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Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009882
09/26/10 10:25 PM
09/26/10 10:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
My mouse is lost and I can't keep up, my finger is tired. LOL.

First off, the 'wiggle gene' in a raw form was talked about at length here and LGG, Nicole has posted about Sheila and Beth's issues with those gliders on LGG, Beth posted her, it's been on AC, it was probably on many boards. It was many many years ago and it was Beth's hunch that a particular line was bad, was it the gliders or was it inbreeding? No one really knew. Now that Nicole has reproduced the same type of joey with the same inbreeding, we still must ask, is it inbreeding or is it that line?

I have many gliders from Frodo's line, some only a few generations away from it, over the years I have had many many joeys born, none wiggle.

There was no cover up, unles it was a recent cover up with the new joeys born. But breeders that have been around forever knew about Beth's gliders.

Nicole, you had a few unrelated joeys with neurological problems last year, there were videos of them too, trips the the vet and symptoms cleared up without treatment. Were these joeys last year any relation to the new sets of joeys?


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Feather] #1009888
09/26/10 10:37 PM
09/26/10 10:37 PM

K
Karen523
Unregistered
Karen523
Unregistered
K



One of the ways that the APHA and the AQHA raise the funds to do the genetic research is by charging a fee to register horses. The Pet Glider Database is a great start, but we need to take it a step further and have a registry that charges a small fee to register gliders into a Sugar Glider Registry. This would require sopmeone with the computer skills and appropriate computers to set it up. People would NOT be allowed to enter their own gliders into the registry. They would pay the fee, fill out an application, and submit the lineage information.
There are also other fund raisers held to raise additional money.
We would need to have several people iinvolved to handle this. Members of the glider registry would be allowed to vote on rules/requrements to get this set up and decide what the fees should be.
All of this won't work at all unless the breeders and owners of gliders are willing to pay and register their gliders.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009890
09/26/10 10:48 PM
09/26/10 10:48 PM

M
Megs
Unregistered
Megs
Unregistered
M



I don't think that's the best idea, but I do think there should be some sort of 'modding' of the registry.

My Tempo is in the registry by my own doing. Her parents were placed together as breeders by somebody who wanted to be a west coast breeder, however none of them were registered. I registered her, and her parents, who are now owned by a friend of mine, registered their new joey. They were already in the database, only because the gal before us got them from their 3rd home.

I have no intentions of breeding, but, heaven forbid I ever need to rehome my Tempo, and the person who took her was a breeder, they'd need that lineage.

Basically, I listed her in case something happens. I feel like in order to help prevent any more of this gliders too closely inbred, we need to take the first step by registering (PROPERLY) our gliders, even though we have ZERO intentions of having to rehome them and there being a chance of them being bred.

I don't know how much sense THAT makes, but in my mind I know what I'm talking about. lol

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Chris_R] #1009893
09/26/10 11:10 PM
09/26/10 11:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: Chris_R
I have a question.....If this is occuring frequently in the Oregon joeys are all of these related to Frodo also?...or is this in fact, just another case to show why inbreeding should not be done


After reading through this entire thread, it seems to be proof that inbreeding should not be done. With the quantity of joeys Frodo produced, then his grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc., etc., it seems that statistically speaking, this would not be an effected line. Especially when all 8 are NOT from the Frodo line. If it were a heterozygous gene, we would see a much higher percentage of offspring with the affliction.

JMO, but I don't see the need to retire/neuter gliders from the Frodo line.

ETA: I have breeding gliders with Frodo in their lineage. I was not aware of a "potential problem". But again, after reading all of the information provided, I don't feel that it's a Frodo genetic defect. Therefore, I am not altering any of my breeding pairs.

Last edited by GliderNursery; 09/26/10 11:12 PM. Reason: my gliders' info

Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009896
09/26/10 11:22 PM
09/26/10 11:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Karen, there was some that were going to try to set up a registry like what you are talking about but really, there just isn't enough interested in paying to register their gliders. I know I wouldn't. I don't pay to register my dogs either (but I also don't breed my dogs). As of right now, we do have the Pet Glider Database and yes, it has it's flaws but Pricilla is very good about correcting any "errors" when they are brought to her attention.

