
KarenE
KarenE
LittleRock, AR USA
Posts: 43,318
Joined: March 2000
Show All Member Profiles 
Last 10 Posts
Gliders of the Round Table 10
by Ladymagyver. 03/28/24 09:57 PM
Logging in Problem
by Feather. 03/26/24 06:07 PM
Cloaca swollen?
by Hutch. 03/16/24 11:51 PM
Wheels, Toys, Toy supplies, pouches and more.
by Ladymagyver. 03/07/24 11:16 PM
Gliders of the Round Table 9
by Hutch. 03/07/24 10:52 PM
Stewie:" It's MY Mouse!"
by Hutch. 03/04/24 12:12 AM
2024 Sugar Glider Calendar and Cafe Press Store
by theresaw. 02/29/24 08:55 PM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: ] #799036
06/25/09 10:51 PM
06/25/09 10:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
So let's re-cap the major concerns about the registry:

1. The fees, and specifically how they could prevent individuals from using the Registry.


2. Non-profit status and how the Registry would raise less questions about any profit it may make if it is non-profit.


As for the first concern, I hope that we have made it clear that we want to work with you on this subject. Is a Registry free to start-up and operate? No. Can a Registry work with the community to create reasonable fees? Yes.


As for the non profit status, I (Meghan) have been a champion of this idea all along. The more that the steering committee of the Registry considers it, the better of an idea we all find it to be as well. I believe this is something that we will seriously consider. If you are telling us that being a non-profit would take away all of your concerns about where any excess money might go to, then it is something we will look into.

Lastly, and as a side note, please do not take any response of ours as trying to avoid a question. We felt as if we had adequately answered the questions that were coming up in our previous posts. We would love to tell you whether or not the Registry is for-profit or non-profit, but seeing as the Registry has not yet been established, not even WE know at this point.

I suppose it boils down to this, we are NOT out here to take your money and provide you with a shoddy service. You can tell in the amount of effort we are putting into this that it is not our goal. What we are offering is a service that has been needed for quite some time now, we are also willing to work with the community on this effort to gain much-needed support and although we are willing to come OUT OF OUR OWN POCKETS to make this happen, we also expect to get compensated for our efforts. This is why I personally believe having non-profit status would be beneficial to us all. We would receive "reasonable compensation" as determined by the IRS and you would be able to rest your minds at ease as to where the excess profit is going.


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: oakley] #799343
06/26/09 07:21 PM
06/26/09 07:21 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
okay from what I have heard and am reading let me see if I can do this without causing any more confusion..

from what I understand, the aunt is "building this database, thus going to be able to make it customizable to the NEEDS of the community as to what they feel is needed and wanted and want it handled.

which by the way is very different than the free databases (not knocking them just pointing out a difference) the free databases are limited as to what can be done with them and how information is handled as a whole, simply because they are preset already.

after seeing that the databases ALL of them, have serious errors regarding linages, and the difficulty of have to straighten them all out. (you didn't enter it, you can't correct it) still will leave serious errors throughout many of the lines.

I know that some breeders are working with cleaning up their lines in the various databases, but i can bet you, it is more difficult than starting over with fresh work.

The people with the current databases are very proud of their databases, as they have a right to be, but that doesn't mean if they had it to do over again, and could customize it better, there isn't things they wouldn't change.

one of the things that some of these breeders have been trying for is good clean accurate records of linages. now.. this is where the association would come in.. please correct me if I am wrong..

The idea of the association is to set those standards, to figure out what is needed, and how things should be handled in the various situations.

I myself can think of a couple of people that would be very beneficial to this endevour. They could take what they would like to see explain the best way it could be handled, and set the standards, for the base itself.. but also because the database is being built from scratch, it can also be modified to fix/add or modify anything that may come up in the future that may need to be addressed.

from what I am reading I see many people here expecting perfection and finished product, while the plan is still in the idea, looking for people who would be interested in adding their input for a better tomorrow.

we can look at what we have, and say well i guess it is okay and we can make it work, not what all we want and need, but thats okay we don't need to try to make things better.. or....

we can sit on the fence and be, well they have a good idea i guess, we would like to see this work, well lets wait to see what comes out of it, without putting any effort in to help... or...

we can ask VALID questions/ build valid scenarios/ and come up with ideas and suggestions that could make this a reality.

each person needs to decide what catagory they fall into , not only on this idea/project but each and everyone of them..

you have those that talk about changes that need to be done

you have those that even talk about how they would change things and offer suggestions for those changes

you have those that try to make those change

you have those that complain about the changes without offering anything valid to help.

then you have those that sit back, hear and see things and choose not to get activley involved.

there is not one group of people listed that is really wrong or right. they just have different ways about themselves. you can pretty much read each post and see where each person MAY fall into the list,

but wouldn't it be great for there to be valid ideas and suggestions that could make this a reality?

examples..

All the talk about the fees (which hasn't even been set yet) could be 1.00 per glider could be 5 could be 10.. who knows it isn't set yet, why not? because as was stated the associations would make those decisions.who is the association?? the community? who is the community? ANYONE wanting to be a part of the association. Who would want to be part of that??

so instead of the talk about the fees where the money is going etc... (like asking how much you will spend to the penny on vacation 2 years from now and not even knowing where you are going yet) and forcing issues without even knowing what all charges are incurred yet.. Sadly this is what most of the concerns have been in this thread.

what I am reading is from some that want all the t crossed and the I's dotted, while they are still trying to set a basic foundation.some are not concerned with what is needed to build this, but what will things be like 2 years from now.

let me tell you without the group of people that want to be a part of making those changes, NOTHING is going to come of this, not 2 years from now, not a year from now. 10 years further down the road someone else may try it, but by then the linages will be so messed up.. nothing will have a foundation.

isn't better , still a good thing? i don't know, what I do know is that it is very hard for any project or organization to get off the ground, because the community as a whole doesn't actively support them, regardless if they are 501c3 or not.

personally I would love to see an easy way for the breeders to keep their linages straight, and be notified of anyone entering into their lines. I would love to see the breeders help the registry with validating that the lines that are being added is valid and correct. and maybe someday we will have what the akc now has and maybe better..

but even the akc started somewhere, they too had a learning curve, they too had a rough start, but they persisted and people took an interested and helped make it what it has become.

I have a list of people I think would be invaluable in helping to set this up properly, but the question is... will they?

Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: Bourbon] #799358
06/26/09 08:03 PM
06/26/09 08:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,979
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
Administrator
Feather  Offline
Administrator

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,979
Wisconsin
Quote:
We feel that the registration fee for ALL pet gliders (male or female, neutered or un-neutered) should be lower than the registration fee for a glider registered by a breeder with the intent to breed. Keep in mind that ALL fees will be set reasonably.


