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Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs #1237175
03/08/12 11:37 PM
03/08/12 11:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline OP
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North Central Ohio
What is it, and can it be cured?


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237208
03/09/12 12:08 AM
03/09/12 12:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
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tjlong Offline
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Washington
It's a flagellate like giardia. It doesn't have eggs, it replicates itself. It lives in the gut and can be seen on a direct fecal smear but it isn't easy to find/see.
It can be treated with metronidazole but sometimes needs a second type treatment to produce a clean fecal smear. Can it be treated? Yes. Do we get rid of it completely? We don't know at this point. Just like we don't always get rid of giardia, we reduce the amount so we can't see it on tests anymore.

We don't know which strain our gliders get. We believe it is not the t. Foetus strain. A PCR test for tritrich will most likely come up negative because that above mentioned strain is the most commonly found strain an is therefore the one tested for.

This is all info pertinent to sugar gliders.

In some other animals it can be cured. In others it is an STD, like in cattle. With cattle a bull, once infected, is never cured. In cows it usually clears after a calf that was from the infected bull is aborted. In rodents it is I curable and is passed to offspring.

It can be mistaken for giardia to the untrained eye. However, the two have very different movements if observed under a scope.

Last edited by tjlong; 03/09/12 12:11 AM.

Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project




Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237220
03/09/12 12:22 AM
03/09/12 12:22 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline OP
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GliderNursery  Offline OP
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North Central Ohio
Thank you Tracy.

Does anyone know how a glider gets it?

What are the symptoms?


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237223
03/09/12 12:28 AM
03/09/12 12:28 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,576
Kilgore, Texas
Cora Offline
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Kilgore, Texas
This looks like the pic a vet drew for someone with a glider with TT
3rd one from the left on top row, but several pics look like it
https://www.google.com/search?q=tritrich...152&bih=608


USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

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Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237236
03/09/12 12:53 AM
03/09/12 12:53 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline
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I've heard a few random things about it, one is that a symptom is diarrhea. I've heard that it mostly comes from barn cats that have access to bovine. I also did a search and found that it's common in pigeons and some other wild birds.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237239
03/09/12 01:04 AM
03/09/12 01:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
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tjlong Offline
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Washington
We don't know how gliders get it. The pic Cora linked is of the t. Foetus strain. Again, our gliders do not show positive for this strain. Cats get that strain and in some cases in cats after a 2 year period, it is no longer detected. No one has data on gliders. I have been told it can be treated and cured in birds.

Yes, sometimes diarrhea is a symptom. However, like giardia, it can be there and there can be no symptoms to warn you. We just don't know enough about it yet. I believe that weight loss or low weight could be a symptom. I also know once it is in the body of a glider it can give off a byproduct that effects the ph balance of the gut of the host in such a way that it can grow there better. I know probiotics help put the gut flora back. That being said, a probiotic will not cure it or get rid of it completely. I also know that other things like staph or strep can start to show up in gliders who are effected. Which came first? The tric or the other issues? We don't know. There are people who believe in both theories.


Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project




Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237262
03/09/12 02:48 AM
03/09/12 02:48 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
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80 acres of paradise in KS
Can you please share the documentation that shows how this is effecting gliders?

Such as "I also know that other things like staph or strep can start to show up in gliders who are effected."

Can you share the documentation that verifies this?

IS this what the "ick" is the joeys have had? Has the tri-trich been proven in these joeys diagnosed with staph and strep?


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Dancing] #1237290
03/09/12 08:18 AM
03/09/12 08:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
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tjlong Offline
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Washington
Originally Posted By: Dancing
Can you please share the documentation that shows how this is effecting gliders?

Such as "I also know that other things like staph or strep can start to show up in gliders who are effected."

Can you share the documentation that verifies this?

IS this what the "ick" is the joeys have had? Has the tri-trich been proven in these joeys diagnosed with staph and strep?

There is no documentation. There haven't been enough cases. Some vets believe staph or strep or yeast in a glider could be primary issue and then, because there is a compromised immune system, trich takes hold as well. Some believe trich is primary and the other things secondary.
No one can say definitively what the cause of 'ick' joeys is at this point.
As I have stated, there is info on trich in other animals, not much is known about it in sugar gliders to date.


Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project




Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237379
03/09/12 12:50 PM
03/09/12 12:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 385
Wallis, Texas
mary h Offline
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Posts: 385
Wallis, Texas
...when effected with this...the cage and EVERYTHING in it should be washed daily. Feed fruits and veggies that have been frozen solid before feeding.

I have been reading these threads and I have a word of advise...there are a lot of us out here who know some about this...but none of us know it all. I think it's wonderfull that they care and want to help...but they are not vets...and sometimes we get opinions that are apposing. The owner of the glider is already scared and worried...and in hearing all of this only makes it worse...which effects the glider. there are cases in years past where this has been cured.

So...find you a vet who knows about this and what to do...and go with what he tells you to do...and do exactly what he tells you to do.

The glider goes on senses and smell...if you are scared...the glider is scared...the glider doesn't need that.If you stay calm and believe in your baby it helps it to fight this.

I think it's wonderfull for people to get on here and help others and I don't mean to offend anyone...but please stop fighting over what it is...what caused it...where it came from and let a good vet handle it. If your vet wants to confer with another vet...Dr. Fronefield would be more that happy to help.

Mary


mary h
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237396
03/09/12 01:15 PM
03/09/12 01:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
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Again...Has the tri-trich been proven in these joeys diagnosed with staph and strep?


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Dancing] #1237408
03/09/12 01:44 PM
03/09/12 01:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
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tjlong Offline
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Washington
Originally Posted By: Dancing
Again...Has the tri-trich been proven in these joeys diagnosed with staph and strep?

Yes, MY glider was diagnoses with Group G Beta Hemolytic Strep s.canis. She is the ONLY glider in my home that has been diagnosed with trich as well. She is just over one year old.

The reason I tested her for anything was that two of the males I tried to pair her with (the only two who were mature or maturing) developed necrosis of the penis. I had a culture and sensitivity done on a cloacal swab and found strep. After that, knowing that it can be a secondary infection or could be a primary causing the body to be open to secondary infections, I did fecal smears with two different vets at two different locations and tric was found on a wet mount.

As for the ick joeys who have had staph and strep. I can only refer back to the attending vets and the lab results that we have been told about.

I am not telling anyone things to try to scare them. I am living it as well. Also, the first line of defense med is metronidazole. If that does not work, I have been told there are 2 alternatives that should be tried. The Strep is a different situation, it has a different antibiotic required. I also can say that, in my own personal experience, a change in diet and addition of probiotics has diminished the number of trich in the gut as the gut flora is replenished and closer to the way it should be.


Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project




Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: tjlong] #1237410
03/09/12 01:51 PM
03/09/12 01:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,714
New Jersey
etrnalsunshinee Offline
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etrnalsunshinee  Offline
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New Jersey
Originally Posted By: tjlong
I also can say that, in my own personal experience, a change in diet and addition of probiotics has diminished the number of trich in the gut as the gut flora is replenished and closer to the way it should be.


What did you change about their diet besides the addition of probiotics so others that may experience this can do that as well? (With their vet's approval)


Amy

:wfb: Micah
:wfb: Momo
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: etrnalsunshinee] #1237415
03/09/12 01:59 PM
03/09/12 01:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
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tjlong Offline
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Washington
Originally Posted By: etrnalsunshinee
Originally Posted By: tjlong
I also can say that, in my own personal experience, a change in diet and addition of probiotics has diminished the number of trich in the gut as the gut flora is replenished and closer to the way it should be.