I agree with Shelley. I just think there are way to many decendents from Frodo that are healthy and produced healthy gliders to say that based on these few, it is a problem with the Frodo line. To me, based on what has been stated, it is clear to me that it is evidence of why inbreeding should not be done.

Now, on the inbreeding question...how close is too closely related? Is 7 generations out considered related/inbreeding? Or do we go by the COI to determine that?

Just what is acceptable?

I know my producing gliders have and are producing healthy gliders and while I may be getting some neutered soon, it won't be because of this "wiggle" issue.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Dancing] #1009901
09/26/10 11:50 PM
09/26/10 11:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
Glider Guardian
Glide_Bye_Lily  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
Originally Posted By: Dancing
Now, on the inbreeding question...how close is too closely related? Is 7 generations out considered related/inbreeding? Or do we go by the COI to determine that?

Just what is acceptable?


I believe that second cousin's, genetically speaking, is a safe pairing. Ethically, that's your own opinion and may be frowned upon by many. It has been shown, at least with this defect, that first cousins are too close, and it may be shown in the future that second cousins are too close as well. But as we stand now, it is thought to be safe. In any animal- not just gliders.




Last edited by Glide_Bye_Lily; 09/26/10 11:52 PM.

Allie
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009902
09/26/10 11:58 PM
09/26/10 11:58 PM

K
Karen523
Unregistered
Karen523
Unregistered
K



Thanks Teresa
I do think that this problem only seems to occur when inbreeding is involved. I'm not saying that all inbred gliders from the Frodo line will have this problem, but I do see that inbreeding is more likely to result in genetic issues as oppposed to breeding out.
I'm just really glad to know that my joey will most likely be okay.
I think everyone has to decide for themselves how closely related is too closely related to be an acceptable breeding pair.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009908
09/27/10 01:28 AM
09/27/10 01:28 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
I have also heard of an isolated incident of another genetic defect produced from inbreeding. I won't share the exact situation, as I am not very familliar with it, but it was inbreeding among the leu genes that caused a glider to develope incorrectly and die at age 2.
I am also POSITIVE that there are other genetic defects that have not been identified or made note of that do exist. How many gliders die without a necropsy? One of my rescues died, and we never determined the cause (even with a necropsy)... could it have been from inbreeding of the greys that produced her, I don't know. We won't know unless it happens to her sister as well and it can be documented.

My point is this: wiggle syndrome is a side effect of inbreeding... as is sterility... as are SO MANY other potential defects that we haven't even discovered yet. Some may just be random alignments of several mutated genes that only line up occasionally, and some may be inheritable (sterility). It's our job as breeders to be responsible enough to try to weed those genes/problems/issues out of the population. But that won't happen with pointing at those who had the defect. I think that ALL of the gliders born with ANY defect should have that noted in the pedigree, even if they are pet only, so that we can more easily catch trends and be aware of defects. So, Nicole would put her wiggle babies into the pedigree... even as one joey, noting that there were 3 all born with a neurological defect. If it gets documented, then we can more easily see a trend. BUT I also agree that it is hard to actually put them into the pedigree because many might look at that and automatically assume that Nicole is a bad breeder for putting that pair together... without considering the exact situation that caused the inbreeding and that she has resolved it.

EDIT: Sterility was created due to inbreeding, then it was able to be passed on through the offspring. I do not know a SINGLE breeder that would dare to breed a wiggle baby. And that would be the only way of showing whether the gene was truly genetic... breed a wiggle baby to a glider right out of Frodo (farther up the line) and see if they produced wiggle babies as well. But NONE of us would knowingly do that to the gliders, as we all want the best for them.

Last edited by wildlifeangel; 09/27/10 01:32 AM.

Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Dancing] #1009996
09/27/10 10:27 AM
09/27/10 10:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: Dancing

Now, on the inbreeding question...how close is too closely related? Is 7 generations out considered related/inbreeding? Or do we go by the COI to determine that?


