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Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740259
02/24/09 09:55 AM
02/24/09 09:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave
Gossamer  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
As far as HPW, many people cut out some of the honey and sub unsweetened applesauce - it's just not posted here because everyone gets spanked for "not sticking to the diet as written."

My question, which I've thought a lot about is are we maybe giving TOO MUCH vitamins? I've had many, many animals in my lifetime and have never used a vitamin supplement with any. Why do we do this with gliders? Just curious, don't know if there is even an answer.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: BindiAndScrubbie] #740260
02/24/09 09:58 AM
02/24/09 09:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
On the HPW box, it does say if using to replace high protein cereal, you only need to use half of the HPW due to higher protein and higher concentration.

Personally I feed the 1/8th cup the PML calls for where as HPW diet has you use 1/4. The increase may be good during breeding season, but it may not be good all year long.

PML calls for 1 ounce, that means 1 Ounces = 0.125 Cups which is 1/8th

HPW calls for 1/4 cup= 2 ounces. HPW is using twice the amount of HPW in it's diet which very well may be too much as well.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79] #740261
02/24/09 09:59 AM
02/24/09 09:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Thank you Tammy, I meant to post that last night but got side tracked :X


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79] #740262
02/24/09 10:04 AM
02/24/09 10:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,273
Dayton, Ohio
C
CharmedSuggies Offline
Glider Addict
CharmedSuggies  Offline
Glider Addict
C

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,273
Dayton, Ohio
Originally Posted By: gliderdad79
HPW calls for 1/4 cup= 2 ounces. HPW is using twice the amount of HPW in it's diet which very well may be too much as well.


If that might be a possible case Eddie, if using the HPW already, is it ok to try the PML to try and reduce the amt of HPW being used?

Or just as you were saying earlier, don't change the diet?

Have there been any further studies on the HPW to help with this issue?


Melissa & Aaron

Brat Pack
Roxy, Eddie, Lily :bb:

Crabby Crew
Brutus Theodore, Hugo Bug, Lulu :wfb: :leu:

Akeesha, Orion & Niko :rtmo:

SFS
Bella Belle mlove

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: CharmedSuggies] #740334
02/24/09 12:35 PM
02/24/09 12:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,397
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
Administrator
Feather  Offline
Administrator

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,397
Wisconsin
I switched from BML to HPW a couple months back, I just couldn't stomach the chicken and gravy baby food. I couldn't believe that people fed that to their children and I couldn't see feeding it to gliders. I wanted something that was better than highly processed baby food diet.


Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Khayman & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: CharmedSuggies] #740335
02/24/09 12:36 PM
02/24/09 12:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
For those following this thread:
This is a discussion, not a diet bash and there is NO reason to switch diets, etc. or be fearful. We just do not know enough regarding diets yet to say that.

This post is to raise awareness.
Years back, there were those that wanted to diet bash and went about it all wrong. New era now! GC WELCOMES good discussion so let's move forward!


The newer diets...gliders haven't been on them long enough to know any long term effects. It could be something in ALL the diets, or the sugars, or the veggies, or the fruit.......

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Karin] #740349
02/24/09 12:59 PM
02/24/09 12:59 PM

P
peem
Unregistered
peem
Unregistered
P



I have only been a glider mom for 2 months now. After reading these posts I am very concerned as I too feed my lil one bml. I do not plan to change his diet at this time simply because it was extremely difficult to get him to eat anything since he had a few health issues when I got him and was far too young as far as I am concerned to be taken from his mother. It just saddens me that we think we are doing the absolute best for our babies and the truth is we just dont know for sure. When I first brought my glider home he was on a pelleted diet and I read in many places it had no nutritional value, not that he was eating it any way. So after trying numerous different things including glider crack...I mixed up some bml and my baby started to thrive, gain weight and GROW! I am nervous now as I am sure all of us bml people are but all I can do for myself is read and learn. I hope someday this is something we no longer need to worry about. I thank god for this website every day because this is where I come to gather and store all my information about these little fuzzies and again I learned something new although not exactly what anyone would like to learn as someone out there has lost their babies. Please keep the information coming.

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740631
02/24/09 10:53 PM
02/24/09 10:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,400
Tulsa, OK, USA
S
SweetGliders Offline
Glider Slave
SweetGliders  Offline
Glider Slave
S

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,400
Tulsa, OK, USA
First off I would like to say to Karin, I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your Deja Vu and I am sending healing prayers and hugs your way. hug2 hug2 hug2


My question:
I know we have alot of glider owners out there. Is there a chance we can find out who has maybe been around the longest, what diet they have used with their babies and if they have had any gliders die and have with neocropsy results to get a starting point?