What did you change about their diet besides the addition of probiotics so others that may experience this can do that as well? (With their vet's approval)

I increased protein up from 14% to about double that and I decreased sugars. I was told by the two vets that the lower amount of protein combine with high sugar content in some diets can cause the gut to change ph balance and be more susceptible to yeast growth (that's why I saw a lot of yeast in a lot of gliders until I changed) as well as to protozoa like giardia and trich. Those things thrive in this type of environment in the gut.

Of course, many vets are not very diet savy which makes this type of thing even harder to deal with. It is all very frustrating and complicated.


Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project




Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237418
03/09/12 02:08 PM
03/09/12 02:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
Glider Explorer
Chris_R  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
I posted this in the other thread so I will just copy/paste it

The PCR's that were done on all the gliders were for ONLY the T.Foetus strain of tritrichamonas. ALL of the samples sent in from everyone came back negative (including Nadines). This is NOT T.Foetus so the PCR testing would have given FALSE negatives. Different labs AND vets have seen this tritrich on a wet mount from animals in different states and it HAS been diagnosed as tritrichamonas. The two labs for Nadine (Idexx and Colorado lab), 2 vets in Washington and now the one in Tx (whom has now looked at more than one sample during treatment and although the numbers are decreasing, treatment is still needed).. <added after> The tx joey isnt responding to the metronidizole like it should, there are 2 other treatment drugs that are used and the vet has been sent the phone number to a consulting vet to see if these other 2 drugs might be more responsive....

A zoologist is helping and expects this to be the T.Muirs strain, IF that is the case, then there is no cure in the other species it effects and is commonly the known cause of "wet tail" syndrome. Flair ups can be treated but it cant ever be cured. The only known way to "break the cycle" is to perform a C-sect so the offspring is not passing through the birth canal where it gets infected. That mother is then culled from the breeding program as is the male that bred her, unfortunately this is not an option in our sugar gliders... Again there is no documentation that while this strain is incurable in other species that it is so in sugar gliders


Tritrich is a single celled organism that reproduces by binary fusion (divides itself down the middle). That "offspring" has the exact same DNA AND Drug resistances that its "parent" had. 1% of tritrichs will normally survive treatment, so as soon as 2nd generation you now have tritrichs that have resistance to the initial treatment drug<s>.

Unfortunately, until we know what the EXACT strain is, get a PCR for it and gather more information from these gliders that are undergoing treatment for an extended amount of time. NO ONE can say that their gliders are cured as with Giardia the numbers can be kept low enough for a wet mount not to show those "swimmers" <again an afterthought>... out of the 100+ known strains of trichamonas ONLY about 5 are known to be pathogenic (causing harm) T.foetus is one, the human version T. vaginalis <sp?> STD, T. muirs, the bird one T.gallinea <sp?> and a newly discovered trichamonas in prarie dogs

Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237419
03/09/12 02:09 PM
03/09/12 02:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Thank you Tracy. I'm very sorry you are having to go through this with your gliders. I can't imagine how difficult it is.

Is there a difference between tritrichomonas and trichomonas? If so, does it matter as far as this discussion and how they could effect gliders?

My focus here I guess is on these "ick" joeys. They are being sent to new homes after they "recover" and I've been concerned all along if this is wise. I was asked repeatedly to sell one of my joeys to be the mate to one of these "ick" joeys and I refused feeling that it wasn't safe for my joey. I also don't think any of these "ick" joeys should be put into breeding situations.

If tri-trich or trich is at play here, then this needs to be addressed and why I was asking if the "ick" joeys were diagnosed with tri-trich as well or if they were tested for it at all. I simply don't know if they have or not.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237421
03/09/12 02:12 PM
03/09/12 02:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Chris...do you think the joeys that have had this "ick" should be in breeding situations even if they appear to have fully recovered and appear healthy?


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237427
03/09/12 02:25 PM
03/09/12 02:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
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tjlong Offline
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Washington
Dancing, I have been asked to sell a joey to be mates with one of the ick joeys as well. I declined too.

IMO, and it is only mine, we don't know enough about what is going on with those joeys to put them into breeding situations. If they were mine, I would not sell them to anyone to breed. That is MY opinion.

That being said, we just don't KNOW. It is a sad situation for everyone involved. It is definitely stressful! I don't even have ick joeys here. I have Grace who has trich and strep. I have two males who have necrosis of the penis after being with Grace. I have one male who has yet to get his mate pregnant even though he mates with her. That male was housed with Grace prior to his maturity. He is negative on any and all tests.

ANYTHING I can do to help expedite us finding a test that can be done other than direct smear I am open to doing. I am in contact with other people who are working behind the scenes to help us find a facility to take this project on.

Now, here is another thought. This could be benign...not saying it is. It could be widespread...not saying it is. It could be that many gliders carry it but it doesn't pop up unless there is the right environment and situation to cause it to do so. The first ick joey we know of was found in 2003 so this isn't something new, it's just not something we have seen a lot.

The breeders and owners who have put their testing out here to be seen are ones who I appreciate. They do not have to share, just like I don't have to. But the DID! They want to find what is best for our gliders just as much as you and I.


Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project




Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237429
03/09/12 02:30 PM
03/09/12 02:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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Chris_R  Offline
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Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Tritrichamonas is just a "subspecies" of Trichamonas, to define one just has to count the number of flagella, 3 to 5 flagella is what is seen (tritrich is 3, pentatrich is 5 etc)

Dancing, IMHO absolutely NOT... Again IMHO, all that is doing is making sure this organism is well established in our glider populations... In fact, me personally (since I dont have it here) I have closed my doors, my joeys arent even going to homes that have gliders and are only going to "newbie" non-glider owners (or homes that I personally KNOW are clear), Im THAT scared of it. Ive always been scared of these "reproduction by binary fusion" organisms because of the fact that 2nd generation is already resistant to meds, Ive always personally thought this sort of organism would be the next great epidemic to drastically reduce populations ( kinda like the black plague did)

Last edited by Chris_R; 03/09/12 02:37 PM.
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Dancing] #1237430
03/09/12 02:33 PM
03/09/12 02:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,832
Big Sandy TN
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict
Sherri  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,832
Big Sandy TN
Originally Posted By: Dancing
My focus here I guess is on these "ick" joeys. They are being sent to new homes after they "recover" and I've been concerned all along if this is wise. I was asked repeatedly to sell one of my joeys to be the mate to one of these "ick" joeys and I refused feeling that it wasn't safe for my joey. I also don't think any of these "ick" joeys should be put into breeding situations.



This is why I hate it when people (including myself) use the term "ick" to classify these joey's. Many of them have been diagnosed as having something completely different from each other and only a FEW were ever initially diagnosed with tritrich. So to lump ALL of these joey's to be associated with tritrich is completely false. And only causes more fear and confusion to anyone who is not understanding the differences in the diagnosis of these joey's.

