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Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ValkyrieMome] #700979
12/29/08 12:52 AM
12/29/08 12:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
I never said that it was a myth or theory that the gene pool is "LIMITED".

The majority of breeders I have come across/seen breed leu to het.

There are limited numbers of breeders that breed for widening genes.

Everything I have heard about breeding Leu to Leu is
"don't do it"
"it's bad"
"You can never do it"
etc, etc, etc

Is there anyone on here that has a college degree and who is a scientist or geneticist that is doing research and finding out info on this?

I was just plainly asking why Leu to Leu breeding would be unacceptable 10, 15, 20 generations down the line but breeding other animals 5 generations down the line is OK.
I never got an answer about that.

Gliderplayroom, you may be the exception to the rule but I still don't agree that with proper breeding programs and better pairings we can't breed leu to leu with no ill effects thus lowering the price so everyone can enjoy having colorful gliders in their colonies.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ValkyrieMome] #700981
12/29/08 12:53 AM
12/29/08 12:53 AM

R
rbaby
Unregistered
rbaby
Unregistered
R



I guess I am not used to all the heated debate yet, that comes from cherishing such wonderful magical little monkies. Awww I'll get used to it, I love to hear what you have to say though you are very passionate! grin

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #700982
12/29/08 12:54 AM
12/29/08 12:54 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline OP
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NY
Lol don't mean to start a 'flame war' but this is an interesting topic with a lot of holes and unexplained things that i wanted to bring out in the opened and also learn from people on here as well as sort of debate :-)

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Sherri] #700983
12/29/08 12:57 AM
12/29/08 12:57 AM

P
peace
Unregistered
peace
Unregistered
P



Their just has not been enough generations to do a lue to lue breeding yet without inbreeding at this time. Most likely in about 7 more years it can and will be done but at this time the lines are just to close to do so and that is why it is not accepted.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun] #700985
12/29/08 12:58 AM
12/29/08 12:58 AM

R
rbaby
Unregistered
rbaby
Unregistered
R



Talk on everyone, I have learned so much in the past 2 weeks, my brain is overflowing with goodies.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #700989
12/29/08 01:01 AM
12/29/08 01:01 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
G
GliderFun Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
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NY
Well then the only answer I have gotten was:
"NEVER DO IT GRRRR"
"YOU WILL BE REJECTED BY THE GLIDER COMMUNITY IF YOU DO THIS AND YOU WILL NEVER BE ALLOWED BACK EVERY EVER AGAIN"
"This can never be done"
"grr"


I never got an answer like
"You can do it when you out breed about 10 generations. It is possible, it will just take some time before it's possible. There are people working on this"

I was under the impression that everyone thought it was impossible and when someone says something is impossible I always do a double take because nothing is impossible (or very few things)

Thank you peace

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun] #700995
12/29/08 01:07 AM
12/29/08 01:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis
glidergrl1513  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
Originally Posted By: GliderFun
Well then the only answer I have gotten was:
"NEVER DO IT GRRRR"
"YOU WILL BE REJECTED BY THE GLIDER COMMUNITY IF YOU DO THIS AND YOU WILL NEVER BE ALLOWED BACK EVERY EVER AGAIN"
"This can never be done"
"grr"


I never saw that. dunno

What I saw was right now there are only 3 leucistic lines, so if you breed THOSE leu gliders now, you will be looked down upon. Nobody said it should never be done. We're talking in the present; in fact, most people posting on this thread have acknowledged that it would be acceptable later on down the lines, once they have been bred out. Which is what you are planning on doing (or talking about doing). So I'm really not sure where you're getting this from. I don't see anyone outright disagreeing with you, they're just saying that it would not be acceptable right now.

And I'm also surprised that you would assume that people are not breeding out the lines. The most trusted breeders are doing just that. Where else would we get the lower hets from? That happens when you breed a het (or possible het) to a normal (or other possible het).

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun] #701003
12/29/08 01:11 AM
12/29/08 01:11 AM

C
crazytanak
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crazytanak
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i want to know who gave away a free leu! i was willing to pay 500 and everyone accused me of being cheap, having an alterior motive, being a backyard breeder, anything. And gliderfun is right yet again, you all got mad at me when i said it should be tried! everyone was like "oh crazytanak, we are trying to do that" then why is everyone so against it if you are all supposedly trying it? just a little food for thought.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #701007
12/29/08 01:12 AM
12/29/08 01:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: crazytanak
"oh crazytanak, we are trying to do that" then why is everyone so against it if you are all supposedly trying it? just a little food for thought.