Teresa 7 generations out is NOT inbreeding in anyway. BUT, in the case mentioned they took gliders what were 7 generations out from Frodo and bred them together. Now the thing is these individual gliders were first cousins. Individually they had 0% COI but when paired together the joeys were a 6.2% COI. See the lineage here


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010008
09/27/10 11:16 AM
09/27/10 11:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Adri,

First, let me explain a little about me. I'm a genealogist. I have spent more time than I want to admit tracing my own "lineage". So I am very familiar with how the family trees work. It is often very confusing and most easily figured out if you use a chart.

While on a coi % level, these two may share enough dna to be close to the same as first cousins, they are NOT first cousins at all. That is a mis-lable of their relationship.

These joeys are actually first cousins once removed.

For those that want to really know how their gliders family trees match up on a genealogy level (family relationships) you can use this Family Relationship Chart

With the family tree given for these joeys, it isn't Frodo that is the tie, it is Galthanas. He is Smidgin's father and Kitty's grandfather. Yes, it a very close relationship and inbreeding.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010009
09/27/10 11:18 AM
09/27/10 11:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
Glider Explorer
Chris_R  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
I truely believe this is a inbreeding issue rather than a "bad line" issue as there are common greys with no color lines seen with this condition. We might find with mapping that certain lines are more prone (for lack of a better word) to expessing this wiggle/wobble syndrome when inbreeding occurs but its still an inbreeding issue IMHO....

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010011
09/27/10 11:20 AM
09/27/10 11:20 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,402
Michigan
G
gliderma Offline
Serious Glideritis
gliderma  Offline
Serious Glideritis
G

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,402
Michigan
It would seem that any one of us who has several gliders, has Frodo in the background. I know I do and have never had a wiggle joey. I did neuter Mshki because he was rejected and his twin brother died at 2 wks. oop for no apparent reason. The next set of twins this pair had, also died within 48 hrs. of coming oop. This mother is no longer being bred. These joey's were not wiggle joey's nor were they inbred, but I want to make the point that there are so many things that can go wrong when breeding that we don't understand, it doesn't make sense to go ahead with breeding when we already know there's something wrong. I am glad for this thread as it does get everyone thinking & talking. I hope it can stay civil and not cause drama. We all need to be able to give our opinion as we have a right to that, but not by defaming one another. If you resort to name calling or finger pointing it becomes juvenile and credibility is lost. Simple statements of fact are what is needed. I would love to learn more about the whole genetic thing myself and think it would be awesome if someone would look at my lines and tell me more!


Lynn Martel
616-272-4374
989-400-5686
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010013
09/27/10 11:24 AM
09/27/10 11:24 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Lynn,
use that chart that I posted the link to. Input your gliders lineages in to the appropriate places and take a look.

If you have a common ancestor, even as far back as 8 generations, you can use that chart to see how they are really related to each other. It doesn't give a coi% but it actually gives a "label" to their relationship.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010019
09/27/10 12:24 PM
09/27/10 12:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
Is there something in Frodo's line? Yes, prob. something small but there. Where the problem is is when you pair closely related gliders, If each related glider carries a small flaw, together it can combine and make a large problem. Such as his wiggle thing.

Other closely related gliders not from the Frodo line, if they have some small gene that does not express itself visually, if that line was also closely inbreed... they too could come up with a genetic defect. Maybe not a wiggle issue, maybe a internal issue that can't be seen, maybe sterility, maybe .... could be anything. That is the reason inbreeding should not happen, not in the Frodo line, not in any line.

The only thing proven here is that we can see a gentic flaw in this closely inbreed line. There was a result, good to know. Many years ago it was only in one pair, no one knew if that was a fluke or related from that inbreeding. It was guess that inbreeding caused the problem. Now that a simular inbreeding has resulted in a like problem, it only makes it clearer that there is a problem, not only with inbreeding but inbreeding that particular line.