Also maybe owners who babies are on the other diets, like HPW, Pricilla's, Suncoast, etc.... can post what is the longest they have had gliders & which diet they use and if anyone has lost gliders with neocropsy results?

I know I just lost one of my babies to renal kidney failure. So I am trying to figure out What I could have done wrong. Her neocropsy report will be placed on the board for others to view.

I know I have had gliders for over 9 + years and when I first started out my gliders were on the Mazuri pellets, vegetables and fruit. After reading about diets and finding GC I switched my babies to the BML diet and they all did great. Then about 2 years ago my babies stopped eating the BML so I tried them on several different diets and they seemed to prefer the HPW diet so I slowly switch them over. All, but 2 pairs are on the HPW diet. The two pairs are still on the BML diet.

Anita heart


Anita heart
www.mysweetgliders.com

Owned by many Gliders & Cats + Wife to a Wonderful & Understanding Husband

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: SweetGliders] #740674
02/24/09 11:58 PM
02/24/09 11:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Peem I wanted to say that I think you are doing the best thing for your baby right now. If he is thriving on BML then by all means leave him on BML. Right now there are no definite answers to any of these diets so the best anyone can do right now is do the research they can and pick the best diet for their baby. One thing I want to point out about what you did is you found a diet your baby would actually eat and enjoy. Let's face it if our babies are not eating the diet we choose for them they are not getting any of the nutrients anyway so why bother. You are better off switching to a diet that they will actually eat and this means even if it is not the diet we feel is best I think. If we know a diet is bad and it causes such things as cancer then I would say do not feed it no matter what, but right now we don't have these facts on any diet. So what you did was listen to your gliders needs and that is the best anyone can do right now.
I mean if you look at BML and say ok it is high in iron (so are plenty of others out there if not all. I don't have stats) or it is to high in sugar (I also believe we could say that about a few others as well). You see what I mean. It isn't just one diet. BML did get brought into question because that is what Vu and Deja were on and so were their parents. So yes we do need to look at BML more closely, but that does not mean we do not need to look at the other diets out there as well. I am sure we all can agree to this.
I really hope that these discussions can continue as we find information that may be pertinent. I don't think anyone should be afraid to bring information to the board that they think may be something we should all take a closer look at. We should never bash anyone for trying to find reasons for all the things that are happening with the gliders. So I am really looking forward to being able to participate or start discussions like this one. This post brings up many questions and if you can think of a question that we need to look at by all means bring it to te board. I think the more questions we have the better. That is how we find out what is wrong. If we don't have questions we definitely do not get to the answers.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Critter Creations] #740711
02/25/09 12:43 AM
02/25/09 12:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 621
Oklahoma City, OK
Kage Offline
Glider Lover
Kage  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 621
Oklahoma City, OK
I'm so sorry for your losses *hugs*

This forum as gotten me curious more than anything. I've been reading everyone posts. Maybe with the gallbladder issues (that Danielle said) if you use the bml (since it calls for 2 teaspoons of that calcium ) maybe we should watch out how many yogurt drops you give them (if you do) since that has calcium in it as well. Even the lickly yogurt treats. Plus I have a rabbit and I've been reading on them (a bit) and your really suppose to give them sparingly once week since they are high in sugar or fat. but they have a totally different digestive system, but then again so do we and our sugar gliders.

I have a question, what makes the bml so high in iron? Maybe we can reduce it. I'm not really sure, just throwing some ideas out there. I feed my gliders the BML and they are eating at least half of what I give them.

Maybe reduce how much honey we give them. I still think a half cup is a lot of honey. I hope Iím kind of helping even though their isnít really an answer just yet.

I also agree with the fact that you are doing the best you can when you find the diet that your babies would eat. Like what Danielle stated. We even eat the stuff that we really is bad for us like fast food. Well most people. We don't eat everything at the buffet as well. We pick out our favorite things that we enjoy.

Man I hope I didn't upset anyone.


:grey: :grey: :grey: :grey:
Jennie RVT, my gliderbutts Oreo, Cookie, Snicker, and Doodle




Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Kage] #740721
02/25/09 12:49 AM
02/25/09 12:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Not reading everything just yet - only a quick comment here...

The yogurt drops we give gliders are not really yogurt. High in sugar, but not much else!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ValkyrieMome] #740727
02/25/09 12:53 AM
02/25/09 12:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 621
Oklahoma City, OK
Kage Offline
Glider Lover
Kage  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 621
Oklahoma City, OK
Ah maybe that plays a factor since it's high in sugar.