I have had 3 joey's that have had yeast (one passed), all 3 were from the same parents. None of my other joey's were affected. One of those joey's will be breeding and the other will not. Who is it to say that EVERY joey should not be bred?


sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


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Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Sherri] #1237436
03/09/12 02:45 PM
03/09/12 02:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
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tjlong Offline
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Washington
Originally Posted By: Sherri
Originally Posted By: Dancing
My focus here I guess is on these "ick" joeys. They are being sent to new homes after they "recover" and I've been concerned all along if this is wise. I was asked repeatedly to sell one of my joeys to be the mate to one of these "ick" joeys and I refused feeling that it wasn't safe for my joey. I also don't think any of these "ick" joeys should be put into breeding situations.



This is why I hate it when people (including myself) use the term "ick" to classify these joey's. Many of them have been diagnosed as having something completely different from each other and only a FEW were ever initially diagnosed with tritrich. So to lump ALL of these joey's to be associated with tritrich is completely false. And only causes more fear and confusion to anyone who is not understanding the differences in the diagnosis of these joey's.

I have had 3 joey's that have had yeast (one passed), all 3 were from the same parents. None of my other joey's were affected. One of those joey's will be breeding and the other will not. Who is it to say that EVERY joey should not be bred?



Sherri, I think we are offering opinions. Like I said before, until there is a test that can definitely say, ""yes" or "no" your gliders have or do not have trich." We just don't know who does or does not have it. That's why it is frustrating.
People and other animals carry parasites. Some they carry forever and never have a problem. Is this one of those situations? No one knows. Your yeast babies have had a tough go of things. I agree that they haven't all had the same diagnosis. They do all look similar and have similar physical traits though, don't they? I believe that's where the 'ick' term came from. It doesn't mean they are all the same to be sure!

Last edited by tjlong; 03/09/12 03:19 PM.

Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project




Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: tjlong] #1237439
03/09/12 02:55 PM
03/09/12 02:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,832
Big Sandy TN
Sherri Offline
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Sherri  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,832
Big Sandy TN
Originally Posted By: tjlong
Originally Posted By: Sherri
Originally Posted By: Dancing
My focus here I guess is on these "ick" joeys. They are being sent to new homes after they "recover" and I've been concerned all along if this is wise. I was asked repeatedly to sell one of my joeys to be the mate to one of these "ick" joeys and I refused feeling that it wasn't safe for my joey. I also don't think any of these "ick" joeys should be put into breeding situations.



This is why I hate it when people (including myself) use the term "ick" to classify these joey's. Many of them have been diagnosed as having something completely different from each other and only a FEW were ever initially diagnosed with tritrich. So to lump ALL of these joey's to be associated with tritrich is completely false. And only causes more fear and confusion to anyone who is not understanding the differences in the diagnosis of these joey's.

I have had 3 joey's that have had yeast (one passed), all 3 were from the same parents. None of my other joey's were affected. One of those joey's will be breeding and the other will not. Who is it to say that EVERY joey should not be bred?



Sherri, I think we are offering opinions. Like I said before, until there is a test that can definitely say "yes" or "no" your gliders have trich.


So are you saying that MY gliders have trich, even though I have a test report that say's they don't have anything?


sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237440
03/09/12 02:56 PM
03/09/12 02:56 PM
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Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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Northwest Missouri
Also I would like to state that unless the trich is "in bloom" a wet mount is NOT definative proof that "all is clear", in fact, it is ONLY diagnosed about 15% of the time on wet mount (meaning out of 100 known POSITIVE samples 85 of those are MISSED)...

To get a PCR test that is more accurate results (because it test for EXACT DNA of that organism and causes a reaction) involves a long EXPENSIVE process... First the perfect growing medium must be found, enough grown that a DNA sequence can be found that is definative to the organism, then you have to come up with the right polymeres to make up the PCR test for it...

We just dont know enough about it to make ANY assumptions (including IF its the cause of ICK), until further testing has been done.

Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Sherri] #1237444
03/09/12 03:13 PM
03/09/12 03:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sherri
Originally Posted By: tjlong
Originally Posted By: Sherri
Originally Posted By: Dancing
My focus here I guess is on these "ick" joeys. They are being sent to new homes after they "recover" and I've been concerned all along if this is wise. I was asked repeatedly to sell one of my joeys to be the mate to one of these "ick" joeys and I refused feeling that it wasn't safe for my joey. I also don't think any of these "ick" joeys should be put into breeding situations.



This is why I hate it when people (including myself) use the term "ick" to classify these joey's. Many of them have been diagnosed as having something completely different from each other and only a FEW were ever initially diagnosed with tritrich. So to lump ALL of these joey's to be associated with tritrich is completely false. And only causes more fear and confusion to anyone who is not understanding the differences in the diagnosis of these joey's.

I have had 3 joey's that have had yeast (one passed), all 3 were from the same parents. None of my other joey's were affected. One of those joey's will be breeding and the other will not. Who is it to say that EVERY joey should not be bred?



Sherri, I think we are offering opinions. Like I said before, until there is a test that can definitely say "yes" or "no" your gliders have trich.


So are you saying that MY gliders have trich, even though I have a test report that say's they don't have anything?


You tested for T.foetus correct? ALL PCR tests on animals (even the ones that had a positive wet mount) have come back NEGATIVE. All vets that have been confered with about this fact have come back to say that it can safely be assumed that this is NOT T.foetus, and the PCR test ONLY tests for the T.foetus strain, any other strain like T.Muirs would in fact come up NEGATIVE on this PCR.... also, read my statement above as to why wet mounts are not definative as to ruling it out completely, these are KNOWN and PROVEN FACTS....

Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237445
03/09/12 03:16 PM
03/09/12 03:16 PM
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Posts: 3,832
Big Sandy TN
Sherri Offline
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Let me understand this correctly then, even though mine have NEVER displayed any diarreah I need to continually take them in for testing until I get a positive for tritrich? I just want to make sure that I am understanding what you and Tracy are saying.


sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Sherri] #1237447
03/09/12 03:21 PM
03/09/12 03:21 PM
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Posts: 1,710
Washington
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tjlong Offline
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Washington
Originally Posted By: Sherri
Let me understand this correctly then, even though mine have NEVER displayed any diarreah I need to continually take them in for testing until I get a positive for tritrich? I just want to make sure that I am understanding what you and Tracy are saying.


Sherri sorry! I fixed my post to read a little more clearly. It didn't say what I meant it to say. NO, I didn't mean "your" gliders have trich. It was supposed to be a hypothetical saying we don't know one way or the other for certain until there is a test that can find it when it isn't blooming. A wet mount is just not easy to find it on.

I am so sorry you took it the wrong way. I said it the wrong way. I hope that it reads more clearly now.


Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project




Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237450
03/09/12 03:26 PM
03/09/12 03:26 PM
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Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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I dont think Tracy NOR myself is stating that. Im just responding to the fact that you said you have test results proving your negative, when those results are NOT definative to the situation at hand... Call the tx lab, as Tracy DID, they will tell you the same, if its not the strain of T.foetus the PCR test can and will produce false negatives...

Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237451
03/09/12 03:26 PM
03/09/12 03:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
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Sherri, I think using the term "ick" is appropriate at this point because of how the joeys look. They look icky. Whether or not they all look icky from the same reason really, truthfully, has not been determined. Nadine's joeys tested positive for one thing, your's for another and then yet another's joeys for yet another thing. But as I'm understanding it, it could be all related to a strain of trich that has NOT been tested for and therefore, missed.

We just don't know.

All we DO know is that these joeys ALL look "icky".