If a breeder chooses to neuter a joey before they sell it or register it for that matter they be able to pay the lower registration fee. The NSGR and NSGRA cannot determine who a breeder is. In my book a breeder is any person who puts glider A with glider B to bond and have joeys, if that person only has one set of joeys then neutered the male they are still the breeder of that set of joeys and they should pay the breeder fee. The AQHA, APHA AHRA and the AKC do not charge less for people who only have one foal a year, one foal ever, 20 foals a year, one litter out of their favorite female dog, or 2-3 litters or more a year out of their show stock (of in the case of the mill breeders AKC still registers their litters if the male and female are AKC registered). They all pay the set rate to register a foal or litter of pups.

Quote:
Can this system be used to track health issues, cause of death, diet, etc? It would be great in the future to be able to run reports on things like any health issues coming about as a result of leu to leu pairings or kidney problems or whatever. It would be great to be able to look at lineage and determine that there's a common health issue with a line of gliders, so the breeders can be aware of it.


Yes, this could have the potential to track health issues. In the future genetic testing could even be a possibilty therefore giving us the ability to verify that glider C is really the offspring of glider A and B or is it the offspring of glider A and D. Most of the horse registries in the United State utilize dna testing in their registration process. When they put it in force first it was just the sires, then it was the [censored] also. The breeders were given a very reduced rate as an incentive to dna test their mares, and if the mare was retired you didn't have to test her. Basically they stated that all foals after xx-xx-xxxx had to have their dam's dna typed before they could be registered.

Quote:
so would you still want to register GLIDERS without pedigrees
This is a good question, my answer to this would be down the line when the NSGRA and NSGR has the ability to track genetic disorders or to track what a glider died of. registering pet gliders and rescues will add to the information collected. What they could ask for of a registered pet gliders is that when the glider crosses the rainbow bridge that the owner notifies the registry (horse registries like it when you let them know the horse has died)but the owner could also submit a copy of the necropsy if a necropsy is done. THIS GOES VERY FAR FOR COLLECTING VALUABLE INFORMATION.


I feel that this is a step in the right direction and that the NSGRA needs members so that a president, vice president, secretary, treasurer, and several board of directors can be voted into office. These officers need to be in place to apply for 501c3 status. So lets get things started and get this association going forward, there are going to be a lot of questions that need to be addressed but they need to be addressed by a board of directors and officers. It also needs to be run like any other registry association it has to create bylaws which are voted on by the entire membership.

I feel that if this is going to work it needs to be run like the AQHA, APHA, AHRA and the AKC.


Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Mister Peanut & Big Mack
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Cho, Toothless, Maverick & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Light Fury, Madison & T'Pring :rtmo:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker, Khayman and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:

Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: ] #799420
06/26/09 10:21 PM
06/26/09 10:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict
LabNGliderMom  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
Originally Posted By: Babydevilsangel
I feel like this whole thing is shot in the dark. It seems really unorganized with no product available and set up/ready for people to invest in. How are we supposed to invest in something that isn't tangible? We need a demo, and we need more than, ..."that hasn't been determined as of yet" or... "the community will get to decide that." Right now, it's like you're trying to sell just an idea.

Is it a good idea? Yes, of course. Are the other 2 already established and free databases a good idea? Absolutely.

It's been said that this would alleviate the breeders responsibility to provide lineage and background information on their sugar glider joeys. There is just no way that that is ever going to happen... unless people suddenly just don't care about lineages and inbreeding and family history. Responsible sugar glider owners/seekers are going to depend on the breeders for that type of information BEFORE they purchase a joey from them.

It's also been said that when a joey is sold to a new owner that they'd have to register their joey with this "organization" in order to get lineages and family history? Isn't that a little backwards? People need to be able to have that information provided to them beforehand so they know if the new sugar is compatible with that which they already have.

I don't know... seems like this is a LOT of doubled efforts. breeders will have to keep up with their own databases... there's no getting away from that, plus if they want to, they can also pay to provide that information to this "organization".

And then people looking for a specific sugar glider? Well, if I were looking for a joey, I'd go straight to the source for my information.

One other point that has been brought up that this registry would provide is developing a standard for specific breed types and colors in sugar gliders. Um... isn't that already taken care of?? We all (the community) figured out and came to conclusion on one of the color breeds just a few weeks ago. And we did right here... and free of charge.

With those things said, I am not intending to be combative. I'm only bringing up questions that I have in my own mind about this, figuring that others may see it the same way.


Right now they are not ASKING for the money they are ASKING if their IDEA is a good one so that IF the community LIKES their idea, THEN they can apply for non-profit status or whatever... there is NO point in STARTING the business if the COMMUNITY would not want any part of it. What they are trying to do is feel us out as to whether the majority of the community WOULD AT SOME POINT be willing tobe charter members to help them get started AFTER they are ready to beging the business.

as an AKC breeder- I am responsible for TELLING and SHOWING my lab parents' pedigrees to potential puppy purchasers- and I also provide purchasers with a litter certificate that explains their puppy's heritage- but when the new owner registers the puppy to THEMSELVES as new owner, THEY get a FRAMABLE certificate of pedigree with their puppy's chosen name on it- so no it is not backwards- you get to know from the breeder before hand but you get it recorded in the database as belonging to you when you register.

of course breeders still keep their own records- I do that myself- but I can also count ont he AKC to keep a broad spectrum record that I can use for research... I count on them to provide the paperwork and registration numbers and breed standards for me.... etc. and that is what this is about- HELPING gliders like the AKC helps canines... look into the AKC as an organization and THAT is what these people want to do for sugar gliders.

lastly, you say you'd go straight to the source for info if you wanted a specific type of joey- WELL... through the AKC I can find out which breeders offer puppies meeting my criteria... if you could do that with Gliders, too- it would be great- because I promise you that every gldier breeder is NOT registered on or even known by someone registered on, GC- so you are LIMITED in searching by the circle in which you are a member here- a broad database across the country would give you access to people you'd never have met through GC and open up the breed to more lines


Julie
Hubby: George
Kids: Ayla & Michael
Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
The Zoo: Midnight, Severe & Nala - Claude, Pixie, Tippy & Chili - Scout & Soluna, Theo & Deegie

http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com


Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: LabNGliderMom] #799526
06/27/09 06:10 AM
06/27/09 06:10 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
Wow, THANK YOU BOURBON for such an honest post.

Also, thank you Feather and LabNGliderMom, this is the input we need to become a reality.

We will be reading these posts more thoroughly and answering later today!


