I honestly don't remember. I don't think so, though. They did take him in the back to do it, so I didn't have to watch. He never acted like it bothered him.
You can call me if you want to. I have a hard time talking about it, because it hurts me, but I will tell you everything I can. If I can help you, that will help make it hurt less, I think.
What color was the fluid they drained from her? Was it pus like? Or more like water? Did they even tell you? If it was pus, she has an infection, and that may very well be curable. Just a thought.

I can only imagine how hard it is to talk about. Thank you for talking with me about it. I had a difficult time talking about it this morning without crying.
I went in the back when she was sedated because the vet wanted me to feel the lump that he believes is an enlarged organ. They showed me what they took out and it was more like water. It was yellow and I'm pretty sure they didn't think it was urine.
I am going to hear back from him this afternoon after he consults with the 2 other vets so we will see. I peaked in at the girls before I went to work this morning and it looked like Spices belly is getting larger again. I wanted to take them to work with me, but I have a long day ahead of me and they don't rest well while at work. I will post an update after I talk to the vet this afternoon.

I just got done spending some time with sugar and spice. They enjoyed climbing all over me as well as other things! LOL. Spice is sweet as always, she does appear to be a little nervous but who wouldn't be after going to the vet. She did eventually come out of her pouch for some play time with me. I just loved on her and rubber her behind her ears (her favorite spot). Spice appears absolutely normal! She Chirping for treats, perky ears, pink nose..... all except her belly is swollen again. She was even swinging in her coconut in the cage having fun! She doesn't appear to be in any pain. I was touching her belly and ribs (which are pretty swollen, but not as hard as yesterday) and it didn't seem to bother her.
So the vet and I played phone tag today. He had a hard time getting the 2 vets on the phone today. The one that is 40 minutes from me is out until tomorrow and the one that is 3.5 hours away finally called back. The assistant said that they have the equipment to do an ultrasound to see exactly what organ is enlarged and carry out any procedures necissary, but it could be anywhere from $500-1200....
I know that I have gotten the advice to just let Spice be and let nature take her course because abdominal surgery is just too much for gliders and unfortunately that is what I am considering at this point. I don't want to put Spice through an unneccessary pain when this is hard enough for her.
I'm super worried about how Sugar is going to handle eveything. I put an extra pouch in the cage with lots of blankies everywhere to get Spice's sent on them. Just so I have some extra for Sugar later.
Linda and Shawna- thank you for listening to me and writing me back so much. I know it isn't easy when you have lost a terrific suggie yourself.
Thank you to everyone who has offered advice and support. I am still so unsure about everything right now... just that I need to snuggle with my girls as much as possible!

Colleen, if they can feel an organ that is swollen, it is her liver. Don't spend the money on an ultrasound. Just...don't. The offer to call me is always open.

I know this must be hard. We are thinking about you

Colleen, do what you have to do and what you feel in your heart. If it's any consolation to you at all, I opted to not have any surgery for our Izzy. While a different circumstance, our gliders are kind of in the same pod. (pea pod instead of boat here) Izzy is also playing, eating and acting normal so I am going to pray and love her with everything I have for what time she has whether it be a day or years. We simply don't know. Our vet does not want to do surgery on her due to the high risk.

No matter what you choose to do, know that it is the right choice. I for one stand behind you 110%. You are an awesome suggie mommy to your babies. They know you love them and that is what matters most.

I am so sorry to hear about everything you and Spice are going through.

Colleen, forgot to tell you earlier that the color you described is normal for the first draw. The second will be clearer, and so on.
Just love on her. She loves you, and knows how much you love her. I know this sounds silly, but explain things to her, it may help you feel better.

The vet is right-surgery is most often fatal, the reason being gliders bleed at the same rate as anything else, but have much less blood to lose and the vet simply can't work fast enough. It takes X amount of time to remove an organ, then clamp off all the vessels, then close up, etc. I've been through it and photographed it. My guy didn't make it 3 hours after-but although he may have lived a few more days, he was going to die without it-I tried.