Last edited by Kage; 02/25/09 12:55 AM.

:grey: :grey: :grey: :grey:
Jennie RVT, my gliderbutts Oreo, Cookie, Snicker, and Doodle




Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Kage] #740732
02/25/09 12:59 AM
02/25/09 12:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
The frequent extra treats such as the drops is something that has bothered me for years.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79] #740738
02/25/09 01:04 AM
02/25/09 01:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 621
Oklahoma City, OK
Kage Offline
Glider Lover
Kage  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 621
Oklahoma City, OK
I haven't really given mine any treats. They are happy with the mealworms I give them or when I hand them some corn. They think it's the best thing ever.


:grey: :grey: :grey: :grey:
Jennie RVT, my gliderbutts Oreo, Cookie, Snicker, and Doodle




Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: gliderdad79] #740740
02/25/09 01:05 AM
02/25/09 01:05 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
I personally have owned gliders since 1992, I have seen diets change a lot. I have never fed my gliders sweets, treats here are worms. The gliders love them and insects are part of their natural diets.

I love this thread guys, keep it going. If we all come together I think we will find what is killing our glider prematurely.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Adri] #740754
02/25/09 01:25 AM
02/25/09 01:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Treats definately need to be considered. You have to know what is in the diet you are feeding as far as ratios. I know this is hard information to get, but even if you can just find out that hey this is high in iron. Well then you would know not to feed any treats that could make that higher. Along with any vegetables that would make that higher in their dinner. You might even want to compensate by giving oranges as a treat or strawberries. They are both high in Vitamin C. I think we need to just look at what we are feeding ourselves right now. I was never a bit treat feeder when I bred gliders. I always gave mealies or crickets as treat. Back then I did feed BML. Now I do have to say I feed treats. I do not feed a lot of treats as I know they won't eat their dinner too well if they get too much. So I also have to look at what I am feeding to see if there are any treats that could actually help rectify something in their diet. Like adding fruits high in vitamin c as treats or in their dinner so that they do not become vitamin c deficient.
I don't see why anyone would get upset with that post. I know there are those of us that love to feed treats galore, but to each his own. You brought up a great point though. treats are always a factor in anyone's diet. I would lose all sorts of weight if I got off of my treats. LOL My doctors would love that.
Really good topic. This could lead us to giving different types of treats to compensate for defects in the diet we are feeding or just feed those things in their dinners more often.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Critter Creations] #740790
02/25/09 02:53 AM
02/25/09 02:53 AM

C
Crafts_Critters
Unregistered
Crafts_Critters
Unregistered
C



First I want to say how truly sorry for the loss of your glider.

The discussion is very useful in regards to diets and impact on health of gliders.

I used to feed BML and was very effective for our malnourished and sick rescues that we took in several years ago. They got better on this diet quickly. Problem was many of my gliders were gaining weight and the only thing we could associate with was the BML. We made the decision to switch over to the Sugar Glider Exotic diet (Priscillas diet). We have found this diet to be very effective diet.

There could be a multitude of reasons causing problems with the liver. One of the jobs the liver performs is filters/detoxifies blood coming from the the digestive tract, before passing it to the rest of the body. It also produces substances that break down fats, convert glucose to glycogen, make certain amino acids, storage of vitamins and minerals (vitamins A, D, K and B12) and maintain a proper level or glucose in the blood. Gliders are not used to preservatives and other substances that we use in our foods. Consider what they eat in the wild then compare to what we feed (obviously we cannot duplicate their dietary requirements 100%). We can only assume that what we are doing is in the best interest of the glider. Based on the fact that many gliders have lived long and happy lives on existing, proven diets, shows that some of these diets are doing something right.

My theory is that the high sugar content, preservatives, sugary treats, improper ratios, improper qty's, plays a significant role in affecting the liver and other organs in Sugar Gliders. I felt the PP diet was a better diet for my gliders; contained less sugar, did not appear to have the same amount of preservatives and supported my gliders health. We use supplements, but we are cautious with the usage (this is subjective due to the lack of information out there on supplements impact on glider health). I agree with a comment in regards to the use of supplements. I feel the vegetables, fruits, and the staple diet should contain much of the nutrients that the glider needs (along with the mealworms and other feeder insects we feed).

I always felt we should duplicate natural diets to the best of our ability based on information currently available. We can't do this 100%, but, to better understand and support their nutritional requirement is important.

We are still learning much about diets. There are still stories out there that grapes can cause kidney failure in gliders. At one point they were considered safe, maybe they still are, I don't know. But the interesting question is why is this an issue?