We all want definative answers and so far, that hasn't happened. Not from lack of trying on each of "your" parts (your being those with the "ick" joeys and those involved in trying to research it).

My heart goes out to each of you. Abigale is looking so much better and my hope is that each of these joeys lives a very long healthy life and that no other joeys present with this "ick". I think it is amazing the love and dedication shown to each of these little joeys in helping them get better. It is a long process and a difficult road. In many other "animal" breeding circles, those joeys and their parents would just be culled and call it a day with no effort being spent to save them. I don't think that is the answer by any means as nothing is learned from it. Nothing gained by their little lives suffering such a rough start.

But at the same time, I don't think they should be breeding UNLESS by someone VERY experienced not only with breeding but with this "ick" and that has the good vets available to do the testing so they can see if it does pass on to the next generation. And by someone willing to keep them and their offspring. Less face it, there are few people in the "glider community" with that experience and those (vet) resources.

We all are going to have our opinions regarding this "ick" and if the joeys should go on to breed. MY opinion is they should not simply because there are to many unanswered questions involved. We have healthy gliders that can go on to breed, I just don't think this is any more necessary than breeding "wiggle" babies or gliders with 50% coi's. AGAIN...UNLESS by someone experienced and for "research" purposes and ONLY if those gliders are loved first and foremost for WHO they are.

As for doors closed...I'm not taking in any gliders what so ever (and haven't for a long time now). I've always been picky about the homes my joeys go to. (again, Sherri, you know I trust you, you have some of my gliders) I am getting my remaining two intact boys neutered this month. But because they are still intact, there could (probably will be) a few more joeys that will need homes. I want to learn as much as I can so that I can continue to find only the best homes for them.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237452
03/09/12 03:38 PM
03/09/12 03:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
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roseville, mi
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hwh4ev Offline
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tracy, can you tell me what diet you changed to? or you using the same one, just adding more protein and less sugar.

i am going to pm you.

regards,
nancy in detroit


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237455
03/09/12 03:43 PM
03/09/12 03:43 PM
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Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
kjgoulet Offline
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North Dakota
I get that we're saying the "ick" joeys because well honestly they all look icky. Would Sherri's joey that will be breeding maybe give us more insight on this and if it is passed down the generations? That should there ever be a test that can accurately test for trich or tri trich, we will know for sure? I'm not saying take all these babies and let them start reproducing but like Dancing said, do it with someone who is very experienced.

I personally wouldn't sell my joeys if they had "ick" to breed but that's just my outlook on it. Everybody has differing opinions..


Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237465
03/09/12 04:13 PM
03/09/12 04:13 PM
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roseville, mi
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hwh4ev Offline
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i would say that nadines joeys (the ick/tritec joeys) that have been sold and are/will be bred will also tell us if it passes on to the next generation.

i pray not.

regards,
nancy in detroit
p.s. i dont think the ick joeys should be bred as i
stated awhile ago in a different forum. i do think
they could go to homes as pet only in a non breeding
home.


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237470
03/09/12 04:27 PM
03/09/12 04:27 PM
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Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
kjgoulet Offline
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kjgoulet  Offline
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North Dakota
I'm with you Nancy, I would sell them to be loved on and spoiled versus stress with babies on their bodies. But everybody will have their own opinion.. What's that saying, can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink lol! We can all push our views on it but in the end it's no up to us unless we're contacted to put a mate with said joey.


Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237489
03/09/12 05:28 PM
03/09/12 05:28 PM
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Posts: 3,832
Big Sandy TN
Sherri Offline
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I can't speak for everyone that has had joey's affected with this, I can only speak of what "I" know.

I know that one of my "ick" babies that is being bred is staying here and being bred by me. "I" will be doing everything in my power to make sure that the joey's are healthy if or when they leave my home.

I know that one of Nadines gliders is going into a breeding program and I know that the person that got that joey is going to do the same as I am.

I know that the 2 of us do plan on neutering the males "IF" there is a problem with breeding these 2 affected gliders.

What I "don't" know is what has happened to all the other affected joey's out there that have had "ick". There are quite a few more joey's out there that have or had this that people aren't talking about openly.

And for Nadine and I to be constantly brought up because we ARE the ones that are keeping people informed is really not fair to us considering the amount of others out there that have been affected, that haven't said anything.

Yes I'm breeding Bits, no I'm not breeding Abigail. Abigail has been through enough. I WILL be doing blood work on Bits, Abigail and their momma regularly and what other random/scheduled tests I need to do to make sure that they remain healthy and have no long term affects.

I do admit things that go on in my house when it comes to my gliders. I do not point fingers, I do not try to connect the dots and cause a panic, I do not try and blame diet or try to link it to a gathering or a vets office or lineage. I will not cause an uproar that its anyone elses fault but my own that my gliders got sick.

I do not obssess over spotless cages, I did not quarentine my gliders who were affected and I did not change diets.

All of my other gliders are perfectly healthy and none of my other joey's were affected. I did not panic and cause any more undo stress on my other gliders.

I am a firm believer that stress is the root to most all sickness. It has been proven with people, so why not the same in animals?


sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237494
03/09/12 05:53 PM
03/09/12 05:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
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hwh4ev Offline
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roseville, mi
sherri,
you have been very up front with all of us. the other people that have had this problem are silent and yet another is not telling the whole story of all their
test results.

i respect you and some of the others that are keeping us updated, and so do a whole lot of other glider people.

i didnt think anybody was singling you out but you and tracy are the only ones that are telling us what is going on and with updates, nobody else is- that has been affected
by this.

i do hope your joeys are all very healthy.

people are afraid of this because we dont know what
the future holds for these joeys, but time will tell the
story.

good luck and hugs sent to you,
nancy in detroit


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237499
03/09/12 06:08 PM
03/09/12 06:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
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80 acres of paradise in KS
I couldn't agree more with Nancy. Sherri, I don't mean to point you out as a "negative" thing, only because you ARE being so open and honest with everyone (an example of how the others should be) about your joeys.

We know of your joeys, Nadine's joeys and Tracy's. There ARE others out there that are not posting about them and that is sad because it limits our ability to find answers. I can only hope that they are working behind the scenes to help find the answers.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237503
03/09/12 06:18 PM
03/09/12 06:18 PM
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Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
kjgoulet Offline
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North Dakota
I too Sherri wasn't trying to say anything negative about you, just what I would personally do. What you've done for Abigail (saw the pics and she looks amazing btw) and are continuing to do by keeping everyone informed, is beyond what could've been asked. I in NO way was trying to upset you hug2

With that said, your last post alone just shows how passionate you are about this. I didn't realize that Bits was in your home being bred, I'll keep all these behbehz in my thoughts and hope everyone has healthy joeys from here on out smile

PS. Abigail has stolen my heart lol!


Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237505
03/09/12 06:23 PM
03/09/12 06:23 PM
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Posts: 3,832
Big Sandy TN
Sherri Offline
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I know that people aren't specifically trying to point us out. I really do believe that. I also just believe that since we are the only ones that have come forward, we are automatically thought of. Thats all I meant by it. There are quite a few others that have had "ick" babies that haven't said anything publicly and this is exactly why.

Nadine and I will always have a stigma of being the breeders with "ick". I guess that is something that I will have to live with.