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: oakley] #799576
06/27/09 12:23 PM
06/27/09 12:23 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
I know that nationally you would like to cover all gliders, both with known base linages as well as those without linages, and using the database as way to create linages for those with none. but am I to understand that the ones with no linages will be in a separate catagory/ area etc as to not confuse them? or will they be mixed up? let me see , i confused myself with that one...

since the breeders have gone to such great extents to preserve the linages of the colors where they can take it back to the first known here in the states.. wouldn't it be better that the breeders that are taking their time to have a database that is more prestigious than just a registry that is going to be used for the other gliders..

Am I to understand the importance of registering not only the rescues, but the other gliders is to try to define a line for medical reasons, as well as to work on making the existing lines more sound?


I am looking at trying to avoid the problems that AKC had when originally they registered all dogs and ran into the problem of people creating mills of registered/pedigreed dogs..

is there a difference between akc registered and a pedigreed dog? (asking cause i really don't know)

what will make this database different than the others that are out there? are the histories of the major registries being looked at so we can reduce a lot of the learning curve they already went through??

Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: Bourbon] #799871
06/28/09 11:46 AM
06/28/09 11:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
Thank you for keeping this post moving forward.

Quote:

is there a difference between akc registered and a pedigreed dog? (asking cause i really don't know)

what will make this database different than the others that are out there? are the histories of the major registries being looked at so we can reduce a lot of the learning curve they already went through??


These are the types of questions we need to start asking ourselves. The steering committee needs the community's involvement to make the Registry as successful as possible smile


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: oakley] #799879
06/28/09 12:13 PM
06/28/09 12:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
is there a difference between akc registered and a pedigreed dog? (asking cause i really don't know)


Yes and no. A dog can be pedigreed through a different kennel club and not be part of AKC at all. There is also the UKC (United Kennel Club) that has different rules and breeding standards. For example, they allow the introduction of "outside" dna. The requirements are that the "outside" dna donor is of similiar size, looks and tempermant. The litter of puppies is then "registered" but not pedigreed. Those pups are then bred back to the original breed and their pups registered. Then on the third generation (or fourth, not really sure) being bred back in, they are then not only registered but also "pedigreed" as purebred again even though the pups would have 1/16th "outside" dna.

This is something that the AKC does not allow (which is a shame as it really limits the gene pool).

It would be like taking and breeding wfb's to get a 5th gen joey and then breeding back to a grey. The offspring (if wf) would be a 1st gen wf but will now have "outside" dna added into the blood line. This makes for healthier bloodlines and decreases the chances for bottlenecking the gene pool.

So, yes, I think there SHOULD be a difference between "pedigreed" and "registered". Pedigree should reflect known family trees back say 3 generations.

The UKC also has what they call "Purple Ribbon Pedigree". That is where the family tree is known purebreds back atleast 7 generations.

So perhaps those gliders with less than three generations known, should be "registered" and those with 3-7 generations be "pedigreed" and those with more than 7 generations known, be "Purple Ribbon Pedigree" (or Gold Certificate Pedigree or whatever is decided on)

Does that make sense?


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: Dancing] #799952
06/28/09 02:44 PM
06/28/09 02:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
Thanks for making that clear Teresa... that is one of the things that we have had trouble discerning.

In your opinion would PEDIGREED would apply to a specific color (Leu, Mosaic...)??


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: Dancing] #799969
06/28/09 03:56 PM
06/28/09 03:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict
LabNGliderMom  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
There is also the CKC for Canada... a dog with a registration certificate differs from a dog without one no matter WHERE thay are because their HERITAGE is provable and because the kennel club of choice decides breed standards, holds championships, etc... PEDIGREED simply means "lineage is known" so ALL registered dogs, regardless of club affiliation, are "pedigreed" dogs... a dog from UNKNOWN heritage- the Heinz 57 variety for example, is NOT pedigreed...

What I think we need is TWO registries, to be honest-

PUREBRED REGISTRY

(gliders with lineages going back at least to the great grandparents on both sides)

INITIALLY a breeder could register ALL gliders they use as breeding stock for ONE FLAT FEE (dependent upon the number of breeding gliders they own) and for free, the breeders could, (as an added bonus for registering their purebreds), register their pets, retired breeding stock, etc.

Non-breeders (owners of purebreds kept solely as pets) would pay a per-glider registration fee to register their gliders

Registration numbers would look like this for example: P-1234567890

SECONDARY REGISTRY

(gliders with no lineages, rescues without paperwork, mill bred gliders, unknown heritage, lineages only going back to the grandparents on one or both sides, or lineages going back to the great grandparents on only one side)

Rescue homes always register gliders for free, regardless

Pet only glider owners whose gliders meet the criteria above can register for a fee LOWER than that of the purebred owners

Registration numbers would look like this for example: S-0987654321

Secondary registry offers something unique: once a new joey has lineage going back to the great grandparents on both sides, regardless if the lineage is full of secondary registrations, the new joey can be registered as a purebred for a very small fee and the new registration number would be the ORIGINAL number, with a P replacing the S, and the S moved to the end, like this: P-0987654321-S

Once these things are in place and established and it has become the “norm” for gliders to be sold “with registration papers” (which may take several years, to be honest), then it will work much as the AKC does- you see a glider for sale ad, and since the glider registry is now so well-known, you know to ask: is the glider registered? Also, breeders would start advertising that their gliders are registered, which would increase knowledge of the program.

Just like the AKC, there could be glider shows (at gatherings or otherwise) judged by registry officials to determine the best of the best within the breed, resulting titles with abbreviations to add to the registration name… unique names to make registry searched easier… an online database, enabling anyone to search for the EXACT glider criteria they are looking for in finding a mate for their glider to produce quality joeys… and a very small fee involved for transferring a registered glider between owners. All in all, it just seems like something that has been needed in the glider community for a long time.

Is it a fix-it patch for mill breeding? No. Is it going to stop poor breeding, line breeding, in breeding, rescues that need homes, class B brokers like (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets, or unscrupulous people? Of course not- the ACK hasn’t stopped it for dogs… but they made a HUGE dent, and there IS a market for registered dogs- it just APPEALS to some people to know the registry is there… home many more gliders might find good homes if the new owners knew there was a registry? How many fewer gliders might get purchased at trade shows, flea markets, festivals, and expos if word got out that “registered” gliders were available instead? And, I hate to say it, but be honest- how many breeders would be less upset that someone who SEEMED okay turned out NOT to be able to take care of a joey that the breeder sold to them if people knew they had to register their gliders after purchase?

As an AKC affiliated Labdraor Retriever breeder, I have to say- it does not weed out ALL the unfavorable… but having REGISTERED dogs seems to “scare away” the people who don’t have the money to take care of the dog properly… how many gliders could benefit from THAT?
I just think the registry is a good idea, and anything I can do to help out… I will.

Last edited by LabNGliderMom; 06/28/09 03:57 PM.

