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Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109831
06/14/06 11:45 AM
06/14/06 11:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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Riverstone since you have an interest in calcium research here is a link that might interest you:

http://smartlifeforum.org/2004/06/newsletter.html

I will not respond to Mikey's post just for the sake of debating but will say that the medical use and effects of calcium is not simple. It is a very complex subject that even the leading researchers in the field of medicine do not understand or agree on. And probably never will. Too many variables.
Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109832
06/14/06 12:33 PM
06/14/06 12:33 PM

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FOr those trying to find that book, if you can log into your library's card catalog and go to World Cat (the system they work with right now is having...issues...so be patient with this process) it will search every library around that world in that system for the book. Some where must have it so a few of us should be able to find it.

just the title and author is fine for this search, btw.

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109833
06/14/06 01:35 PM
06/14/06 01:35 PM

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Okay, so now I'm really curious - if calcium has SO MANY variables, not only in its different forms but in how it's absorbed by the body and how other elements can effect it's absorpion rates, then how did the current ammounts of Calcium Carbonate in the BML and Darcy's diets get established as the appropriate ammounts to begin with? How did the idea of what was enough calcium in ANY of the diets come about, really? Was it a trial and error sort of thing, a best guess, an effort to keep the calcium phosphorus ratio at what they hoped would be 2:1, a combination of all of the above, or something else entirely? Did they look at tests stating that the c:p ratio of gliders in the wild was "X", and then went about mimicing it? Was it a best guess based on other animals of similar size that they had more information on? Was it simply an increase over previous diets in an attempt to curb problems like HLP? I can think of all sorts of possibilities as to what information you might draw from to make thsoe sorts of decisions, so I'm really curious as to how that all came about in the first place. Does anybody know?

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109834
06/14/06 07:02 PM
06/14/06 07:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
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Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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Maybe Mikey can explain it to you!

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
To tell you the truth, the calcium stuff isn't as complex as most make it out to be. Understanding calcium in a diet is really an understanding of the principles of not only nutrition but other related topics, and your experience with osteoperosis is already a good base background knowledge on much of it. It's a start.


<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109835
06/14/06 07:13 PM
06/14/06 07:13 PM

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</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Okay, so now I'm really curious - if calcium has SO MANY variables, not only in its different forms but in how it's absorbed by the body and how other elements can effect it's absorpion rates, then how did the current ammounts of Calcium Carbonate in the BML and Darcy's diets get established as the appropriate ammounts to begin with? How did the idea of what was enough calcium in ANY of the diets come about, really? Was it a trial and error sort of thing, a best guess, an effort to keep the calcium phosphorus ratio at what they hoped would be 2:1, a combination of all of the above, or something else entirely? Did they look at tests stating that the c:p ratio of gliders in the wild was "X", and then went about mimicing it? Was it a best guess based on other animals of similar size that they had more information on? Was it simply an increase over previous diets in an attempt to curb problems like HLP? I can think of all sorts of possibilities as to what information you might draw from to make thsoe sorts of decisions, so I'm really curious as to how that all came about in the first place. Does anybody know?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Well, like I said previously...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

It's all a guessing game really. There are simply too many factors to consider. It literally is like "ROCKET SCIENCE" and I feel those who created diets may be like NASA. They did the math, the studying, the research, and built a rocket and crossed their fingers hoping it would land on the moon. People have created diets (having done or having NOT done the ample research) for our gliders and hoped for the best, many successfully rearing what appear to be healthy gliders (indicating they have relatively correct amounts of nutrients). Some glider diet-makers have better "ROCKETS" than others, though.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I'm pretty certain most diets out there were established through trial and error and informed estimates (key word here: "informed" and not simply blindly put together). There's really no way one can mimick the diet of a glider in the wild on this side of the planet (especially considering the fact that actual components of glider diets vary cross-regionally), but there are many diets out there that come close and some that have proven to be perfect replacements (e.g. HP Wombaroo).

Perhaps you can email Bourbon about BML and/or contact the maker of Darcy's diet for exact methodologies for the determining of nutrient amounts, but I'm certain a great degree of it involved some creation based on informed estimates. I know Bourbon has perfectly sound reasons for using every ingredient in her diet. I think it's obvious that with any diet, depsite the amount of research that goes into creating it, it's the test of time that will prove its efficiency.

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109836
06/15/06 02:17 AM
06/15/06 02:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
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Just a silly thought, but animals such as dogs and cats (any domesticated animal for that matter) were all wild at one time. We feed them commercial foods for the most part and they do live to be in upwards of up to 20 years. We know the average life span of gliders in the wild is app. 5 to 7 years. (?) It seems to me that we have surpassed that, app. doubled that actually already. diets such as BML etc. have not been around for that long, so people have either been lucky or feeding them what they need already.

