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Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: ] #1053138
01/10/11 11:56 AM
01/10/11 11:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,640
Mims, Florida, USA
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave
hushpuppy  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,640
Mims, Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Megs
Anita,
Pictures and video have surfaced of glider being COMPLETELY drenched, and this is causing an uproar, as are the 'directions' for the method, which I believe you can find on page one, but it may have been page two.

I don't have the time (nor patience, tbh) to delve further into other things you've mentioned, but you are indeed wrong on multiple accounts, including insignificant details to this controversy.

When I come back tonight, after I slave away for 10+ hours, should this thread be continuing, which I assume it will be, I will cover more.

Good day to you all.

Be nice! wink
lol


Great Megs, I can hardly wait. Nothing i enjoy more than a good debate of the facts. Have a great day at work.


Anita Rae
StealthWheels, MagnumWheels and more at Atticworx

Play with us on Facebook



Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053139
01/10/11 11:56 AM
01/10/11 11:56 AM

B
buttercup
Unregistered
buttercup
Unregistered
B



Quote:
Animal abuse: Forcing single gliders to live alone


But if you have tried introducing a glider to another and that glider clearly shows he does NOT want to be anywhere near the other glider(s)...then that is something that should be taken into consideration. In a scenario like that, it's clearly not the human forcing the animal to live alone, the animal is clearly showing its distain...for a reason.

And even though your rescue is run by your wife and as you stated it's her full time job...keep in mind that even doctors won't take on new patients if their workload is too full. Keeping in contact with other rescues is a good idea...if one rescue has a full house so to speak, maybe other rescues DO have the extra time and/or room to lend a hand. That's all I'm saying.

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: ] #1053140
01/10/11 11:59 AM
01/10/11 11:59 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: lovely1inred
I've never heard anyone call washing a wound out with saline hydrotherapy before. Sounds just like a name made up to make things sound bigger than they are. Wounds are cleaned and dressed - i. e. dried or bandaged - after the wetting. These gliders are not. I consider the practice being discussed here cruel and unusual.


As a point of fact hydrotherapy is a best practice established by veterinarians. So no, it is not just a made-up thing thank you. Here are some facts about it and also wet/dry bandage treatment that goes beyond the pedestrian view:

Hydrotherapy in the simplest terms is running water over an affected area. Hydrotherapy can be done with warm water. In some cases, hydrotherapy is done with sterile saline solution and introduced with a hermetically sealed plastic syringe.

Here are a few examples when we have, under orders from our vet(s), used hydrotherapy:

1. After wet/dry bandage treatment, we used hydrotherapy on the head and neck of Padme, a rescue who's mating wound was hidden and progressed to an abscess. That abscess when cleaned-out and drained by a vet caused the skin on top of her skull to slough off.

With wet/dry bandaging, a sterile wet guaze is stitched or affixed directly on the affected area. This stimulates granulation. Then dry bandages are woven in on top of that to keep out debris. After three weeks of wet/dry bandaging and daily changing of the gauze, we began hydrotherapy. Every day. It started with sterile saline and after three weeks, we were able to use tap water. Around the edges of the wound, the water was used to flush out debris and stimulate skin growth and granulation. It took 6 months for the skin to finally stretch and cover her skull. 6 months of hydrotherapy. That's not abuse. That's saving life. With water. Today, although single, she is a happy little glider and getting her head and body wet every day with water did not phase her. So no one can tell me getting a glider wet is abusive.

2. Eye infections. Hyrdotherapy is a common method to use when gliders' eyes become weepy or infected. It is crucial to keep the corners of their eyes clear of debris and puss if they are having eye problems. This is also true of post enucleation surgery when the eyeball has to be removed. One our our rescues Doc, from the dwarf colony, has had regular bouts with eye puss. Our vet has encouraged hydrotherapy and special eye drops for that. He gets all wet in the process. Another rescue, who has since been adopted, called Makudo had hydrotherapy with sterile water after his enucleation surgery.

3. Open mating wounds or over-grooming wounds. We have had occasion to use regular hydrotherapy on no less than a dozen or so gliders this past year who either came in with or received wounds from other members of their colonies. Depending on the size of the wound, vets may sometimes stitch them shut but with gliders, this often leads to abscesses which can be deadly. Many vets like the idea of the wound healing open. In this case, both honey treatment and hydrotherapy are common methods. Of course with the hydrotherapy they get soaking wet. Every other day for two or three weeks. But it's worth it because the wound heals well.

Gliders receiving this treatment for medical reasons recently were Dizzy, Ginger, Clyde, Darla, and Buttercup. All of them have been paired up with strange gliders after getting "kicked out" of their respective colonies - four of them with the "wet" method of introduction after other methods failed.

After having used hydrotherapy for medical reasons so successfully, under doctors' orders for so many times - it does not even occur to me that getting a glider wet is "abusive."

Your perspective changes I guess if you have experience with Hydrotherapy. Not all vets ascribe to it, just like all vets do not ascribe to honey treatments as an antimicrobial. But just because *you* have never heard of something does not mean it's made up. It occurs to me that if you do not know about a subject thoroughly, you *ask* for more information instead of just debunking it out of hand.


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053142
01/10/11 12:01 PM
01/10/11 12:01 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
C
carolinasuggies Offline
Glider Guardian
carolinasuggies  Offline
Glider Guardian
C

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,192
NC
I think IMO this method is torture and I will sign a petition! Just b/c a vet does something safely doesn't mean it's okay for it to be done WAY differently & unsafely at home to force glider's that obviously dont want to be together into a tiny cage together!

Last edited by carolinasuggies; 01/10/11 12:05 PM.

Mommy to my kid's & slave to my suggies


Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053144
01/10/11 12:04 PM
01/10/11 12:04 PM

B
buttercup
Unregistered
buttercup
Unregistered
B



I also have another question for Ed...if he is still reading..

