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Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55601
08/27/05 09:44 AM
08/27/05 09:44 AM

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> Happy Birthday ERN!!! My half breed flip, brotha!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55602
08/27/05 09:47 AM
08/27/05 09:47 AM

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I find it hard to believe that we may find coloured glider owners (or anyone, for that matter) who would volunteer their coloured gliders in any clinical study where siblings will be permitted to mate. Sheila? Judie? Ern? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" /> If I owned a leucistic or mosaiic, I certainly wouldn't allow that. I think for the most part we here on GC treat our loved ones as loved ones before lab subjects. This is why it's not feasible, convenience and timeline factors aside.

I agree. I always have and still do feel studying the breeding statistics would reveal plenty. I think we should attempt at analyzing the breeding stats first before we attempt at breeding siblings, particularly for the sake of both the genetic variation (and hence biological vigor) and the ever broadening bloodpool of the rarer phenotypes (i.e. leucistic, mosaiic, etc.). In this way, we're putting the well-being of the gliders before the need for research, and it's why going forth with establishing "clones" at the present wouldn't be feasible. With the rarer phenotypes we currently have a limited amount of lines to protect and keep healthy.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55603
08/27/05 02:57 PM
08/27/05 02:57 PM

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Inbreeding of this caliber is the means by which research is done. The diet research programs would have used these "clones" were they available I am sure. That would have eliminated the genetic variences. Any meaningful medical research that might be done in terms of drugs would need to be done on "clones". This is the way research is done. The drugs that you take now are the result of such research efforts. I am not saying that this should be done on the leucistic as I believe that this is a one gene recessive because of the way the lines have been bred and their resulting offspring. WFB, Cinnamon, and Wild Type would probably be the first to be used. None of the gliders from this programs would be allowed to pass their genes to outside lines due to a strict programs of spay and neuter unless there is a sutable reson which I will get to later. Therefore there is no reason to fear the introduction of these "pure lines" into already exhisting lines. The removal of 2 individuals from a color variation would have little effect on the overall fitness of that populations genetic diversity as a whole, besides even for a color like albinism where there are very few individuals removing two would not cause much harm because these individuals would already be too closely related to other individuals to use. Getting ahold of these variations would not likly be a problem either. Also with this style of a breeding programs it is very very likly that new unknown lines of leucistic, albino, WFB , or White Tip would become known. In that case a decision might be made not to neuter or spay to allow that line to be used to stregnthen the remainder of exhisting lines especially leucistic, albino, white on white, and cremello.

I believe that this program would vastly improve our knowledge of sugar glider care. This will be done eventually because it is such a necessity; it might not be done on the sugar glider glider but scientists are attempting to look at the marsupial model and it would be in the gliders best interests as a species to encourge research.

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55604
08/27/05 04:01 PM
08/27/05 04:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
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Nope, not my gliders. I have worked too hard to keep them sound by selective "line breeding".

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55605
08/27/05 04:19 PM
08/27/05 04:19 PM

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I see what you're saying Chris, but I'm going for the warm loving house method of research and staying away from the cold sterile laboratory style. I'm sure it would yield results, but I highly doubt that you'll find anyone here that is game for such a method. We have to stick with what breeders/pet owners are comfortable with.

So, back to what we propose we should start working on <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Afer this weekend I'll work on a little photo collage and start talking to some people and see if I can get some more photographic pedigrees assembled and see if we can start something up. We'll possible look at variations like wf cinnamon, different degrees of wf blonde, cinnamon, etc.
I'm sure this will take some time, but it's something <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55606
08/27/05 07:47 PM
08/27/05 07:47 PM

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I ust wanted to clear up the option I was refering to in my last post as having value.

Your option is the more humane way but involves a lot of variables that cannot be resolved. What is needed is a way to grade the color of the glider accuratly so that each breeder knows what they are looking at. To do this I recommend using some type of standard. What I would use would be paint color swatches that you pick up at a paint store. We would all use the same to grade the coloration of the glider. We should then numerically lable each one according to a standard and this way we can always use the same colors when talking about a particular animal. This is more reliable than a photograph because it offers a lot of similar shades of colors and it would not be effected by lighting conditions of the photograph.