Here's a thought. HOW can we "perfect" the diet of a Sugar Glider when we can't even get the human diet right?


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109837
06/15/06 05:34 AM
06/15/06 05:34 AM

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True. I don't think there is a "perfect" diet. Every Sugar Glider is different, just like people. What is good for one may not work for the next.

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109838
06/15/06 10:20 AM
06/15/06 10:20 AM

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The human diet will never be perfect for a variety of reasons, mostly due to fades and media but that's another rant, however, this isn't about perfecting the glider diet, this is about improving it to prevent UTIs and crystals from forming.

If you don't have gliders prone to it and your little guys are fine with what you're feeding it...don't worry about it. However, just like you should feed lamb and rice to dogs that have sensative tummies, gliders sensative to the imbalance of calcium and phosphorus may need to look into this option. There's nothing wrong with researching the topic, even if it's a lost cause.

For all we know the absorbtion rate of calcium citrate may be so much increased that it should only be used as a senior diet or something to that degree. THis isn't an attempt to perfect the glider diet, just give it a little improvement.

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109839
06/16/06 02:43 AM
06/16/06 02:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,899
Jacksonville, FL
Xfilefan Offline
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I'm pretty much staying out of this and just reading...I am NOT a dietician by any stretch of the imagination!

Do consider that with say, cats....they have been human companions for over two THOUSAND years (first in ancient Egypt)...that's a lot of time to learn about an animal's needs-and even their diets are still changing and improving. Gliders have been pets for, what-maybe 15-20 years, maximum? At least here-slightly longer in Japan, I'm told.

It NEVER hurts to discuss these topics. Crystals and UTI's aside (and some crystals are okay-certain types, as long as there aren't too MANY of a "normal" crystal...that's when it hurts, and more crystals tend to form in urine that is alkaline in PH-the more alkaline...the more crystals, esp. in combination with an infection), lack of calcium causes HLP...too much can cause stones and other problems. So it is to our little guys benefit to discuss the issue...even if the first 100 times we discuss it, we end up back at square one. If you give up...the race will never be won.

This and many other reasons is why I have in my signature...The Truth is Out There...no one ever said it was easy to find, though.

I am enjoying reading and thinking about it, even if we don't end up at a solution. But if no one ever talks about it, no one will think about it, and then we won't have a 'some day' when someone says "Wait a minute...if X=Y...then Z!" and a solution presents. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109840
06/16/06 08:51 AM
06/16/06 08:51 AM

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Xfilefan, I must say <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> !

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109841
06/16/06 07:23 PM
06/16/06 07:23 PM

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Hi guys; sorry Iíve been absent from my own thread the past few days, all I can say for myself is ďthank you Fibromyalgia, yet again!Ē ANYWAYZ. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lingling and Xfilefan have it exactly right; in this instance the idea of looking more closely at the possible use of Calcium Citrate as an alternative to Calcium Carbonate isnít about finding that ONE perfect diet for all gliders; itís about looking specifically at the problem of why some gliders seem to have such problems with urinating, and then trying to find a good solution for that particular section of the glider population. If we can end up understanding these causes and effects better, then maybe that will lead to other things at some point in the future, but the only way to know for certain is to be willing to look at it to begin with.

Most of us on these boards have come to understand that calcium and phosphorus are important ratios to keep in balance when it comes to our gliders, but because some have asked what the heck I'm talking about with alkaline and acidic, and why that should matter, I think I'd better explain it a bit better - maybe then my line of thinking will make more sense to those who might be just a little confused at this point.

Youíve probably heard people refer to the ďpH balanceĒ of certain things? Well, thatís basically what weíre dealing with here. Very basically, pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution. It is measured on a scale of 0 to 14 -- the lower the pH the more acidic the solution, the higher the pH the more alkaline (or base) the solution. When a solution is neither acid nor alkaline it has a pH of 7, which is neutral.

In order for Calcium to be properly utilized in the body is best absorbed in an acidic environment, but because Calcium Carbonate is alkaline based it requires extra stomach acid for proper absorption. If the overall diet being fed is causing the bodyís ph balance to be too alkaline to begin with, then the Calcium Carbonate is going to have a very hard time of being properly absorbed, and itís probably only increasing the problem of an overly alkaline system, which is then, in turn, creating an environment where certain UTI bacteria can flourish Ė or at least thatís my theory behind all of this. The IDEA is that, if you can replace the Calcium Carbonate with Calcium Citrate, which is an acidic based calcium and doesnít need to have the additional acid in order to be properly absorbed, then perhaps you can start to bring the system back into check so that the glider is properly utilizing the calcium itís being given, and the urine is no longer an such an inviting environment for the infections to grow in.