Julie
Hubby: George
Kids: Ayla & Michael
Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
The Zoo: Midnight, Severe & Nala - Claude, Pixie, Tippy & Chili - Scout & Soluna, Theo & Deegie

http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com


Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: LabNGliderMom] #800059
06/28/09 08:51 PM
06/28/09 08:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
In your opinion would PEDIGREED would apply to a specific color (Leu, Mosaic...)??


NO.

Because you will also have the hets and just because they don't express the color should not mean they can't hold a "pedigree".

Besides, I LOVE my greys and they should be able to hold a "pedigree" as well.

I think for the gliders and what is looked at the most with breeding gliders, the focus needs to be on the lineages.

I thing that having
  • Registered (those without known lineage)
  • Bronze Pedigree (for those with 1-3 generations known lineage)
  • Silver Pedigree (those who's lineage is traceable back 4-7 generations)
  • Gold Pedigree (for 8+ gens, verified on BOTH sides of the family tree, don't expect at this point there will be a lot of those)


We need to remember that the dog kennel clubs all have to keep track of numerous different "breeds" of dogs and many different colors within those breeds. There is only ONE "breed" of sugar glider, just different colors.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: Dancing] #800453
06/29/09 04:24 PM
06/29/09 04:24 PM

R
Ricci
Unregistered
Ricci
Unregistered
R



Hi All - I am Oakley's Aunt - "Ricci" and I signed up here in order to address only those questions that I can answer. I would like to address Bourbon's post which is like 6 or 7 posts up from this one.

I feel in answering this one question - much of the rest will become clear:

Quote:
what will make this database different than the others that are out there?


The database will hold all the data. Data can be recalled and presented in almost any division you can dream of. So there's no need to have separate databases - but we can certainly present data in whatever criteria we desire.

For example. One can query the database to show all het-lue (forgive my ignorance on these terms but I hope you get the point) or list all gliders from a particular breeder or all offspring of a particular pair - things like that. So if we chose to enter health data INTO the database - we can certainly gather data and be able to generate lists that would show - all - I don't know what kind of things gliders are susceptible to but - let's say some are born with 6 toes on the front feet - we can track that.


another example: I would like for anyone to be able to access some data via the website - such as - if someone is interested in buying a glider they can come to the website and learn who the breeders are closest to them. They will be able to research lineages - perhaps (one day) they want a pedigreed glider - they will be able to search for those, things of that nature.

I would like for them to also be able to find other data such as - which veterinarians in their area would be able to care for the glider, find manufacturers of special glider foods, or toys or cages, etc.

"Affiliate" members would be listed in these searchable areas of the website and they could also offer printable coupons or offer coupon codes for online orders of their products to members - but I digress.

Back to the database. I have developed a REGISTRATION NUMBER that will be invaluable to this effort.

The number will 'tell it all' - it will be a unique number that will be assigned to each registered glider that will remain a permanent part of their documentation. (I hope to have info on the website that will explain this more - but we only have so much time! It will come - please be patient)

We have refined our use of terms over the course of the few days that the community has been giving us input. So I want to make clear this particular distinction.

"Memberships" in the case of an affiliate was addressed above - it would be more like an advertising benefit to them. They 'join the NSGR' and have the right to display their membership certificate, use the insignia on their product (member of the NSGR) and be listed in the searchable database online.

"Membership" in the case of an individual would award owners or interested parties access to members only portions of the website.

our use of the term 'memberships' regarding the case of both Breeders and Rescuers the term “Registration Number” and “Account Number” are interchangeable - their number is actually an “Account Number” which will become part of the Registration Number of the gliders they register

The number will also contain other data that will help categorize the gliders. For example - part of the number is a code that will reflect neutered or unneutered males - breeding or pet females - rescued male or female - joey male or female and even Dearly Departed.

The number is linked to the glider's name and owner - their breeding/rescue/pet status.

For lineages it will be linked to the offspring - in short - the Registration/Account number is the KEYSTONE to this database.

How is it different? the biggest difference is the checks and balances system that comes from the NSGR Association.

The Registry records the data. (it does not question it but due to the REGISTRATION/ACCOUNT NUMBER certain things will not be allow - such as a 'pet' being listed as a sire/dam of a glider [though exceptions can be allowed])

It issues documentation - 'papers' that reflect the glider's name, owner's name, lineage, and eventually pedigree.

The Association sets the standards. If data in the Registry is questioned - (There will be ways to cheat the system) - example: in future a pedigreed breeding glider dies and the unsavory breeder simply claims that another glider is that one - when this happens - a complaint can be made to the NSGR Association - where - depending upon how the organization decides to handle things like this - and depending on the extent of the authority the community decides to place on this entity - it will take the action necessary to investigate and remedy the situation.

The Association should at the very least be given the authority to instruct the Registry to correct data that has been verified (by the Association) to be in error.

In future - all breeders may elect to have dna data as part of their glider's records. Then if a complaint of the nature above occurs the NSGRA could require a test be done to prove the documentation belongs to the glider.

in a nutshell - the NSGR is going to be structured and function just like the AKC and the NSGRA can be thought of as being the same as the individual breed clubs like the golden retriever's club - it sets and enforces the standards for that breed. The two work hand in hand - but are separate entities. I think another DIFFERENCE this Registry has is that it is a non-biased entity.

I am not implying anything other than what I am stating outright - The REGISTRY will not depend on personal knowledge or opinion for the data that goes INTO the database. That comes from the people submitting the data. IF that data is questioned/questionable - the NSGRA fields the complaints and takes care of following through and insuring the correct data either remains or is entered.

I am not a breeder of any type of creature - but to my clearly limited brain - this lends credibility to the data. The very SYSTEM - the method - the function is all different from what is already out there. But I admit - I am ignorant about the specifics. I base this impression on what I have found in my research. I admit there may be plenty out there that is similar and I just haven't found it.

Put another way - imagine the difference between documentation that comes from the AKC in comparison to documentation that begins and ends with the breeder. BOTH can be 100% accurate - but one has more value. IMHO anyway.

If this information does not answer all of your questions - please post them again.

I hope this sheds some light on the two arms of this checks and balances system: the NSGR and the NSGRA.

Yours,
Ricci



Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: ] #800457
06/29/09 04:42 PM
06/29/09 04:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
Thank you Aunt Ricci for posting these specifics. I hope this makes what we are trying to do clear.


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: oakley] #800547
06/29/09 08:02 PM
06/29/09 08:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 712
Red Oak Texas
anjill_tree Offline
Glider Guardian
anjill_tree  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 712
Red Oak Texas
(2 cents), when I first read this, I posted "I like the free database".

I am one to open mouth first then think about it. chew it. chew it some more.
I want change, you want change, we all want change!
Change is inevitable, if , you want a better outcome in anything you do.

