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Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1316842
01/04/13 04:19 PM
01/04/13 04:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
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My thought has always been that the producing males from the sterile line couldn't pass the sterility gene since they obviously didn't "get it" themselves. However, with the new information that Priscilla just provided to us, she stated that fertile males have gone on to produce sterile males. So now I think that they should all just be considered either "sterile line" or "producing sterile line" for full disclosure.

Heather - your male should be fine because he is not where the sterility issue would have come from. Your Hocus is from the Mother White line - which is the non-sterile line. Any issues from Magic would have come from his mother's line. She comes from the Loli line.

However, this is an example of where the sterile lines and the non-sterile lines have been crossed.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1316887
01/04/13 07:46 PM
01/04/13 07:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 102
Michigan
KaliKatka Offline OP
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::shrug:: I am not usually a "take their word on it" kind of person, and it irks me that the best evidence is a discussion on facebook recalling events from a decade ago, but I must admit Priscilla is our best source for this and concede the point. If sterile males are born from producing males from a sterile line mated to a female from clean lines than this is not a simple case of a one dominant gene or x-linked gene inheritance pattern. However I maintain that this same pairing, along with many others, also shows that it is not a recessive gene either, and that the major concern with breeding is that they could pass on a hidden recessive gene that could become widespread in our lines and remanifest due to inbreeding for recessive colors.

I still strongly disagree that inbreeding caused or contributed to the disorder. This is not a statement denying that inbreeding occured, it is a statement that inbreeding is not the root cause of the sterility in this incidence.

The hypothesis that the sterility came about due to mating subspecies together is supported by the information available in the database as all of the males in the first mating were sterile. I would like to add that one of the aims of Dr. Hollelley is to determine the extent of inbreeding in our domestic lines working from the hypothesis that the limited number of original gliders imported into the country could have created a bottleneck effect on the diversity of the US domesticated glider gene pool. Bringing in new blood from a subspecies mating might actually be a good thing for the lines in the long run as it increases their genetic diversity as a population.

I will have to agree to disagree with Shelly's opinion on breeding my line of gliders. I truly feel they are safe, healthy, and sterility free, and that their joeys will be also. I would not endanger the health and well being of my gliders or their descendants if I was not convinced of that. And I will quietly continue my crusade to clear the good names of my family from those that call them defective.

If anyone has any new information, please pass it along to me.

Hperk, I believe it was Magic's mother in the sterile lines so Hocus and his line should be ok (assuming the sterility is not recessive).



Kaylee
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Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1316913
01/04/13 10:07 PM
01/04/13 10:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
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North Central Ohio
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Kaylee - I agree that its sad that this is all we have to go on, but to date...it is. So I'm really hoping to get this genetic testing done and prove things out once and for all. wink

My opinion is not, and never has been that any of these gliders are not safe and healthy. I cannot say for certain what is sterile free based on what information I have available to me.

Unfortunately, with the stigma that follows the sterile lines, I just feel that full disclosure should be made to anyone buying these lines. I say this because I have seen so many people buy a glider for breeding, and then get very upset that they were not told by the breeder, or that its not documented in the database, that it came from sterile or previously sterile lines. Knowing this information, the buyer can make their own decision.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1317046
01/05/13 06:01 PM
01/05/13 06:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 102
Michigan
KaliKatka Offline OP
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Shelly, could you give me the name of the sterile glider born after six generations of non steriles, or the breeder name, or ask the breeder to contact me at kalikatka@yahoo.com. I would like to know if this glider was in Lorie's line and check through the lineage in case it contains any clues to the true inheritance pattern.



Kaylee
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Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1317091
01/05/13 10:33 PM
01/05/13 10:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
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Sure, I will contact the breeder and give them your info. wink


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

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Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1318263
01/10/13 04:25 PM
01/10/13 04:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 102
Michigan
KaliKatka Offline OP
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So I have been in contact with the breeder of the 5th generation glider that produced sterile males. The glider in question has a mother in the database, but that mother doesn't have a mother listed. None of the line has been traced to see who produced sterile sons and who did not. You can't even trace back past one generation, and can't see which line they come from. The owner of this glider was well aware that the glider came from sterile lines, and is not sure that she was 5th generation. The only evidence that the breeder has that the glider is 5th generation is a notation that says
"Genetics WFB Mosaic Ringtail 5th Gen (Sterile Lines)" on her sister's record in the database.