If youíre wondering what I think MIGHT be causing SOME gliders to be suffering from an overly alkaline diet, I think it MAY have SOMETHING to do with the fruits and vegetables we feed them. See, MOST fruits and vegetables are considered alkaline. Even foods such as orange juice and lemon juice that start out as being acidic will turn alkaline after they have been metabolized in the body, and as such, for dietetic purposes they are usually considered to be alkaline despite being acidic prior to consumption. So, IF the COMBINATION of fruits and vegetables AND an alkaline-based calcium are in fact causing a pH imbalance in certain gliders, then changing the form of calcium to something acid based might be a good solution. This is WHY my theory is what it is, and WHY I want to look into Calcium Citrate as a possible means of fighting this type of occurrence in those SPECIFIC gliders with this specific problem. Does that make more sense to everyone now?

I still have a LOT to go through before I can determine if all of my theories are correct, and even MORE to go through before I can say whether my solution is appropriate, or even how much Calcium Citrate should be used to replace the Calcium Carbonate even IF everything else factors out correctly, so I AM NOT ADVOCATING THAT ANYONE MAKE ANY CHANGES BASED ON MY THEORIES AT THIS TIME!!! The ONLY reason Iíve outlined what it is Iím looking at is so that everyone will have a better understanding of exactly what Iím looking at right now and why Ė just so weíre clear.

Mikey Ė I actually DID send a note to both Bourbon and Saharanfox already asking them about the possibility of substituting the Calcium Carbonate for Calcium Citrate in their respective diets, but I havenít heard anything back yet. On the OTHER hand, I MAY not have made enough sense in my initial contact letters (youíve heard how I talk sometimes Ė that confusion can sometimes translate into my writing style when Iím not clear enough in my own mind about what Iím asking!), so it might be a good idea for me to write another letter to each of them, making sure that I make as much sense as possible this time. Also, because Iíve recently realized that the Suncoast diet ALSO uses Calcium Carbonate, Iíll send them a letter as well asking them about the possibility of such a substitution in their diet as well.

It may very well turn out that only one or two of these diets can be successfully converted to using Calcium Citrate, or it may turn out that none of them can; weíll just have to wait and see.

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109842
06/16/06 09:46 PM
06/16/06 09:46 PM

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I did just find something that says that "most of the bacteria responsible for urinary tract infections make the urine more alkaline because the bacteria split urea into ammonia and other alkaline waste products." But, I've also seen stuff that says that the bacteria that grows in urine is more likely to thrive in an alkaline environment, which I guess would make sense if that's the type of environment that the bacteria tend to create for themselves. So at this point I'm really not sure if it's the fruits and veggies and alkaline calcium that are causing the initial alkaline environment, or if they're just feeding into the problem once it occures, or exactly what might be going on.

So much to read, so much to learn, so much to figure out!

Last edited by RiverStone; 06/16/06 11:24 PM.
Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109843
06/17/06 12:16 AM
06/17/06 12:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,264
Northeast U.S.
angelic4296 Offline
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ooooo keep going Riverstone, I'm sooo interested in what you're doing!


Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile
Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109844
06/17/06 01:50 PM
06/17/06 01:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,659
Wallis Texas
Charlie H Offline
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Riverstone I think you have some good theories. But do not expect to get any quick answers or a solution to the questions about calcium. Although it has been posted that the research for answers about calcium is not complex. The topic has been researched for years and there are still no reasonable answers. It seems that everything a human eats or drinks effects the amount of calcium that should be included in the diet. The amount and type of protein, amount of vitamin d, amount of phosphorus, magnesium, to name a few. Alter the amount of any one of these and the whole formula is thrown off. Not to mention the ph of the diet. Plus it is not understood how different species metabolizes calcium.

There is a lot of speculation about calcium sources but it is just that. We do not know that sugar gliders even need to be supplemented with a calcium source. Many animals thrive quiet well without supplements and no insects or other small animals for calcium or protein sources.

I applaud you for your interest and research about calcium for sugar gliders but do not expect any quick or definite answers. In no way am I trying to discourage what you are attempting to accomplish. Just trying to explain how frustrating it can be. Mostly all you will get are undocumented theories and opinion.
Charlie H


Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]
Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109845
06/18/06 05:59 PM
06/18/06 05:59 PM

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Riverstone--
Another quote from Albert Einstein: "If we knew what it was that we were doing, we wouldn't call it research, would we?"