As far as the web, even the state database that I work with has bugs, we work throuh it, change it , and the actual policies and rules take effect after bugs are mostly dealt with. Set a deadline for the rules to really take affect, and even that may need to change. Let people use it , change it,see what works, take out what does not work.

I have changed my mind, and I will use your new registry, because I do want change!!! GO FOR IT!!! I think once everyone sees it, they will too. LETS ROCK THE SUGGIE WORLD AND MAKE CHANGE NOW!!!!!!


Cathy Hart

Support Aspergers and Autism Research, help put the pieces together.
www.hartlandsugargliders.com
cathyhart2texas@yahoo.com
469-964-4152
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: anjill_tree] #800555
06/29/09 08:20 PM
06/29/09 08:20 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,501
Parsons, Kansas
dranger1108 Offline
Glider Addict
dranger1108  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,501
Parsons, Kansas
does anyone have a link to the free database? I can't seem to find it.
thanks,



:grey: Michelle's Sugar Glider Babies & Toys :wfb:
USDA licensed breeder
http://www.freewebs.com/michellesugarbabytoys/index.htm
Neat glider themed products!
:glider: http://www.zazzle.com/dranger1108/products :glider:
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: dranger1108] #800568
06/29/09 08:58 PM
06/29/09 08:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: Srlb] #800576
06/29/09 09:25 PM
06/29/09 09:25 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,501
Parsons, Kansas
dranger1108 Offline
Glider Addict
dranger1108  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,501
Parsons, Kansas
thanks so much!!



:grey: Michelle's Sugar Glider Babies & Toys :wfb:
USDA licensed breeder
http://www.freewebs.com/michellesugarbabytoys/index.htm
Neat glider themed products!
:glider: http://www.zazzle.com/dranger1108/products :glider:
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: dranger1108] #800716
06/30/09 08:05 AM
06/30/09 08:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
Teresa, I believe that your thought about having different levels of pedigrees is a great idea. Many gliders do not have a lineage that goes back 5 or more generations, especially the standard greys. This would allow the registry to pedigree any glider that had any known lineage at all.


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: oakley] #800751
06/30/09 10:42 AM
06/30/09 10:42 AM

N
NGS
Unregistered
NGS
Unregistered
N



I do agree that this is a great idea and if done correctly, this would stop all the incorrect data that is floating around out there still. smile thumb

Last edited by NGS; 06/30/09 10:43 AM.
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: Bourbon] #800771
06/30/09 11:54 AM
06/30/09 11:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,013
Florida
Jaxsuggies Offline
Glider Guardian
Jaxsuggies  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,013
Florida
Originally Posted By: Bourbon
okay from what I have heard and am reading let me see if I can do this without causing any more confusion..

from what I understand, the aunt is "building this database, thus going to be able to make it customizable to the NEEDS of the community as to what they feel is needed and wanted and want it handled.

which by the way is very different than the free databases (not knocking them just pointing out a difference) the free databases are limited as to what can be done with them and how information is handled as a whole, simply because they are preset already.

after seeing that the databases ALL of them, have serious errors regarding linages, and the difficulty of have to straighten them all out. (you didn't enter it, you can't correct it) still will leave serious errors throughout many of the lines.

I know that some breeders are working with cleaning up their lines in the various databases, but i can bet you, it is more difficult than starting over with fresh work.

The people with the current databases are very proud of their databases, as they have a right to be, but that doesn't mean if they had it to do over again, and could customize it better, there isn't things they wouldn't change.

one of the things that some of these breeders have been trying for is good clean accurate records of linages. now.. this is where the association would come in.. please correct me if I am wrong..

The idea of the association is to set those standards, to figure out what is needed, and how things should be handled in the various situations.

I myself can think of a couple of people that would be very beneficial to this endevour. They could take what they would like to see explain the best way it could be handled, and set the standards, for the base itself.. but also because the database is being built from scratch, it can also be modified to fix/add or modify anything that may come up in the future that may need to be addressed.

from what I am reading I see many people here expecting perfection and finished product, while the plan is still in the idea, looking for people who would be interested in adding their input for a better tomorrow.

we can look at what we have, and say well i guess it is okay and we can make it work, not what all we want and need, but thats okay we don't need to try to make things better.. or....

we can sit on the fence and be, well they have a good idea i guess, we would like to see this work, well lets wait to see what comes out of it, without putting any effort in to help... or...

we can ask VALID questions/ build valid scenarios/ and come up with ideas and suggestions that could make this a reality.

each person needs to decide what catagory they fall into , not only on this idea/project but each and everyone of them..

you have those that talk about changes that need to be done

you have those that even talk about how they would change things and offer suggestions for those changes

you have those that try to make those change

you have those that complain about the changes without offering anything valid to help.

then you have those that sit back, hear and see things and choose not to get activley involved.

there is not one group of people listed that is really wrong or right. they just have different ways about themselves. you can pretty much read each post and see where each person MAY fall into the list,

but wouldn't it be great for there to be valid ideas and suggestions that could make this a reality?

examples..

All the talk about the fees (which hasn't even been set yet) could be 1.00 per glider could be 5 could be 10.. who knows it isn't set yet, why not? because as was stated the associations would make those decisions.who is the association?? the community? who is the community? ANYONE wanting to be a part of the association. Who would want to be part of that??

so instead of the talk about the fees where the money is going etc... (like asking how much you will spend to the penny on vacation 2 years from now and not even knowing where you are going yet) and forcing issues without even knowing what all charges are incurred yet.. Sadly this is what most of the concerns have been in this thread.

what I am reading is from some that want all the t crossed and the I's dotted, while they are still trying to set a basic foundation.some are not concerned with what is needed to build this, but what will things be like 2 years from now.

let me tell you without the group of people that want to be a part of making those changes, NOTHING is going to come of this, not 2 years from now, not a year from now. 10 years further down the road someone else may try it, but by then the linages will be so messed up.. nothing will have a foundation.

isn't better , still a good thing? i don't know, what I do know is that it is very hard for any project or organization to get off the ground, because the community as a whole doesn't actively support them, regardless if they are 501c3 or not.

personally I would love to see an easy way for the breeders to keep their linages straight, and be notified of anyone entering into their lines. I would love to see the breeders help the registry with validating that the lines that are being added is valid and correct. and maybe someday we will have what the akc now has and maybe better..

but even the akc started somewhere, they too had a learning curve, they too had a rough start, but they persisted and people took an interested and helped make it what it has become.

I have a list of people I think would be invaluable in helping to set this up properly, but the question is... will they?


Bourbon - excellent post with excellent points and reflects my feelings to the T. We need this registry. I will support this innitiative 100% and I am willing to help with anything necessary!!!

