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Lumpy Jaw #16086
12/30/03 04:22 PM
12/30/03 04:22 PM

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[:"CC6699"] Okay, I tell new people about the risk of Lumpy Jaw, but I just realized something. I have only heard of one case of Lumpy Jaw? I know there are plenty of people that use pelleted food and cat food, I had 2 rescues come in, Bandit who lived 2 and a half years on pelleted eucalyptus and gerbil food, and Brandie, who was brought up on cat food and pellets, and neither of them have Lumpy Jaw. I know that not every glider who eats pelleted food will get Lumpy Jaw, but what other known cases are out there? Also, is there any kind of proof that shows hard foods and pellets cause Lumpy Jaw?

I am just asking, because I have been answering people the same way everyone else does, but I have never actually had any proof. Thanks! [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16087
12/30/03 05:53 PM
12/30/03 05:53 PM

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I don't know if this will put your doubts to rest and I am sure someone will have more information than I do but here is what I have.

The Gross Morbid Anatomy of Diseases of Animals
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Necrotic stomatitis
Necrotic stomatitis a/w Fusobacterium, Bacteroides, Actinomyces, others
Very common in macropods, aspiration pneumonia is fatal sequel.
"lumpy jaw"
Sporadic cases seen in zoo perrisodactylids and artiodactylids
One outbreak in a colony of prairie dogs

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Macropods are marsupials such as kangaroos, wallabies, bettongs, pademelon and potoroos.

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16088
12/30/03 05:58 PM
12/30/03 05:58 PM

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[:"CC6699"] Thanks Candice, for the info! Okay, so, Lumpy Jaw is an actual disease, but how did we come to the conclusion that hard pelleted food is the cause? [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16089
12/30/03 06:00 PM
12/30/03 06:00 PM

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I know pellets are the cause of lumpy jaw in rabbits.

Last edited by Candiflip; 12/30/03 06:01 PM.
Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16090
12/30/03 06:17 PM
12/30/03 06:17 PM

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[:"CC6699"]Really? I didn't know that. But that is weird, a rabbits diet consists of mainly pelleted food, with hay and oats daily, alfalfa once a week, but a rabbit is not a marsupial, I believe they are part of the rodent family? Which most rodent's diets are consisted of pelleted food and their jaws are made for eating diets like these?

So how can we say that Lumpy Jaw is caused in Marsupials because they ARENT supposed to eat pelleted food, meanwhile the disease is found in Rabbits who ARE supposed to eat pelleted food? [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16091
12/30/03 06:45 PM
12/30/03 06:45 PM

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The article I read about lumpy jaw and rabbits must of been wrong or outdated because my vet told me that a rabbit can not get lumpy jaw. They can only get abscesses and cysts in the mouth.

Sorry to have confused or upset you!

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16092
12/30/03 06:47 PM
12/30/03 06:47 PM

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[:"CC6699"]lol no, you havent upset me, I am just asking questions as they pop into my head <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16093
12/30/03 06:56 PM
12/30/03 06:56 PM

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[:"CC6699"]But I did look at the definition of Lumpy Jaw, also known as acute Actinomycosis.

"Actinomycosis is a chronic infection, commonly of the face and neck, that produces abscesses and open draining sinuses." http://health.allrefer.com/health/actinomycosis-info.html

So that would mean, if rabbits get abscesses, they can get Lumpy Jaw, wouldn't it? Or is it different because the causes might be different?

I have only seen one or two websites that say rabbits can get lumpy jaw. [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16095
12/30/03 07:13 PM
12/30/03 07:13 PM

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[:"CC6699"]Tom, do you have a link to the glider health site that I can look at, that describes these cases? [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16097
12/30/03 07:53 PM
12/30/03 07:53 PM

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I know that Bourbon has a link and you can read some stories about Lumpy Jaw. Very sad.! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16098
12/30/03 07:53 PM
12/30/03 07:53 PM

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[:"CC6699"]Okay, I have checked out the results I found in the Real Stories section. I know that Lumpy Jaw has to do with an abscess on the jaw which has to be drained. Zoeleeto said something about that, but I believe her case was caused due to a wound, which commonly causes abscesses. Glideroo has a case, but it doesn't state what the Lumpy Jaw was caused from (I realize the post was very sad, I don't mean to bring back any horrible memories, I am sorry if bringing this up does <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ).