Since this gliders sterile line grandmother is unknown, how can anyone claim that she is from 5 generations that have not produced sterile males? This evidence is highly suspect, and using it to state that it proves the gene can not be bred out is dangerous, misleading, and inflammatory.

The sterile males born from producing males evidence is questionable as well. I have been given Priscilla's permission to quote her saying "Tyler, you had asked me before how I knew that Freddy & Jason produced sterile males. After thinking about this and it was a while back. Jason's last son was developed. He was with a female for about a year and they did not have babies. But as we know it could be the female or they could have needed a little longer. I had him neutered and sold him. Just from memory, one of Freddy's son's did not develop, and I sold him as non producing so I have no proof of him not producing, I doubt anyone ever tried. I have seen producing males from producing lines that were not well developed so I'm not sure that it is completely accurate to say these males were definitely sterile when all the rest of Freddy's were producing. In breeding these lines over the last 10 years, once you have a producing male, most all the males appear to be producing. I have some great females that are bred out from these lines and their males seem to all be producing. So I absolutely agree with you that once it is from a producing sterile line the odds of sterility are slim."

The preponderance of evidence supports that this gene doesn't pass through males.

Having a sterile line female of unknown lineage produce sterile offspring is not evidence that the gene cannot be bred out, just that it hasn't been in that particular gliders line. A sterile het mother has a 50% chance to pass on the sterility gene to her children. That means (statistically speaking) half of her daughters will not get it, and therefore cannot pass it on. (Each individual birth has a 50% chance of receiving the gene, this chance is independent of any other births from the same pairing). In those gliders the gene has been bred out. Showing that there are females in the world that produce sterile males isn't proof that it can't be bred out.

Distilling these situations down to one lines sentences and adding the word prove to them doesn't prove anything about the inheritance of sterility.

Last edited by sugarlope; 01/11/13 07:09 PM. Reason: edited text


Kaylee
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Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1318268
01/10/13 04:33 PM
01/10/13 04:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
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Quote:
A sterile het mother has a 50% chance to pass on the sterility gene to her children. That means half of her daughters will not get it, and therefore cannot pass it on. In those gliders the gene has been bred out.


I have an issue with this. IN theory, half of her daughters wouldn't carry the gene is how it APPEARS when you do the Punnet square.

However, that is misleading. You have to look at it on an individual basis. Meaning out of EACH BIRTH the female joey has a 50% chance of carrying the gene.

You could have 10 individual joeys born and all 10 carry the gene or none of them carry the gene or part of them carry the gene.

We KNOW from color breeding that a wf glider paired with a grey glider, in THEORY, 50% of the joeys will be wf. But it doesn't work that way. It is EACH JOEY has a CHANCE of being a wf. It is possible that NONE of their joeys will be wf. It is possible that ALL of their joeys will be.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1318276
01/10/13 04:44 PM
01/10/13 04:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 102
Michigan
KaliKatka Offline OP
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Dancing, you are right of course and I apologize for my poor wording. I will ammend the post.



Kaylee
Awesome Possum Sugar Gliders
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Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1318378
01/11/13 12:37 AM
01/11/13 12:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
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LOL, sorry, this is just something that "gets under my skin" a little (don't know why). It is something that comes up (or used to) all the time about color possibilities.

Someone had leu+leu het gliders and thought they would get 1/2 their joeys come out leu and were quite upset when that didn't happen. It was a case of them not understanding and taking the square at "face value".

I wouldn't want the same misunderstanding on this issue.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion!


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Sterile lines [Re: GliderNursery] #1318427
01/11/13 11:16 AM
01/11/13 11:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,318
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline
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This thread is being closed while Admn decides whether or not it will be reopened as it is or posts edited based on our No Drama Policy .