But just because you can't see a flaw in other closely related inbreed gliders, it doesn't mean there isn't a problem. It might be a flaw that causes early deaths. We don't have the funds or the research to show every problem. Avoid the flaws you can see, and the ones you can't but NOT inbreeding any line. Esp. the Frodo line. because that is something that has been stupidly duplicated. Great, now we know. Don't do it again.


So if you have Frodo way back in your line, there is no need to panic. Most colored gliders, wf and mos, will have Frodo in their past. Just because you can't see it on the PSG database... doesn't mean he wasn't there. Severl of us breeders keep our lines back as far as possible, they just don't show up online and I promise you... Frodo has hundreds of desendants, if not more. If you have a close relation to Frodo, don't pair it to it's aunt, uncle, grandpa, sister, brother, mother, father. But then you shouldn't be pairing any joey to it's aunt, uncle, grandpa, sister, brother, mother father. There is no secret there. We have discouraged that for many many years. We can not undo the damgage that was done in the past when breeders were not as educated as they are now. Dog breeders still do it, most don't, all shouldn't, but we can't change the past.

And, if you have gliders that are related, don't house them together no mater how broke you are. If they have to live in a travel cage, a daytripper, whatever, isn't that better than producing geneticly damanged joeys that will have a difficult life at best? Isn't producing this type of joey more damaging in the long rung than seperating bonded joeys? They can always be reintroduced once you have the money to neuter.

Last edited by queenduck; 09/27/10 12:32 PM. Reason: added more

Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010023
09/27/10 12:29 PM
09/27/10 12:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17
Henderson, CO
LadyRaven Offline
New Member
LadyRaven  Offline
New Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17
Henderson, CO
Has it been proven that this is a true recessive gene?

Often, it may not be a clear cut case between recessive and dominate, and there may be gene penetrance issues as well as multiple gene interactions. Has anyone run the statistics, or at least done a genetic tree?

Also, it is important to remember that the same sponaneous mutation may arise more than once in a population. This is more common in large populations and with point mutations.

However, the breeding of any known carriers of such a mutation, and adding their offspring to the 'genetic pool' will absolutely increase the incidence of both carriers and those with the phenotype, and may eventually affect those animals that are not closely inbred.

Part of the point of tracking lineages in animals is to be able to isolate and remove certain detrimental genetic traits.


”Aos meus amigos, tudo; aos meus inimigos, a lei."-Getulio Vargas- ...roughly "For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law."
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: queenduck] #1010031
09/27/10 01:11 PM
09/27/10 01:11 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict
nancy1202  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
One of my breeding gliders, Lukas (Gilthanas' son), was mentioned prominently in the first post in this thread as being a "KNOWN 50% het carrier" for the wiggle gene. Yeah, I was a little panicked and taken aback since I had just learned about this a few weeks ago. He is paired with a lion who in fact does have Frodo in her lineage, 6 generations back.

They have had 3 healthy joeys to-date, with two more IP. Mom did have mastitis with the last set, and the joeys had to be pulled at 5 weeks OOP, but that wasn't due to any condition with the joeys. Many of you met them at the SGGA and they will be coming to FIGG with me in a few weeks.

If a pairing is going to produce this wiggle gene, wouldn't 0 out of 3 be a pretty good indicator that they won't?

I have no intention of breeding him or any of his offspring with a close relative. His only son is scheduled to be neutered tomorrow morning so he can join one of Melinda's non-breeding cages. She has gotten pretty attached to the little guy since hand-feeding him! This was decided long before I had any inkling of this supposedly genetic condition.

Lukas will not be neutered. I see no reason to at this time. It makes sense to me that the wiggle condition is most likely a result of inbreeding, as can be many other obvious and obscure genetic anomalies. Only 3 pairs have produced this out of hundreds or thousands of descendants. I'm not convinced that there haven't been more occurrences. Many breeders have "oops" matings. Not so many inform the community by posting about them.


~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Jackson/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Ramon/Paloma, Charming/Snow
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010047
09/27/10 03:04 PM
09/27/10 03:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
OK, I am not going back to read 5 pages here (I have read most of this on another board) but I would like to share a couple thoughts.