I think as time goes on that diets will become more and more refined. I hope that over time that combined knowledge and assistance of veterinary community; diets will improve more and more over time.

Chad

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740809
02/25/09 04:19 AM
02/25/09 04:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
JillMarie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
I am sooo excited to read this thread. I have tried to start something like this a couple times and always seem to be stopped somehow. I feed a rotating diet composed of a couple different things and everytime I mention it I get told its a no-no. But when you feed the same thing over and over that is how toxins build up and deficiencies start. I am told that cats need to be fed the same food over and over (Wrong IMO). and dogs never to get table scraps (wrong Again). but All of my pets have been long lived (thank you God!) and no health problems and vets are pleased with their health. My gliders eat all the dinner I put out everyday. I have only had them since Nov. but they are doing VERY well. I was told not to rotate as they will get picky. but they seem to really like what I am doing. And I have cut back on supplements alot! I try to find natural forms of calcium rather that powder to add to food (like NATURAL maple syrup-just a tad watch the sugars)well...gotta go to work perhaps I will add more later


:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740824
02/25/09 07:08 AM
02/25/09 07:08 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave
Gossamer  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Originally Posted By: Crafts_Critters
We are still learning much about diets. There are still stories out there that grapes can cause kidney failure in gliders. At one point they were considered safe, maybe they still are, I don't know.


Chad - grapes are proven toxic in other animals (dogs, skunks). They haven't been proven toxic in sugar gliders for the simple fact we haven't had any gliders get into a large batch of them and die. I will not feed grapes. I dont trust them. If you give your gliders small amounts, the toxicity could be building up in their systems. Just my opinion of course.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Gossamer] #740832
02/25/09 07:37 AM
02/25/09 07:37 AM

C
Crafts_Critters
Unregistered
Crafts_Critters
Unregistered
C



Chad - grapes are proven toxic in other animals (dogs, skunks). They haven't been proven toxic in sugar gliders for the simple fact we haven't had any gliders get into a large batch of them and die. I will not feed grapes. I dont trust them. If you give your gliders small amounts, the toxicity could be building up in their systems. Just my opinion of course.

Jeannine;

There is a story regarding a vet that had several gliders die over a period of time.

It was determined -based on discussions with the owner(s)- that the deaths were possibly linked to grapes that were fed to them.

I have to find the story but I did remember reading about it then discussed the topic with another breeder in Florida.

But, it was not concrete proof that grapes are toxic to gliders. Sorry so vague. I can't remember all the points of the discussion.

I haven't fed grapes to my gliders since the issue came up.

Chad

Last edited by Crafts_Critters; 02/25/09 07:39 AM.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Gossamer] #740844
02/25/09 08:16 AM
02/25/09 08:16 AM

T
TWilson
Unregistered
TWilson
Unregistered
T



Two days before Christmas, I lost my little Dolly. She was fine and then she wasn't, she stopped eating HPW but ate the other parts of the diet, and she just wasn't acting her usual perky self...she started sleeping more. I had her at the vet 3 times within a week and nothing could be found. First for a check, then a couple of days later for a recheck and that time the vet decided (at my insistance) to put her on antibotics, and then a couple of days later. At that time the vet said to give the antibotics a couple of more days to get into her system, and if I saw no improvement, we'd do blood work......my Dolly died the very next day sleeping in my bra. frown

Her necropsy showed a massive liver tumor on the underside of her liver (she never had any signs of jaundice) along with nodules all over her liver, the vet was floored and I was a mess.
Dolly was not a rescue, I'd had her since she was 8 weeks old, she came to me on BML and I switched her over to HPW. Dolly was only 15 months old when she died.

Because of this, I started looking at EVERYTHING, her death and the cause of it consumed me. It was suggested to me by another member that they wondered if this could have been caused by aflatoxins, my vet said no. He said if that was the case, I would not only have lost her but several others as well.

The more I looked and researched as to possible causes, I kept coming back to fructose and the effects of feeding a diet high in it. A diet too high in fructose can cause a condition called, "non alcoholics liver disease." It will affect the liver in the same way alcohol does, it will shoot the liver and cause tumors and nodules.

I wondered why if this was the case, why it only affected my Dolly. Was it because she was a petite little girl and it was too much and do my other gliders have ticking time bombs within them too. To say I am a little worried is an understatement, but this is due to the fact I am eat up with guilt over Dolly's death, why couldn't I see it sooner or why couldn't I have done something different?!?!? The whys and not knowing are terrible!