If anyone knows of any cases or proof of Lumpy Jaw that has been caused by pelleted food and not wounds or injury, please let me know, this intrigues me! [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16099
12/30/03 07:57 PM
12/30/03 07:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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That is a good question! I have always believed that the dry pelleted food would cause lumpy jaw from what others have posted. Dogs and cats are not the same as gliders, but the pelleted food is supposed to be ideal for cleaning their teeth. Have also heard the pelleted food would cause compaction but do not know if this is true. These things have probably been discussed in the past. Maybe we should do a search and see what others have had to say in previous threads.
Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16100
12/30/03 08:04 PM
12/30/03 08:04 PM

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[:"CC6699"]Charlie, you bring up a good point about teeth cleaning. They need bugs because of their exoskeletons, and they chew on hard tree branches and bark because that is what they do in the wild, so you would think that hard pelleted food wouldn't really be all that much different...

I am going to take a look at Bourbon's site and see what I can find. [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16101
12/30/03 08:24 PM
12/30/03 08:24 PM

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[:"CC6699"]Okay, I just took a look at Bourbon's site, the Real Stories section about Lumps. There aren't any hard pelleted food related lumpy jaw cases in there either. Most of them are injury cases and the ones that don't mention injury, don't mention hard pelleted food and had vets who did not know the causes of the abcsesses. There was one case of swelling due to eating a Ficus. Other than that, most or all abcsesses were drained and the gliders were treated with Baytril, then recovered. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

I have also been doing a search on GC for threads on Lumpy Jaw. I have come across plenty of threads concerning it, but none of which diet has anything to do with. I have even come across threads of gliders being on BML and soft foods and getting Lumpy Jaw, and none of gliders being on a pelleted diet.

[:"red"] Edited -- Okay! I found ONE case of Lumpy Jaw that has to do with pelleted food, and this person's vet said that it was probably due to the pelleted diet the glider was on two years prior to getting the abscess. This is Glideroo's case. [/]

Okay, so now we have one suspected case of Lumpy Jaw from pelleted food.

[:"CC5599"]Do we have any studies, research, or other proof that hard pelleted food causes Lumpy Jaw? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16102
12/30/03 08:53 PM
12/30/03 08:53 PM

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Since it seems you have exhausted GC's supply of information on Lumpy Jaw, have you tried just a web search? Maybe contacting some professional care places and posing the questions you have? Like a Zoo, or a vet who has alot of glider experience and could maybe help you out. Just a thought..

Take care <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16103
12/30/03 08:58 PM
12/30/03 08:58 PM

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[:"CC6699"]I have found some info on it, but I am not just looking for something that simply states "hard pelleted food is bad because it causes Lumpy Jaw", I am looking for proof that it does, I am looking for research, scientific studies, anything like that. I will keep looking on the web to see what I can find, but I figured that since so many of GC mods and members tell people pelleted food is bad because if causes Lumpy Jaw, that you might know where you heard it from or why you believe it. I believed it because everyone here told me, but if everyone was giving out this info just because they heard it? Pelleted diets could have a horrible rep with Lumpy Jaw just because of one case, because of one vet, and now over 6,000 members on one board and many other people passing by, believe it too. I am just saying that it would be nice to see the proof. [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16104
12/30/03 09:03 PM
12/30/03 09:03 PM

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Lumpy Jaw is caused from not natural foods given to marsupials ect, kangaroos, sugar gliders,and other marsupials, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> [:"blue"] [/] kangaroos can get it from yeasty foods, and ones that are in captivity as pets that are not given there natural foods. cats biscuites that are given frequently to sugar gliders can get lumpy jaw, it has been known in australia from the food that is not natural to them as these are very hard and are not there natural food. you must try and stay as close as possible to there natural diet that they would have in the wild, as these little guys do not get cat biscuites in the wild lumpy jaw is mainly found in marsupials. i hope this helps a little...i was a wild life carer in australia for the sick and injured animals

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16105
12/30/03 09:06 PM
12/30/03 09:06 PM

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This is what I have always been told...since gliders naturallly suck and spit their food, swallowing pretty much only the "liquid" from the food....that having to actually crunch down to chew their food can cause blockages in the salivary glands...compaction which in turn leads to abcess or "lumpy jaw". Gliders in the wild do chew branches, but how much do we know of where they actually bite the branch, take a piece in their mouth, and chew it with the intent of eating it? I would think since they are designed to eat the way they do, that they are mainly nibbling at branches in the wild and not actually eating it as we would compare it to eating a hard food. I do not know of any case studies about it tho. Good luck. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16106
12/30/03 09:13 PM
12/30/03 09:13 PM

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[:"CC6699"] Okay, thanks for the help you guys <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Bonzai, the way you described Lumpy Jaw is the exact same thing I heard. Now I am looking that Lisa's site from SunCoast and it says...