Paula


Paula Donofrio-Williams
USDA and Florida Wildlife Licensed
www.firstcoastsuggies.com
904-707-8278
STOP MILL BREEDERS!
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: ] #800773
06/30/09 11:59 AM
06/30/09 11:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave
TheGliderPlayroom  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
Originally Posted By: Ricci
For example. One can query the database to show all het-lue (forgive my ignorance on these terms but I hope you get the point) or list all gliders from a particular breeder


I understand that you think this is a good idea, but it almost destroyed the PSG database years ago. If Jennifer hadn't been able to rewrite the program to disallow searching by color and/or breeder, there would have been no other choice but to take it down completely.

It could have been a wonderful tool, but it was simply being abused; breeders were being stalked and harassed, questioned constantly, emailed repeatedly demanding they sell (adult) gliders that weren't public until they were listed in the database. I personally would not want to register my gliders and breeding pairs into a fully searchable database for those reasons. I've seen it happen, I know it would happen again, and I would rather not participate than to take the chance of it happening again.


Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: TheGliderPlayroom] #800803
06/30/09 12:36 PM
06/30/09 12:36 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Helen, most of the breeders of colors get calls, emails all the time regarding their colors, their breeding gliders as well as other gliders, and I was confused as to what you meant by this..

Quote:
repeatedly demanding they sell (adult) gliders that weren't public until they were listed in the database.


as I am reading this, I would think that with the database that they have planned ALL of their gliders could be entered into the database, including those that they don't want to breed/ retired breeders, as well as the lines that the breeders are trying to breed out.

This would be a learning curve, that suggestions would come in handy to help work out the kinks, but over time, the more gliders that get placed in , nationally, not just the local online people.. the probability of this happening would reduce, you will always have what I call the glider stalkers out there, they still can contact based on sales ads, websites etc.. wanting to get more gliders.

BUT..... it also would beneficial to those that would want to expand their current lines, make their gene pool wider, be sure they lines are farther apart etc..

Funny, I was reading about the histories of many of the registry databases, and what I seen was a group of breeders some with their own databases all pitching in to help with the national ones, but still holding on to the ones that were out there.

What I have seen and heard so far is that there is a place for EVERYONE to help and be a part of this regardless of your knowledge, whether or not you breed or whether or not you already have a lineage listing of any sort.

Actually you would have a lot to also offer, as you have seen the various problems in have the database, and worked through them. And since all the linages on your database is correct, then you could also offer suggestions as to ensure information is correct when entered.

Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: Bourbon] #800814
06/30/09 12:54 PM
06/30/09 12:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,979
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
Administrator
Feather  Offline
Administrator

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,979
Wisconsin
Another plus of this registry you would be able to get a pedigree on a glider farther back than 5 generations with little or no problems.

With the Arabian Horse Registry data base I have my stallions pedigree back as the first imports and even to the desert on some of them.

It is a big as a book.


Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Mister Peanut & Big Mack
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Cho, Toothless, Maverick & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Light Fury, Madison & T'Pring :rtmo:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker, Khayman and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:

Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: Feather] #801320
07/01/09 04:02 PM
07/01/09 04:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,228
USA
I
IowaMisty Offline
Glider Guardian
IowaMisty  Offline
Glider Guardian
I

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,228
USA
I know I haven't posted much on this, but I just wanted to say I am on board if enough other people are willing to join in. I'm pretty sure I was probably one of the 1st to ask for info on becoming a charter member. This is a GOOD thing people. And it can be what we want it to be.

I do have a small concern regarding having different levels of pedigree. My concern is that it would become a primary factor in determining value of a joey, whereas there are many other things to consider such as temperament, color, etc. For example, I paid a TON for my white mosaic recently and trusted Priscilla when she told me he is from excellent lines that produce beautiful babies and a high % of white mosaics. However, on one side, he is missing lineage beyond one of his grandparents. I could be wrong about this, but I believe that grandparent may have come from a breeder who lost lineages due to a fire or something (something that could be prevented with a good registry like this). And I know that Priscilla has quite a few gliders with some missing lineage due to this. Anyway, I am not totally against having different levels of pedigree, but my concern would be that with that, the perceived value of my glider and his joeys would go down a lot (even though his lineage goes back pretty far on 3 of his grandparents). It's just something to think about.

Meghan, I think it would help if instead of asking for charter members up front and membership fees to be paid up front, you could ask who is interested in getting on board with being a charter member if enough other people come forth. For example, if you need (arbitrary numbers) $500 to get started and you want $25/charter member to help fund it, then ask who would be willing to become a charter member & when you have 20 people interested, THEN get some email communications going & ask for the funds.

I think people are scared to take the 1st step, but it would be easier to get people to make a financial commitment if they can see there are enough people interested.

Also maybe do the same with the 2 committees.....get a list of who would like to be a part of each & go from there.

Misty

Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: IowaMisty] #801330
07/01/09 04:58 PM
07/01/09 04:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
SugaWhit Offline
Glider Guardian
SugaWhit  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
Misty had excellent points, and hit the nail on the head!
I am very interested, but am a little nervous just throwing $25 to something that may not be a realized thing.

I have been a strong supporter of this idea throughout- I have miniature horses, welsh ponies, and warmbloods- I only breed the mini's now, but the data base that I use to track my horses blood lines, plan breedings, and find out where my horses have gone since I have sold them.

All of which I depend on member usage and correct paper work.
I am Really excited about DNA, though I am not sure how we are going to get samples to test from as that could prove difficult!
However, with out DNA, nothing is for sure-
Also, I believe that having pictures of each glider both as a joey and as an adult would be a good idea to have on papers, as it tracks the color change and limits some dishonesty.

(At least for the color gliders, I know it may be hard to discern between the greys- but scars, and different marks can be used!)
Anyways- hope this can get off the ground, I'd love glider shows!


Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: SugaWhit] #801472
07/01/09 10:52 PM
07/01/09 10:52 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
Misty,

SugaWhit is right, putting $25 up for a charter membership is putting yourself out there.

I'd like to let everyone know that we are accepting your input on ANY level!

I am not asking you to take a leap of faith here... we really expect to gain our charter members after we have presented our Registry officially at the SGGA and after the NSGRA has become somewhat established.

I apologize for my relatively concise post, I am currently in Washington DC until tomorrow to help out with orientation for the next Congress-Bundestag-Youth-Exchange program.


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: oakley] #801653
07/02/09 11:48 AM
07/02/09 11:48 AM

R
Ricci
Unregistered
Ricci
Unregistered
R



I don't get here every day to read the posts, but I am very happy with the input everyone is offering. I want to quickly address why we are seeking "Charter Membership"

I would like to speak frankly with you - to educate and put things in perspective if I can.

