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Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: GliderFun] #1238884
03/14/12 01:03 AM
03/14/12 01:03 AM
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Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline OP
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NY
lol No that makes sense. Though, I still don't agree that shipping will definitely cause harm to your glider/pets.

If I was a concerned glider owner looking to move and knew nothing about shipping and I came across their statement I would contact them to follow up about the shipping statement.

I would ask them if their statement is true and tell them shipping is my only option. *If* they told me that the gliders would suffer and potentially die, I would, as a responsible owner, re-home them instead of putting my beloved pets through the 'horrors' of shipping.

As far as *I* am concerned, shipping is a safe and viable option for those who must move.


Dancing, I understand what you're saying now.

Again, I like to keep everything in writing. I guess my goal through all of this was to get people thinking, get opinions as well as (through private emails) to get LGRS to change the writing in their posts to show that what they are saying is an opinion rather than a fact.

A simple "we feel that" before their statement, or "it's our opinion that", etc would make me feel much better about the whole thing.

BTW, I think we all have a little farm at home. I have goats, chickens, quail, rabbits, over 200 mice, rats, chinchillas, ferrets, exotic mice, fish, turtle, cats, dogs, etc. smile And they all get handled daily!! Talk about time consuming!! Though I don't work so my "farm" is my work. smile

Last edited by GliderFun; 03/14/12 01:09 AM.
Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: GliderFun] #1238887
03/14/12 01:08 AM
03/14/12 01:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 241
Missouri, USA
Annie Offline
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Annie  Offline
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Posts: 241
Missouri, USA
Their statement is true. It CAN cause harm. It won't DEFINATELY cause harm. Can and will are two different things.


Momma to Remi :wfb:
Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: GliderFun] #1238888
03/14/12 01:15 AM
03/14/12 01:15 AM
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Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline OP
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You can also get hit by lightening while being struck by a car in Kansas.

You can also get eaten by an alligator while sleeping in your home in Florida.

You can also be beaten to death while sleeping in your bed on a Wednesday night after watching 4 hours of television.

Anything CAN happen.

It was written as:
"We do not ship animals because it is not healthy for them and can cause death and suffering."

The first part was written as a "matter-of-fact". The second part yes, includes "can" but I think the whole statement would be better worded as:

"We do not ship animals because it is our opinion [or belief] that it is not healthy for them and can cause death and suffering."

OR

"We do not ship animals because we believe it is not healthy for them and believe it can cause death and suffering."

OR, even better

"We do not ship animals because we believe it is not healthy for them and in rare cases can cause death and suffering."


Any thoughts or suggestions on my suggested changes?

I just think it would be better stated this way and avoid any confusion and misunderstanding.


Last edited by GliderFun; 03/14/12 01:31 AM.
Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: GliderFun] #1238899
03/14/12 07:24 AM
03/14/12 07:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
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Washington D.C. Metro Area
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GliderFun - at this point, you've gotten good suggestions and opinions on what to do to make your case here if you feel this strongly, which is what you asked for. Discussing it with Ed/Gail would be your best bet.

As long as this discussion remains within Rule 4, it will stay open.

This will be the only warning.

Quote:
4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented board moving towards a "PG" rather than a "G" rating. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. This means illegal substances, illegal activities, flaming, sexually explicit subjects, spamming, harassing, policing, diet bashing, and abusive or negative personal posts are not allowed. Posts and sometimes entire topics that contain such content will be removed, and the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Abuse, flaming or inappropriate comments directed toward GliderCENTRAL, its Moderators and Administrators, or failure to comply with the direction of a Moderator or Administrator, the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Please keep any personal matters off the board. Take it to email or PM. Please keep in mind that board rules do apply when using the PM feature.

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: GliderFun] #1239011
03/14/12 01:00 PM
03/14/12 01:00 PM
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NY
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GliderFun Offline OP
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Thank you DC.

Like I mentioned. I have been discussing it with Ed.

I refuse to take it out of text as to protect myself and him.

I'm hoping to come to a mutual understanding with him as he just emailed me and told me he knows that it is a fact that most animals make it just fine during shipping.