I know our gliders are "Sugar gliders" because they like sweet things, however just because they like it doesn't mean they should eat sweet things. I can be a called a Sugar Mama for the same reason, I love sweets but know they are not good for me and I watch my consumption with them.

Gliders do NOT get the amount of fructose that we feed in the wild. Yes, they feed off nectars and sap, however nectars are seasonal, and the sap from a tree is NOT sweet. Take maple syrup for instance, when it comes from the tree, there is nothing sweet about it. It has to be cooked down and condensed to get its sweet taste.

Alot of the diets call for honey, honey is a condensed form of sugar and it is high in fructose. In the back of my mind, I felt I was feeding them too much in the HPW. I could see it in their appearance, all of mine gained weight and a couple are now chunky because of it.

Also, I read more and more about gliders no longer eating fruit when they are on HPW. Is this because gliders are trying to regulate themselves with the fructose, they instinctivly know they are consuming too much? Animals will self regulate in the wild, in captivity they can only do that so much.

This is my theory and my opinion from MY research. I am not saying to stop what you are feeding, only talk to your vet and research for yourselves. All to often we get too comfortable in what we feed, or feed it because we are told to, after all we like easy. Unfortunately diets are that that easy, whatever we feed we need to take into consideration what we feed along with it, fruits and veggies need to be looked at for calcium to phosphorus ratios, if they are balanced our diet isn't.

diet is not as easy as we'd like to think it is, however it is not rocket science either. We just need to learn as much as we can and educate ourselves to the needs of our little ones. I know I learned the hard way, and again that will be the guilt I'll carry everyday but at the same time, I am hoping and trying to do the best for my other babies.

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740857
02/25/09 09:33 AM
02/25/09 09:33 AM

M
moorie999
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moorie999
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M



Wow ... first time I've been on here for ages, and what an interesting discussion! And it's good to see it's not turned in to a blazing row ... smile

I'm sorry for those of you that have lost your gliders, I really am! Tammy, would you post the necropsy results on SGF please?

In the UK the high sugar diets (leadbeater mixes) have not been fed for many years because of the high sugar content.




Last edited by moorie999; 02/25/09 09:33 AM.
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740860
02/25/09 10:07 AM
02/25/09 10:07 AM

T
TWilson
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TWilson
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T



I will Marie, and I'm glad you pointed out the fact about not feeding honey or other sugars in the UK.

I was just going to reference that and the fact that liver issues over there are not common.

Also, I wanted to point out that as far as the aflatoxin issue, I do NOT feed anything that aflatoxins would be present. I only feed organic fruits and veggies and wash them thoroughly.

Glad to see you back Marie!!!!!! smile

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740871
02/25/09 11:04 AM
02/25/09 11:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
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hwh4ev Offline
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hwh4ev  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
hi everybody,
this is a very good subject. i feed my 2 gliders the suncoast diet, no treats except organic low fat blueberry yogurt maybe 1 tsp. every 2 weeks. i have never fed honey or maple syrup to my gliders.
my concern is with the vitamins. suncoast calls for calcium without the vit d3 because it is in the vionate. but the vionate has iron in it and i always feel uneasy when i sprinkle it on their fruits and veggies because i do not take any vitamins with iron in it because it stays in your system and can build up. i was thinking of dropping the vionate vits. before this subject even came up.
now on another note i just bought some organic raw honey (without comb) because i was going to mix a little with their boiled egg and a few mothers oats for a different protien food. this will be part of their dinner on sundays and sundays only. i read abt. the organic raw honey and it is loaded with vits./min.
so when i feed this on sundays they will not get any other vits/min. or calcium.
like i said i feel in my gut that giving my sugar gliders this vionate is wrong, i am going to stop giving it to them altogether because they eat all organic (except for soft suncoast pellets).
my sugar will be 2 yrs in july and rocky will be 1 yr. in july. so far they are in good health (knock on wood).
i also feed them smart water or fiji which both have minerals in it, no tap water at all.

i am sorry abt. the loss of these little ones and hope something can be found out abt. these liver problems.

regards,
nancy

Last edited by hwh4ev; 02/25/09 11:11 AM. Reason: clarify something

regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740875
02/25/09 11:14 AM
02/25/09 11:14 AM

C
Crafts_Critters
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Crafts_Critters
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Quote:
The more I looked and researched as to possible causes, I kept coming back to fructose and the effects of feeding a diet high in it. A diet too high in fructose can cause a condition called, "non alcoholics liver disease." It will affect the liver in the same way alcohol does, it will shoot the liver and cause tumors and nodules.