"Lumpy jaw is caused by bacteria normally found in the mouths of healthy animals. The bacteria can enter through wounds in the mouth, which can be caused by hard or coarse feed. Lumpy jaw may interfere with the animal's ability to eat; other than the swelling on the jaw, animals may appear healthy. This condition can ultimately lead to spreading of harmful bacteria and even death."

So is it that the hard pelleted foods arent actually clogging salivary glands, but can possibly cut the inside of a gliders mouth, creating a wound to form an abscess?

Kanga, did you see many Lumpy Jaw cases in Australia? Any in gliders? And if so, what were they from?

What confuses me is that if Lumpy Jaw can be caused by pelleted food, how come there arent any documented cases of it? Or how come gliders who are on the BML and other soft diets are getting it with no wounds to be found? Could it be that Lumpy Jaw can not only be caused by wounds, but spark up randomly, no matter what the consistancy of the food is?[/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16107
12/30/03 09:57 PM
12/30/03 09:57 PM

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there is quite a bit of it in our marsupials, but has mainly been caused through giving them the wrong foods as i said before its mainly when humans try to change there diets and give them what they do not usually eat which includes cats biscuites there jaws are not use to these hard treats.... as for branches they actually stip them they do this for there teeth and to get sap. i have seen a few cases but all have mainly been through human interaction in trying to feed them the wrong things. i am going to try and get in touch with a friend of mine down there to get some more information for you guys... its alright to suppliment them a little with other foods now and then but it is best to stick to there natural diet. if i cant get the information tonight i will post it when i get it.in nearly all our cases down home the animals have not survived as it stops them from eating and is very painfull

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16108
12/30/03 10:00 PM
12/30/03 10:00 PM

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[:"CC6699"] Thanks SO much for the info Kanga!! I look forward to hearing more from you! [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16109
12/30/03 10:29 PM
12/30/03 10:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
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Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
My vet is actually the one who told me about Lumpy Jaw, when he questioned my diet choice at our first well vet visit <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />. He also discussed HLP...he's been seeing glider's for 12+ years.

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16110
12/30/03 11:12 PM
12/30/03 11:12 PM

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ok this is what i have so far
Disease filarioid nematode worm, Pelecitus roemeri found in the connective tissue; lumpy jaw caused by bacterium Fusobacterium necrophorum *
Lack of Nutrition particularly in young animals that don't have body reserves
Narawntapu National Park
Though still wild, most animals are used to the presence of humans, Wallabies and other animals can get a severe disease called ‘lumpy jaw’ if fed processed food.
Feeding wildlife
Marsupials Eating processed foods can cause lumpy jaw (bony growths) which can lead to a slow and painful death. ok im going to get more about this tommorrow <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> i have some more info coming.

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16111
12/31/03 12:07 AM
12/31/03 12:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
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WOW...I checked this a few hours ago and there was only one page of posts, now there are 3! I guess glider owners are nocturnal as well. LOL. off the subject, but I thought it was funny.
Megi



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16112
12/31/03 02:09 AM
12/31/03 02:09 AM

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Edited because all that information was copyrighted.

Here is a link to that person website with all the same information,
Glider University Medical Reference

Last edited by Candiflip; 12/31/03 02:40 AM.
Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16113
12/31/03 10:18 AM
12/31/03 10:18 AM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
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Kanga, I am aware of your history in australia, wildlife rehabber was not anywhere close.

now as for the lumpy jaw, I will hunt you down the link for a story from a woman who had recieved her glider due to reoccuring lumpy jaw.
http://www.gliderhealth.com/realstories/illnessdesease%20.html#lumps look for alicia, you can email her if you wish.

yes it is an abcess , yes it may be caused by injury, and yes all the above "except the processed foods", are accurate, including the hard foods.

