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Been a while, so I feel new again.....
by gary. 06/18/19 01:39 PM
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by Ladymagyver. 06/16/19 05:26 PM
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by Claralice. 06/15/19 11:59 AM
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Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009660
09/26/10 03:50 PM
09/26/10 03:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 680
michigan
cryingoutloud37 Offline
Glider Guardian
cryingoutloud37  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 680
michigan
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome

However - yes ... the most recent instances were a 7th generation Frodo line glider bred to a 5th generation Frodo line glider (I will have to confirm those, but I know that one was 7th generation.) There was no indication prior to their 2 joeys being born that either was a carrier for the gene. So - YES, low percentage hets can prove out.


Did that breeding pair only produce those two wiggle babies or have they produced normal babies as well???

Did the breeder of the two wiggle babies know of this disorder prior to creating this breeding pair?


-Shannon-


If everyone put their problems in a pile, you just might want to grab yours back!

http://www.motowngliders.com/

Lots of Beautiful and Sweet Gliders

Six Skin Kids: Jake, Alie, Nick, Samantha, Ben and Luci
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: SugarBlossoms] #1009661
09/26/10 03:53 PM
09/26/10 03:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms

Alden, what does the ESG mean by Lily's name?


I copied the names right out of the Pet Glider Database - so I would assume that ESG is some sort of breeder code as to who bred or owns this glider? Just as the (tspsugar) by one of the gliders indicates that this is the breeder for that glider.

I'm off to the dog park, and maybe to clean the house? So - I'm going to be gone. I do not know that I'm the best person to give advice or answer these questions anyway. I'm only trying my best to fill an information gap. Hopefully those with more direct knowledge can come here and calmly answer questions.

I do NOT believe that anyone made malicious decisions regarding sharing of information. I think that perhaps some "we know what's best for everyone" type of logic went into the decision making. However, I think that was an honest decision, made to protect the glider community. Let's NOT prove them correct by creating panic!

Last edited by ValkyrieMome; 09/26/10 04:04 PM. Reason: logic and spelling

Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: SugarBlossoms] #1009663
09/26/10 03:56 PM
09/26/10 03:56 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,099
Vulcan, MO
Meg_n_Von Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Meg_n_Von  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

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Posts: 12,099
Vulcan, MO
Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms
Alden, what does the ESG mean by Lily's name?


I'm pretty sure that stands for Exotic Sugar Gliders. It's a breeders site, here's the link - http://exoticsugargliders.net - if you want to check it out.

Last edited by Meg_n_Von; 09/26/10 03:58 PM. Reason: Changed the .org to .net

Megan & LaVaughn

Sugar Exotics

:bb: Kira :grey: Sadie - Neal :wfb: Pip - Violet :rtmo: Logan - Charli - Tyler - Seamus :plat: Chloe - Cas :leu: Boone

RIP David
Your life was short lived, but your memory will last forever.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009669
09/26/10 04:08 PM
09/26/10 04:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
I do not feel that retiring all gliders affiliated with Frodo is the answer here. I have had experience with a similar issue in Ball Pythons with Wobblers. Long story short there it boiled down to no one caring about inbreeding in snakes, and through bad decisions and choices it ran rampant and really devastated a few morph variations (colors).

Why hasnt this happened here too?

Because, we keep track of lineages, until recently no one cared about inbreeding brother/sister in snakes, or to keep tabs on who bred to who. Because gliders have such meticulous lineage upkeep, we track COI etc this is a very limited problem. I forsee it being limited as long as we are all smart and responsible.

What does this mean for you me us?

Retiring, neutering, separating pairs based on this information should not be your first step - please please please contact someone who has more experience with this issue and can further explain this to you - ie a large breeder, someone who has been in the community a long time or a trusted friend who seems to know. Majority of WFB, lots of leus and some plat lines have these 'tainted' gliders in them. With NO problems. If the COI is low, and the gliders in question are farther back in the lines, and you arent inbreeding directly or indirectly (line) then you should be safe. Be smart, be responsible, be aware.