The paint swatches would be used to give the animal a numeric score for every color present on the animal. A normal would have three colors, the dark accents and stripe. The grey area, and the underside color. Ideally the animal should be scored as a joey then at 8 months oop then finally at 2 years oop.

After grades are given to fur color and shading we should then look at the patter. We should measure the length of the dorsal stripe from standard points. We should note any white tip and measure a length. We Should aslo measure the thickness of the stripe from the eyes to nose. We should note any patterns and fully describe them in relation to the wild type variation.

Then once fur color and patterns are noted we then should look at the body type. We should note the eye color, weight, tail length, body length, body girth, eye to nose tip length, and finally numbers of all digets: at OOP, 8moths OOP, and 2 years OOP.

If you wish to do a study you need to throughly describe your subject and tract this progression through the generations this might give a clue to wether or not a particular allel associated with a color variation also effects the body type.

Finnally a complete medical history will need to be done and kept, as well as breeding data such as: Date of breedings, number of joeys produced, sex of joeys, ID numbers of joeys, temperment, time spent with joeys, injuries during breedings, aggressivness durning breedings, acceptance of mate during breeding ect...

All this information would be needed to track and fully document the trats effects upon generations of gliders.

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55607
08/27/05 08:25 PM
08/27/05 08:25 PM

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Woah! I feel that is highly involved and certainly would be a neat idea, however...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
What I would use would be paint color swatches that you pick up at a paint store. We would all use the same to grade the coloration of the glider. We should then numerically lable each one according to a standard and this way we can always use the same colors when talking about a particular animal. This is more reliable than a photograph because it offers a lot of similar shades of colors and it would not be effected by lighting conditions of the photograph.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

There are so many factors that aren't being considered here. Minute colouration details that the above would be designed to measure can be affected by non-genetically inclined factors, like diet. As you know certain diets have a direct affect on the shades of certain colours in gliders (e.g. a super high protein diet or catfood based diet often causes a cream yellowing of the underbelly as well as other areas).

Also, scent-marking can cause the above to occur as well, and of course we won't be able to control the degree to which our gliders scent mark. Other factors that affect scent-marking (which in turn affect immediate colour) are frequency of cage cleanings, number of gliders housed in a single enclosure, protein/seasonal factors, gender (this is a big one), age, glider personality even, but I highly doubt we'd be able to control such things even in a controlled laboratory environment, hence such a close gradation of shades may prove to be difficult.

Also, if we're keeping track and recording specific shades, what about gliders where there is a transition of various shades? Would that mean we would have to record the lightest and darkest colour on their body and indicate that the glider is also all colours in between? What if a lion glider has next to 30 different shades of beiges, browns, reds, and yellows on their body, for instance? How would there be a specification system of what shades begin where?

However, having said that, I do feel, Ushuaia, that the above could prove ideal for purposes of a registry, and specifically in respect to conformity standardization (and also for our purposes here, i.e. empirical analysis of breeding data), when dealing with some of the more difficult to standardize phenotypes like Black Beauty, Cinnamon, Lion, Buttercream, etc.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

The paint swatches would be used to give the animal a numeric score for every color present on the animal. A normal would have three colors, the dark accents and stripe. The grey area, and the underside color. Ideally the animal should be scored as a joey then at 8 months oop then finally at 2 years oop.

After grades are given to fur color and shading we should then look at the patter. We should measure the length of the dorsal stripe from standard points. We should note any white tip and measure a length. We Should aslo measure the thickness of the stripe from the eyes to nose. We should note any patterns and fully describe them in relation to the wild type variation.