You stated in your post that you hold the glider and gently put water on them...is the glider wiggling? Trying to get away from the water? Is the glider sitting in your open hand or are you keeping a good grip on the animal so it can't get away while you are wetting its fur?

That in my opinion...is abuse. It's forcing the animal to sit still while you wet it and it has no means of escape.

That is not me calling you names, or bad mouthing you...just me wanting to know how you wet the glider while holding it in your hand.

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053146
01/10/11 12:06 PM
01/10/11 12:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,047
atkins arkansas
eterrell84 Offline
Glider Addict
eterrell84  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,047
atkins arkansas
Lucky_Glider, i understand your saying hydrotherapy is used and is very common, I TOTALLY AGREE. HOWEVER, i do not agree that water should be used in an "introduction" kind of setting. i think the gliders will live, and not be "physically harmed" from this. our main concern as a board (NOT speaking for anybody buy myself, just trying to say what i see)seems to be the stress it causes the gliders... and the bond with the HUMANS than will be strained bc of this.
im a firm believer of hydrotherapy, have used it myself before and its a miracle, BUT thats not what we are seeing here. i understand MOST things ARE a dispute when it comes to the glider community... but i think when board after board suggest this is inhumane, i would reconsider my actions. shock therapy used to be very common, does that mean we should still use it??? just an honest question i actually WANT you to answer please!

Last edited by eterrell84; 01/10/11 12:06 PM.

~ERIN~ momma to:ceasar(boxer),Chili(pug),Badcat(black cat) and Juliette(ragamuffin)~Apple:grey:and Archer:grey:and George Micheal:grey:Maybe:grey:and Jasper :wfb:,husband Jordan and daughter Azlyn!heart
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: hushpuppy] #1053148
01/10/11 12:13 PM
01/10/11 12:13 PM

T
Tyger
Unregistered
Tyger
Unregistered
T



I'm a newbie but I can't imagine how soaking the animal, putting mouthwash on their cloaca, and putting them under a bright light is anything less than cruel.

Not trying to call names or anything but this whole thing doesn't sound right at all.

Would it not be better to just keep the glider single and spend extra time with it to keep it happy? And continue to try to find a match for it with other gliders using more traditional methods?

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053149
01/10/11 12:14 PM
01/10/11 12:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 483
NY
Kimberlyann Offline
Glider Lover
Kimberlyann  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 483
NY
Anita Rae, I think your reasoning is far off base. Yes in their natural habitat it does rain, and even flood, but in the wild they are not locked in a tiny cage. They are free to take cover such as a hollow of a tree where they have built a nest to keep them warm.

Saying that nature deals it out so it is not harmful is not true. Gliders in captivity live longer for one. And for two, should we allow nature to take it's course for all of us and our pets?? Such as illness? Or the harshness of winter? Should we starve animals that otherwise would have no food in the winter? That is absurd thinking on your part. No we should not stop the rain, but rather have the ability and right to come in from it smile

Yes gliders may be tougher than we think they are. But causing a glider to be wet and sit there and shiver for an hour is causing the glider undue stress, which can affect the immune system. Also would frighten the glider. If I am trying to bond with a glider and earn trust the last thing I would want to do is traumatize it. I would never take my daughter, even though she is tough, and put her in a shower get her soaked and then make her stand there for an hour and then not feed her till the next day. That is abuse, and if you do not think so, I would suggest you try it on yourself. Go stand in the shower, lukewarm, and then shut it off. And stand there for an hour, and tell me you are not shivering cold. Next, lock yourself in a room with no tv etc (toys) under bright lights for the rest of the day and the nite without eating. Let me know how it goes, and if you want to get the real experience, do it with a stranger or someone you cannot stand.


Kimberlyann

:grey: :wfb: :leu: :plat: :bb:
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053161
01/10/11 12:37 PM
01/10/11 12:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict
hwh4ev  Offline
Glider Addict
H

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
the videos that are being shown to the public do not help gliders. case in point.
on my facebook page yesterday a friend tagged a lady (cant say her name on here) with a picture of her putting a glider
into a tub of water. cold or hot i do not know.

the point is this- you show videos of this nature and other
people will take it and think they are improving it with this kind of abuse.

it is abuse period. if a lone glider is that sad and needs a buddy they wouldnt need to take their shower or whatever because the humane way would work. takes time.
if you dont have the time then you need to downsize.

disgusted in detroit.
nancy
p.s. mouthwash with or without alcohol is poison. gliders lick it. i will sign a petition to try to shut you down. you do more damage then you are willing to admit. bonding? the next poor soul that gets one of your glider with this treatment will never have a good bonding relation. you will prob. get it back in time. what is the point.

Last edited by hwh4ev; 01/10/11 12:46 PM.

regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053164
01/10/11 12:44 PM
01/10/11 12:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 442
Indiana, USA
Rubym Offline
Glider Lover
Rubym  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 442
Indiana, USA
I dont understand what kind of a person sits around and comes up with these ideas????? I would deff sign a petition if one went around. I must be a naive idiot because I sat and worried about washing the crusty spot on my guys head with a qtip because he didnt like it. I cant imagine soaking the little guy or putting anything on him that would inflict pain. I dont care if my little ones are "tougher then I think" or not......y would I ever feel the need to treat them in a cruel and inhumane manner. I hate being cold and wet and I sure as [censored] wouldnt want to be FORCED to exist in a small confined area with someone I dont know or dont like. I have the means to remove myself from these situations.....my animals do not. It is up to me to be the one to make sure they never have to be cold, wet, hungry or unhappy if I can help it!!!!!