The pics seem to be working in this thread of Chronos' surgery-WARNING: they are graphic. Don't look if you don't like blood. It will give a very real idea of what an abdominal operation on a glider is like. I never saw ANYONE move that fast to close off everything...and it still wasn't fast enough:

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/269296/fpart/1

Edit: go in order of the numbers...not the way they posted...I couldn't get them to post in the right order.

Jen- thank you so much for the link to Chronos' surgery. I can only imagine how hard it was to be in there and take those pictures. I couldn't help but cry when I saw Spice sedated.
They pretty much sealed the deal- there is no way I am going to put her through surgery... especially with the chance of her not making it so great! I didn't get to bring her with me to work today, I was running late and she was a bit crabby when I peaked in to give them their morning treat. The crabbiness scared me a bit cause usually she isn't so grumpy in the morning cause she is still up. I have to assess the situation more when I get home.
I just want to get home and spend some more time with her.

Shawna- I'm sure that I will be taking you up on your offer for a phone call soon. Especially when things get worse.

I'm not saying your glider won't survive surgery. It can depend on what's wrong, how deep they have to go, etc.

One Off Topic note: is this not senseless in the extreme to avoid joeys? Looking at the pics, can anyone honestly say a spay is worth it on a female glider? Any vet that says it is is out only for the money, IMO.

My vet gave Chronos a little better odds than yours gave you-bottom line is it was so bad he was going to die-this gave him a slim chance as opposed to none, and it was my call. Faced with the exact same circumstance: blocked gall bladder and badly diseased liver (we thought until we got in there he had SOME usable liver tissue) would I do it again? Probably not. I probably should have stopped after the ultrasound when the extent of things were, while they looked really bad and his gall bladder was the size of a 10 lb cat's and about to rupture (which would kill him), looked YET like MAYBE there was some hope. They couldn't figure out how he was alive, let alone happy acting and playful but for lack of appetite and jaundice, with NOTHING but nodules for a liver-no usable tissue at all. He was between 4 & 5 years old.

I would say that the ultrasound could give you a better idea of what's going on in there-better pinpoint the problem. So may a blood chemistry, and urinalysis. Chronos' problem showed up on all 3, some in urine, more in blood, most in ultrasound, but the true extent was not until the vet physically could SEE the problem. There ARE drugs-some to remove excess fluid for example, that could be tried depending on what's going on in there, which is hard to say without a "look see" on the inside-ultrasound revealed what Xray did not-Xray does not "see" soft tissue well if at all. We could narrow it between liver and gall bladder because of the jaundice and bilirubin levels in blood and urine, the liver enzymes in the blood, but had to 'see' what was going on.

Abdominal surgery on a glider is a last ditch effort, in my opinion. If you can pinpoint closer what's wrong, drugs might give you more time with her, make her more comfortable later-Chronos was on a milk thistle extract to help his liver function his last month, forcefeedings to pull his weight up so he could have the bloodwork and ultrasound, antibiotics. What kills me is Chronos was in pain when he died despite the painkillers.

My Gim came to me with liver failure and made it 2 years-he was not treated, per se, but not as severe until the very end. We let him go. He basically just faded away, apart from typical signs of a dying glider-but nothing to indicate he hurt.

So it's your call on where to go, or what to do if anything-there are still options short of surgery. Thoughts and prayers with you and your girl.
-And they were some of the most difficult pics I've ever taken-along with any injured/smed glider I don't forget. I see them in my mind alot, even without them in front of me. And there are days all I've seen really bothers me. But it's needed to learn, so I take them/look at them.

Good news is that I got home from work early and Spice didn't crab when I went near the cage to talk to her. The bad news is that I have the flu which is why I am home....
Can my girls catch what I have?
I hope not cause I need to spend time with Spice...