We are trying to get to the point where it would be possible. It isn't the same thing as doing it now.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ValkyrieMome] #701011
12/29/08 01:20 AM
12/29/08 01:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
No one said that to me now, I am talking about when I have brought it up to other people other times in the past. All I got was, "don't do it" "It can't be done" "it's bad to do"

I never had anyone tell me that people were actually breeding out the lines to attempt this in the future until this thread... I was under the impression, before I made this thread, that it was frowned upon and you would be shunned even thinking about doing such a thing.

I have sent an email to a zoologist to see what his take on this subject is and what his experience is and see how he would go about doing such a thing and for some more general information.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #701024
12/29/08 02:06 AM
12/29/08 02:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Originally Posted By: crazytanak
the only people who want money is the people who wont try gliderfun's theory. by breeding a leu x leu you can get more leus, which everyone wants to buy, and you can lower the price so people can get what they truly want.


Gliders shouldn't be bred to "meet demand". What you're suggesting, as has already been said, would be to breed gliders that would be cheaper, but at what cost to the glider?...weakened immune systems, genetic defects, sterility, etc...???

See what I'm saying?

To breed a glider because of "supply and demand" rather then to better the glider(or, in this case, the leu gliders) is something that is done for the sole purpose of making money. I'm sorry, it can be termed any way you like, but that's the facts. :\


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun] #701025
12/29/08 02:07 AM
12/29/08 02:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
I guess I don't understand why you would come to a forum that has been established for many years and just assume you know more than the people who have been here for years?

From the very first reply to your initial post, the response was "there aren't enough generations to do that yet." Your response was to reply that "no one has taken the time to try it." Even when people replied that there are serious breeders who are trying to do just that, you didn't seem to understand, or believe, or... ?

We are not all just "pet owners" and "hobbiests" here. There are many who have researched more than you can even begin to understand. Rather than "take on the establishment", perhaps you'd like to contribute your knowledge in a way that benefits all? Yes, we do have scientists on this forum. We have members here who have had gliders since they first came into this country. We have members who have worked very closely with glider-knowledgeable vets, in order to improve the knowledge for all of us.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Guerita135] #701034
12/29/08 02:19 AM
12/29/08 02:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline OP
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GliderFun  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
Originally Posted By: Guerita135
Originally Posted By: crazytanak
the only people who want money is the people who wont try gliderfun's theory. by breeding a leu x leu you can get more leus, which everyone wants to buy, and you can lower the price so people can get what they truly want.


Gliders shouldn't be bred to "meet demand". What you're suggesting, as has already been said, would be to breed gliders that would be cheaper, but at what cost to the glider?...weakened immune systems, genetic defects, sterility, etc...???

See what I'm saying?

To breed a glider because of "supply and demand" rather then to better the glider(or, in this case, the leu gliders) is something that is done for the sole purpose of making money. I'm sorry, it can be termed any way you like, but that's the facts. :\






That's not what she's saying at all.
My plan was to breed out lines so that leu to leu breeding can happen safely. If it did, it would lower the price breeders would get for their leus meaning they wouldn't be a 'big money maker' for breeders.

Also, breeding leu to leu would NOT necessarily produce weakened immune systems, genetic defects, or sterility.
As in what I am saying, breeding out lines and then breeding 2 leus from 2 lines together would cause no more health problems then your average glider has.

To me it seems as if we have been all brain washed to believe that if someone wants to breed leuXleu they are at it for the money. Well what about those who want to spread the lines to a safe distance to where this could be done safely. Are they still at it for the money?
If you think so then I believe you are sorely mistaken.
Again, if the breed leu to leu (when it's safe to do so) the price would go down for the leus which would mean breeders wouldnt be able to sell them at such high prices.

Even if many people did decide to breed leu to leu without the lines being bread out 10 generations, you would not make tons of money and I think that is what people do not understand. The price per glider would go way down.. So it's not about the money, at least, not for the smart people.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ValkyrieMome] #701037
12/29/08 02:29 AM
12/29/08 02:29 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
I guess I don't understand why you would come to a forum that has been established for many years and just assume you know more than the people who have been here for years?