I'm hoping to come to an understanding with him, and that he agrees to change the wording in his ads to reflect what he has told me privately in email. :-)

I would never personally attack someone else, nor would I abuse another person via the internet or in person. I hold myself to a higher standard than that. :-)

Last edited by GliderFun; 03/14/12 01:01 PM.
Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: GliderFun] #1239023
03/14/12 01:25 PM
03/14/12 01:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 29
missouri
shadow_ Offline
In Pouch
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missouri
you can record phone calls.


"We do not ship animals because we believe it is not healthy for them and in rare cases can cause death and suffering."

i dont agree with the word rare. rare would mean that it barely ever happens, if that was the case we wouldnt have so many people saying they had a bad experience shipping. i have a friend who had a bad experience with it but i wont go into detail. you have to remember human error, these are humans handling these kids of "cargo" day after day and may be careless every now and then. they should understand that they are handling live animals but we dont know these people. do they care about how the animal/cargo's feeling? are they having a bad day or do they think of this stuff as just more luggage? im not trying to say they are bad people but they are human and they were not hired based on the fact they like or care about animals. they may dislike animals for all we know but their job is to load up the plane with the cargo. i dont know if that one worker gets in trouble if the animal arrives ill or dead. for the people who read Ed's email he made some good points about animals arriving dead.

you know it would kinda be neat if someone put like a video camera and some other devices to measure stuff and send it like/with a live animal/sugar glider. BUT it would have to be done multiple times and still wouldnt be 100% true because mistakes do happen.


2 sugar glider brothers named Rune and Vash
sugar glider and a Halloween addict :D
Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: GliderFun] #1239040
03/14/12 02:02 PM
03/14/12 02:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 7,560
Long Island, NY
yiyo Offline
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yiyo  Offline
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Long Island, NY
I, personally as a consumer, would like to know the worst case scenario in any given transaction. I don't want to be told there are no worries and then something go wrong.

Unfortunately, there IS a possibility that gliders "can" get adversely effected by flight travel. And until someone can prove that NO glider's health (emotional or physical) will be adversely effected by that, then their statement IS fact. They're not saying that the glider WON'T survive, they only state that it's unhealthy and that they can get injured or suffer from it. All of that IS true.

A small example - say a human has extreme anxiety about flying to the point of having to take prescription medication in order to be able to fly without have severe emotional stress - Is it going to kill them? Proabably not. But is it "healthy" for them? Probably not.

And I also don't think that their statement contributes to "dumped" gliders. Dumped gliders are typically from uneducated owners, not from an inability to ship them when someone is moving. Just my humble opinion.....

Last edited by yiyo; 03/14/12 02:08 PM.

Alyssa

"Moving on is a simple thing, what it leaves behind is hard."
Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: yiyo] #1239043
03/14/12 02:15 PM
03/14/12 02:15 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,714
New Jersey
etrnalsunshinee Offline
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Originally Posted By: yiyo
And I also don't think that their statement contributes to "dumped" gliders. Dumped gliders are typically from uneducated owners, not from an inability to ship them when someone is moving. Just my humble opinion.....


I have to partially agree with this. My pets mean so much to me that if I was moving within the contiguous states I would make the drive if I was afraid to ship them, and if I wasn't I would find an airline that would allow them as carry-ons or make the final travel another way (such as by boat) to keep them. I think that their statement could use revision for the inexperienced glider owners, or maybe even just urge them to do their own research if this statement applys to their own pets.


Amy

:wfb: Micah
:wfb: Momo
Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: yiyo] #1239099
03/14/12 05:11 PM
03/14/12 05:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
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North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: yiyo
Unfortunately, there IS a possibility that gliders "can" get adversely effected by flight travel. This is very true! And until someone can prove that NO glider's health (emotional or physical) will be adversely effected by that, then their statement IS fact. This I disagree with. To me, saying it's "unhealthy" means that it would effect ALL gliders, and it doesn't. So IMO, that part is not true.


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Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: GliderFun] #1239153
03/14/12 06:38 PM
03/14/12 06:38 PM
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Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline OP
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Is there any proof that shipping gliders is 100% unhealthy for them?