Ruby
www.rubyssuggieshak.weebly.com
fur babies Baka :grey: Manu :grey: :bb: Adara and Neera
, leopard, crested and gargoyle geckos,a rotten beagle ( Beauregard), a rotten english bulldaog puppy( oREN), 1 blood python, 1 redtail boa, 1 argentine boa and 3 corns
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053165
01/10/11 12:48 PM
01/10/11 12:48 PM

S
sugardaddy11
Unregistered
sugardaddy11
Unregistered
S



I would suggest you try it on yourself. Go stand in the shower, lukewarm, and then shut it off. And stand there for an hour, and tell me you are not shivering cold. Next, lock yourself in a room with no tv etc (toys) under bright lights for the rest of the day and the nite without eating. Let me know how it goes, and if you want to get the real experience, do it with a stranger or someone you cannot stand.




I agree

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: Rubym] #1053169
01/10/11 12:55 PM
01/10/11 12:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 211
La Crosse, WI
Jos Offline
Glider Explorer
Jos  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 211
La Crosse, WI
I'm rather new to all this, and I've not had to deal with over grooming and depression as I bought my twins in a pair, and they will be neutered and joined by their soon to be sister, Chai, shortly later.

HOWEVER, people in glass houses should not cast stones.

I'm not saying that we need to be allowing people who DON'T know what their doing to be doing this "wet" treatment, and I doubt if I'd allow it, I'd rather hunt for a successful partner to my gliders but that is ME.

That being said, I hardly think wetting an animal classifies as abuse because it struggles. My Pomeranian struggles when I give him a bath because he much prefers being a smelly little puffball, my wolfdog also used to struggle against it because she just did not like water. Does that mean I'm abusing them by forcing them to take the water? No. And anyone who's owned a dog knows that bathing a dog does it no harm, or even bathing a cat... if your so inclined... I wouldn't do it as I prefer all my skin to NOT be clawed up.

Again, not advocating the method, just pointing out a flawed theory on animal cruelty. Animals get wet, it happens. If you told me that EVERY glider in the wild has NEVER EVER gotten soaked, then I'd politely disagree to that as well. And sure, gliders have more likely then not died due to hypothermia or somesuch because of getting wet so I do see why it is so very strongly opposed. So while I wouldn't do this MYSELF, I won't shun people who have in vet supervised situations, I do stress vet supervised. Sometimes situations call for drastic measures, and that's how life is.

I do believe this "method" NEEDS to be controlled, I do NOT believe that we need to be pointing fingers at someone who did it because the animals could have SMed because they were alone.


Mom to

Ivory (husky mix)6/2006 - 12/23/2009 RIP babygirl
Punk (Pomeranian)
:wfb: Jazz, Rock, & Roll, Trance and Rave (oop 7-15-2011)!
:leu: My sweet little Swing
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053177
01/10/11 01:06 PM
01/10/11 01:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 483
NY
Kimberlyann Offline
Glider Lover
Kimberlyann  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 483
NY
It isn't just that they are getting wet. It is that they are getting wet and leaving them wet and cold for an hour and then not feeding them. It is just over the top. There are better ways to go about this.


Kimberlyann

:grey: :wfb: :leu: :plat: :bb:
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: hwh4ev] #1053178
01/10/11 01:11 PM
01/10/11 01:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,047
atkins arkansas
eterrell84 Offline
Glider Addict
eterrell84  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,047
atkins arkansas
Originally Posted By: hwh4ev
the next poor soul that gets one of your glider with this treatment will never have a good bonding relation. you will prob. get it back in time. what is the point.

i hate taking just a fraction of what you said nancy, but im going to.
i TOTALLY agree with this! this has the potential to cause an increase in "returned merchandise" .... there will be newbies who try this thinking they are doing best for their gliders, only to cause a terrible relationship between the owner and gliders. therefore, we could possibly see even MORE people who "cant bond" so will there be a human/animal way to do this? like lets ALL get in the shower and the only dry spot will be my bra? (as in training for a bra baby?) where does this end?


~ERIN~ momma to:ceasar(boxer),Chili(pug),Badcat(black cat) and Juliette(ragamuffin)~Apple:grey:and Archer:grey:and George Micheal:grey:Maybe:grey:and Jasper :wfb:,husband Jordan and daughter Azlyn!heart
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053189
01/10/11 01:36 PM
01/10/11 01:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,640
Mims, Florida, USA
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave
hushpuppy  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,640
Mims, Florida, USA
I think I am starting to get de ja vu here. This is a discussion that I have had before. Am I condoning this method. Not at this point. I would however like to know more about it instead of all the speculation and accusations about gliders shivering and dying from it.

Kimberlyann, I think you totally missed the point of my sarcasm, which is...getting an animal wet is not animal cruelty in any law book anywhere on this planet. Animals in the wild do have a choice and they usually choose to go out in it instead of going hungry.

We HAVE seen in this community times when everyone on every forum said something is wrong and everyone got their panties in a wad about things and later it was determined that the whole community was wrong. There was a time when there was only one diet accepted and if you raised your head and said that you didn't use it, you could expect to be thoroughly thumped by the community. Heaven help you if you slipped your glider a piece of cat food occasionally. But we grew and we learned and now there is a huge selection of diets to choose from or it is alright to feed none of them.

And there was a time when this community would get in an uproar at just the mention of putting any kind of coating on wood. Now we know that there are many safe ways to coat wood for glider toys and boxes.

So instead of being so closed minded, and ready to throw a good rescue under the bus, why don't we open up a little and ask some good questions and get some real facts before we set in judgment.

I would like to know from the source how many times this has been tried? And what is the success rate? Water temperatures? Room temperatures? What steps were taken before this was used. Longevity of those that it seems to have worked on?

Most people, even newbies have the intelligence to choose for themselves whether this is a method that will work for them or not when all the facts are put out there. And if we put all the information out, the risks and the benefits, without the fear mongering and the finger pointing, most people can decide for themselves if they want to try it.

I sure wish I saw this much passion about stopping the mills. Maybe then we wouldn't need so many rescues and maybe the rescues that we have would be overcrowded and having to turn away gliders in need.

One more thing. When ya'll get this petition together, please post it somewhere that I can read it. I need a good laugh today. And be sure that you site the animal cruelty laws that have been broken in the petition. I will help you out and list the ones that I know of below.