I also don't think its fair to label all joey's with "ick" as having tritrich (no matter what the strain)until its proven that said joey's do in fact have it.


sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Sherri] #1237507
03/09/12 06:28 PM
03/09/12 06:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
kjgoulet Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sherri


I also don't think its fair to label all joey's with "ick" as having tritrich (no matter what the strain)until its proven that said joey's do in fact have it.


That is true.. It's like saying all construction workers are sexy lmao! Which isn't always true tounge


Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237513
03/09/12 06:58 PM
03/09/12 06:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
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80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
Nadine and I will always have a stigma of being the breeders with "ick".


I don't see this as a "stigma" I see it as an unfortunate event. What I DO see is how you two have fought for the health of your joeys. I see this as a positive.

I also agree that the "ick" joeys should not be labled as having trich UNTIL it is proven. But by the same standards, it needs to be kept in mind that it could be and these joeys need to be "followed" to see if it turns up again with them or their offspring (or even cage mates). Not as a negative thing but to LEARN from them.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237514
03/09/12 07:02 PM
03/09/12 07:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline
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So--what is the suggested quarantine on the tri trich? Some people here are saying it *could* take years to be rid of. Does that mean a breeder with tri trich should be locked down? No joeys adopted out to prevent the spread, and no new gliders in to become infected? What happens if we find out this tri trich really isn't going to go away completely for years or ever? If the infected gliders are adopted out, it will just spread further. I can see how this parasite could become a parasite that is found in every glider if individuals from infected populations are allowed to leave and sire new infections in the next home, and so on. What does a breeder with many breeding pairs do in a situation like that? Neuter everyone and keep the last wave of joeys and the parents? It doesn't sound like letting any of them leave your home is a responsible idea until we have a clear picture of the nature of this buggy and how it interacts with a sugar glider's system...but where does that leave someone that has a large breeding program? What if someone like, say, Priscilla got trich? She is not going to turn her breeding population into pets. It seems to me like there is a high risk someone like Priscilla might get infected, too.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237517
03/09/12 07:28 PM
03/09/12 07:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
kjgoulet Offline
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kjgoulet  Offline
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North Dakota
I thought Priscilla had a case that was similar to the "ick" joeys we've been seeing recently, except her case was a while back? I don't have my notes (yes my dorky behind was taking notes when this first started to appear lol) downstairs with me at the moment. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure her name came up as someone who had it in the past and nobody knew what it really was?


Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237523
03/09/12 07:44 PM
03/09/12 07:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
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hwh4ev Offline
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yes, priscilla but it was around in 2003.

regards,
nancy in detroit


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237524
03/09/12 07:44 PM
03/09/12 07:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
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roseville, mi
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hwh4ev Offline
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duplicate.

Last edited by hwh4ev; 03/09/12 07:45 PM.

regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237528
03/09/12 07:50 PM
03/09/12 07:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline
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Were those joeys sold as breeders as well?


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237530
03/09/12 07:51 PM
03/09/12 07:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,516
North Dakota
kjgoulet Offline
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kjgoulet  Offline
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North Dakota
dunno


Kristi

Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Chris_R] #1237542
03/09/12 08:15 PM
03/09/12 08:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline OP
Tech Admn
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North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: Chris_R
The only known way to "break the cycle" is to perform a C-sect so the offspring is not passing through the birth canal where it gets infected. That mother is then culled from the breeding program as is the male that bred her, unfortunately this is not an option in our sugar gliders...


I assume by this comment, that it is only passed through the mating and birthing process? If that's the case, then I'm going to disagree with the majority of your comment quoted above. Obviously we cannot do c-sections on gliders - that I agree with. But if a breeder finds they definitively have tri-trich, then IMO it would be the responsible thing to neuter that male and keep that pair together as a non-breeding pair. That would break the cycle for that pair. Then, that breeder would have the unfortunate responsibility of updating the database and notifying the owners of any previous joeys so they can be informed as well.

I do realize though, that the problem is accurate diagnosis.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237543
03/09/12 08:16 PM
03/09/12 08:16 PM
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North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline OP
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I also assume that if it's only passed through mating/birthing, no other gliders in the same household would be at risk. Correct?


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237563
03/09/12 08:54 PM
03/09/12 08:54 PM
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Minneapolis, MN
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When the ick was at my home. It was a bacteria on their skin, and it spread when I was weighing joeys (I wasn't as picky about handwashing between every single cage as I am now). Only the joeys that I was handling got icky. Once I started to wash my hands between every single cage, it didn't affect any more joeys.

And for an official update on the ick joeys from my house and their siblings:

Tommy - grew perfectly healthy after ick, I felt he was fine to breed. His owner will neuter him so fast your head would spin if he were to have any problems with himself or any joeys. He had another fecal sent to Idexx before he left and it was perfect. He also had a set of twin brothers that were perfectly fine.

Cadence - He healed perfectly and completely, he never had to be pulled from his parents or any major complications (besides not eating for a little while). He is going for breeding as well, and his new mommy will also neuter if there are any complications. He has a younger brother who is 6 weeks OOP now. Reagan is perfectly fine and will stay here.

Kismet - She took the longest to heal, but she did. She went to a pet only home with Tommy's neutered brothers. Her parents know to contact me if there are any problems, and we are checking in often. Kismet lived with her parents until she was about 4 months old. Her sister was 4 weeks when
Kismet left. her sister did not have any problems at all, she was actually a fat joey.

Romeo - He died from a tube feeding accident while in the worst part of the ick. I got a necropsy on him, and that is where the idea of tritrich was dispelled (until now). If he had an intestinal parasite, the lining of his intestines would have shown clear signs of infection... there were none. There was also nothing to see besides the bacterias (one native, one the problem). His parents are going to be retired, but its due to her milk production and NOT the ick. His little sister needed to be hand-fed but stayed with her parents during that time. She never got the ick or any other problems (went as pet only with Kismet's sister).

All my other cages were unaffected and continue to be so. We treated with Baytril and (when we were thinking trich) Metronidizole. The healthy joeys (after ick) never got the metronidizole, and it didn't seem to do much for my colony.

Everything here started with a UTI in Cadence's mom. It was treated, but when she peed on him, she contaminated him with that bacteria. We had a high humidity level at that time, which allowed the bacteria to spread and thrive. Once each joey was on baytril, they recovered quickly. My joeys NEVER lost their fur (although Cadence's parents pulled most of his belly fur off) and they all recovered from their ordeal.

I think it is about responsibility... but how many people breed and sell gliders who have had giardia? The same vets who said that tritrich is incurable ALSO believe that giardia is incurable.


Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
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Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237622
03/09/12 10:53 PM
03/09/12 10:53 PM
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Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
Originally Posted By: Chris_R
The only known way to "break the cycle" is to perform a C-sect so the offspring is not passing through the birth canal where it gets infected. That mother is then culled from the breeding program as is the male that bred her, unfortunately this is not an option in our sugar gliders...


I assume by this comment, that it is only passed through the mating and birthing process? If that's the case, then I'm going to disagree with the majority of your comment quoted above. Obviously we cannot do c-sections on gliders - that I agree with. But if a breeder finds they definitively have tri-trich, then IMO it would be the responsible thing to neuter that male and keep that pair together as a non-breeding pair. That would break the cycle for that pair. Then, that breeder would have the unfortunate responsibility of updating the database and notifying the owners of any previous joeys so they can be informed as well.

I do realize though, that the problem is accurate diagnosis.