Ed has also told me he knows that it is a fact that most animals shipped make it there with no problems.

He does refuse to change his wording even though he contradicted the info from his ads and the info that he told me in email.

I feel this will go nowhere and obviously my efforts are just a waste of time.

just a shame.

thanks for listening guys.

Last edited by GliderFun; 03/14/12 06:44 PM.
Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: GliderFun] #1239181
03/14/12 07:19 PM
03/14/12 07:19 PM
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Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
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If I understand this thread topic correctly, the op's issue is the wording of a statement on a rescue organization's site. As a working rescue and sanctuary, we have policies in place governing all aspects of our operations. These policies were not developed overnight, nor were they written on a whim. They were developed over years of work in animal rescue encountering many situations. Our policies are in place for a reason: to protect the animals in our care. While they may be adapted as new information or situations are encountered, they will not be rewritten simply because someone doesn't like their wording. Our rescue and sanctuary is a 501(c)(3), just like Lucky Glider/Ed and Gail, and as such, we must adhere to our organization's bylaws. We have a Board of Directors who discuss and vote on issues with the goal of providing the best care possible to our residents. That is the process by which changes are made. Again, nothing is done on a whim.

I take my job as an animal rescue very seriously. I do my best to provide correct and current information. All educational projects/programs are approved by our BOD. If we were contacted by someone with a complaint such as the op's, the BOD would consider the issue and make a decision. No changes would be made simply because someone didn't like our wording. If that person then made a post insinuating that our organization...one which has worked incredibly hard for over 8 years to help sugar gliders...was causing harm to the very animals we strive to help, I would wonder why. Is it to try to put public pressure on an organization to make changes to suit one person's views or is it was to make problems for an organization simply because it wouldn't make changes for that one person? I don't understand what this post is meant to do?

In regards to the allegation that this particular statement is causing owners to abandon their pets...absolutely not. The responsibility of caring for their pets lies with the owner and no one else. To even hint that abandonment of pets is the fault of a rescue is insulting to me. I deal with people every single day who want to surrender pets. Some of them have "real" reasons, but most are simply tired of the responsibility of pet care. There is no excuse for that. If actions could be changed simply by the words rescues put on their sites, then there should be no more unwanted pets, no feral cats, no pythons loose in the Everglades and all pets would be spayed or neutered. I wish it were that easy. The wording of Lucky Glider's policy on shipping will not cause a responsible owner to suddenly abandon their pet.

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: thefotokat] #1239188
03/14/12 07:43 PM
03/14/12 07:43 PM
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Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline OP
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I never said that it WOULD cause owners to dump their gliders.

I posed the question and it was my opinion that the way the statement is written COULD contribute to animals being dumped because someone of authority is stating their opinion as fact and may be scaring people off.

I am repeating myself again as I do not want my words to be skewed.

My worry is for the ANIMALS and as someone who worked in animal rescue for years, I take my stance, job, and responsibility to be the voice of the animals very seriously. If I did not, I would not have brought this up.

:-D

There's no reading between the lines. I said what I meant

Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: GliderFun] #1239194
03/14/12 07:51 PM
03/14/12 07:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,921
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Online /gc/lgc
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Since no one from LGRS has posted, this continues to be what appears a one sided argument with no end in sight.

I am now going to lock this thread.


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Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: KarenE] #1239552
03/15/12 05:32 PM
03/15/12 05:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,921
LittleRock, AR USA
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Ed has requested this thread be reopened so he may respond.

Any further discussion will remain within Rule 4 or it will be locked again.


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Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: GliderFun] #1239554
03/15/12 05:43 PM
03/15/12 05:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
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To answer the question begged in subject headline no we do not think we are contributing the abandonment of gliders because we say shipping is dangerous. The very notion that a full-time rescue would contribute to abandonment is a bit of an insult, but we do not want our feelings to get in the way of conveying our intent and an explanation of our policy.