There. Did you get them? Yep, that was more sarcasm...Sorry.

Ok, I don't mean any disrespect with all of this but some of it has been so blown out of proportion that it is almost ridicules. I mean come on...seriously? Their skin is not going to mold and mildew from this, and they are not going to be forever emotionally damaged from getting wet for a few hours.


Anita Rae
StealthWheels, MagnumWheels and more at Atticworx

Play with us on Facebook



Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053197
01/10/11 01:52 PM
01/10/11 01:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,268
Houston, TX
wclanton423 Offline
Glider Guardian
wclanton423  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,268
Houston, TX
So what happens to the gliders that go through this introduction process and still do not get along?


Whitney

~Southland Sugar Gliders~


Mommy to:
:grey: :rtmo: :leu: :wfb:
my dogs, Duke and Nikki
my cat Puma
my awesome bunny Swayzee

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: Kimberlyann] #1053199
01/10/11 01:57 PM
01/10/11 01:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 211
La Crosse, WI
Jos Offline
Glider Explorer
Jos  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 211
La Crosse, WI
As I said Kimberlyann, the 'method' NEEDS to be controlled and, more likely then not, changed. I'm not advocating it's use or saying it's right to treat the animal as such.

Merely stating that wetting an animal that is struggling AGAINST the water isn't cruelty. I don't agree with LEAVING the animal wet, just as I wouldn't want to remain wet after being drenched. I still believe that with changes and a HIGHLY controlled situation, in extreme cases it could be a possible solution. But not one that I'd openly say "Try this" with. Too many newb owners would be using it as their first choice solution.


Mom to

Ivory (husky mix)6/2006 - 12/23/2009 RIP babygirl
Punk (Pomeranian)
:wfb: Jazz, Rock, & Roll, Trance and Rave (oop 7-15-2011)!
:leu: My sweet little Swing
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: wclanton423] #1053200
01/10/11 01:57 PM
01/10/11 01:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,047
atkins arkansas
eterrell84 Offline
Glider Addict
eterrell84  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,047
atkins arkansas
Originally Posted By: wclanton423
So what happens to the gliders that go through this introduction process and still do not get along?


good point! has this ever NOT worked? did you try this method again after it not working the first time?


~ERIN~ momma to:ceasar(boxer),Chili(pug),Badcat(black cat) and Juliette(ragamuffin)~Apple:grey:and Archer:grey:and George Micheal:grey:Maybe:grey:and Jasper :wfb:,husband Jordan and daughter Azlyn!heart
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: Lucky_Glider] #1053205
01/10/11 02:02 PM
01/10/11 02:02 PM

L
lovely1inred
Unregistered
lovely1inred
Unregistered
L



Originally Posted By: Lucky_Glider
Originally Posted By: lovely1inred
I've never heard anyone call washing a wound out with saline hydrotherapy before. Sounds just like a name made up to make things sound bigger than they are. Wounds are cleaned and dressed - i. e. dried or bandaged - after the wetting. These gliders are not. I consider the practice being discussed here cruel and unusual.


As a point of fact hydrotherapy is a best practice established by veterinarians. So no, it is not just a made-up thing thank you. Here are some facts about it and also wet/dry bandage treatment that goes beyond the pedestrian view:

Hydrotherapy in the simplest terms is running water over an affected area. Hydrotherapy can be done with warm water. In some cases, hydrotherapy is done with sterile saline solution and introduced with a hermetically sealed plastic syringe.

Here are a few examples when we have, under orders from our vet(s), used hydrotherapy:

1. After wet/dry bandage treatment, we used hydrotherapy on the head and neck of Padme, a rescue who's mating wound was hidden and progressed to an abscess. That abscess when cleaned-out and drained by a vet caused the skin on top of her skull to slough off.

With wet/dry bandaging, a sterile wet guaze is stitched or affixed directly on the affected area. This stimulates granulation. Then dry bandages are woven in on top of that to keep out debris. After three weeks of wet/dry bandaging and daily changing of the gauze, we began hydrotherapy. Every day. It started with sterile saline and after three weeks, we were able to use tap water. Around the edges of the wound, the water was used to flush out debris and stimulate skin growth and granulation. It took 6 months for the skin to finally stretch and cover her skull. 6 months of hydrotherapy. That's not abuse. That's saving life. With water. Today, although single, she is a happy little glider and getting her head and body wet every day with water did not phase her. So no one can tell me getting a glider wet is abusive.

2. Eye infections. Hyrdotherapy is a common method to use when gliders' eyes become weepy or infected. It is crucial to keep the corners of their eyes clear of debris and puss if they are having eye problems. This is also true of post enucleation surgery when the eyeball has to be removed. One our our rescues Doc, from the dwarf colony, has had regular bouts with eye puss. Our vet has encouraged hydrotherapy and special eye drops for that. He gets all wet in the process. Another rescue, who has since been adopted, called Makudo had hydrotherapy with sterile water after his enucleation surgery.

3. Open mating wounds or over-grooming wounds. We have had occasion to use regular hydrotherapy on no less than a dozen or so gliders this past year who either came in with or received wounds from other members of their colonies. Depending on the size of the wound, vets may sometimes stitch them shut but with gliders, this often leads to abscesses which can be deadly. Many vets like the idea of the wound healing open. In this case, both honey treatment and hydrotherapy are common methods. Of course with the hydrotherapy they get soaking wet. Every other day for two or three weeks. But it's worth it because the wound heals well.

Gliders receiving this treatment for medical reasons recently were Dizzy, Ginger, Clyde, Darla, and Buttercup. All of them have been paired up with strange gliders after getting "kicked out" of their respective colonies - four of them with the "wet" method of introduction after other methods failed.

After having used hydrotherapy for medical reasons so successfully, under doctors' orders for so many times - it does not even occur to me that getting a glider wet is "abusive."