From the very first reply to your initial post, the response was "there aren't enough generations to do that yet." Your response was to reply that "no one has taken the time to try it." Even when people replied that there are serious breeders who are trying to do just that, you didn't seem to understand, or believe, or... ?

We are not all just "pet owners" and "hobbiests" here. There are many who have researched more than you can even begin to understand. Rather than "take on the establishment", perhaps you'd like to contribute your knowledge in a way that benefits all? Yes, we do have scientists on this forum. We have members here who have had gliders since they first came into this country. We have members who have worked very closely with glider-knowledgeable vets, in order to improve the knowledge for all of us.




Like I said after someone told me in the beginging that there wasn't enough distance between lines to do it YET but it can be done I said "that is exactly what I wanted to know"

I never said I knew more, I don't remember typing that and i reread and didn't fine anything where I said I knew more.

Yes this is an established site, so it Wikipedia but i would never use that source for a research paper. I would be laughed at.

I am sorry that I don't believe things that people just tell me without getting an explanation and some proof.

I wasn't aware that there were scientists, geneticists, zoologists on here that actually researched leu to leu breeding and genetics in such situations. You are the fist to tell me that.

Excuse me if I am a little skeptical about things people tell me. It's not always good to trust everything you hear. I don't even trust my vet/doctors without doing my own research first, thankfully!

And I can understand a lot, thank you.

Last edited by GliderFun; 12/29/08 02:30 AM.
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderFun] #701042
12/29/08 02:41 AM
12/29/08 02:41 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
S
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarlope  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
Something to consider (and maybe this won't be a concern one day) but breeders are working so hard to expand the gene pool of leus and when you breed to leus together, you immediately decrease the size of the available gene pool again. dunno


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: sugarlope] #701046
12/29/08 03:22 AM
12/29/08 03:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Guerita135  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
IMO, even if you could find 2 completely unrelated leus(say a new line popped up), they STILL should not be bred.


Leucism is an abnormality: a.k.a.-it ain't normal! And, in some animals, such as dogs, leucistics aren't even allowed to be shown because the purpose of breeding the animals is to better the breed and leucism is thought of as a "genetic defect" and is a BAD thing.

You can't ignore the fact that in most other animals breeding leucistics is discouraged...it's for a reason! So, why should gliders be any different? Are they an exception to the rule?!

Obviously, we aren'g going to stop breeding leucistics, because we love them to itty bitty pieces, but we need to bred them with care, to ensure that they stay as healthy as possible.

Anyways, back to why leucistics shouldn't be bred(even unrelated ones)...

They shouldn't be bred because there is a GOOD POSSIBILITY of them having health issues, a much higher risk them a gray glider with the leu gene.

When you breed a leu and a leu het you've got 1 gray genepicture the leu as having 2 leu genes and the gray as having 1 gray gene and 1 leu gene) in there that helps to add in "fresh blood", but when you breed 2 leus they both have only the leu gene, no gray to "water it down", so if there are any genetic defects or immune problems, then they WILL be passed onto the babies through the leu genes because the babies HAVE to get the leu gene.

Does that make any sense?

It's just so much easier to say: it shouldn't be done!

Now I have a question for YOU: why do you think leu should be bred to leus? Other then, of course, "people want affordable leus"? I want to know how you feel that it will HELP the leu lines to breed 2 leus.

Remember, breeding gliders isn't about just getting "pretty colors", it's about better the lines while HOPING to get those "pretty colors". True, breeding a leu to a leu het won't get you as many leus, but the leus you DO get, will have a much better chance at not having any health issues(or, if they due, they'll be recessive, so to speak).


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Guerita135] #701050
12/29/08 04:44 AM
12/29/08 04:44 AM

L
Lawrence
Unregistered
Lawrence
Unregistered
L



Hey guys. I've actually been thinking about this topic quite a bit, and lo and behold, I find something like this! I recently saw a video on YouTube where a person had a good handful of leu gliders, and I asked:

"What's the probability of all these gliders being inbred?"

This person replied with: (paraphrasing)

"Leus are inbred, and no one really knows what to do about it anymore."