We have no problem with discussion as long as it remains within Rule 4, but this thread has taken a different and more personal turn it would seem.


Quote:
Rule 4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented board moving towards a "PG" rather than a "G" rating. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. This means illegal substances, illegal activities, flaming, sexually explicit subjects, spamming, harassing, policing, diet bashing, and abusive or negative personal posts are not allowed. Posts and sometimes entire topics that contain such content will be removed, and the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Abuse, flaming or inappropriate comments directed toward GliderCENTRAL, its Moderators and Administrators, or failure to comply with the direction of a Moderator or Administrator, the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Please keep any personal matters off the board. Take it to email or PM. Please keep in mind that board rules do apply when using the PM feature.

Last edited by sugarlope; 01/11/13 07:11 PM.

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Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1318531
01/11/13 07:15 PM
01/11/13 07:15 PM
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in my happy place
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As Karen said above, this thread has been edited. Please keep any further discussion focused on the subject. No personally directed comments will be tolerated. Any further posting of this type will result in the thread being closed.


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Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1318774
01/13/13 03:16 AM
01/13/13 03:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 738
Columbia, TN
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I would like to be in the loop when the option for genetic testing becomes available. I would really like the stigma so go away and facts and evidence to be attainable. Thank you Kaylee for bringing the subject up.

Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1319013
01/14/13 12:33 PM
01/14/13 12:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 102
Michigan
KaliKatka Offline OP
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Kb314 i'm having good luck so far with an easy method of collecting a DNA sample from the glider by having them lick a buccalswab, it remains to be seen if I can get enough DNA out of it but I should know by the end of the week. Answers from genetic testing are a long way off, the researcher is collecting samples and working on a related project before concentrating on the genetic basis for the colorations and sterility.

People have studied genetics for nearly a century before gene sequencing came around. They use pedigrees to determine how a gene is inherited. Even today when you see a genetic counsilor they usually use family history, not genome mapping, to determine risk levels for different disorders.

We have attainable facts and evidence already but still have this stigma that seems to be mostly based on misinformation and misunderstanding, but is still widespread in the community. I would like to encourage breeders to make decisions based on the pedigree evidence, and not to condemn other breeders in the community for doing so.



Kaylee
Awesome Possum Sugar Gliders
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Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1321396
01/23/13 03:02 PM
01/23/13 03:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
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Columbia, TN
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I have my muraco who is obviously not sterile as he has produced, so basically I would like dna testing to prove/disprove whether or not the sterility can pop back up.

I think that he is safe to breed, other breeders have said he is safe to breed as well.

I am still trying to understand the "producing sterile line" which is an oxymoron. Besides the one incident of the one male glider that only had one testicle, is there any other evidence (even though that doesn't seem like evidence to suggest sterility to me because other animals can reproduce with only one & could be caused by something else) to suggest that it can be recessive in males?

If anyone has experience in breeding "sterile line" or "producing sterile line" could you please pm me, or email me?

Stowawaygliders@gmail.com

Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1321449
01/23/13 06:09 PM
01/23/13 06:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
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That one glider that is mentioned as having only one testicle did in fact breed. He was not sterile. The only other "evidence" we have is that Priscilla mentioned that early on she had males from the sterile line go on to produce sterile male offspring. There is no proof of that.

Producing Sterile Lines is a term that someone came up with to indicate the line was originated from a sterile line but is now producing.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1321511
01/23/13 09:35 PM
01/23/13 09:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
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Columbia, TN
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So can we call it previously sterile line, no longer sterile? Or do we have to have proof before we can do this?

Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1321558
01/24/13 12:06 AM
01/24/13 12:06 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
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I would just say "from sterile lines" or "from previously sterile lines".

You can see more of my explanation here:Mosaics


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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Re: Sterile lines [Re: KaliKatka] #1323226
01/30/13 11:24 AM
01/30/13 11:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 738
Columbia, TN
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I think this topic should be be stuck, maybe we could educate more on the sterile line this way

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