If it's viral it's not likely they can get it-just use good hygiene, and wash hands/clean clothes, avoid coughing or sneezing on them. Bacteria they could get-but again, same thing, or one of those paper dust masks from walmart would ensure it didn't go further than you.

I felt so guilty last night because I was so sick I couldn't get out of bed to spend time with my girls. But I took today off of work and they have been cuddled in their pouch next to me all day. There doesn't seem to be any change in Spice. I guess we are just playing the waiting game now. My poor baby.
Thanks again everyone.

Oh Colleen, I am so sorry you are in this situation of decision. I have never been in it with my suggies, but I have with my dog, Cassie. She was my baby, and it was a horrid thing to have to decide. (In the end we did decide for her to be put to sleep... but sometimes I still wonder if we should have) My prayers are with you and little Spice... AND Sugar!

Also, Jen, I can not imagine being brave enough to photograph that surgery. WOW.

I'm so sorry you are going through this with your baby! I am in Newport News, and Dr Brinker is who I use, he is awesome and I trust him 100%. He stayed up all night once to try to help me save a rejected joey (the joey unfortunately did not make it, but not for lack of trying). Praying for you and your baby!

Jen (xfilefan)- I didn't see that you last posted me Thursday until this morning! Sorry, it must have been the fever. I know you didn't mean that she wouldn't survive surgery, I just feel that it isn't the best route for Spice, especially if it is her liver. I appreciate all of your advice and experience that you have shared with me.

FaesMomma- you just gave me more of a piece of mind... Dr. Brinker is who is seeing Spice and who will now always see my suggies.

Spice is getting along just fine. Still doesn't appear to be in any pain or discomfort. She was just up running around on me stealing mealies and is now cuddling with Sugar. Aside from the swollen belly, she is acting just fine. I'm going to check with the vet on Monday about getting the fluid drained again and see what he has to say.
Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers

How are things going today?

Spice is still doing alright. Her tummy is still swollen, but there is still no change in her disposition or eating habits! She still stealing all the treats she can from Sugar and loving all the attention from me. They are laying in my lap as I type this message. I would be bringing them with me to work but it has been pretty cold out and I don't like bringing them out in this weather. So it's still a waiting game....

Thank you for the update! Always keeping her in my thoughts and prayers.

I'm so upset! Spice was all happy and fine last night and even this morning. I went to play for a bit before I went to work and she climbed right out onto me and was begging for treats. Well, I got home a little bit ago and went to check on my girls. Spice will barely even eat a mealie. It looks like her belly got so much bigger while I was gone today. All she wants to do is sleep..... I guess the day I'm dreading is about to come...

Have you had her belly drained again? That fluid builds up pretty quickly, and probably hurts.

I did once, but it came back and is bigger than before....

Yeah, it is going to keep coming back. We had to drain Tucks every other day. He would have lots of fluid in there. I know it's hard. You are the only one who can make this choice, and you have my support either way. But, you have to get that drained if you are going to try and keep her longer.

Give her lots of love and attention. They know when they are loved, and that is the best gift you can give her right now. It's okay to be scared.

She is in my lap right now all sleepy in her pouch. I put Sugar back because she was getting all crazy hyper ready to play...
Just thought I should spend more time cuddling with her while I can.
I'm getting her to the vet as soon as I can tomorrow, but she really isn't eating. What can I do to get some food into her?

Offer her favorites. When they stop eating, and especially in her case, the favorites, and what ever they will eat is good.
Please keep us posted.

I kept waking up and checking on my baby last night and the last time I checked on her she was curled up in the corner of the cage floor. I am taking her in @ 8 to be put to sleep then headed to work. It's sad that when I left for work yesterday she was acting fine begging for treats but when I get home she won't eat or leave her pouch. I'm so sad right now..

Oh hun, I'm so very sorry I know how difficult this decision was for you. I agonized over it when it was Pika and Cricky's times. Lots of hugs and prayers coming your way today