I wondered why if this was the case, why it only affected my Dolly. Was it because she was a petite little girl and it was too much and do my other gliders have ticking time bombs within them too. To say I am a little worried is an understatement, but this is due to the fact I am eat up with guilt over Dolly's death, why couldn't I see it sooner or why couldn't I have done something different?!?!? The whys and not knowing are terrible!


Tammy;

Are you referring to fatty liver disease or nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH) in the above statement? Can a glider develop this disease?

You have no reason to feel guilty about what you fed them. In many cases unfortunately, an animal will not show any signs of illness; especially when your dealing with tumors and cancers (same with humans). It is noted that their several widely used and effective glider diets out there; BML being one of them. You, like a lot of other glider owners used BML. It has worked for many. I use a different diet from BML.

The fact that not every sugar glider you have has been impacted does not necessarily mean that they are ticking time bombs. Their bodies and organs probably react the same way we do to diseases, especially when it comes down to tumors and other forms of cancer. Their bodies may be more adapt to handling filtering of toxins vs another glider. It may be the amount of toxin built up over a certain period of time.

My grandfather smoked like a chimney all of his life. He died from colon cancer. Never developed lung cancer. The question you pose is similar to questions patients pose to their doctor; it's the million dollar question(s). What caused this disease? Why did it happen? The answer is always the same from doctors and a former vet: "If I could answer those questions, then I can find a cure and retire."

Problem is when we get into those aspects of why a chemical, mineral, or whatever, causes a disease in one animal and not the other; no one can really give a definitive answer without further research.

There is another thing that some people may want to consider: the impact of regular tap water. Tap water contains "acceptable" levels of contaminates and other chemicals that are set to levels that make it safe for us to drink. It's possible that this could be a factor? It wouldn't be consistent because everyones tap water may contain different levels of chemical or contaminates in the drinking water.

The other factor is the food we feed is obviously high in sugar for some diets. Then there is the preservatives used in those foods. What impact does it have on gliders? The supplements, again, what impact would this have on gliders?

I find these questions and this type discussion very interesting. The hope that this research project being discuss launches with massive participation would be a great step forward.

Because when you start looking and seeing through necropsy's that gliders are being found with liver problems on a widespread basis as being the cause of death then this can lead veterinarians and others to possibly narrowing down a possible culprit or contributing factor to this problem. End result; eliminating that risk factor from the diet (should it be a dietary issue).

Chad

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740883
02/25/09 11:38 AM
02/25/09 11:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
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Critter Creations  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
I also wanted to bring up that I do feel it is important to know the approximate amounts of certain vitamins, fructose, protein, etc.. in the wild. Then we need to look at each thing and see how it would benefit them in the wild.
Our gliders do not live in the wild so there may be things they no longer need, things they need more of, and things they need less of.

For example: The sap and nectar that they take in in the wild could have a lot to do with the amount of energy they need to sustain their life. I realize there are also nutrients in there we need to look at, but we also have to admit sugary things give us extra energy. In the wild they have to evade predators, make sure they have places to live, sleep, etc.., breed and multiply, and hunt down their food. This would take a lot of energy to sustain. They are probably getting more fructose type things in our houses and they do not have to do hardly any of these things. Yes we try to get te largest cages we can and do out of cage play time, but even with this they are not running off the same amount of energy.

So I really think we need to see how much information we can get about what they eat in the wild and why they need it there and decide if they need it in domestic situations and how much more or less of it is required.
I totally agree they are getting too much sugar and this is most likely a cause of many cancer related deaths. I am sure this is not the only thing some of the diets out there have too much of, but people (vets, breeders, and your average glider owner) will modify what diets they have created if they have the information that certain things need adjusted. All the people out there creating these diets have put a great deal of thought behind them.
That is why people discussing these issues is so important as sometimes it takes a different point of view on something or facts we don't know about to get things perfected.

Like the grapes. When we bred years ago we were always told to feed at least 2 grapes a week per glider so that they wouldn't get constipated due to the fact there was a lot of iron in the diet. I did not realize there was new information out there on grapes specifically.
Is there something people are giving in place of the grapes to make sue they do not get constipated? I would think watery fruits and living skins on (washed well) so they get more fiber would work pretty well. Definately pay attention to this if you are feeding a diet known to have iron supplements in it.

I am loving this discussion and can't wait to hear more!!


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: ] #740889
02/25/09 11:47 AM
02/25/09 11:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
LabNGliderMom Offline
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LabNGliderMom  Offline
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Posts: 3,753
Florida
I have to say one thing... my two were on a pellet diet until I found GC and began to research diets... I chose HPW because of the ease of preparation and storing and also because of the availability of the ingredients and supplements.