IF this is truly involving a recessive gene then the expression of the 'wiggle gene' can be seen in the offspring of any glider pair where each parent is a carrier of the gene.

Will all pairs that have two 'carrier' parents have joeys that have the 'wiggle syndrome'? NO. Each individual joey has a 25% chance of getting a copy of the gene from both parents and showing the syndrome. Each individual joey from the same pair has a 75% chance of looking normal. Any of the normal joeys have will either have no copy of the gene (25% chance) or have one copy (50%) and be a carrier like their parents. It is possible that some affected joeys are non-survivors - the ones that vanish before coming oop or the ones that the parents dispose of within a short time oop.

The current standard for breeders is to look at lineage for a pair of gliders - ancestors only - to figure out if the gliders are closely related - or if they do have a COMMON ANCESTOR - if it is enough generations back to be considered 'safe' to breed the pair.

The problem appears when that common ancestor has a recessive gene that can potentially pass unseen through a number of generations before a pair of gliders each carrying the gene are bred and have a joey with the problem. Such a pair could also have all perfectly healthy joeys - but some may be carriers into the next generation.

The Pet Glider Database is a wonderful tool to compare the ancestors of two gliders. It does not however allow us to trace the DESCENDANTS of a glider with a potential recessive gene that results in something like the 'wiggle syndrome' being discussed here.

By charting all of the DESCENDANTS of a glider with a possible problem gene (in this case FRODO) and flagging the joeys showing this problem and any 'lost' joeys as possibly having the problem then the pattern of inheritance of the recessive trait can be seen in multiple joeys that are distantly related by several generations but all connected to the original carrier by other gliders that have inherited the gene and passed it on to their apparently normal offspring.

This type descendant chart could be evaluated by a geneticist to determine if there is or is not a pattern that fits the recessive gene pattern.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

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Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010049
09/27/10 03:10 PM
09/27/10 03:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict
hwh4ev  Offline
Glider Addict
H

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
i agree nancy. how many gliders are out there with this problem as we know of only 2 or 3 breeders so far. has this happened with other lines besides the frodo line and i also wonder if the wiggle problem has happened without inbreeding and we just havent found out yet.

regards,
nancy in fl/detroit


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Dancing] #1010084
09/27/10 04:59 PM
09/27/10 04:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: Dancing

While on a coi % level, these two may share enough dna to be close to the same as first cousins, they are NOT first cousins at all. That is a mis-lable of their relationship.


They're not cousins. They're uncle and niece. However, you're correct, the COI is identical to that of a first-cousin pairing.

BTW, just in case anyone is looking at my database and wondering why some of the gliders have 2 COI's listed, it's because I updated the database to a newer version, one that is able to calculate COIs on it's own(woohoo! dance ). However, a couple were off by a little bit, so I left up the old COI's til I can fix the glitch. tounge So, yeah, just thought I'd mention that in case anyone is like me and loves clicking links and ends up wonder about the double COIs, lol!


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: queenduck] #1010092
09/27/10 05:17 PM
09/27/10 05:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: queenduck

Nicole, you had a few unrelated joeys with neurological problems last year.


I've never had gliders neurological problems until now. I did, however, have 2 gliders(a joey and a completely unrelated female) have a sudden onset of shakes and muscle spams in the form of the clenching of their back feet. In both instances it passed within about an hour or so. It was caused by severe calcium deficiency(confirmed via blood tests) which my vet concluded was because of their diet. Once I switched diets it never happened again.

That must be what you're thinking of because at the time, before blood tests were done, I was [censored] out and thought my gliders were having seizures. Later it was found to be caused by the calcium deficiency.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010113
09/27/10 06:05 PM
09/27/10 06:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
Nancy

Quote:
If a pairing is going to produce this wiggle gene, wouldn't 0 out of 3 be a pretty good indicator that they won't?


You just need to be aware that IF both of your gliders carry a recessive gene responsible for the 'wiggle syndrome' then each individual joey has a 25% chance of inheriting two copies of the gene. The fact that the first 3 joeys are all normal does not change that percentage for any future individual joeys. It is also possible that even with Frodo as a common ancestor that neither of the parent gliders carry the gene, or if only one does it will remain hidden but could appear in a future generation.