Your perspective changes I guess if you have experience with Hydrotherapy. Not all vets ascribe to it, just like all vets do not ascribe to honey treatments as an antimicrobial. But just because *you* have never heard of something does not mean it's made up. It occurs to me that if you do not know about a subject thoroughly, you *ask* for more information instead of just debunking it out of hand.



Ed, my mother is a nurse and I'm quite aware of what wet/dry bandaging entails. Just because human doctors don't use fancy names doesn't make me undeducated on the subject, and it DOES imply with the useage a certain amount of authority when you use technical terms. It is not, however, soaking an animal to the bone over its entire body. Which is what is being advocated here. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: eterrell84] #1053214
01/10/11 02:25 PM
01/10/11 02:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Originally Posted By: eterrell84
Lucky_Glider, i understand your saying hydrotherapy is used and is very common, I TOTALLY AGREE. HOWEVER, i do not agree that water should be used in an "introduction" kind of setting. i think the gliders will live, and not be "physically harmed" from this. our main concern as a board (NOT speaking for anybody buy myself, just trying to say what i see)seems to be the stress it causes the gliders... and the bond with the HUMANS than will be strained bc of this.
im a firm believer of hydrotherapy, have used it myself before and its a miracle, BUT thats not what we are seeing here. i understand MOST things ARE a dispute when it comes to the glider community... but i think when board after board suggest this is inhumane, i would reconsider my actions. shock therapy used to be very common, does that mean we should still use it??? just an honest question i actually WANT you to answer please!


[kind of answering a few people's posts at once]

Remember, this method is not the first method of choice. I have used this twice on gliders wherein the other methods failed - after months of trying. And only with single gliders with problems.

Yes, it is true that I mentioned hydrotherapy and it is true that that is used in a separate context (that is treating an awful physical malady) and that it does not necessarily justify getting a glider wet for other reasons. I understand that logic.

So why did I even mention hydrotherapy? To establish, after having to do it so many times, that there is no evidence of ill effect after having done it. The glider Padme I mentioned took it for a whole 6 months every other day until the skin on her head grew back.

So let's think about that for a moment. Padme took Hydrotherapy for months and I could only wipe off her body, not her head and neck - and she was fine and continues to be fine. Unfortunately, we will probably have to keep her single and in sanctuary because another glider may go after the top of her head. Thank goodness she has not done that to herself so far. So far she seems to be an agile, active little glider with a good appetite. And she loves riding around on us when we take her out.

Now to try to keep the use of this method in context try to understand everyone that the use of it here is only after exhausting other methods and only to join two gliders where at least one has self-mutilation or over-grooming or stress problems. That is why my argument is based on the quality of the life of the animal.

Do they wiggle to get away from the water? Oh come on of course they do. Did my heart go out to them when they wiggled and when they sat in the cage wet before I put the pouch in? Yes. But it's for a greater good. For them to be finally happy and less stressed out.

So far, based on the condition of these particular animals, I am not having a problem rationalizing a few hours of a few individuals being wet. That is a small price to pay because it is more important to give them a (hopeful) lifetime of less stress and having a cagemate. And less over-grooming or less self-mutilation. These are the judgment calls you are presented with when dealing with so many rescued animals. We are thinking about their welfare and doing everything we can to give them a long and healthy life. The fact this one method is a lighting rod for controversy does not change my resolve to make sure their quality of life is paramount. If I am proven wrong and I find out it is hurtful, we will discontinue the practice.

Those of you who argue: "just pay more attention to the single ones" apparently have not witnessed first hand the horrible conditions over-grooming and self-mutilation can lead to. We have. Over and over. And we do our best to pay more attention to the single ones and also do our best to try more traditional methods, like the ones we have published -- but sometimes when you exhaust other methods and a glider is ripping its fur out down to the bare skin or biting itself over the stress of being alone -- your heart goes out to them and you are willing to try something different.

So please everyone try to keep our use of this method in context. It's about the quality of life of the animal. It's about recognizing that *not* joining single gliders who clearly need it - is what's abusive.

So people are polarized on this issue. I am sensitive to that. But I doubt the majority of the people complaining are dealing with the kind of suffering I am talking about with the lone gliders in question.

Now am I just being stubborn in the face of your "votes" on the glider equivalent of the peoples' court? No not at all. In fact, if the method does not work or the gliders that we joined start fighting and hurt each other (because they were "forced" and it just wasn't meant to be) then we will sadly separate them.

And we will tell everyone we did and that and that our hopes that the method was a good thing were dashed - and that we were wrong. But that is not the case so far.

Some anecdotal evidence it is working:

Now Dizzy has stopped ripping her fur out.

Now Ginger is starting to come out of her shell and will jump on to my hand where as before she was afraid of my approaches.

It is my observation so far that being together has lowered their collective stress and that they are enjoying a better quality of life.

Were they mad at me for getting them wet? Probably. Are they mad at me now that they have cage mates and their quality of life is much better? I don't think so.

This is not shock therapy. Or blood letting. Or using leaches. Or waterboarding for goodness sakes. This is getting a glider wet for a few hours and letting them run into a pouch. By the way, the light is just simulating daylight so they stay in the pouch to dry off.

To me, the evidence that these gliders are happier now is more important than people crying abuse! It's about them and their welfare, not people who want to cause trouble. The only reason I come to these boards is to share with humans what we do and what works for us - in the hopes it will help someone. I don't come here for your approval. I don't need that. I come here to share what we have learned, good and bad.

I remain open to speak to, give tours to, and welcome any individual, court-appointed inspector, federal USDA ACI, other rescue organizations, to some see what we are all about. Come see for yourself the condition of the animals, our records, audit our animal husbandry course, the dietary workshop, etc. In the end me getting some pitifully lonely gliders wet after all else failed is not going to have an impact on our ongoing efforts to save, rehabilitate and re-home animals. If we are proven wrong, we will admit it. Until then, maybe a few of you could find it in your hearts to give us the benefit of the doubt because four lonely stressed out gliders have another shot at a happy life. Think about it.