It is believed to be so in the other species, but unfortunetly they also do NOT act the same as our gliders do... When I have spoken to different researchers about this I explained that our gliders groom each other (yes, other species do this and it is not considered to be a means of transmission amongst these other species), that they are scent animals and even the females will urinate while rubbing their cloaca on the bars of the cage, at which point, another glider will commonly come RIGHT behind and mark over this spot with their own scent by doing the same. Given just that scenerio, I could not be promised that it would NOT be carried over to the others that way, as it would be considered a "sexual act" in that regards (transferring of bodily fluids via a kind of direct contact)... Hope that makes sense and helps to explain it more, I am TERRIBLE at trying to get my thoughts into written word whilst not getting to techinical on everyone and have you walking away scratching your heads saying "HUH??? what the heck is she talking about??" lol

Also need to add that alot of these other species also have two different "exits" for bodily fluids, one port for urine which is also access for "sexual acts" and one port for feces. Our gliders have one port, the cloaca in which both urine and feces exit and in which the "sexual acts" are done (sorry for my lack of terms here but my brain is refusing to bring anything forward, grandson wore me the heck out and Im running on empty lol)


Last edited by Chris_R; 03/09/12 11:07 PM.
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Chris_R] #1237641
03/09/12 11:56 PM
03/09/12 11:56 PM
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St. Johns, Florida
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I also posted this link over on LGG for anyone who may want to contact these guys and find out about testing. They specialize in Exotics and I hear they run some pretty thorough testings. I'm sure if given the opportunity, they will be able to find out what is going on or at least rule out what is not going on.

http://zoologix.com/zoo/index.htm


Peggy
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Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237643
03/10/12 12:02 AM
03/10/12 12:02 AM
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North Central Ohio
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That makes sense. So that brings another thought to mind.

1 - If gliders do not co-habitate an area, then it should not be able to be transmitted to each other. Meaning, if I have two cages, one cage couldn't get it from the other. Correct?

2 - Playtime would have to be in glider specific areas, not shared. That would mean a separate tent for the "infected" gliders. Otherwise, them marking the tent and another cage following behind, would become infected? Also, as in a quarantine situation, you would always play with the non-infected cage first.

3 - If you were able to keep the infected cage completely separate from the other cage, would their toys/fleece be interchangeable between the infected and non-infected cage? Or would it "live" through washing and sanitizing?


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237647
03/10/12 12:13 AM
03/10/12 12:13 AM
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Kilgore, Texas
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Good post Mary, Peggy found us a link to a laboratory. We have to get to the bottom of Cabs issue.
http://zoologix.com/zoo/index.htm

Last edited by GliderNursery; 03/10/12 12:35 AM. Reason: edited text

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Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237648
03/10/12 12:15 AM
03/10/12 12:15 AM
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Raymond, NH, USA
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If it's only spread by mating & birthing why can't the original poster in the thread adopt cora's gliders?


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Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237653
03/10/12 12:26 AM
03/10/12 12:26 AM
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Kilgore, Texas
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because even if he is neutered they still try to mate. One of the girls was handraised from maybe 4 weeks oop so her system may not be strong enough to fight it off. . AND we dont know which strain he has to know exactly how its transmitted. Different strains are transmitted differently. None are airborn.


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Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: JeremysDad] #1237656
03/10/12 12:39 AM
03/10/12 12:39 AM
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North Central Ohio
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Thanks for the link Peggy! Maybe some additional testing can be done to get some definitive answers! smile

Originally Posted By: JeremysDad
If it's only spread by mating & birthing why can't the original poster in the thread adopt cora's gliders?


According to Chris_R, it's possible to be spread through urine/fecal matter since it uses the same tract. If that's the case, any glider in the same cage/play area could become infected.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Chris_R] #1237667
03/10/12 01:12 AM
03/10/12 01:12 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chris_R
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
Originally Posted By: Chris_R
The only known way to "break the cycle" is to perform a C-sect so the offspring is not passing through the birth canal where it gets infected. That mother is then culled from the breeding program as is the male that bred her, unfortunately this is not an option in our sugar gliders...


I assume by this comment, that it is only passed through the mating and birthing process? If that's the case, then I'm going to disagree with the majority of your comment quoted above. Obviously we cannot do c-sections on gliders - that I agree with. But if a breeder finds they definitively have tri-trich, then IMO it would be the responsible thing to neuter that male and keep that pair together as a non-breeding pair. That would break the cycle for that pair. Then, that breeder would have the unfortunate responsibility of updating the database and notifying the owners of any previous joeys so they can be informed as well.

I do realize though, that the problem is accurate diagnosis.


It is believed to be so in the other species, but unfortunetly they also do NOT act the same as our gliders do... When I have spoken to different researchers about this I explained that our gliders groom each other (yes, other species do this and it is not considered to be a means of transmission amongst these other species), that they are scent animals and even the females will urinate while rubbing their cloaca on the bars of the cage, at which point, another glider will commonly come RIGHT behind and mark over this spot with their own scent by doing the same. Given just that scenerio, I could not be promised that it would NOT be carried over to the others that way, as it would be considered a "sexual act" in that regards (transferring of bodily fluids via a kind of direct contact)... Hope that makes sense and helps to explain it more, I am TERRIBLE at trying to get my thoughts into written word whilst not getting to techinical on everyone and have you walking away scratching your heads saying "HUH??? what the heck is she talking about??" lol

Also need to add that alot of these other species also have two different "exits" for bodily fluids, one port for urine which is also access for "sexual acts" and one port for feces. Our gliders have one port, the cloaca in which both urine and feces exit and in which the "sexual acts" are done (sorry for my lack of terms here but my brain is refusing to bring anything forward, grandson wore me the heck out and Im running on empty lol)



Loud and clear to me! Makes a lot of sense, thanks for the explanation.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237672
03/10/12 01:33 AM
03/10/12 01:33 AM
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Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
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Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
That makes sense. So that brings another thought to mind.

1 - If gliders do not co-habitate an area, then it should not be able to be transmitted to each other. Meaning, if I have two cages, one cage couldn't get it from the other. Correct?

2 - Playtime would have to be in glider specific areas, not shared. That would mean a separate tent for the "infected" gliders. Otherwise, them marking the tent and another cage following behind, would become infected? Also, as in a quarantine situation, you would always play with the non-infected cage first.



3 - If you were able to keep the infected cage completely separate from the other cage, would their toys/fleece be interchangeable between the infected and non-infected cage? Or would it "live" through washing and sanitizing?



1. Correct as long as you try to use as sterile of a technique when going between cages (ie WASH YOUR HANDS)

2. Again, correct

3. Trich doesnt have a cyst stage (almost bomb proof shell_, so normal washing and drying should absolutely kill it

Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Chris_R] #1237678
03/10/12 01:48 AM
03/10/12 01:48 AM
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Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chris_R
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
That makes sense. So that brings another thought to mind.

1 - If gliders do not co-habitate an area, then it should not be able to be transmitted to each other. Meaning, if I have two cages, one cage couldn't get it from the other. Correct?

2 - Playtime would have to be in glider specific areas, not shared. That would mean a separate tent for the "infected" gliders. Otherwise, them marking the tent and another cage following behind, would become infected? Also, as in a quarantine situation, you would always play with the non-infected cage first.