I don't want to bring out any "geneticist/scientist" snooty behavior because a person with a college degree or the title of scientist is no better than a person who is a stay-at-home mom or a blue-collar working man.

Moving on, I believe that the leu bloodline is not diverse enough to breed with one another because there won't be enough genetic variation. There's something called a "bottleneck effect" in the field of zoology, and it comes out to this:

If a population was once various in genetic information and then dramatically reduces in size, then the few genes that are left will be more susceptible to natural disasters and competition.

With this said, I believe that leu x leu breeding would cause a higher rate of susceptibility of death to the gliders, mainly because the nonrandom DNA is being replicated over and over again. Although in terms of supply and demand, we can have lower prices if we have a higher population of leus.

A final and third branch: is it really ethical? Guerita135 mentioned that leucisticism is an abnormality, and should we really be trying to breed that mutation for the sake of profit's worth?

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #701055
12/29/08 05:06 AM
12/29/08 05:06 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer
heartlandglider  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
This is not intended to start a big discussion. It is purely for anyones info that wants it. I am already quite familiar with the ongoing debate on this subject.
I have one leu to leu pair. To date they have had approximately 6 batches of leu joeys. I have kept for myself about 4 of their joeys. The oldest joeys to date are about 2 years old. They have been producing their own joeys. To date I have had no illnesses etc with any of these gliders. There are several other people on GC that also have some of these leu to leu joeys. If there have been any health issues with them, I am unaware of them. Perhaps some of these people might like to comment on how their joeys are doing?
Any too closely related breedings can result in problems regardless of color or animal.
I have been breeding Pomeranians for over twenty years It is not only common in them to do related breedings, it is actually preferred.
There will always be the ongoing debate with people on what is acceptable and not acceptable with anything. This is how wars begin. Personally, I have my own opinions also, but as long as what someone else does not hurt me or anyone I love I try to keep my opinion to myself. After all, it is my opinion and we all have one.


Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders



Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: sugarlope] #701058
12/29/08 05:11 AM
12/29/08 05:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,570
Kansas City, MO
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict
Laurens_Babies  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,570
Kansas City, MO
Ok I've been watching this thread long enough time for ME to come in. Going backwards...
Originally Posted By: sugarlope
Something to consider (and maybe this won't be a concern one day) but breeders are working so hard to expand the gene pool of leus and when you breed to leus together, you immediately decrease the size of the available gene pool again. dunno

THIS would be my numero uno I totally agree post. This is my number one issue on why I refuse to support leu to leu breeding. Even *if* you found two leus with great lineage these leus would be the product of breeders YEARS of work of breeding out lines and making things better by merging the two you completly "dirty" the lines up.

Originally Posted By: crazytanak
GliderFun, i so agree with you! people she knows it would take a LONG time to breed out 10-15 generations, but what she is saying is that no one is even trying to start the process of getting to those 10-15 generations down the line. Nicole, you think everyone is out there for money, you accused me of the same thing and i dont even breed. people with leus now cant sell them because all they want is money, and the majority of the community got mad at me cuz i want a leu for 500, not 1,800. that is more than i pay on bills in a month, including my morgage! the only people who want money is the people who wont try gliderfun's theory. by breeding a leu x leu you can get more leus, which everyone wants to buy, and you can lower the price so people can get what they truly want.

Wow I could go on for days about this post but for the simple sake I'm probably only going to post once in this thread and don't want to go back and forth also I would rather NOT get a warning PM from GC mods/admins ( roflmao )I will keep this simple. Suggesting that breeders today are selfish for NOT breeding leu to leu is one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard so far this year. The fact that you don't even pay 1800 on bills so therefore you shouldn't have to pay it for a glider is just silly. Cars, TVs, Computers, vacations all cost more then what you would spend on your montly bills. If you want to start a thread on the reasons WHY colored gliders cost so much be my guest but this has nothing to do with leu to leu breeding. By your theory of breeding leu to leu equals get more into the market so more are sold and prices go down well, thats already happened but your general way of thinking is how leu lines got so inbred and mosaic lines are sterile. "Do what you must to pump as many into the market as possible". Everytime I turn around their is a leu baby born.. We don't have a shortage!
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
I guess I don't understand why you would come to a forum that has been established for many years and just assume you know more than the people who have been here for years?