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: Lucky_Glider] #1053218
01/10/11 02:33 PM
01/10/11 02:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 490
Champaign Co., Illinois
Berg Offline
Glider Lover
Berg  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 490
Champaign Co., Illinois
I really appreciate Ed coming here and clearly and rationally outlining the facts. IMHO there is far too much knee-jerk and emotional response to things like this on the forums, here and elsewhere. I am guilty of such a knee-jerk reaction yesterday, made before I figured out where the initial story came from and had bothered to go read the thread.

I understand the rationale and the behavioral basis underlying the method used as a last resort when all else has failed. Would I ever use it? No. Is it animal cruelty?. That depends. Not everything is black and white!

Quoting Ed...
===========================================
"We will continue to publish our experiences in rescue for the benefit of the community as we have for years. Not everyone will agree with us. If we find a method that works we will use it. If it fails we will admit it. We are an open book and share our experiences to enrich and educate the community. So we don't hide under a rock and cower because something we have tried may be controversial. "
============================================

I think LG deserves a lot of respect for this. If, for example, they had kept quiet about this and kept it to themselves, we wouldn't be having this discussion - AT ALL. After reading all that has been written so far, and particularly Ed's responses in this thread, I do not question their dedication to the gliders they deal with.

"Publishing", especially on forums such as this, is a two-edged sword. On one hand, you can share valuable experiences on what has and hasn't worked for you or others, whether it be about diet, bonding, or introducing gliders. On the other hand, the risk is that some newbie will take the first thing they read, without looking into anything further, and go with it. I can see that happening with this, and maybe it already has. All you need is some new owner clumsily trying this and posting it on YouTube, and then thousands of new owners see it. Unfortunately, there is no one authoritative source for glider information where someone can go and know that the information is accurate, vetted, based on sound science and practices, and includes appropriate caveats and cautions.

If everyone is honest about it, the majority of posts criticizing the method have been emotionally based. We cannot imagine our gliders being subject to this and see no need whatsoever to put our gliders through this. I have those same feelings. However, I'm not in LG's shoes and I don't have their perspective because I'm not in rescue. Of course, some of you are and have expressed your thoughts on the subject.

Opinions don't make something right or wrong. If person A strongly feels the only good diet for gliders is BML and thinks that feeding them anything else is akin to abuse, does that make me an "abuser" for feeding our gliders the Blended diet? Maybe to person A, but not to me and lots of others. It's not a perfect analogy, but I hope it makes the point. There are some people who never agree with something despite being faced with mountains of evidence to support it.

Hopefully cooler heads prevail and that a rational, fact-based discussion can be had for everyone's benefit.


-Steve-

:grey: Foehn, CB, Rossby, Sprite, Flurry, and Pascal

gangel Virga 9-10-2012
gangel Cirrus 4-29-2013


The Glider Chronicles blog
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053219
01/10/11 02:43 PM
01/10/11 02:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Some posts will be edited as they quoted a post(s) that I will be removing as it did not adhere to the warning by Admin.

We can all say we feel something is abuse or we feel something is the wrong way. Honestly, non of us know what is the right way or wrong way of doing things we can only guess and do what we feel is best. Would I use or promote this method no, even as a last resort but that is my feeling.

Honestly I am tired of seeing all the "know it alls" make up their own rules on what is considered right and or wrong and make it the law of the land with gliders. This is not directed at anyone in particular, or the people who started this method or use people who use this method.

If you think this method is abusive and want to stop it, bring the documentation to the proper places and the law will tell you if it is abusive and if they will take actions. Beating a dead horse will get nobody anywhere.

The discussion is here, we are all adults and need to behave that way. No arguing, bickering, or getting uptight about it. Talking things out, being open minded is the best way. Being closed minded and believing what one feels is the only way and bickering to prove a point does nothing.

Again, from what I read I would never use or suggest. If I feel its abusive, thats my feeling. It does not mean the law thinks it is!

Lets keep this thread a productive one, not a bickering or one that breaks the rules and warnings or actions against your account will be taken. We will not allow anyone to bully their point or beliefs nor will we allow people to try and get this thread closed or take it off topic.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053222
01/10/11 02:46 PM
01/10/11 02:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,527
Lake Havasu City, AZ
Marsupial_Mayhem Offline
Glider Slave
Marsupial_Mayhem  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,527
Lake Havasu City, AZ
I cannot and will not accept this as a humane method of bonding animals. I would never sell to anyone who would attempt this either.


Danielle G.
USDA Breeder

www.Mylittlesugarglider.com

Slave to Sugar Gliders since 1997



:leu: = Abercrombie

:wfb: = Verbena :rtmo: = Saukura :cream: = Merry Christmas :plat: = Willie Wonka :plat: = Magdalena

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053225
01/10/11 02:50 PM
01/10/11 02:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
It is not getting a glider wet that is the problem here. It is getting multiple gliders wet, putting them together into a cage with other gliders that they DON"T LIKE and forcing them to stay that way under a bright light until they become too exausted and to frightened to fight anymore and they submit to their fate. A fate they did not choose.

Ed, I've read your blog and it is just unbelievable to me that you would recommend this method. I also read the thread on FB and saw those photos.

The method that you are adovcating as a "last resort" to introduce single gliders IS being used to combine cages of gliders into larger colonies for the sole purpose of making life easier for the OWNER, not the gliders. Your blog does not in any way state this should be a last resort method used only on single gliders that are languishing and suffering, over grooming or self mutilation. That is irresponsible on your part.

I have had gliders over 12 years. I have had hundreds of rescues through my doors in that time. I have currenly 40 gliders living here. Some rescues, some I purchased and some born here. I have seen the extreme cases of neglect, abuse, malnutrition, over grooming and self mutilation. PLEASE do not try to make it seem you are the only ones that have seen this in gliders. Kate has. Mary certainly has. Bourbon has. Val has. Connie has. Elena has. Jen has. Almost all rescuers that have been taking in rescues for more than 6 month has.