Then once fur color and patterns are noted we then should look at the body type. We should note the eye color, weight, tail length, body length, body girth, eye to nose tip length, and finally numbers of all digets: at OOP, 8moths OOP, and 2 years OOP.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

As I mentioned, I think with the more defined phenotypes (as opposed to the rather shady - no pun intended - ones like Black beauty) like wf, leucistic, and mosaiic the traits are readily apparent, and wouldn't require such a close documentation system of sorts. It's not like we're establishing glider conformity standards. One can tell a leucistic from a grey, or a wf from a grey with the naked eye, without any measurement system.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55608
08/27/05 10:03 PM
08/27/05 10:03 PM

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That is why it is important to document the coloration at 3 different stages. The coloration will be most pure and untained at 2 weeks OOP. Without such documentations as I have listed above we might not know if there are changes occuring in the shades of the gliders over time. Leucistic is not so much of a problem neither is albino because they are defects that remove color and shades altogether. However this might be invaluable for say blonde, WF, WFB, White Tip, Cinnamon, White on White, Black beauties, ect... We cannot contole for most factors which is why we must document as much data as possible to account for all variences over time and determin if a change of 2 points using a numerical color system in the dirrection of red is signifigant for a cinnamon. It also allows breeders to stregnthen or maintain their lines at a desired color or shade. All variences cannot be eliminated because you are not wiling to develope a "pure line" and determin the effects of various stimulus and diets on phenotypes therefore the next best thing is to document every possible varience as minutely and uniformly as possible and to evaluate the importance of these observations by examining the data collected.

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55609
08/27/05 10:19 PM
08/27/05 10:19 PM

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Ok so I had fairly lengthy response and I have no idea what happened but it went to the computer black hole.

So I'll make this one short Ushuaia, I can understand you scietific approach but we are going to approach this the research way from what I gather. Take the information that is out there and gather what we need to make FACTS out of the information that it there.

You seem to have some knowledge or took some classes regading genetics, so if you would like to approach this level headed and open minded please feel free to help us and everyone else out there that would benefit from this information.

That being said, I started on the WFB Genetics page from one of my gliders and I believe if my memory serves me correct it goes back 6 generations. So please go here WFB Genetics and see what we currently know.

If anyone out there has more information regading offspring from the lineages that are on there please email them to []info@wisconsinglider.com[/] in the subject line please just put WFB. Also as much info that you know would be great.

[:"red"] Anyone out there with WFB or Hets please email us your info so we can get this started. [/]

Please remember the great phrase "There's more than one way to skin a cat" , I'm just glad that we are going to start somewhere and soon put and end to the maybes.

M

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55610
08/27/05 10:25 PM
08/27/05 10:25 PM

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i give props to all you science buffs that can understand all that genetic stuff.. i agree we need a registry too but i also think peopple go crazy with colors and have to find a new one everytime they have a joey... as for helping you with genetics.. you guys all just made me more confused than i was to begin with

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55611
08/27/05 11:20 PM
08/27/05 11:20 PM

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[:"blue"]Oh, no Tonia! That's the total opposite of what I want to accomplish. Feel free to ask for clarification on anything I posted, in PM if you like.

As far as the inbred lines, I don't want to lose focus here in our PEDIGREE project, but I'd like to put the "gliders as a model organism" idea to bed.

The only organisms where such a strategy is employed are model organisms like mice, rats and fruit flies. These are common and established study creatures that are simple to raise in the lab environment, but establishing those lines took decades of trial and error. They are also used to study general principles of genetics, not so much the genetics of a particular series of traits in a single species.

In addition, there are many animals for which such an approach is morally or logistically unfeasable. For example, we know a lot about the genetics of humans, bears, sharks, dolphins, aligators, swans and cheetahs, as well as animals artificially selected by humans for domestic purposes (dogs/cats/horses/cows/sheep/pigs/snakes/parrots) none of which are model organisms for which there are clonal lines. Most of the heritability/genetic information we have on these groups was gathered through pedigrees and observation, and more recently in-vitro DNA/molecular analysis.

While there is controlled breeding in the domesticated groups, it was not acheived by the type of rigourous method you're suggesting Chris, nor for those reasons. While I of course see the value in what you're saying, I do not believe it to be advisable in a pet/animal of this complexity and level of emotional power.

We have to work with the SAME kinds of data we can get from humans (pedigrees, blood/DNA tests, observation) in order to move forward. We do have the advantage that gliders have short generation times (up to 3 reproductive events in 1 year, as opposed to 20 years in humans) and can be paired (to some degree) according to the desire of the owner, both factors NOT true of studying human pedigrees.