okay the term "lumpy jaw" is a general term, it is often used because that is the symptoms that show up. they are abscesses, so yes do a search there on abcesses look in face or jaw or chin.

now how lumpy jaw happenes is as Bonsai stated with the hard foods, could they be injuring themselves , yes that is possible, their teeth are used for compression, not for chewing, and with hard foods, .. hmm lets see if I can explain this..

when a glider takes a piece of hard food, let's use dog food, they scrape the hard food with their teeth, the hard pieces are swished around in their mouths to allow the bacteria for the salvory glands to aid in the breaking up of it, then they suck out the moisture.
evidence of their eating habiits can be seen, with everything they eat, the pulp from the chicken baby food in the BML is spit out, if you offer a small piece of cooked chicken, watch them closely while they eat it, you will see them swish it back abd forth in their mouth, then hear them suck to get out the moisture, you will notice what they spit back out is just a dehydrated version of what you gave them.

so now why is the hard foods different than the chicken? well the hard foods are processed with things called "binders", which is used to hold the food together, different companies use different things, Briskys uses clay and product that is very common in pet feeds. now needless to say that through compression and dehydration, the hard foods form a "pasty" substance.. again another experiment

take a pice of dry food, add moistrure to it.. squeeze out the moisture with your fingers, that is what is left, a paste. that paste can clog the salvory glands. can the swishing around also cause an injury, sure, the fact is, it is an infection, the feeding of hard foods, promotes lumpy jaw. not all gliders get it, but the possibility exists at a much higher rate than one is led to believe.

I did have a problem with Baybe a few times with the lumpy jaw, once was because the joey had scratched her on the outside it was evident. it got infected, the swelling was above her jaw on the top part of her face. it had to be lanced and drained, and she was given anti-biotics for the infection. now the other times, it was due to the fact I was offereing her the pet pro happy glider, I spoke with Jim regarding this, each time I gave it to her, she got the lumpy jaw on the underside of her jaw, the swelling extended to the top of her jaw. She is susceptable to it. He informed me to soak the food overnight in the frig before offering it to her. I did that and it was okay, I tried again just to be sure it was the dry food, sure enough, she got it again. the symptoms usually show up in a week or less. I fed the happy glider while I was traveling or as an emergency when I was out, not often and therefore easy for me to see the cause.

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16114
12/31/03 12:17 PM
12/31/03 12:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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I realize that it is difficult to compare sugar gliders to dogs and cats. But I can't help but wonder why the pelleted food does not cause problems with them. It would seem that the rough material would cut the inside of their mouths the same as a sugar glider. Also the presence of clay in the mixture should be a threat for compacting in their salivary glands as well.
Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16115
12/31/03 01:36 PM
12/31/03 01:36 PM

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I think the main thing there is the difference in teeth, in a dog or cat, the teeth are made for ripping and crunching of bones, rending of flesh, etc...a carnivore.

Gliders teeth are made for piercing and compression when they masticate, they are not carnivores, more like omnivores...eating both vegetation and small animals such as lizards and baby birds, whose bones are not that hard as a "meat" animal's would be.

I would also suspect that the saliva in each animal contains some enzyme particular to that animals digestion and salivary needs....

All above is NOT "fact", just logical to me....I may be wrong...it won't be the first time..lol.

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16116
12/31/03 01:44 PM
12/31/03 01:44 PM
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Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
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Ok what about this?? I may be way off here but I am going to throw in something for all to think about concerning lumpy jaw....

If lumpy jaw is because of an abcess, anyone that has ever had one themselves know it USUALLY starts off from a cavity right? well on the diet page with the responses from the australia zoos they say that too much fruit and sweets can cause cavities, well maybe just maybe the lumpy jaw IS caused by an abcess and that would be because our babies have a cavity??? maybe the pellet food and any other thing that is hard just aggravates it just like if we have a toothache, doesnt matter what we eat it still aggravates it? just something that ran across my mind.
Any comments??


Peggy
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Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16117
12/31/03 04:18 PM
12/31/03 04:18 PM

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[:"CC6699"]Peggy, that is a very very good question. I am glad to see you took info from that other thread and brought it here! I have read, that for most lumpy jaw cases, the vet looks for an Abscess under a tooth, but sometimes doesn't find one. Hopefully someone will come along and answer you, I am interested in what is said.