From the very first reply to your initial post, the response was "there aren't enough generations to do that yet." Your response was to reply that "no one has taken the time to try it." Even when people replied that there are serious breeders who are trying to do just that, you didn't seem to understand, or believe, or... ?

We are not all just "pet owners" and "hobbiests" here. There are many who have researched more than you can even begin to understand. Rather than "take on the establishment", perhaps you'd like to contribute your knowledge in a way that benefits all? Yes, we do have scientists on this forum. We have members here who have had gliders since they first came into this country. We have members who have worked very closely with glider-knowledgeable vets, in order to improve the knowledge for all of us.

Maybe I should have just quoted this and seconded it. I'm not trying to stand her point fingers at you like "Mother knows best" but ya know before people come on here yelling as loud as they can they just don't seen any sense in what we have been saying for YEARS, I think if you just held still long enough you would see exactly what Alden stated above. We arn't just watching Discovery Channel and pulling this information for you out of now where. I have owned gliders for MANY MANY years.. and I am just NOW adopting my first leu hets. I feel like before I was not informed enough to even venture into breeding leus. Its only with great guidance from a fellow breeder I respect very highly I'm going to be bring my first joeys with leu lineage into my home.

Read, read, read and read more. Do your research not just on genetics but on abnormal genetic trates such as Leus, Albinos and Cremino's as well.


:offtopic:
" Rather than "take on the establishment", "
roflmao Wow Alden you really had me cracking up at this one..

Originally Posted By: GliderFun
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
I guess I don't understand why you would come to a forum that has been established for many years and just assume you know more than the people who have been here for years?

From the very first reply to your initial post, the response was "there aren't enough generations to do that yet." Your response was to reply that "no one has taken the time to try it." Even when people replied that there are serious breeders who are trying to do just that, you didn't seem to understand, or believe, or... ?

We are not all just "pet owners" and "hobbiests" here. There are many who have researched more than you can even begin to understand. Rather than "take on the establishment", perhaps you'd like to contribute your knowledge in a way that benefits all? Yes, we do have scientists on this forum. We have members here who have had gliders since they first came into this country. We have members who have worked very closely with glider-knowledgeable vets, in order to improve the knowledge for all of us.




Like I said after someone told me in the beginging that there wasn't enough distance between lines to do it YET but it can be done I said "that is exactly what I wanted to know"

I never said I knew more, I don't remember typing that and i reread and didn't fine anything where I said I knew more.

Yes this is an established site, so it Wikipedia but i would never use that source for a research paper. I would be laughed at.

I am sorry that I don't believe things that people just tell me without getting an explanation and some proof.

I wasn't aware that there were scientists, geneticists, zoologists on here that actually researched leu to leu breeding and genetics in such situations. You are the fist to tell me that.

Excuse me if I am a little skeptical about things people tell me. It's not always good to trust everything you hear. I don't even trust my vet/doctors without doing my own research first, thankfully!

And I can understand a lot, thank you.

By this post I feel like we are getting no where. I respectfully bow out of this conversation . Have a good night.

***Sorry everyone for the long rambling post, but I've been reading for awhile thought I would add my personal opinions but its late and spelling is off too!!! Night! ***


~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Laurens_Babies] #701102
12/29/08 08:59 AM
12/29/08 08:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave
Gossamer  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
I think the main issue here is not crossing LeuxLeu, it is the lack of knowledge of any of the people wishing to do it. (not refering to any paticular person) Inbreeding is necessary to establish a line. It is done all the time in other species of animals. Obviously, someone needs to know what they are doing. You just can't through two animals with the same traits together. The animals have to be chosen carefully to prevent defects. Outcrossing can actually be very dangerous if a breeder doesn't know what they are doing. They can actually introduce defects into a line. Someone please link me a website where it states that animals need to be 15 generations out to be safe to breed because I've never heard of that.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Gossamer] #701122
12/29/08 10:28 AM
12/29/08 10:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 343
Northern VA.
GliderGuyVA Offline
Glider Lover
GliderGuyVA  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 343
Northern VA.
Ok everyone I have some info for you all to read over. First off, this link should help a bit (it's called "Mendel's First Law of Genetics")
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/mcclean/plsc431/mendel/mendel1.htm
second, at some point today my wife will chime in on the subject. Before becoming a vet she was a Molecular Biologist and did DNA research. She has some insight that she will share with you all in the hopes that it will shed some light on the subject. She does not mormally get involved in such a discussion/debate as it can and will get overheated at times. But since we both love Gliders to the extreme she has decided to share her knowledge with people that have the same passion about Gliders as we do. BBL.
smile