I want to first try to shed some light on what starting this registry will entail. It's not just a website. The cost, time and maintenance of a website are so small in comparison to the real costs and time the NSGR will take is such that it can be disregarded. To give you an idea of the real costs we face – If we were to purchase a database already set up to do what we need, it would be thousands of dollars. To pay someone to create the database could run into tens of thousands of dollars depending on the complexity and the changes that we decided on as we go.

I have already put months of effort into this. The formulation of the account/registry number alone represents months and hundreds of hours. I have not yet fully explained the number for two reasons. First - it's only interesting to me and *maybe* the breeders and rescuers - for most others all they need to know is their glider has one and that makes it 'registered' - and second - it will be the keystone to the NSGR's success. Among other things, it will serve as a way to instantly verify lineages.

Further - I want to make clear that in order for data to get into the database - breeders, rescuers and individuals must submit the data - and NSGR staff enters the data. The database will not be open to all for data INPUT. For members and others with access to the web-interface, data will be able to be SEARCHED - but not altered. This is another way to insure authentication of the data.

OK back to the Charter Members. We devised this as a method to assess REAL INTEREST in the community. As you can see from the tiny glimpse of the kind of time and effort this will take - we are not interested in putting forth all the thousands of man hours needed if only 30 people are interested in paying to use this database. It is a gamble. We realized that these individuals will receive NO IMMEDIATE benefit – so we offered them a forever 10% off of all fees. So in the future they stand to make their $25 investment over and over and over in savings. It was the best thing we could think of to offer. If you buy a lottery ticket you don’t get 10% off of each subsequent ticket you ever buy again, but if you did – it would be similar to what we are offering you.

If 3000 people are interested enough to pay $25 - then we *might* be interested in putting forth our time and effort toward making this a reality.

It is not unreasonable for an organization to seek donations in the tens of thousands of dollars from each individual in efforts like these. It is not without precedence for an organization to operate for years on donations of even millions of dollars before they formally organize and gain Non-profit status.

So the things I am hearing from this community prove that you are all wanting and needing an established Registry of the type that we are offering to create for you - even seeking input and hand-tuning to your specific needs.

But what I am not picking up on - is a community dedicated enough to do what it takes to support it in the interim years - the years it takes to CREATE the dream you all have. The NSGR will be a NATIONAL Registry. You must think at least that broadly. It seems that most of the thinking here is about simply repeating what you have already had. Let me point out the obvious – what you already had didn’t fulfill your needs. So we are NOT repeating what clearly didn't work.

The NSGR will NOT JUST be another website. It will NOT be just a place where anyone can enter any data with or without verifiable documentation to back it up.

If we get 3000 people to donate $25 - we will have enough money to START making history happen. Databases are not cheap. Developing one from scratch will mean paying people to do that. A website where people can view certain data - have members only access to certain areas - and is secure from malicious attacks will all cost MONEY. Staff must be paid to enter data, maintain the database, report to the NSGRA any data that is flagged (the number again will help identify misconduct in registration which we can report to the NSGRA for investigation and remedy).

FURTHER - certificates must be made, printed, mailed. People will be able to request copies of their documentation this must be searched, compiled, printed, mailed. Annual meetings must be held. Interim meetings in the start up stages must take place. When we began discussions of the creation of the NSGR - we were communicating with Meghan in Germany. We are not all sitting in the same room with nothing better to do.

This is a business venture - and it needs
#1 at least a hint that people will be interested in paying for these services for years to come in enough numbers to make it worth our while.

#2 money to keep it going.

If anyone now is thinking that we are getting rich off of this. Ask yourself why no one has done this already. I can answer that. It is a LOT OF WORK with the faint hope of a modest return. We will NOT be getting rich off of this. If you still think so – do a little math. Pick just any figure – say $10 for individuals to register their glider. They do this ONCE. How many individuals are out there with a glider? Pick any number – let’s say 10,000. Now let’s say 10% of the 10,000 register their glider this year. To keep it simple – let’s just say that for the next 5 years 1000 individuals register their glider each year. So in five years – each year the NSGR will receive 10,000. We have to pay an accountant to do the taxes – that’s at least $400. We have to pay for the database (a modest price would be $7,000 – could be tens of thousands) we have to pay for the certificates that we will send each of these members and mail them. That’s certificates, printing fees, envelopes, mailing fees, pay an office staff person to do all this. NOT to mention paying someone to enter the data for these 1000 gliders into the database. Develop and maintain the website, keeping it from attack, updating members only areas – keeping the online forms functional – collecting the data. So that’s at least three individuals working in their areas of expertise – that need to be paid out of that 10,000 AFTER the operating expenses have been met. I am not a math expert – but at a glance it appears that there is very little if anything left to pay staff.

But there are the Rescuer accounts – that don’t pay anything – and they still generate all those expenses and the work for the staff!

Then there’s the breeders. Account holders to the NSGR. The breeders reap the real benefits the Registry will award. It’s only fair that breeders pay a fair price to insure the continuation and success of the Registry. But let’s say that breeders have to pay a fee to open and maintain their account with the NSGR. They don’t have to – but if they want a breeder number that appears as part of each of their gliders’ Registry numbers – which clearly establishing lineages – they will want one. Should breeders pay ‘per glider’ – it’s the same amount of work on our part. In fact. It’s MORE WORK – breeding gliders produce offspring that must be linked in the database in order to establish lineages. This doesn’t happen by magic. It takes the data entry person’s time and proper input to make those links. This is MORE work than the one-time $10 individually owned glider takes. Plus breeders register joeys - this means we have to generate the documentation, print it and send it to the breeder to be passed along with the glider to its new owner. Who may never register their glider - then we've done all that work for nothing.

Not only should they pay more per glider – they pay for their Account number. This account number is unique to them and will never be reissued. This is valuable to the breeder. This number becomes part of every glider that comes from them. Its value is almost priceless.

Fees have not been set – I hope you get a clearer picture why now. We sympathize with the situation this puts breeders in. If there had always been a Registry – then when the breeder first began business they would have budgeted for this expense. Or they would have only had two or three breeding pairs. But the Registry is coming into the scene after they have ten, twenty breeding pairs – or more. This could represent a huge expense, but with a priceless benefit to them.

Registered gliders WILL be more valuable – PEDIGREED gliders WILL be more valuable. This is a benefit they get from the NSGR.

This effort is HUGE. It will cost money to do. Should the staff be paid a fair wage? Yes. Is anyone getting rich? No.

But the Glider Community will BECOME ENRICHED because of the existence of the NSGR. Gliders themselves will benefit – because mills could be easily identified when they try to register their gliders – and inbreeding will be evident at a glance. From what I can tell - NOW is the time for creating this National - and what will be THE authoritative source - for establishing lineages and eventually pedigrees for Sugar Gliders in America. If we structure ourselves properly - we could just become the model for an INTERNATIONAL Registry.