3 - If you were able to keep the infected cage completely separate from the other cage, would their toys/fleece be interchangeable between the infected and non-infected cage? Or would it "live" through washing and sanitizing?



1. Correct as long as you try to use as sterile of a technique when going between cages (ie WASH YOUR HANDS)

2. Again, correct

3. Trich doesnt have a cyst stage (almost bomb proof shell_, so normal washing and drying should absolutely kill it


Would freezing an item be a reliable way of killing the parasite? I'm just thinking, if you washed the plastic toys and wanted to be sure, you could stick them in a bag and pop them in the freezer, would that work?


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237732
03/10/12 10:02 AM
03/10/12 10:02 AM
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Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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Northwest Missouri
Sticking them in the sun would be a more viable option, even Giardia cyts are subsceptible to UV rays, given enough time and making sure every little nook has had its time in the sun, I dry my coonie cages (wildlife rescue) all day long in the sun once Ive sterilized them, turning every few hours to make sure to get all those crannies....

Everyone that knows me... knows how adamant I am about NOT taking risks of transmission of the raccoon round worm called Baylisascaris

Also, most toys are plastic, freezing them could make the plastic brittle

Trich is not a hardy little critter outside of its host. Normally it dies within the hour (20-30 min average). While in the host most trichs eat the hosts carbs and produce a byproduct from eating the host carbs that is a caustic ammonia (smells like pee!), this reduces the PH in the gut. This not only sets up the gut for its own "bloom" but other oppertunistic organisms to bloom also (yeast, staph, strep) and for some of those other naturally occuring "bad" gut flora (remember it takes a balance of the good and the bad for a healthy gut)to "bloom" over the good. There are actually certain "bad yeast" (and others) that will via against the Trich and take over, because its "stronger" than the Trich. Although it wont completely wipe out the Trich, it can drastically reduce the Trichs numbers to something that would not be seen without a PCR. Also why adding probiotics to the treatment can be a vital "turn around" point, because a normal ph gut will also help to keep everything else "at bay".

Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1237867
03/10/12 06:36 PM
03/10/12 06:36 PM
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Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline
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What about a UV light? Would it be strong enough if you wanted to leave it underneath a UV light for a while, and turn it the same way? How long would be ideal? I know people around my area, or Tracy's, wouldn't always be able to use the sun. Up here in the NW we can go for weeks without real sun.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: kitsune] #1237891
03/10/12 08:17 PM
03/10/12 08:17 PM
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Washington
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Originally Posted By: kitsune
What about a UV light? Would it be strong enough if you wanted to leave it underneath a UV light for a while, and turn it the same way? How long would be ideal? I know people around my area, or Tracy's, wouldn't always be able to use the sun. Up here in the NW we can go for weeks without real sun.

Hey! We had sunshine 2 days this week!


Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
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Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1238418
03/12/12 08:32 PM
03/12/12 08:32 PM
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Northeast U.S.
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Sherri,

Just wanted to say that for myself, I certainly would never see you (or Nadine) as having a "stigma" attached to you. If I was in the market to buy gliders, you'd be on the top of my list BECAUSE of the amazing way you've battled and fought tooth and nail to make sure your babies were healthy and happy. It's because of your honesty, diligence, and love for your peanuts that would make me WANT to buy from you. Don't discredit how great and forthcoming and honest you've been by using that awful word, stigma. Your reputation as a breeder in my eyes has only gotten better through this circus-like experience.

Much love to you and your babies!


Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1240887
03/19/12 04:45 PM
03/19/12 04:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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Northwest Missouri
There is now a PCR test that is not strain specific that can be used... Both initial tests of gliders that were vet diagnosed with a tritrich via wet mount (one in washington and one in texas) have now come back in POSITIVE on the PCR test. ALthough it does not identify the strain we can pretty much rule out that it is NOT the t.foetus strain (based on the fact that t.foetus strain testing has come back negative)

Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1240890
03/19/12 04:59 PM
03/19/12 04:59 PM
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Texas
Countryncrafty Offline
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As Chris said, Cab tested positive for tritrichonomas frown I asked them WHCIH strain but they don't test for that-just if there is tritrichonomas. I am currently looking for a place that does test for strains but so far no such luck. If anyone can tell me a place that tests for specific strains please let me know!--Esp if they can also tell me what to do. My veterinarian is thinking about putting Cab on Ronidizole which kills all protazoa but has never been tested on gliders that she knows of so I want to know if their are other (already known) options.


Danielle E
:grey: Brandi, Cinch, Dallie, Jade, Jasper, Kaycee, Sangria,
:wfb: Captain, Chardonnay, Jack, J.D., Jean, Jim, June
:bb: Laurabeth, Almanzo
:leu: Doe
:rbridge: Cab

Country'n'Crafty's Gliders'n'Goods
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1240908
03/19/12 05:30 PM
03/19/12 05:30 PM
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Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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Danielle, have your vet contact Dr Cathy Delaney (she already has the number) as she listed two other treatments that she is going to try on another positive glider and I dont believe either one of them was Ronidizole

Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1240918
03/19/12 05:44 PM
03/19/12 05:44 PM
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Texas
Countryncrafty Offline
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I think I'm annoying my vet honestly lol.


Danielle E
:grey: Brandi, Cinch, Dallie, Jade, Jasper, Kaycee, Sangria,
:wfb: Captain, Chardonnay, Jack, J.D., Jean, Jim, June
:bb: Laurabeth, Almanzo
:leu: Doe
:rbridge: Cab

Country'n'Crafty's Gliders'n'Goods
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1240924
03/19/12 06:12 PM
03/19/12 06:12 PM
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Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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When I talked to her she came across as very open to consulting with anyone with more knowledge/treatment plans on the subject.. You just want your Cab all better, I think she understands that {{{{{huggs}}}}}

Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: kitsune] #1243746
03/28/12 10:25 PM
03/28/12 10:25 PM

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Nuthouse
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Someone asked earlier - if there was a quarantine period. I looked but haven't seen an answer. Does anyone know? We have two that have trich. They are on wormer and antibiotic. Will it ever be gone, or is this something we'll have to live with forever...


Thanks,

Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1243799
03/29/12 08:04 AM
03/29/12 08:04 AM
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Northwest Missouri
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To early to tell as the first ones that were diagnosed via Zoologix multi-strain PCR are in their first treatment period....

Are your gliders that were diagnosed what are their symptoms/ages and how were they diagnosed..

Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1260499
05/23/12 09:38 PM
05/23/12 09:38 PM
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VA, USA
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VA, USA
So my boy has just tested positive for tritrich (via Zoologix) he was OOP 1/29/12 and had Ick as a joey. The breeder had told me it was only a yeast infection but now I guess that is proven wrong. When I got him he became very ill within a week and we have been in and out of vets trying to figure out what was wrong.. Just as I thought everything was moving in the right direction.. I get these results. They didn't tell me a strain, just when I called zoologix today that it was a strong positive. frown

Which meds if any have been used that are safe for him to take. After reading about the cat treatments it scares me to use some of it on him. Has anyone used the bird meds successfully or is it a different strain? Since he spent Saturday with what will be his cagemate before I got the results (her test was negative) how long until I should expect her to show positive? This doesn't seem like a death threat, just more of an inconvience as long as I'm not breeding them right?