Slave to:
My Wife
Four - Dogs
Two - Cat's
Four - Ferrets
Eight plus - Gliders
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderGuyVA] #701149
12/29/08 11:48 AM
12/29/08 11:48 AM

S
ShyRascal
Unregistered
ShyRascal
Unregistered
S



Diane, have you kept records on your breeding leu to leu? I was curious to find out because this is the first I have heard about anyone breeding leu to leu. Also you said that they have produced only 6 leus(?), but have they produced any greys? Someone before stated that if you did breed leu to leu you would only get Leu's. I don't see how that would be possible, because they would still carry the grey genes if they had a grey glider in their lines. Am I wrong in assuming this?

Plus I have noticed that in looking at the lines of leus they only go back at most 5 generations or so, if that much. How are you supposed to tell if Leu's are related if you can't look that far back in their family tree? You would think that with leus in particular you would be obsessed with lineage to make sure that if 2 leus are bred that they are far enough apart to make sure their wouldn't be any health issues.

Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderGuyVA] #701156
12/29/08 11:59 AM
12/29/08 11:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave
Gossamer  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
That will be excellent.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #701158
12/29/08 12:00 PM
12/29/08 12:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
All Leus are related.

There are NOT 3 lines. There was only one original line. The "three" lines have been developed by focusing on breeding out 3 separate lines.

With enough breeders carefully breeding out the lines, hopefully this will continue.

I have little to say to Diane. Breeding leu to leu is destroying years of careful breeding. There *will* be a time when it is possible. But it should not be done at this time.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #701184
12/29/08 12:58 PM
12/29/08 12:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: Lawrence
Hey guys. I've actually been thinking about this topic quite a bit, and lo and behold, I find something like this! I recently saw a video on YouTube where a person had a good handful of leu gliders, and I asked:

"What's the probability of all these gliders being inbred?"

This person replied with: (paraphrasing)

"Leus are inbred, and no one really knows what to do about it anymore."

I don't want to bring out any "geneticist/scientist" snooty behavior because a person with a college degree or the title of scientist is no better than a person who is a stay-at-home mom or a blue-collar working man.

Moving on, I believe that the leu bloodline is not diverse enough to breed with one another because there won't be enough genetic variation. There's something called a "bottleneck effect" in the field of zoology, and it comes out to this:

If a population was once various in genetic information and then dramatically reduces in size, then the few genes that are left will be more susceptible to natural disasters and competition.

With this said, I believe that leu x leu breeding would cause a higher rate of susceptibility of death to the gliders, mainly because the nonrandom DNA is being replicated over and over again. Although in terms of supply and demand, we can have lower prices if we have a higher population of leus.

A final and third branch: is it really ethical? Guerita135 mentioned that leucisticism is an abnormality, and should we really be trying to breed that mutation for the sake of profit's worth?


You said it perfectly! smile That's what I was trying to get at but I'm a "degreeless stay-at-home wife", so I didn't know all the fancy words, lol.

Originally Posted By: ShyRascal
Also you said that they have produced only 6 leus(?), but have they produced any greys? Someone before stated that if you did breed leu to leu you would only get Leu's. I don't see how that would be possible, because they would still carry the grey genes if they had a grey glider in their lines. Am I wrong in assuming this?


Leus do not have the gray gene, therefore, if you pair 2 leus, you will ONLY get leu babies.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #701525
12/29/08 09:15 PM
12/29/08 09:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer
heartlandglider  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
I can't speak about anyone else, but I gave away a free leu. I wanted her to have a good home. I am the one accused of being greedy along with many other adjectives. However, LuLu has a great home and I couldn't be happier for her or them.


Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders



Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: ] #701559
12/29/08 09:47 PM
12/29/08 09:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer
heartlandglider  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
I have one pair of leus and only a few gliders.I have kept most of their babies and paired them with mosaics. I do have records on these gliders and any babies I have sold. I keep records on my gliders just like my dogs for AKC. All resulting babies from this pair have been leus. If you are interested in anymore info, please feel free to contact me.
My first motivation for breeding leu to leu was because I wanted more white gliders without having to keep paying the $2000-2500 breeders were charging at that time. It was also to be able to put some leus available at prices that anyone that wanted one would be able to afford .
I have had to put my gliders on credit cards and pay on time to pay what some of the prices are. I can't make anyone else change their price, but I can control what price I place mine for. I still am trying to make ALL glider colors more available to anyone that wants them and enjoying my own in the process.
There was absolutely NO evidence to support that there would be major problems with the breeding or I wouldn't have done it. I would hate to see GC's reaction if they were to really check into dog pedigrees!! Most dog pedigrees are related breedings. When you come from this kind of background some of the related glider breedings aren't a problem.
Since there wasn't any proven info to go on, I decided to share what results I got with anyone that might be interested.
Again, I am just sharing this info. There are some that may agree and some that won't and thats fine. We each have a right to our opinions without being bashed by others. If you don't agree, thats fine. No one is asking you to do it. However, I have chosen to and that is my opinion.
Anytime this leu to leu subject comes up it always leads to the ongoing differences of opinions. There will in most everything always be those who think something is horrible and others that don't. Why can't we just accept each others opinions and go our own way? Bad-mouthing people etc never/is was a solution or a good way to go. Just agree to disagree and let it go.


Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders



Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: Guerita135] #701561
12/29/08 09:48 PM
12/29/08 09:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 343
Northern VA.
GliderGuyVA Offline
Glider Lover
GliderGuyVA  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 343
Northern VA.
Hello I am GliderGuyVA's wife and I hope I don't "muddy" the waters with my post. He has asked me to write about some basic genetic information.

First of all breeding and genetic information is inferred from the phenotype or "physical" expression of a particular animal - in this case sugar gliders. But we could just as easily be talking about cows, horses or dogs - the basic principles should be the same.

We do make some assumptions about the "leu" phenotype -
1. It is recessesive - meaning that a glider who appears white can only be white if that gliders carries two copies of the "leu" gene - one from each parent. If a white glider is mated to a grey glider and a white baby is born, then the grey glider must have carried the leu gene - there is no other way since we assume the leu gene is recessive.

2. We make the assumption that the leu gene is a mutation. Meaning that something happened to the genetic sequence of a particular population or an individual in the population that changed the fur color from grey (desirable in a wild situation) to white (undesirable in a wild situation) in the wild pretty much all white gliders born would not survive to reproduce and pass their genetic material on to future generations because they would have been eaten by predators.

3. We make the assumption that the Leu gene, being an undesirable genetic mutation in the wild situation, could be linked to other undesirable genetic mutations - also recessive. This has not been proven or disproven to my knowledge. This is inferred from other species where the "white" phenotype has been linked to other problems (deafness, weaken immune systems, etc....)

So what happens when we make assumptions??? you know....

But basic genetics indicates that each and every phenotypically white Leu must have inherited that gene from some original descendant - or a very limited population of descendents that survived long enough to breed. They must have two copies (one from each parent) in order for that glider to be "white" therefore somewhere, perhaps many generations back those gliders must be related.

The real question is this - is the Leu gene linked to other "bad" genes. We just don't know. But we must remember it is a "bad" gene if trying to survive in the wild. With outbreeding the hope is that any "bad" genes potentially linked to the original leu will be selected out leaving only the leu trait alone - and then it would be safe to breed those white descendants. How many generations would that take? I don't know - and I don't think anyone can answer that question - because we don't know the answer to the fundamental question of does this color variant gene have other bad things associated with it?

Now as far as breeding close relatives - brother/sister, etc. regardless of color you are increasing the risk of pairing previously unexpressed bad genes that were recessive. Close relatives by definition have similar genetic material and would possibly carry similar recessive genes. Are all recessive genes bad - not necessarily. But nature has a way of making sure the "fittess" survive so those genes expressed by natural breeding through the test of time have shown to cause the greatest survival of the species.