Sugar gliders are a very resilient species. Personally, I feel there IS no "one right way." I doubt any two gliders in the wild eat the exact same ratios of the exact same foods. Darcy's vet's advice is "small amounts of a large variety."
Calcium citrate may well be better than calcium carbonate. The only experience I've had with calcium citrate was in the form of a liquid which the gliders refused to touch, even mixed into Ensure. If they won't eat it, it's worthless.
If the powder you have isn't bad-tasting, and can be sprinkled or mixed into food, then--if you feel the risk is worth the gain--go ahead and try it. Cranberry juice (highly acidic) has been shown to lower the chances of UTI. I give my gliders cranberry juice every couple of weeks or so.
I agree with Mikey, however; the absorption rate for calcium citrate is likely different than that for calcium carbonate. High calcium levels can produce muscle tremors and over time, can actually mineralize internal organs, including the heart.
I calculated the amount of calcium to bring the regular Ensure up to a bit above a 2:1 ratio calcium:phosphorus, to allow for the high phosphorus in most protein sources.
None of my gliders hiss when peeing. The only warning I have is the raised tail, and sometimes not even that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I have heard them hiss while pooping, but not often, and usually only Demon or Darlene, who could stand to lose weight.
Riverstone, don't ever quit asking questions, even if nobody can answer them. Those are the ones you learn the most from! Thanks for pointing out this thread for me, I'm curious what you'll find out.

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109846
06/18/06 10:40 PM
06/18/06 10:40 PM

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Riverstone: So, I'm sure it will be safe to say, I'm glad that I'M not the one that has to go through all this research! We all want what is best for our wee friends, all we can do is sometimes the best we can do. I applaud you on your efforts to find desirable answers to such undesirable problems. I know I certainly will be one of the lackies routing in the stands.

Charlie, I'm glad your here to keep everyones feet planted on the ground!

Mikey, all of us appriciate the well formed laymens terms you type out for us. I have myself learned much that I had already heard, but not fully processed, from you.

That said, I bid you adieu,
I'm going back to my nosebleed seats, thankyouverymuch.

Re: Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Carbonate? [Re: ] #109847
06/19/06 07:31 PM
06/19/06 07:31 PM

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Yes, I totally get that I've chosen a monster of a task to tackle, but then again I've never been very good at making things easy on myself, so I guess that's just par for the course with me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Charlie, I don't honestly expect that any of this will be easy, or that I'll get to "the bottom" of anything any time soon, so I promise not to get my hopes up too much - on the other hand I don't think that it really hurts any to take a closer look, if only to have a better understanding of it all, and if I do happen to come up with something of value then that's even better.

Thank you saharanfox for letting me know how you calculated the calcium in Darcy's - that actually helps me a lot to understand what you looked at when you were figuring that diet out. I promise that I do understand that the two calciumís will most likely have different absorption rates, and that I will do my best to keep that in mind no matter what I'm looking at or trying to figure out because I know that too much calcium won't be any better than too little!

Iíve got to get Flip in for her six month check-up soon anyway, and Iím planning on switching from our current vet to a new one who I think will know a LOT more about diets than my current one does, and should be more open to discussing them, so Iím going to see if I can spend some time talking with her about all of this as well. Iíd like to have that perspective in the mix in addition to everything else Ė I really want to be as careful and as thorough as possible with all of this, so.

I did also want to take just a minute to explain a few things that I've found out about cranberries, since I know that a lot of people use cranberries to try and ward off UTIs, and I think that some people might think about using them on gliders. Cranberries are one of the few berries native to North America, and they do seem to help with UTIís; however, different scientists seem to think that they work for different reasons. Some say that the cranberry works because itís acidic AND it has properties that help to keep bacteria from sticking to the bladder wall, while others believe that it is ONLY those properties that keep bacteria from sticking to the bladder wall that help, and that the acidic nature of cranberries has nothing to do with it. In either case, in order for cranberries to be of help they must not be digested in something like a cranberry cocktail or a cranberry fruit blend, because the sugars in those drinks will counter the effects of the cranberries and only end up making the problem worse; that leaves strait cranberry juice, cranberry extract, or cranberries themselves that must be ingested in order for them to be beneficial.

The problem with cranberries is that they include something called tannins. Now, while the tannins are believed to actually be part of the reason that cranberries can keep bacteria from growing in the bladder, they can also negatively affect an animal's feed intake, feed digestibility, and efficiency of production, which can also be a problem. In addition, I have also read that levels of tannins above about 5% of the diet are often lethal, except in animals like poultry and swine, which often have problems with levels over 3%. And, since gliders probably havenít developed any sort of tannin-binding agents that would allow them to eat a larger ammount of tannins (since I donít think that theyíre natively exposed to them), youíd really have to be careful how much cranberry a glider was given, as well as how often it was given. Now, Iím not saying that an occasional bit of cranberry or cranberry extract would necessarily be a huge problem, especially if you've got some real UTI problems going on, but just please be careful about how much cranberry you give, what form you give it in, and how often you give it Ė just to be safe.

The more I look at it, the more complex it all seems to be getting Ė oh well, back to the salt mine I go. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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