As to the splitting of hairs on the use of the words, May, Shall, Will Is etc. etc. juxtaposed with the word Dangerous I dont reckon anyone who would have the compunction to abandon (because we dont condone outbound placement shipping and call it dangerous) would contemplate the distinction. Lets face it, if someone is willing to dump an animal because we dont condone shipping do you really think the use of the word, shall, may, will, etc. next to dangerous is going to make the difference? We dont think so. Not that anyone cruising an adoption site and looking at the particulars of an animal that is up for adoption would also be contemplating surrender anyway. And thats where we put the disclaimer. So to us the wording is a moot point because the intent is very clear our policy is we dont ship. We say its dangerous and it is our prerogative to say so if we want to.

As a point of fact, there is a reason why the USDA transfer forms have a box on the form that says Number of animals arrived dead. That is because there is in fact death, and the USDA wants to keep track of it. Not sure how many pet stores and mill breeders want that data disclosed publicly though. Sure there are plenty of good experiences from shipping personal gliders. We do not refute that. But that is the prerogative of the person shipping. It is our prerogative not to ship. If anyone out there wants to start a rescue and establish their own policies on shipping be my guest but these policies are not going to be fleshed out in a public court or on the whim of someone who is nitpicking about our policy wording. That is ours to decide.

Also, our ad on www.petfinder.com where we list adoptable animals and our disclaimer about shipping must be taken in CONTEXT.

First of all, www.petfinder.com is NOT a surrender site. Petfinder is an ADOPTION site. So the context of our statement on shipping must be understood to mean we do not ship gliders TO people who want to adopt. Nowhere on that site are we encouraging surrender ANYWAY. So why this subject would be so controversial given what we say is on an ADOPTION site go figure. (it's petFINDER, not PetDUMPER)

Now on the subject of having gliders shipped to our rescue, that is a different context altogether. That is to say, in special circumstances (like the HI gliders that were transferred from the HI Dept of Agriculture to LGRS during the amnesty program), we will take INCOMING gliders by freight but that is only if the alternative is the threat of death or if there is no other viable rescue who can take them in locally. In that particular instance, it was not about the adopting-out of gliders, but rather taking in gliders long distance. The chances of them being euthanized if they did not get off the island were higher than the threat of them expiring en route so that is a pragmatic choice not hypocrisy. Incidentally these gliders were health checked by a vet and checked out by a local glider enthusiast so we were sure they were in perfect health before we agreed to the shipping.

Ironically, the HI Dept of Agriculture would not have allowed that transfer to a non-USDA licensed, non-501(c)3 organization so that narrowed the field significantly. I mention this because some people postulate that having a USDA license is a big joke (After all any idiot can get a license and mill breeders have them). Well, in this case, having that license actually facilitated a rescue where the alternative was an almost certain death. Ill take not likely death over certain death any time. So thats our answer to people who think a rescue having a USDA license as being a joke. It is in fact no joke at all. And the fact we are regularly inspected by USDA ACIs just like breeders does bring comfort to both adopters and surrender-ers. But that does not mean we dont think shipping is dangerous from the git-go. I mean jumping out of airplanes with a parachute is also dangerous but most people make it to the ground alive. That doesnt make you a hypocrite to say its dangerous because well it is dangerous. I dont care if youve done it once or a hundred times. Its still a dangerous activity.

Now I can share what our motivation is for the policy though and our thoughts behind the policy in case anyone is wondering:

1. People surrendering animals often do not take care of them very well and to put them through the stress of containerized travel could push them over the edge - especially if they have metabolic bone disease or another nutritional malady. Many gliders surrendered to us are not in good health (upon surrender) so we just don't trust people enough to ship them when they could be too sick to travel. You would not believe the horrible condition some of these animals are in when they come to us. Some people are completely clueless as to how bad off their animals are because they ignorantly do not have a reference point or do not get their animals health checked. The thought of putting such an (on the edge, at-risk) animal in the belly of a plane unattended is just unthinkable for us.