Currently 7 of my gliders are LONE gliders and I would love nothing more than them be with cage mates. And I'm working on that at THEIR pace. But forcing them to live where they are choosing NOT to live to me is flat out cruel to them. None of them are in isolation. They all have neighbors and I hope the day will come that they CHOOSE to share houses with those neighbors but I would NEVER consider forcing the issue by this method.

As a long time glider owner, rescuer, breeder (limited in my case) I long ago realized I have a responsibility to be VERY careful about what I post and to be sure to explain WHY, in detail, what I do as well as WHY this should not be done by just anyone for whatever reason. This is because many new owners look to those with the years of experience for guidence and often will jump in head first without considering all aspects of the situation. I have a responsibility to post something along the lines of "new owners should not try this". "This is not a normal every day method" or whatever. I could not live with the guilt of something happening to a glider to cause harm or death because I was irresponsible in how and what I post.

I have been part of "experimental" methods and such with gliders. Most long term owners have because it has been necessary. That is how we have learned and gotten to where we are now with gliders.

But here we have a situation where someone (you) with a reputation as a rescuer with experience and knowledge has posted about a method used as a last resort to better the life of INDIVIDUAL gliders and because it was not fully explained that this should only be used under extreme situations with single gliders, it has been taken by new owners and used in a sad and disturbing way to take cages of multiple gliders (not singles but gliders that already have cage mates) and put them together into one big colony just to make life easier on THE OWNER not the gliders.

Their defense of this is Ed does this.

For me, I will never advocate this method. I do believe it is cruel. I believe it is emotional torture. I believe that getting them wet and keeping them wet for extended periods of time (the hour you are suggesting) is putting them at risk of health issues. I believe that putting them in situations where their only option is to seek comfort and companionship from a glider they have previously shown NO interest in befriending, is cruel. I believe that the long term effects of this will cause more harm than good.

I have colonies. I have had quite a few colonies over the years and I KNOW, I have EXPERIENCED, I have OBSERVED how colonies can blow apart. How the dynamics of colonies are always changing. How colonies can live together in harmony for YEARS and then all of a sudden totally blow apart. I have also seen gliders who will live with another glider simply because they have no choice and I've seen some of those same gliders exist but not thrive because of their forced situation.

The gliders in your care are subject to your control. They are NOT wild gliders that have a choice to leave or change tree holes.


On a quick note about hydrotherapy. I have used it on many different animals including horses, dogs and gliders but hydrotherapy is not getting an animal wet and keeping them wet for an hour. Dogs get hydrotherapy where the wound is, not their whole body and they get dried off the best they can be after. Same when I have treated mating type wounds. The wound gets the hydrotherapy, not the whole glider. It takes about 5 minutes and then the glider is dried off and kept warm until they are completely dry.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: hwh4ev] #1053226
01/10/11 02:53 PM
01/10/11 02:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,527
Lake Havasu City, AZ
Marsupial_Mayhem Offline
Glider Slave
Marsupial_Mayhem  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,527
Lake Havasu City, AZ
Originally Posted By: hwh4ev
the videos that are being shown to the public do not help gliders. case in point.
on my facebook page yesterday a friend tagged a lady (cant say her name on here) with a picture of her putting a glider
into a tub of water. cold or hot i do not know.

the point is this- you show videos of this nature and other
people will take it and think they are improving it with this kind of abuse.

it is abuse period. if a lone glider is that sad and needs a buddy they wouldnt need to take their shower or whatever because the humane way would work. takes time.
if you dont have the time then you need to downsize.

disgusted in detroit.
nancy
p.s. mouthwash with or without alcohol is poison. gliders lick it. i will sign a petition to try to shut you down. you do more damage then you are willing to admit. bonding? the next poor soul that gets one of your glider with this treatment will never have a good bonding relation. you will prob. get it back in time. what is the point.
Mouthwash also burns in your mouth too. The skin of the genitals are much more sensitive. How do you think they feel after the mouthwash is put on them there?

I would say, you are causing the animal pain. I do not understand how this could not be called abuse.

Last edited by Marsupial_Mayhem; 01/10/11 02:53 PM.

Danielle G.
USDA Breeder

www.Mylittlesugarglider.com

Slave to Sugar Gliders since 1997



:leu: = Abercrombie

:wfb: = Verbena :rtmo: = Saukura :cream: = Merry Christmas :plat: = Willie Wonka :plat: = Magdalena

Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053230
01/10/11 03:02 PM
01/10/11 03:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 211
La Crosse, WI
Jos Offline
Glider Explorer
Jos  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 211
La Crosse, WI
I think I have come up with a suitable way to rationalize this. As people are seeing it as black and white and it clearly is not. I commend Ed for trying his best to make life better for these highly stressed gliders. So here is the example of how the rules of "inhumane" care so easy to be opinion and emotionally based.

My wolfdog Ivory, who has sadly passed away, was a case of SEVERE separation anxiety. To the point where she would HURT HERSELF if she was left home alone. She would pull out her fur, leaving bald spots, chew on her paws and tail, and was all in all miserable. Added to that was the fact that she was extremely afraid of men, my ex beat her before I rescued her from him you see. So what did I do? I forced her into situations that made her uncomfortable. I'd sit her on a leash and let strange men feed her treats and pet her head. I'd put her in a room, close the door, and leave her there for 10 minutes then come back, leave and go for 15 minutes, then come back to show her that I would return for her. Did she like this? No. Was she clearly upset by it. Yes. Did it PAIN me to have to force her into situations she'd rather hide from. Yes. But it was in her best interest, was it not? A fearful dog that's HURTING herself, ripping out her fur (She was bald on her hindquarters for MONTHS) and crying whenever I left her alone is not a happy dog. Is that abuse? That I wanted to manipulate her behavior so she was healthier? I think not. The same goes with this, IMO. I would never do it, that's me and I hate seeing animals miserable, but if it was put before me that I could do this "wet" method or my animal would basically destroy itself... I think, with as much as I love my animals and as much as it would kill me to make them miserable for their well being, I would consider it.