You are all not only witnessing history - you are making it. (Charter Members Names are recorded on the historical document and in their case the become A DOCUMENTED PART OF HISTORY)

I invite anyone who still wants to gamble and spend $25 to support this huge effort - please do so. I beg anyone who knows already that they do not think this is necessary – please DO NOT.

The Charter Membership acts as a VOTE YES – if you pay that fee you are saying “Yes, the NSGR is a good idea and I want to do my part in supporting its start up effort. I see a real value and a real need for this Registry and I am putting my money where my mouth is – I believe I will use this service in the years to come and am willing to pay my share to see it come to fruition.”

Yes, that’s a mouthful for $25 to say. But that’s what we hear when you “join” you are not joining the Registry – you are joining us, the steering committee in the foundation of creating the NSGR.

NOTE: If you are thinking “I don’t like this Ricci person very much” – that’s fine. I am not here to be liked. I am here ONLY to develop a National Registry database for the Sugar Gliders. I have done my research. NOW is the time, if we wait any longer, I fear we will have missed the boat. You don’t have to worry about liking or disliking me. My involvement begins and ends with the database alone. Once it’s established it will work in the background and you won’t have to think about it (or me) again smile

thank you for reading through this lengthy post.

R.

Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: ] #801693
07/02/09 12:53 PM
07/02/09 12:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,228
USA
I
IowaMisty Offline
Glider Guardian
IowaMisty  Offline
Glider Guardian
I

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,228
USA
Well-spoken.

Are we to assume that if we join as charter members and this never comes into fruition, we are out our $25. I would like to support this endeavor but just think it would be good for people to understand that going in.

I would imagine that 3,000 people will be extremely hard to get. I don't know how many people are registered in this forum, but 3,000 sounds like a lot of people to get $25 from. That being said, are you working on any other forms of advertising this? Other forums, people's websites, facebook, twitter, craigslist, etc? I think some of this would be much easier if you had a website up and running with an explanation of what you're doing, where you're going with it, what you're asking for, FAQs, list of charter members already involved, etc. If people can SEE who's already supporting it, they'll be more likely to realize it's legit and important and become supportive as well. I know you're just getting your idea going, but wanted to suggest that as a means of giving you some legitimacy. If you aren't ready to start a website yet, I would be more than happy to give you several professional-looking pages on my website (http://www.sweet-sugar-gliders.com). It would be helpful if you could write up most of the content though, since you obviously know more about the details of what you're doing.

Another idea - if you could get your non-profit status (not sure what all is entailed in that but), I think some people would be more willing to donate MORE money than just $25. And maybe you could have different levels of charter membership even and somehow (even if it's just in a small way) recognize members who have donated larger sums of money toward the cause.

Some people may be willing to donate items to put up for auction or raffle as well, to help raise funds for your cause. I can't remember but I'm thinking it's against the rules to solicit that kind of stuff in this forum, but there are other avenues where you can do that. People do this as a means for generating funds to help rescue gliders. Maybe they would do it to help get this registry going.

Please feel free to PM me about any ways I can use my website to help you get the word out about your cause. I agree there is a big need for this, but many people will hesitate for a good number of reasons. Any little things we can do to reduce those reasons to hesitate would be very helpful.

And Ricci, we don't dislike you. Your posts are very informational & you make some very good points.

Misty

Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: IowaMisty] #801729
07/02/09 01:53 PM
07/02/09 01:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
While I believe this is a wonderful idea - I am not sure you will find enough breeders willing to participate to make it financially workable.

There are only a handful of glider breeders compared to the THOUSANDS of dog breeders who participate in the AKC registration process for numerous dog breeds. There are probably funds generated by AKC from their sponsoring of Dog Shows all over the country.

The Glider registry will not have that kind of income - at least not in the foreseeable future.

Have you gathered contact information for all USDA Licensed Glider breeders and contacted them to see if they would be willing to participate? MOST of them are not active members on the boards. Then there are the 'backyard' breeders who have one or two breeding pairs that sell joeys on craig's list etc. How do you plan to sell your registration program to them?

I do not see the point to having a rescuer registration fee. The true rescuers are not re-homing gliders to be bred. Most of they make sure the males are neutered before going to a forever home. I do not think many of them will be paying a fee just to obtain a "number" for the gliders they re-home.

My point is - you have a very worthwhile plan but unless you have already located 1000+ individual breeders willing to fully participate in the numbering and registration system you plan to set up the whole plan may be financially doomed.

I have 9 gliders as pets only. I would not need to pay to get them a "number". It would not increase their value to me in any way. That is probably the case with most people on the boards who love these critters deeply and have no plans to breed them. Oh, I also love my rehomed rescues from Val and my Craig's List glider just as much as the ones I purchased from recognized breeders.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: National Sugar Glider Registry and Association [Re: CandyOtte] #802264
07/04/09 09:57 AM
07/04/09 09:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
Hi All!

I just wanted to jump in here quickly to point out that we DO have a website!!!

www.gliderregistry.com




Also, please realize that this is not going to happen over night. Are there as many glider breeders as there are dog breeders? NO! But there are MANY MORE breeders at this time than there were when the AKC was established! This makes our job of starting up the Registry MUCH MUCH more difficult than it was for the 12 original founders of the AKC.


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver 

Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 545 guests, and 75 spiders.
Key: , , Owner, Admin
Newest Members
Mellefrl, klowvrrr, gracefulguardian, KiyokoTheDoll, Hazelneko
7324 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums132
Topics10,374
Posts159,161
posts in the last 24hrs0
Members7,324
Most Online2,693
Jan 2nd, 2020
Last 10 New Topics
Logging in Problem
by Anonymous. 03/24/24 11:43 AM
Gliders of the Round Table 10
by Hutch. 03/07/24 10:50 PM
Cloaca swollen?
by Mellefrl. 03/04/24 02:39 PM
2024 Sugar Glider Calendar and Cafe Press Store
by theresaw. 08/15/23 02:37 PM
Stewie:" It's MY Mouse!"
by Ladymagyver. 05/25/21 09:57 AM
Gliders of the Round Table 9
by Hutch. 02/12/19 11:35 PM
Popular Topics(Views)
849,635 TEXAS
679,102 OHIO
487,225 OKLAHOMA
432,221 UTAH
321,741 NORTH CAROLINA
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!
Home Forums Links Sitemap Vets Breeders Sounds Contact Us Names Rules & Policies

GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2024
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software
(Release build 20180918)
Page Time: 0.156s Queries: 15 (0.043s) Memory: 1.5848 MB (Peak: 2.0576 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2024-03-29 07:21:32 UTC