About the sucking and the glands. If it is so easy to get stuff into their salivary glands, how come peices of the hard shells of crickets, mealies, grasshoppers, and other bugs, don't get stuck in there? I know that they eat bugs in the wild, so arent they are used to adapting their mouths to eat the hard shells of these bugs? Also, in the wild, they must catch bigger and tougher bugs than the little dinky crickets we give them in captivity. I definatly know I can hear them chewing on those things, I definatly know I can hear them crunching. And Gliders have something like 40 some odd teeth. Why do they have so many teeth if they werent adapted to eat anything hard?

Bonzai, what you said makes perfect sense, but what about when they rip apart those pinkies? It sure looks like they have flesh tearing abilities to me! *shivers*

And the bones in birds and reptiles, I am sure they are just as hard as pelleted food, what keeps bone from getting stuck in their glands. Doesn't that also show that they ARE adapted to eating tough, hard materials?[/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16118
12/31/03 05:30 PM
12/31/03 05:30 PM

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well, the bones of birds and small reptiles like lizards are hollow, and very brittle and pinky mice are cartilidge, not fully formed, hardened bones...

That's about all I can answer there....lol. The rest an expert will have to help you with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16119
12/31/03 06:31 PM
12/31/03 06:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis
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Serious Glideritis

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Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
From what I have seen of the teeth of the glider...they are jagged so to speak...like a cats.

Tissue can become irritated and inflamed when excesssive plack builds up between the teeth and gums...thus forming pockets for nasty bacteria to grow into an abecess. So, does not necessarily have to be bad teeth in order to get lumpy jay.

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16120
12/31/03 07:02 PM
12/31/03 07:02 PM

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[:"CC6699"]Is their mouth structure almost identical to cats? Or are you just comparing the look of it to a cats? [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16121
01/01/04 10:06 PM
01/01/04 10:06 PM

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ok now im starting to get nervous. please read my post (its new) called "binca not well again" does it sound like this? there is no swelling at all in her face and gum area, i checked it thuroughly as did the vet... am i just be alarmist now?

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16122
01/02/04 03:40 AM
01/02/04 03:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis
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Serious Glideritis

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Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Has the vet by chance checked inside her mouth to look at all of her teeth? To do so...I think he may have to put her to sleep to do a good visual inspection.

Let us know what your vet finds as it is possible she may have an oral or dental problem and thus would be unable to eat properly.

Last edited by Judie; 01/02/04 03:46 AM.
Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16123
01/02/04 03:44 AM
01/02/04 03:44 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis
Judie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
The mouth structure is not like cats...however...the side teeth along the upper and lower jaws appear to be made for shreading or shearing.

Last edited by Judie; 01/02/04 03:47 AM.
Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16124
01/02/04 04:09 AM
01/02/04 04:09 AM

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[:"CC6699"]Oh I see.... well, I am still doing more research on it, hopefully some of my previous questions will be answered or I can find out some more info! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16125
01/02/04 06:10 AM
01/02/04 06:10 AM

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My vet's theory is that there is probably some gum disease or loose teeth to begin with, and when given a pellet diet, then perhaps the glider will get lumpy jaw. She is not opposed to pellet diets in healthy gliders, altho I try desperately to get mine to eat BML.

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16126
01/02/04 10:03 AM
01/02/04 10:03 AM

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Wow this is such a good debate.. thanks for bringing up this point jessie.

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16127
01/02/04 01:33 PM
01/02/04 01:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
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NW Missouri
I agree. These are the kind of debates that we learn from. Debates are a good thing as long as we have a logical explanation or reason for everything we say and we don't tear each other down. We need to help educate each other and build each other up!
Megi



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Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16128
01/03/04 05:50 PM
01/03/04 05:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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Wallis Texas
I am inclined to agree with Peggy's vet. Although we do not feed the pelleted foods for reasons other than Lumpy Jaw. There are too many people that feed cat food and pelleted food and so few cases of Lumpy Jaw on record that it makes me think that this vet had the logical explanition.
Charlie H


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Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16129
01/03/04 05:54 PM
01/03/04 05:54 PM

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[:"CC6699"] I agree Charlie. There are so many gliders that eat pellet diets but almost no cases of lumpy jaw assiciated with them? That doesn't seem right to me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> I like what peggy's vet said also, which would explain why gliders on other diets, even BML, would get lumpy jaw. [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16130
01/04/04 05:15 PM
01/04/04 05:15 PM

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[:"CC6699"] Well I am bringing this to the top, one last time.