Yay for our holistic color trait pedigree project! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55612
08/28/05 12:00 AM
08/28/05 12:00 AM

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I agree Marla ask as the questions you can if I dont have the answer I will pull out the books and get the answer.

M

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55613
08/28/05 12:19 AM
08/28/05 12:19 AM

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We cannot approach this in anyway other than scientifically. I would be willing to participate in reviewing the pedigree information and discussing it in a scientific manner. A lot of information can be gleamed this way. However we should do more than just collect the preexhising data we should activly seek to get new data in a manner that will serve the greatest good. We should encourage crossing colors to determin dominance and recesstivity amoung color groups. We need to be proactive in getting new pedigrees. My experience with the leucistic pedigree was that I had to call the breeders every 3-4 months myself and update it. Had I not have done so I would not have had 1/2 the information that is in there now. We also need to keep in mind that there needs to be softwear in place to imput the data into and a reliable means of accessing it. More than genetics and biology people are going to be needed.

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55614
08/28/05 12:27 AM
08/28/05 12:27 AM

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I see a major flaw with the pedigree you have for the WFB You are only including the lineage of one glider. You need to make it comprehensive to be useful not just listing the WFB X WFB that produced a WFB. You need to list ALL of the normal colored gliders as well. The only way to get this information is to work the phones and call the breeders. I will talk to breeders that I know that have had WFB lines and work to develop a more useful pedigree.

Ushuaia

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55615
08/28/05 12:49 AM
08/28/05 12:49 AM

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Once again as I said its a start, please do not continue to point out what I and every else already knows this is going to be a long road ahead.

Once again its a start yes I can call Judie, Sheila, Lisa and Priscilla but I havent. If all your going to do is point out what hasn't been done and don't have anything to add or be LEVEL HEADED please do not participate I will be more than happy to work with Mikey, Ern, Marla and anyone else who approaches this as a project in its infancy stage.

I'm not some kid who just thought hey lets put up the lineage of my glider and thats all the information we need. I have already received 7 emails with individual wanting to help. I do not need someone holding my hand telling me what I already know I need a lot more information anyone can see that.

So please as I said before unless you have something constructive to say that will help with this project, thats when you should post a reply rather than point out what you think I forgot.

Said my peace and I feel much better now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tantrum.gif" alt="" />

M

Keep the emails coming folks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55616
08/28/05 02:15 AM
08/28/05 02:15 AM

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OH NO! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Let's please not have this thread closed. If it ends up getting sour we'll need to open up a new one (which may turn out to be a better idea anyway because we're starting to drift rather <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> , namely our little GC genetics project).

Please let's put all personal issues aside and focus on the good of the gliders and the community. Perhaps Ern wouldn't mind this thread being closed since his question was answered already (Ern?). A new thread needs to be opened, analyzing the breeding data so we can finally put an end to the genetic myths and attempt at putting a finger on the genetics of some of the phenotypes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55617
08/28/05 01:28 PM
08/28/05 01:28 PM

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Yes, I agree that I would love to see this continue in a positive direction. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think everyone has stated some very valid points and many good ideas have been brought up. I think a problem is that we all need to keep in mind that everyone comes from extremely different backgrounds, but we're all educated adults with a similar goal. I think a problem that continues to bring down the forward momentum of most every productive debate is the way in which some people choose to express their ideas. We're all hoping to work on this TOGETHER, so when propositions on process or methods are raised, please do so as if you are talking to a respected peer, not someone who'd be lucky to have you around. Just my two cents...everyone has something good to contribute!
We all have different ways in which we could contribute to a project of this sort, and I'd like it if everyone could feel good about working on something. In essence this would be sort of a "registry" and I know there have been many attempts to do so, I've heard it all before, I've been around.

I do agree that a way to grade colors and shades would need to be developed. It would be nice if we could actually get the participation of a number of people to give their opinions, not just breeders cuz ordinary people see color too! We could examine different aspects of color, maybe note what's exceptional, maybe discuss what we see? I also do believe that all gliders normal and colored need to be included in a pedigree/lineage. They do throw their genes in the mix and can affect color just as much. I'd imagine that WisconsinGlider has given that some thought, eh? Also, siblings from the same parents would be nice to have the info on because you can see variation between siblings too.