Any pair of gliders that produces a 'wiggle' joey would then be identified CARRIERS of the gene - and at least one of their parents is also a carrier if the gene - in this case it would most likely be the one that was a Frodo descendant.

A geneticist would look at other descendants of the common ancestor (Frodo in this case) in the same generation - to see if there are any other gliders showing the same problems. That is how they work back generation by generation to identify the likely carriers of the recessive gene.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010122
09/27/10 06:35 PM
09/27/10 06:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
I still don't see this as a genetic defect in Frodo's line. How many Frodo decedents have been bred together throughout the years; "safely" paired together due to the generational gaps between them? Many. Yet still, we only have 3 breeding pairs, that were admittedly inbred, that have produced these few wiggle syndrome joeys.

Again, I think that statistically, this is strictly an inbreeding problem, not an inherited genetic flaw. I'm not a geneticist by far, so I'm only speaking based on my personal opinion.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

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Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010147
09/27/10 08:04 PM
09/27/10 08:04 PM

K
Karen523
Unregistered
Karen523
Unregistered
K



Okay, after asking more questions I have learned that there is not even one single glider with the wiggle problem that was not inbred. Every single wiggle baby is inbred. Can anyone here refute that? I seriously don't think so.
There is absolutely no reason not to breed gliders from the Frodo line.
The person who first sent me a pm telling me about this problem, did not tell the full story even though she knew the truth. This is an *inbreeding* issue! It is not a "Frodo" issue!
I want to publicly apologize to Rosie's breeder for all the fuss that was caused about her gliders. Rosie's breeder is a responsible breeder and she did give full consideration to the pair I purchased. She did her job correctly and responsibly. She has many awesome gliders, and I would not hesitate to buy more gliders from her in the future.

I do feel that it is important to let known breeding issues be known in public so that we can all weigh that information to make good choices when pairing up gliders for breeding purposes. When people don't know the truth, we tend to become very fearful about what *might* be. When we are allowed to know the full story, we can avoid panic and fear and become more educated about breeding our gliders.
We all need to consider how we present information to the glider community. It is inappropriate to give partial information just for the prupose of causing an uproar. If you have a grudge against someone, take it private, do not abuse your privledges here on Glider Central.
the person who first sent me the pm about this issue has completely discredited themself in my eyes.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ] #1010149
09/27/10 08:12 PM
09/27/10 08:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,937
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline
Owner
KarenE  Offline
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 42,937
LittleRock, AR USA
Thank you for that clarification without bringing names into the post, Karen.

I am glad to see this thread has taken a turn from where it started yesterday.

Let's keep it going so that good information can come from this.

Please do not get sidetracked by what may have happened. Just keep it going as it is. Everyone is doing a wonderful job.


Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help


Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Adri] #1010156
09/27/10 08:22 PM
09/27/10 08:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict
jacknsally  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: Adri
The only verified instances of wiggle babies that can be traced to any line at all are these :

http://www.justforfuzzies.com/cgi/trial....bmit=Create+Now This pair produced 3 wiggles and this pair http://www.justforfuzzies.com/cgi/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=352&gens=5&db=sugarglider.dbw who has also produced 3 wiggles.



Nicole is this true? If so, what's the story & the details with the other pair producing 3 joeys with this disorder? I saw your post about why Kitty & Smidgin did but why would the other set produce 3 joeys after having just 1 with this?

Also since a large % of the joeys with this "wiggle" come from your pairings/gliders- could this be something related to the nutritional issues you were suffering with last year? It just seems odd and possibly related to just your gliders/or a nutritional situation & not the genetic line from certain gliders.

You have 2 rejected joeys at the same time, who then later produce multiple joeys with a disorder. Could it be related to rejected joeys breeding? There have been other hand raised joeys that have bred with no issues but you just doubled the possibility of an issue if there could be one with rejected joeys breeding & then the inbreeding just escalated the situation.