I would do the same for any animal that was clearly hurting itself for one reason or another. Sometimes you need to show a little bit of hardness because you love them. I love my animals, and making them do things they don't like isn't something I enjoy. I didn't enjoy putting Ivory in situations that made her afraid and made her cower and tremble, but she was a better dog for it. She stopped pulling out her fur, she stopped chewing on her feet and tail, she stopped crying for hours on end when I leave the room. I don't view taking an extreme case and fixing it with some unpopular method as abuse. If that was the case then anyone who forces their animal to do something they don't want to do even if it's for their good is abusing their animals, and that is something I just don't agree with. Take from that what you will, but I do not believe Ed is completely wrong in his method, as much as I disagree with wetting them I also disagree with letting them pull out their fur and chew on their tails. What is the lesser of the two evils? A momentarily unhappy glider who will be better for it, or a glider that will worry itself to death?


Mom to

Ivory (husky mix)6/2006 - 12/23/2009 RIP babygirl
Punk (Pomeranian)
:wfb: Jazz, Rock, & Roll, Trance and Rave (oop 7-15-2011)!
:leu: My sweet little Swing
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053231
01/10/11 03:03 PM
01/10/11 03:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 211
La Crosse, WI
Jos Offline
Glider Explorer
Jos  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 211
La Crosse, WI
(double posted)

Last edited by Jos; 01/10/11 03:04 PM.

Mom to

Ivory (husky mix)6/2006 - 12/23/2009 RIP babygirl
Punk (Pomeranian)
:wfb: Jazz, Rock, & Roll, Trance and Rave (oop 7-15-2011)!
:leu: My sweet little Swing
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053236
01/10/11 03:14 PM
01/10/11 03:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Jos, I understand your point with the dog, I do. However, dogs are not prone to severe life threatening illness from stress AS EASILY as gliders are. While gliders are not as fragile as many believe they are (they are tiny and cute but they really are more rugged than we like to believe) BUT... we do know that stress with gliders can cause life threatening illness.

Using your dog as an example, you did what you needed to do to stop your dog from self mutilating. We do the same to gliders when we put them in ecollars. But anyone that has dealt with a glider in an ecollar will tell you that their two concerns are. 1. Will the glider get out of the collar and do more damage and 2. how badly is this stress going to hurt them?
Most gliders will drastically slow down or stop eating and loose weight when in an ecollar. It isn't because the collar prevents them from physically being able to eat. It is because of the stress.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: Dancing] #1053243
01/10/11 03:27 PM
01/10/11 03:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 211
La Crosse, WI
Jos Offline
Glider Explorer
Jos  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 211
La Crosse, WI
I totally agree with you Dancing. I'm merely trying to point out that while we don't always agree with methods, sometimes it isn't the worst thing that could happen to the animal. I'm all for not stressing an animal out, I hated stressing out my dog.

As I said before, I wouldn't use this myself. I don't believe in leaving an animal wet for a length of time. But I can also understand where someone who has no other alternative to save a SMing glider may look to this. I do NOT think just anyone should be doing it for the benefit of the owner, and it should not be open information for just anyone IMO.

mostly I'm playing devils advocate here.


Mom to

Ivory (husky mix)6/2006 - 12/23/2009 RIP babygirl
Punk (Pomeranian)
:wfb: Jazz, Rock, & Roll, Trance and Rave (oop 7-15-2011)!
:leu: My sweet little Swing
Re: Wet introductions, reposted [Re: sugarlope] #1053249
01/10/11 03:51 PM
01/10/11 03:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,456
Saint Louis MO
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict
xSwtxSugaX  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,456
Saint Louis MO
I feel like im starting to read the thread over again on GG. Dont get me wrong, everyone had wonderful points, but its rather repetitve when it comes down to certain people. So lets chop down some of the massive text to get to the points.

Ed I commend you for coming and defending yourself with a professional manner. Your point would be that it is a last resort for gliders who are experiencing over grooming and depression from being alone for so long. That a little water does not harm them and its for there best interest.

Everyone who doesnt agree with this method, I think there main point is the getting wet for a full hour, and the fact that the information given in your journal isnt specified as last resort.

Im sure people can add more points to it and im sure somebody will, but coming from MOST of the posts that is what Im gathering.


Now I def dont agree with the method, but Ed I can see where your coming from.

As for the people comparing giving baths to there dogs and cats there is nothing even close in these two actions. As I have stated before. I give my cat a bath, because she needs it, but I know and can see how upset she gets during this process. I dont leave her in there for an hour. I can tell you right now what she would do. She would flip out... to the point she would probrolly make herself sick, and be mad at me for a lloonnggg time. Giving my cat a 5 min bath is equivalent to wiping my glider down with a washrag.


As I dont think that Ed is being abusive or cruel I do think the method is stressful and in some cases can lead to sickness in a glider if not done exactly right. Even if done right stress CAN cause certain parasites or sickness, and Ed you should know this.

And finally, I dont agree with this information being released in the way it has. I dont care how long youve tried it for or how many people you tell that you yourself trust, posting it in a journal or a thread can lead some very stupid people to try some very stupid things. You should know this as well Ed. People take information meant for one thing and easily apply it to there situation (example: taking down 3 colonies to 1 or 2) to make there life easier. And half of these people are doing your method wrong. That is what I dont agree with.

As well as the mouth wash thing. Should I poor some mouthwash down my pants for a test run and let everyone know how it feels? I just really think that would be uncompfortable, and like I said before.. you know a certain percentage of people is taking the information wrong. Im sure a few people have done this with alcohol mouth wash.

Ok. Im done smile Now just to let Ed and anyone else know none of this was in a mean manner, just trying to make a point. If anything I said came off that way I apologize


"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~
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