I am going to conclude that there isnt even close to enough proof to say that pelleted food causes lumpy jaw. This is most likely the case of one vet telling someone on the board that their diet caused lumpy jaw, and for a few years now, it has been spread by word of mouth, and escilated into something much much much more "dangerous" than it actually is.

I understand people don't believe pelleted food alone has the right nutrition for a glider, but I believe that using pelleted food in a well balanced diet is perfectly safe for a glider. I will no longer persuade pellete diet users to switch their diets in fear of lumpy jaw, which I have done in the past.

I hope this shed some new light onto the subject and proves that you can't believe everything you hear, sometimes you really do need the proof and question it for yourself. If I didn't open this thread, myself and many other glider owners might still believe lumpy jaw from pelleted diets is a high risk, when really, there is close to no risk at all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/]

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16131
01/05/04 02:53 PM
01/05/04 02:53 PM

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I was just thinking of something. It may be a really long shot, so I hope no one takes it as fact. Like I said, it's just an idea for now.

I've posted a long time ago about how gliders seem to rinse their mouths in water dishes, leaving little sandy bits at the bottom of the dishes. Why do they do it? Do they get food stuck between their teeth and need water to swish it around to get it out? And do gliders drinking from water bottles exhibit the same behavior? Has anyone watched a glider drink from a water bottle and see if they spit out anything afterwards? And were the gliders that had lumpy jaw drinking their water from a dish or a bottle?

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16132
01/05/04 03:24 PM
01/05/04 03:24 PM

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Mine all drink from a bottle, and in the years I have had them, I have never seen them spit water out. Other than that, I don't know of any correlation between lumpy jaw and the type of water feeder available.

Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16133
01/16/04 07:49 AM
01/16/04 07:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,857
England, UK
DeXien Offline
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DeXien  Offline
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England, UK
Not to keep bringing it up, but I have some further questions about this Lumpy Jaw issue.

I am not trying to bust anyone's bubbles, lol, but after I read this

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I figured that since so many of GC mods and members tell people pelleted food is bad because if causes Lumpy Jaw, that you might know where you heard it from or why you believe

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I was trying to figure out what the reason was as to why I supported this explanation. I'm not the sort to just say, "Hey, you said so, I believe it!" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Check it out below.

Gliders are commonly believed to get lumpy jaw from hard pelleted foods. Why? I was trying to work it out, and then the answer became obvious. Saliva is our bacterial defense system when it comes to putting foods into our mouths, right? It destroys most of the bacteria from the food, and washes down what's left to the stomach so that the strong stomach acid can take care of it there.

It's the same with gliders, and all other animals. Saliva is a very powerful thing when it comes to getting rid of bacteria. Eating crickets and other insects are not an issue, because they do not have bodies which absorb the saliva. They are not porous. Cat food, however, is. It enters the mouth and the saliva is automatically drawn to it.. but just soaks in. The gliders suck their food, as we know.. and that would most likely create a vacuum in their mouths and push the sharper pieces of the hard foods into their soft mouth parts.. perhaps creating scratches. Also it would make sense that it would leave the glider's mouth dry and the saliva glands are suddenly open to bacterial infection.. as are the little wounds. I have no scientific proof here, merely observation and knowledge from a past science course. It happens in us humans as well.. if all our saliva went, we would all be down with some serious throat infections.

Although dry food might not ALWAYS be the cause of lumpy jaw, it would make sense that using dry foods would increase the chances of a glider catching an infection due to lack of saliva.

Perhaps gliders who take big bites of the hard food are more likely to get lumpy jaw than those who eat delicately, with small bits at a time... which is why some gliders get it, and some don't. It's could all be based on a glider's eating behaviour.. Small bits at a time wouldn't be a problem, because the amount of saliva in the mouth should be able to handle the little bits and moisten them. This would also make sense why it is recommended to soak hard foods in water or fruit juice before feeding them.. it's less work for the glider, and less likely to cause problems.
I do not believe that there have been any tests done on this before.. merely sad incidences where the glider has unfortunately caught an infection.. either airbourne or already in the food it is eating. Once the bacteria is in there and has started multiplying and getting into the places in a glider's mouth where the saliva can't get to, it's very difficult to get it out and the body struggling to battle it can result in pus and ick... which means once it bursts, you have uncontrolled infection. (Again, these are merely thoughts, not proof. It seems we're all spilling our thoughts, though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

Lisa's explanation:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"Lumpy jaw is caused by bacteria normally found in the mouths of healthy animals. The bacteria can enter through wounds in the mouth, which can be caused by hard or coarse feed. Lumpy jaw may interfere with the animal's ability to eat; other than the swelling on the jaw, animals may appear healthy. This condition can ultimately lead to spreading of harmful bacteria and even death."