This is a very small number of animals actually reflecting this trait (I too will call it a genetic disorder as I do think thats a accurate statement IMO) I do think the 100% and 50% of these gliders should be further looked into to see really what the likelihood of them passing the trait is, but that is up to those breeders and we can only hope that they are making responsible pairings and are informing new joey owners of the potential risk.


Meg is right - the letters behind the name is coding for the breeder who owns the glider. Tsp sugar is a breeder so is ESG its their glider is what it means just like my gliders have my name behind them ex Artic (SKSG) etc in the database. Helps keep things organized smile

Last edited by Obsolescenttears; 09/26/10 04:10 PM.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009670
09/26/10 04:19 PM
09/26/10 04:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Thanks Meg! I was worried and wanted to check on Lily's line (the Lily I needed to check has passed away years ago) so, turns out, wrong Lily.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009677
09/26/10 04:38 PM
09/26/10 04:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Suggiegramma Offline
Glider Slave
Suggiegramma  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Unless a breeder knows what they're doing, they wouldn't know Frodo would be in their glider's lineage since tpg only shows 4 generations, and most use that when looking at lineages. You'd have to know to go farther into the lineage on both sides of the Great-Grandparents to make sure. I hope people will do that now that this has come up.


Virginia

Suggies
Sachi,Miuccia,Mignon,Cosette,Blaise,Florianna,Fabio,
Abbi,Fletcher,Eshton,Hansel,Gretel,Sahara,Parker,SugarBear,
Emily,Ariana,Symphony,Mozart,Smeegle,Cocoa,Hershey,Tippy,
Hollister,Anastasia,Buffy,Tawny,Stormy,Aurora,Chance,Karma,
Kristoff,Ruby.


Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009691
09/26/10 05:16 PM
09/26/10 05:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 680
michigan
cryingoutloud37 Offline
Glider Guardian
cryingoutloud37  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 680
michigan
The only thing I find disheartening at this time it that this was A SECRET?!?!?!? What were the intentions for keeping it a secret??? The only answer I can come up with would be so breeders who knew this didn't lose MONEY! In my opinion I would have to say that any offspring that may carry this genetic defect should be sold as a pet only glider! Genetic defect no matter how slim the chance of rearing it's ugly head is still a genetic DEFECT! Breeding a line with a known genetic defect seems less like breeding and more like experimenting?!?!? I see no need to panic...but stop the madness now! I have at least one glider that will be pulled from my breeding program he is 25% possible het. I understand my breeder may or may not have been aware of this and I place no blame but to those of you who were aware this existed......hmmmm I just don't understand! I understand if you choose breed a wiggle het and do not breed with a glider from frodo line you can produce healthy babies who will not show but possibly carry the defect. I see how we can justify that pairing but you ARE STILL BREEDING A GLIDER WITH A GENETIC DEFECT! It isn't a gray matter it is right their in BLACK AND WHITE!

Last edited by cryingoutloud37; 09/26/10 05:17 PM.

-Shannon-


If everyone put their problems in a pile, you just might want to grab yours back!

http://www.motowngliders.com/

Lots of Beautiful and Sweet Gliders

Six Skin Kids: Jake, Alie, Nick, Samantha, Ben and Luci
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009692
09/26/10 05:19 PM
09/26/10 05:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
A couple (at least) of the gliders listed above to carry this gene have a common name in the Pet Glider Database. How do we know WHICH one it is that carries the gene?


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009693
09/26/10 05:20 PM
09/26/10 05:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
The 'secret' idea has been addressed many times now.

There was no secret. Many people knew about it - just not us LOL. There have been people in the community who openly discussed this on many forums including GC. It wasnt hushed up or anything like that, but there is very little information concerning this (vet reports etc) and as we all know a lot of things fall away w/out this information being provided. Recently there are some new joeys that cropped up with this issue which is why its being brought up again with concern (I think).

So.... it wasnt hushed, it wasnt a secret, we just didnt know - and now we do. Now we can move on from that small concern to the real concern of how to keep track of this problem and make smart choices. smile

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009696
09/26/10 05:27 PM
09/26/10 05:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
Alden, the percentages you have listed are not accurate. You listed Precious as a 100% het, when in fact that is not accurate unless she proved to carry the gene. Her father (galanthes?) did for sure carry the gene, but Precious has not, to my knowledge, proven to carry it. Even if BOTH her parents carried it, that only makes her a 66% carrier.