Lol, yeah, this could be a HUGE project that would take some time.......well, LOTS of time! We really need to get the cooperation of as many people as we can that are working with color lines or plan on it. It would also be nice to eventually assemble a panel of people who could come and give their two cents on a glider's coloring if we do some kind of grading system. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55618
08/28/05 01:56 PM
08/28/05 01:56 PM

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I was talking in a respectful manner. I am trying to help you with this in a mnner that would benifit everyone. Constructive critisim was what I was giving and I am sorry you took it otherwise. I think a new thread would be a great idea. I have called judie and examined Shelia's pedigree I will concentrate oin these two breeders and then post the pedigree on the new thread.

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55619
08/28/05 02:19 PM
08/28/05 02:19 PM

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Well if you wouldnt mind Ushuaia since I already have email out to the big breeders can you email me the info so that I may add it to the pedigree that is already started.

As I will be updating it most likely tonight with new information that I have received.

Thanks

Yes I would like this to continue in a peaceful manner..

M

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55620
08/28/05 03:35 PM
08/28/05 03:35 PM

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okI updated the genetics page a bit with the infor that I have received I still have over a dozen emails so if you do not see your information just give me some time.

Hey Ernie go on ahead and send me what you have and I'll start on the buttercream page.

M


White Face Blonde Genetics Page

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55621
08/28/05 08:13 PM
08/28/05 08:13 PM

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I will email you the leucistic geneology if you want as well but a warning, The file is so big that I have to break the file into several emails. I am sending it out via outlook express. It will be 78 emails in total. I want to hold off on sending out the WFB info until I have gotten a chance to talk to Shelia and finish talking with Judie Hausmann. Please let me know when you want me to send the large file. You will need to open the leucistic geneology in Microsoft paint.

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55622
08/28/05 09:24 PM
08/28/05 09:24 PM

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do you have an ftp(file transfer protocol)program?

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55623
08/28/05 10:53 PM
08/28/05 10:53 PM

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yep sure do. Send the email to []glidergenetics@wi.rr.com[/] I'm trying to get into my control panel and when I do I will give you the FTP Stuff.

M

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55624
08/28/05 11:04 PM
08/28/05 11:04 PM

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Hey Big Ern the one thing that really connected us I put to sleep today. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />:

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />: My beloved 6 1/2 year old American Bulldog had Stage 4 Lymphosarcoma and I couldnt see her in pain anymore, so after 5 months of chemo its was time.

Sorry for the off topic comments

M

Oh Ushuaia [Re: ] #55625
08/30/05 01:18 AM
08/30/05 01:18 AM

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Got the emails now what???

I'm confused what do I do with it, or better yet how do I put it back together.

M

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55626
08/30/05 02:41 AM
08/30/05 02:41 AM

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oh man, that's a serious bummer guys....
I send my hearfelt condolances <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />
That had to be hard <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />
I didn't know you had and AB, they're the best breed in my opinion, hands down. Sorry about your girl <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/upset.gif" alt="" />

I sent you all an email about a project I'm embarking on that will probably involve each of you to some degree if you wish. It'll be a ton of work, but it should be great with proper planning. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55627
08/30/05 08:09 AM
08/30/05 08:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
oh that is so sad. I am getting ready to go on vacation. I do need to update my genetics lineage found on my "Meet the Family" Page. You will be welcome to use anything off of it.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55628
08/30/05 10:34 AM
08/30/05 10:34 AM

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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> Sheila!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55629
08/30/05 11:16 AM
08/30/05 11:16 AM

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Ern, I got your e-mail. Though I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to helping your project right now, I will be more than happy to help as much as I can. If I scrounge around, I should be able pull up the info I had collect from when I tried to start a registry myself, if you are interested in it...

Re: cinnamon recessive? whitefaced codominant? [Re: ] #55630
08/30/05 11:22 AM
08/30/05 11:22 AM

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Yeah that'd be cool.
I need to get a domain name decided on and start setting up the website then I'll start hitting you guys up for info!
I'm also gonna start a post relating specifically to this project. People are expressing good thoughts about it so I feel good about probing the general public about it, lol.

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