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Whether they be wounds or an open saliva gland, the result would be the same. It seems lumpy jaw is commonly mistaken for a tooth abcess.. which would make sense, because the symptoms are similar. If Jessie's statement is true about the vet first looking at the teeth before looking for lumpy jaw.. it would seem that perhaps a tooth abcess is more common than lumpy jaw. Jessie, where did you get the info?

Also..

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
"And Gliders have something like 40 some odd teeth. Why do they have so many teeth if they werent adapted to eat anything hard?"

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Bonzai, what you said makes perfect sense, but what about when they rip apart those pinkies? It sure looks like they have flesh tearing abilities to me! *shivers*

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Lol. I think you answered your own question there. Gliders are also meat eaters.. but they don't eat the bones of their victims. They need those 40 odd tearing teeth to strip all the meat from the bones. Pinkies are a good alternative for us because their bones are still soft and moist, and we don't have the gross experience of the joys of picking up the bones you're likely to find scattered about if you get an adult mouse to feed. (which is dangerous and could result in injury anyway.)

Sorry for the long post. But the reasons above are why I personally believe hard foods cause Lumpy Jaw. Until it is scientifically researched and proved otherwise.. I'll be sticking to my beliefs and own knowledge/research.

Unfortunately, as wonderful as GC is.. it is not a vetinary clinic or a research station. To really pinpoint the problem would need the help of the GRF over a period of several years.

Please, if anyone has ANY information that would clash with mine, PLEASE post it. I am also very interested in the causes of Lumpy Jaw, and the more theories the better.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />


Saffron -- OOP 7th April 2003-> 8th May 2013. RIP, sweetheart.
Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16134
01/16/04 10:37 AM
01/16/04 10:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline
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Karin  Offline
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Sycamore Illinois
Ok...I am not a numbers/scientific kind of person, so please don't bash me...but my thoughts all along have been, eating hard pelleted foods consistently...wouldn't that be working the salivary glands "overtime"? I dunno, maybe that's silly.

Karin


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Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ] #16135
01/16/04 10:51 AM
01/16/04 10:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,857
England, UK
DeXien Offline
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DeXien  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,857
England, UK
Hmm.. I guess that is a possibility, but I'm not sure. Gliders (generally!) aren't used to eating dry foods.. so there would be no indication that evolution would have had enough time to create ability to instantly be able to know and produce the extra saliva to deal with these hard, and more importantly, DRY foods.

Also.. I think chewing is what stimulates the saliva glands. Don't quote me on it, it just seems correct. Which leads me to another possibility..

Thinking ... Resistance in food has got to be important. Try and imagine the amount of pressure or force required to bite through a piece of food that can be swallowed easily. Foods with low resistance require very little chewing because they tend to dissolve easily in the mouth (peaches, steamed veggies). Those with medium resistance are still relatively soft but require some chewing (apples, chicken). Foods that create the most resistance require strong, sustained chewing. (dried fruit, catfood)

All of the above have different amounts of moisture in. And as we know, gliders prefer sucking over chewing. If a glider does manage to get the hard food crunched up.. then it has loads of smaller pieces to deal with that are still very dry.. and whilst it's concentrating on eating the largest piece in it's mouth, the little crumbs and pieces are absorbing the extra fluids or possibly getting INTO the saliva glands and causing minor blockage. Does that make sense?

I guess we'd need to ask how much saliva the average glider produces on a no resistance piece of food, and how much is produced on hard foods..

I'm trying to imagine a glider's mouth and it's workings as I do this, lol. I am not a scientist, and I am not someone who works with researchers. But I do not think that we should disregard hard dry foods as a possible cause for lumpy jaw.


Saffron -- OOP 7th April 2003-> 8th May 2013. RIP, sweetheart.
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