I know you've apologized for allowing Smidgin & Kitty to breed but, you have been one to tell people when a pair should not be together unless neutered but yet you keep a very close related pair together then allow them to produce more than once after realizing the devastating results from their first breeding??

So how/why was the other pair allowed to produce 3 joeys with this issue?


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010172
09/27/10 09:09 PM
09/27/10 09:09 PM

K
Karen523
Unregistered
Karen523
Unregistered
K



Nancy, I know you are not critisizing Nicole so please don't think this post is directed at you.
I can't speak for Nicole, and I will leave it to her to respond to your post.
From what I have learned, this is not an issue stemming from rejected joeys. It's from inbreeding.
If the owner of wiggle babies has not figured out what caused the joeys to be wiggle babies, then yes, there could possibly be more wiggle babies from the same pairing.
It may be that the owner thought it was a nutritional issue. Or an environmental issue (such as mold). I don't believe anyone would intentionally breed wiggle babies.
This is exactly why we need to keep this sort of information available to the entire glider community. When we consider the limited factual information we have on glider genetics, the truth is, this sort of thing could happen to just about anyone who breeds gliders.
We need to keep in mind that hind sight is 20/20. It would be easy to look at what previous breeders have done and critisize their breeding choices, but we owe some respect to those breeders. Those breeders had to figure this stuff out without the benefit of the examples that we have available today. And this wiggle issue is still not a well known issue, so we need to be careful not to point our fingers at people when they didn't know about this any more than we did before the last few days.
These types of breeding issues are bound to crop up in the future. I really hope we can all share what we learn without creating a stigma for the breeders or gliders who discover these issues.
We need to have open communication and mature dialogue about these issues for the benefit of the entire glider community.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010174
09/27/10 09:11 PM
09/27/10 09:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
S
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarlope  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
S

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
The lineages for both pairings are on Nicole's website, but Nicole didn't breed Beatrice and Dante.


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: jacknsally] #1010178
09/27/10 09:18 PM
09/27/10 09:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: jacknsally
Originally Posted By: Adri
The only verified instances of wiggle babies that can be traced to any line at all are these :

http://www.justforfuzzies.com/cgi/trial....bmit=Create+Now This pair produced 3 wiggles and this pair http://www.justforfuzzies.com/cgi/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=352&gens=5&db=sugarglider.dbw who has also produced 3 wiggles.



Nicole is this true? If so, what's the story & the details with the other pair producing 3 joeys with this disorder? I saw your post about why Kitty & Smidgin did but why would the other set produce 3 joeys after having just 1 with this?

Also since a large % of the joeys with this "wiggle" come from your pairings/gliders- could this be something related to the nutritional issues you were suffering with last year? It just seems odd and possibly related to just your gliders/or a nutritional situation & not the genetic line from certain gliders.

You have 2 rejected joeys at the same time, who then later produce multiple joeys with a disorder. Could it be related to rejected joeys breeding? There have been other hand raised joeys that have bred with no issues but you just doubled the possibility of an issue if there could be one with rejected joeys breeding & then the inbreeding just escalated the situation.

I know you've apologized for allowing Smidgin & Kitty to breed but, you have been one to tell people when a pair should not be together unless neutered but yet you keep a very close related pair together then allow them to produce more than once after realizing the devastating results from their first breeding??

So how/why was the other pair allowed to produce 3 joeys with this issue?


Nancy I want to clarify something, the 1st pair to produce the wiggle joeys did not belong to Nicole nor was she involved in any way shape or form with it. I just happened to use the link to her lineage database. I'm sorry if that caused a confusion.

Her pair Kitty & Smidgin produced 3 joeys with the syndrome.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Adri] #1010183
09/27/10 09:25 PM
09/27/10 09:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict
jacknsally  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
Oh ok, thanks for the clarification Adri, I was thinking they were Nicoles. These other 3 do not include the 2 Beth has spoken of through the years?


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1010189
09/27/10 09:36 PM
09/27/10 09:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
The two that Beth has are 2 of the 3 from Beatrice & Dante.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
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