My gliders also get mealworms... a few for each of them every morning and sometimes I hide a couple of yogies, some dried fruit, or some apple berry treats from Exotic Nutrition in their foragers.

Their fruit and veggies are often served in the form or glider relish and glider smoothies... which are frozen in ice cube trays and then put in their dish to thaw as they munch on it over night.

My gliders always looked and seemed healthy to me before... but AFTER I switched to HPW... their coats became silkier and softer, my female lost the fur stains she had come to me with and now looks great, they were both more energetic and my female suddenly became more friendly, and after less than 2 months on the new diet, my female has a joey IP and NEVER managed that feat prior to the diet change. Therefore, I was THRILLED with all of the changes after I put them on the new diet.

I never gave much thought to the honey used in the HPW, the relish, or the smoothie mix until I read this thread. Now I have to wonder... is all the sugar really necessary? Scout has put on weight... and I was GLAD to see that at first because I always looked at everyoneís pics on GC and wondered why my Scout was so lithe compared to the more stout gliders of my friends on GC... and my personal friends, as well... their Gliders were all larger than Scout, too... Now he is still NO WHERE near as large as some of the gliders I have seen... but he HAS developed a few FOLDS on HANGING FAT on his underside since the diet change.
HOWEVER I am not yet ready to blame this on the HPW... I have a feeling it is the mealies and yogies he steals from Gracie that may be more to blame in this case...

At any rate, isn't there ANY way to find a diet that can provide them with adequate and appropriate NUTRITION for LONG and HEALTHY lives WITHOUT excessive SUGAR or TOXINS or the POSSIBILITY of health issues? The answer is YES... with a database comprised of birth records, death records, necropsy records, vet records, mating records, weight tracking, joey tracking, diet records, etc... we CAN begin to put together models that provide us with PATTERNS so we can (down the road) determine the BEST of not only diets to feed but ALL THINGS related to glider care so that we can provide our furry babies with MUCH better care.

HUMAN CHILDREN started out the SAME WAY; you know... no database meant no records and high infant mortality rates. Once the data started being collected and analyzed, the mortality rate dropped DRAMATICALLY because there was a LINK to certain causes of deaths that could EASLIY be remedied but were not known before the data was collected and studied and reports released. IT WILL TAKE TIME but WE CAN DO IT... FOR THE GOOD OF THE GLIDERS!


Julie
Hubby: George
Kids: Ayla & Michael
Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
The Zoo: Midnight, Severe & Nala - Claude, Pixie, Tippy & Chili - Scout & Soluna, Theo & Deegie

http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com


Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: LabNGliderMom] #740900
02/25/09 12:12 PM
02/25/09 12:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
I totally agree with you LabnGliderMom. It will take a while and that's not saying we cant make changes as we find things out and do that up until we have it down. All animal diets have went through this process. Problem is that the sugar glider community has to be willing to do more things to help out. They do need to weigh their gliders at least on a monthly basis and record what diet they are on, what their weight is, are they breeding well (if that is what you are doing), do they look good and healthy, if they do pass away get the necropsy, etc.. If people are willing to do all this it would really help with this process. We shouldn't just do these things for research, but also so we know what is going on with our own gliders. Years ago we didn't have a whole lot of vets in our community at all and there wasn't much research being done out there in a professional manner really. At least now we do have vets that are really digging in and doing the research and passing it on to us. That helps a great deal.

I do want to say that if you feed a particular diet you should feed that diet as it is instructed. Definitely do not pick out what you like about one diet and another diet and mix them together. These diets have been well thought out and do have the ratios where they should be. Now there are a few different options out there now so definitely study the ones out there and ask other owners that feed it what type of results they are getting with it. A few years ago there were not many diets to choose from. You do need to feed what you think is best for your gliders, but as I said before if they will not eat it then it isn't doing them any good.