2. For people adopting, we need to meet them face-to-face, put them through our (free) animal husbandry for sugar gliders school and dietary workshop, etc. and you can't do that long distance. Well it might be possible to do the coursework long distance, but people cant interact with the gliders and get pooped on, smell them, get bitten, or allow us to gauge their reactions, etc. long distance. And the fact that people would ship animals to some unknown, faceless person out in the ether - who have had no training on animal husbandry - is cruel in itself. There is no attempt whatsoever for pet stores let alone mill breeders to truly educate people on the truth about how to care for sugar gliders. They just ship off these animals as a commodity. They don't care what happens so long as they get paid. That's awful. And air travel enables this moral sloppiness. Sorry we are NOT going to lump ourselves in the same category as mill breeders and allow the commodity-like shipping of animals as part of our routine. Not going to happen. Anyone getting a hold of these animals for adoption is going to come here, pass our sanity check, take the class and workshop, etc. We aint an animal version of eBay for goodness sakes.

3. Shipping is an ENABLER for mill breeders to have access to the whole country as their market. Frankly these death merchants dont deserve to have access to far-flung buyers because PetSafe commodity air travel is available. So now these money grubbing death merchants can flood the market not only with gliders but with the lies they tell about their care which in turn causes much death and suffering. So if the travel does not kill them it takes them to their "death camp" that much quicker. I know this third point is both passionate and philosophical, but we truly hate the fact that air travel enables the greed of mill breeders and their lies. So in an indirect way, shipping can cause death and suffering - just not necessarily from the travel itself. That is NOT to say that shipping itself is not dangerous.

Based on our records and interviews with literally hundreds of people who abandon these animals, not ONCE did anyone EVER indicate they were dumping their animals "because we can't ship them by airplane." I mean for goodness sakes If people are moving, they can CARRY the animals with them. (When we moved our rescue, we paid professional animal movers to do that by climate-controlled vehicles with both a driver and a animal caretaker. We followed two of these vehicles in our own vehicle.)

As a point of FACT the top ten surrender reasons are, IN ORDER:

1. My child lost interest or went away to college and stuck me with the animals
2. The breeder / pet shop lied to me about how easy it is to care for them and I just don't have the patience any more
3. The cage mate died and I don't have the heart to keep the single one and think your rescue will do a better job of finding a mate for my single
4. I just got a new job that requires a lot of travel so I can't take care of them
5. My (brother, mother, sister, etc.) is allergic to them so they have to go
6. We just had a baby and don't have time for these animals
7. I have to move and I don't want to bear the expense and hassle of taking them with me (no mention whatsoever - EVER - of air travel)
8. I found this animal outside (or abandoned in front of a building in a cage) and took it in temporarily but don't want to take care of it any longer
9. It keeps biting me and doesn't like me
10. I am tired of it and want to get a different pet

Guess what? I am dumping my glider because LGRS says shipping is dangerous umm doesnt make the list and its never even been on the radar. So no, we are not the cause of abandonment because we say shipping is dangerous.

with utmost sincerity - Ed M, co-director
_________________________
Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
94 gliders, six donekys, one llama, two barn cats, three dogs, seventeen goats, eight sheep, etc.


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Could LGRS be Contributing to 'dumped' gliders? [Re: GliderFun] #1239573
03/15/12 06:08 PM
03/15/12 06:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 794
Wv,USA
AmandaSnyder Offline
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AmandaSnyder  Offline
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Posts: 794
Wv,USA
I am just so happy you decided to make an apperance ed lol. I think yall have every reason to think the way you do about shiiping and when i ran a rescue there was no way i would have shipped any of my babys.

I have never shipped any of my joeys now that im a small hobby breeder im not saying that i wouldnt just havent had anyone wanting a joey that lived far away (not yet anyways only have had 3 joeys so far).

I have got 2 gliders that i recieved from a plane but i think its differant shipping a joey that has never been mistreaded then shipping a rescue who may have had a bad life.

So i agree with you but also dont think shipping is a bad thing for responsible breeders even though there is a chance of the glider dieing or being very tramitized from it.


Amanda Lynn Snyder
Mommy & Slave To:
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4 :grey: Ma & Pa/ Adam & Eve

1 :rtmo: Oreo 1 :lue: Almond :wfb: Joy
1 German Shepard JaJa
Most of all Very Happy Hubby!
RIP Twix i miss u!!!
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by ichabodandRoux. 10/30/19 11:23 AM
I’m so sorry if I’m annoying just one more question
by Gliderlove87. 10/29/19 09:17 PM
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