:lol: Just trying to keep up.. so much to do so little time :lol:
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1260502
05/23/12 09:41 PM
05/23/12 09:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline OP
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline OP
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
I'm sure a couple people that have had experience with this will come along with some help for you. So sorry you and your joey are having to deal with this.

I hope you have been in contact with the breeder. If not, they should be notified right away so they can get vet care and hopefully quarantine their gliders.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1260503
05/23/12 09:50 PM
05/23/12 09:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 39
VA, USA
lhill Offline
In Pouch
lhill  Offline
In Pouch

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 39
VA, USA
I think he knew! when I said I was going to do the test he said it was a waste of money... that it would probably have a "false positive" ?!? which made me think.. and actually why I ended up doing the test. He even offered to help with my crazy vet bills and send my sweater back.. but no he has done none of those things. I'm not holding my breath he cares or wants others to know he has this issue. He even encouraged me to mate my (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets glider with his Joey and that it wouldn't be the end of the world.. frown very bad advice.. just lucky I had NO intentions of breeding.


:lol: Just trying to keep up.. so much to do so little time :lol:
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1260505
05/23/12 09:55 PM
05/23/12 09:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline OP
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline OP
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
Wow!


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1260509
05/23/12 10:20 PM
05/23/12 10:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 39
VA, USA
lhill Offline
In Pouch
lhill  Offline
In Pouch

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 39
VA, USA
Yeah, it's been emotional. Everything from crying to anger..

Last edited by lhill; 05/24/12 09:29 AM.

:lol: Just trying to keep up.. so much to do so little time :lol:
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1263600
06/04/12 11:43 PM
06/04/12 11:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,420
Twin Cities, MN
cinnamonstix Offline
Glider Addict
cinnamonstix  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,420
Twin Cities, MN
Seriously that is not ok. Who did you buy from? I just feel the community should be alerted to who they are as they are knowingly selling sick gliders. Can you legally go after him for selling you a sich sug knowingly? It may be something to look into just to help you cover vet bills for your baby. Hope they get better quick.


~GWEN~
Crazy Hubby Dru
Tortoise: Vork
Cats: Scooby, Swiper, Zero, Dinah & Sykes
Suggies: Meeko, Willow & Nemo; Rei, Rafiki & Rajah; Opal, Lily & Link; Tael, Tatl & Navi; Kristoff Krabbs & Crabby Patty
:rbridge: Fern, Cjarsa, Syfka, Icarus, Ivy, Howie & Gracie

www.cinnamonstix-n-sugar.com
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1264001
06/06/12 01:56 PM
06/06/12 01:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict
hwh4ev  Offline
Glider Addict
H

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
have there been any updates if the tritric. could be the t muris strain?

ihill, who is this male breeder that is selling these tritec babies? these types of breeders are a threat to
all gliders by helping spread this parasite.

breeders/buyers have to be aware of bad breeders like this.

i am sorry abt. your and caron's joeys showing up with this tritric.

if you read this whole posting, besides the meds. from the vet, probiotics also seem to help.

please keep us up to date, if you will. good luck to the both of you and your joeys.

take care,
nancy in detroit

Last edited by hwh4ev; 06/06/12 02:00 PM.

regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1264913
06/10/12 12:55 AM
06/10/12 12:55 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 53
Oregon, USA
R
Ryark Offline
Out of Pouch
Ryark  Offline
Out of Pouch
R

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 53
Oregon, USA
I'm curious as well. This is an important health topic in our community, so any updates would be appreciated. I wonder wither the tri trich would continue to show up on PCR tests even after it has been cleared, and for how long? Like when you vaccinate a cat for FIV, they will show up positive on ELISA tests forever just because their immune system has "seen" the virus, even though they dont have it and can't shed
it. Obviously tri trich is a protozoa, not a virus, but I wonder if the same holds true. Ive also seen a dog that got Lyme disease, and was
treated with antibiotics and recovered fine, years ago. But whenever we do his annual heartworm and Lyme test, he will always show up as positive because his body recognizes the disease and carries the antibodies. So, unless you did, say, 100 fecals and never found the tri trich protozoa again, how could you know whether a positive PCR test, say, a year after successful treatment with no further symptoms, is just showing that the glider had the bug at some point and cleared it, or still has it and continues to shed it. Also a contributing factor is that gliders don't provide a lot of fresh feces to have adequate sample size for testing. 5 grams of fresh feces is preferred for an accurate fecal test, otherwise you'll wind up with a lot of false negatives. Also, being a protozoa, I'm certain that tri trich sheds in cycles just like other intestinal parasites, so depending on when the sample is collected, the live bugs could be in the glider and just not showing themselves under the microscope. Most of this is just coming from my experience as a vet tech and reading thousands of fecal tests throughout my career, from a wide variety of animal species, looking for many types of intestinal parasites under the microscope. Parasitology and microscopy are passions of mine.


My gliders: Satchmo & Abra, Fedora & Tesseract, Nifty & Fabulous, and the pet-only colony of Mariel, Matthias, Briny, Scrum, and Picard

My dogs: April May & Rica, both miniature Dachshunds, & Riker, border collie
My cats: Turbo, Monty, & Mojo
Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1264999
06/10/12 11:05 AM
06/10/12 11:05 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
T
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave
tjlong  Offline
Glider Slave
T

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,710
Washington
Ryark, you offer up some good questions. I am not educated in veterinary medicine but I can give you and the rest of the people interested here a bit obi fo from my experiences.
First, the trichonomas that our gliders have does not present itself as a false positive after it is gone. I had tests done on my gliders. 4 of 30 tests came back positive in my original round of testing. The cages that had positive results with exception of one, had No symptoms. I changed diet and added a probiotic to their diet. The cage that had exhibited symptoms was given a 21 day round of metronidazole. The other three cages only had diet change with added probiotic. After three months I retested the cage that had symptoms and one other cage that had tested positive originally. BOTH results were NEGATIVE!!!
I am beyond happy about this but I am taking one additional step to ensure this is not a false negative caused by the probiotic. I am now removing the probiotic from the diet in those two cages and I will retest again in three months.
The ONLY lab who has a test that actually finds the trichonomads in our gliders via PCR (that we have found to date) is Zoologix in CA. The amount of feces required for the test is much less than the amount Ryark mention is necessary for an accurate result. It states that a small amount is sufficient right on their site. The other awesome thing about Zoologix test is that there doesn't need to be a live Protozoa to detect. It looks for the DNA/RNA. It doesn't look for anitgens or antibodies.
When the third test is completed, I will post again. At this point, after talking to several vets and researchers, I feel even more convinced the trichonomads in our gliders could very well be native to the gut flora and display themselves in much larger, detectible amounts when their gut Ph is not right. Just as yeast grows in excess in their gut when PH us out of balance, the trichonomads love that type of unbalance as well.
I hope this helps anyone who may be reading.


Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project




Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery] #1265030
06/10/12 03:01 PM
06/10/12 03:01 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 53
Oregon, USA
R
Ryark Offline
Out of Pouch
Ryark  Offline
Out of Pouch
R

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 53
Oregon, USA
Thanks for that information! Very interesting and valuable information.


My gliders: Satchmo & Abra, Fedora & Tesseract, Nifty & Fabulous, and the pet-only colony of Mariel, Matthias, Briny, Scrum, and Picard

My dogs: April May & Rica, both miniature Dachshunds, & Riker, border collie
My cats: Turbo, Monty, & Mojo
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