I would just hate to see any gliders getting sick from them getting all the wrong ratios of everything and getting sick. I know right now I don't know why some things are in the diets that are out there and if you don't know why it is there definitely find out. Choosing a diet is definitely worth the research. We have to feel as comfortable as possible with what we feed. I do have to admit it seems the average weight of a glider has increased since I was away. My gliders seem so much smaller compared to everyone else's at least thus far. I know years ago my smallest female was 69 grams, but that was a healthy weight. I had a male that was around 170 and he was considered rather large back then. I think my joeys were on average 48 grams (I am relying on my memory here, which isn't great LOL) when they left here at 8 weeks oop so it does seem weird to have them weigh close to that at 4 weeks oop now. Things have really changed a great deal in the weight area over the years. I don't think in all cases it is a good thing. I have to admit they are cute, but we have to ask ourselves how healthy are they.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Critter Creations] #741000
02/25/09 03:28 PM
02/25/09 03:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
JillMarie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
In answer to Danielle asking for a substitute for grapes ... how does anyone feel about using watermelon? when Frodo was dehydrated (badly)and wouldnt go potty and wouldnt drink pedialyte and was lethargic ...too much to even drink, I mixed for him water(for obvious reasons) honey (quick energy boost and tastes good) and juice from a watermelon (fresh not bottled) within an hour or so he was a normal pooping boy! vet said "great job and good idea!" why watermelon? dont know, i guess instinct God gave me said to do it and it worked.
In response to the person who said they wouldnt use NATURAL maple syrup...(sorry forgot where I saw it)maple syrup is low in fructose and higher in sucrose. so if fructose was a concern...also in 100 grams of honey there is 82.4 grams of sugar whereas maple syrup has 59.5... so less sugar!! and the maple syrup has the added benefit as alot of calcium. so how about cut back on the honey...get rid of the calcium supplements alltogether and add a LITTLE bit of maple syrup. I really dont understand why so many think this is abad idea and no one can still come up with a good reason why its bad. remember I am talking NATURAL here and NOT log cabin.
personally I feed my gliders a rotating diet, again I am told No No many times here. but when I read everything here on THIS thread I am more determined to stick to my diet plan as it makes for great variety and removes alot of the concerns of too much honey, toxins adding up, etc, etc.
I feed BML every other day (3 times a week). In between I rotate between 4 DIFFERENT pelleted diets which are ALWAYS softened with water before feeding. In addition: twice a week a tiny bit of yogurt and twice a week boiled chicken. every morning 2 mealworms and 3 crickets each (handfed as treats or training aids-they all come to their names!)NO Other treats! (I feel yogurt drops are candy so I dont use them). so when we want to feed a treat its a piece of friut or a bug. twice a week I also give them a "nectar" I mix up consisting of water, bee pollen and acacia gum with a TINY bit of maple syrup to make it taste better (they dont like the acacia gum...go figure)My vet read my diet and she likes it ALOT. there is plenty of variety, the gliders ALWAYS eat all of it and they are big (not fat) and so far healthy. Oh yeah! EVERYNIGHT they get a variety of mixed veg and/or fruit as the MAIN course. and never add supplements to the fruit or pellets. the only supplements is what is in the BML.
also when I mix the BML i do not use quite as much calcium as suggested. and I NEVER use the reptile vitamins. each animal needs nutrients in a different form and reptiles metabolize differently than mammals...I cant help but think this was taken into consideration when they were manufactured but I could be wrong. when I was young we used to give the chickens crushed oyster shells as a calcium supplement but I sure wouldnt feed that to my gliders! maybe they dont do that on chicken farms any more with the advance of knowledge (anyone get the irony in that?) just because its been done that way so long doesnt make it the best.
and I always use BOTTLED water. tap water especially in the winter can peak in chlorine levels and perhaps can hurt the delicate balance in their tiny little intestines?
I know I am new to this so am no expert but I have never been good at following the crowd. I am always searching for a better way. and so far I like the "cindy love" diet also, and do want to try HPW but would rotate it in and NOT rely on it all the time.


:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!
Re: Diets and liver issues [Re: Critter Creations] #741018
02/25/09 04:08 PM
02/25/09 04:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
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Gossamer  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Originally Posted By: K & D Exotics

I do want to say that if you feed a particular diet you should feed that diet as it is instructed. Definitely do not pick out what you like about one diet and another diet and mix them together. These diets have been well thought out and do have the ratios where they should be.


The problem with this is that we don't really know what the ratios are. None of these diets have been around for 30 years or anything. As time goes on, we may find that these diets are not appropriate for our gliders. As mentioned, the dietary requirements of wild sugar gliders are not the same as our now domesticated gliders. Through threads like this, we will start to learn what our gliders need. Liver disease is predominant in gliders all of a sudden - we need to figure out why, so we can adjust it. I'm not saying anyone should experiment with diets, as that could also be detrimental to your gliders, but we should definately discuss things like this.

I also have another thought - I know many of us have cages purchased from ebay - those powder coated ones - from what I've read they are made in China. The Chinese seem to be using toxic chemicals to make some of the stuff imported to the USA (pet food, children's toys) - I wonder if there is an issue there? Just food for thought.

Last edited by Gossamer; 02/25/09 04:10 PM.

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