The best examples of responsible breeding would be to look at the livestock industry where this has been done for hundreds of years. Many dog breeders do breed relatives in order to obtain certain desirable breed characteristics - is this wrong? Not if those recessive traits are not linked to a gene that can cause unthriftiness of the species. Many "bad" health issues have been bred out of certain breeds like the drastic decrease in the incidence of hip dysplasia in large breed dogs. Responsible breeders have spent the past 20 years certifying their dogs hips as phenotypically normal and only breeding those dogs (even if related) to other dogs with phenotypically good hips. Does this mean the dog is 100% clear of carrying the gene - no, we can't know that until we have the ability to sequence the genome of every parent, just not possible yet.

One thing I have to say to you all is - WOW! Kudo's to you for asking these questions now - before you start to see bad genetic phenotypes associated with breeding. Unlike the golden retriever or boxer world where the breeding occured and then they had to deal with trying to rid the breed of the bad genes associated with the good traits they were breeding for. We will always have genetic mutation and that can and often is a good thing that contributes to the survival of a species - but sometimes nature messes up and the passing on of traits is dictated by survivability. We as humans sometimes interfere with the natural process. Good luck to everyone and best wishes for a wonderul, healthy joey 2009.


Slave to:
My Wife
Four - Dogs
Two - Cat's
Four - Ferrets
Eight plus - Gliders
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: heartlandglider] #701567
12/29/08 09:54 PM
12/29/08 09:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 343
Northern VA.
GliderGuyVA Offline
Glider Lover
GliderGuyVA  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 343
Northern VA.
Originally Posted By: heartlandglider
I have one pair of leus and only a few gliders.I have kept most of their babies and paired them with mosaics. I do have records on these gliders and any babies I have sold. I keep records on my gliders just like my dogs for AKC. All resulting babies from this pair have been leus. If you are interested in anymore info, please feel free to contact me.
My first motivation for breeding leu to leu was because I wanted more white gliders without having to keep paying the $2000-2500 breeders were charging at that time. It was also to be able to put some leus available at prices that anyone that wanted one would be able to afford .
I have had to put my gliders on credit cards and pay on time to pay what some of the prices are. I can't make anyone else change their price, but I can control what price I place mine for. I still am trying to make ALL glider colors more available to anyone that wants them and enjoying my own in the process.
There was absolutely NO evidence to support that there would be major problems with the breeding or I wouldn't have done it. I would hate to see GC's reaction if they were to really check into dog pedigrees!! Most dog pedigrees are related breedings. When you come from this kind of background some of the related glider breedings aren't a problem.
Since there wasn't any proven info to go on, I decided to share what results I got with anyone that might be interested.
Again, I am just sharing this info. There are some that may agree and some that won't and thats fine. We each have a right to our opinions without being bashed by others. If you don't agree, thats fine. No one is asking you to do it. However, I have chosen to and that is my opinion.
Anytime this leu to leu subject comes up it always leads to the ongoing differences of opinions. There will in most everything always be those who think something is horrible and others that don't. Why can't we just accept each others opinions and go our own way? Bad-mouthing people etc never/is was a solution or a good way to go. Just agree to disagree and let it go.


Well said. You breed Poms too? We have several and love them to death. What an awesome dog!

Sorry about my wifes long post. I hope it helps. smile


Slave to:
My Wife
Four - Dogs
Two - Cat's
Four - Ferrets
Eight plus - Gliders
Re: Leu to Leu breeding [Re: GliderGuyVA] #701576
12/29/08 10:04 PM
12/29/08 10:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer
heartlandglider  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
Yes I do breed Poms!! No greater breed. I have been selectively breeding for over 20 years. I breed by type first and then pedigree. It really takes a lot of work and years to create a type within your own lines.
I try never to breed two dogs together that have the same undesirable characteristics. The best pairing is two have 2 individuals that compliment each other. Of course, Mother Nature always has the last word. However, based on past offspring in your pedigrees etc a lot of undesirable traits can be bred out. IN breeding two related dogs it seems to really help set in type. The real key is to know when not to breed into the same line. A line has to be crossed out occasionally to bring in the stronger good qualities that your line lacks. Eventually if you keep breeding into your line you also start getting a concentration of the traits you don't want smile
I was very proud as a breeder when someone would say they could always spot a Heartland Pom because of the good types I had established in my dogs. Its the greatest compliment a breeder can be given for all the years, heartbreak, and discouraging times they have endured in achieving this.
Sorry about the ramble on dogs!!


Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders



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