So, several of the gliders listed as 50% hets are actually only 25% hets, such as my Bailey. She is 3 months old, so i also don't understand the need to list her in checking pedigrees...

There ARE more genetic defects... some we are aware of, and some we may not be. This is one that we ARE aware of, and if we document each wiggle baby that is produced, it will give people a better idea of what we are looking at and how close our gliders are to the defect and if they will produce that defect.

My biggest concern is that everyone is now panicked, and they shouldn't be. I was aware of the defect when I bought Bailey, I knew to avoid breeding her with any glider closely related to the Frodo line.

Last edited by wildlifeangel; 09/26/10 05:31 PM. Reason: I knew

Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009698
09/26/10 05:28 PM
09/26/10 05:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 680
michigan
cryingoutloud37 Offline
Glider Guardian
cryingoutloud37  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 680
michigan
How about all the breeders who are now realizing they indeed have the possibility of wiggle het list it in the remarks in the lineage "possible wiggle het" on TPG. Maybe their gliders will never produce the defect maybe none of the offspring will but it will be right there in the lineage. That would make it easy to track to see the outcome of continuing to breed these lines if that is what breeders choose to do.


-Shannon-


If everyone put their problems in a pile, you just might want to grab yours back!

http://www.motowngliders.com/

Lots of Beautiful and Sweet Gliders

Six Skin Kids: Jake, Alie, Nick, Samantha, Ben and Luci
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009700
09/26/10 05:33 PM
09/26/10 05:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
If all of the confirmed carriers of it would be documented in the pedigree, and all wiggle babies added to the pedigree, we would be able to do the % hets just as easily as we do any other hets. "Possible wiggle het" would be too broad and would encompass all, from 66% to 3.15%
If we document and adjust the % just like we do when gliders prove out for any other gene... it should be fine.


Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009702
09/26/10 05:37 PM
09/26/10 05:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Nadine Baily is listed because her mother (Precious) is listed as a 100% carrier and Precious's father (Gilthanas)is listed as a 100% carrier by Aldens calculations. And its not generations back Bailys mama is being considered a known carrier. Though who knows if the trait will present in Baily herself she is in the direct lineup which is why I think Alden included her.

Alden, really looking forward to your chart to help explain this further. Also what is the likelihood of Nadines glider proving out this trait in reality? I think Nadine would have to inbreed for it to be a concern correct? Who is Bailys mate have you checked to see if Bailys mate has Frodo lines yet to see if its even a concern?

Are all the 100% carriers that you posted Alden proven that they carry it ie they had babies or their babies had babies with the genetic defect for sure?

Last edited by Obsolescenttears; 09/26/10 05:41 PM.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009705
09/26/10 05:41 PM
09/26/10 05:41 PM

D
DeniseDren
Unregistered
DeniseDren
Unregistered
D



Thank you for bringing up this topic. I am fairly new to gliders, but in order to be a responsible glider owner, I need to know what "issues" are out there. At least it gives me the information I need to make better decisions for purchasing and pairing gliders. It also makes me wonder what else is out there that I am not aware of. Maybe there needs to be another thread started.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: SugarBlossoms] #1009706
09/26/10 05:42 PM
09/26/10 05:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms
A couple (at least) of the gliders listed above to carry this gene have a common name in the Pet Glider Database. How do we know WHICH one it is that carries the gene?


Alden, do you know WHICH Molly is in the list as being a HET for "wiggle"?


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009708
09/26/10 05:44 PM
09/26/10 05:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
Their future offspring are in the pedigree. Bailey Kaluah joeys. Kaluah is 5 generations out of Frodo, from Panzy's line. I will keep them together, as they get along very well and there is actually a low chance of the gene being expressed.

Tianna, Precious has NOT been proven to carry the gene, so she is either 50% or 66% because her father carried the gene, not sure if her mother had the gene or not. Which means, Bailey is NOT 50%, she is either 33% or 25%.


Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009710
09/26/10 05:52 PM
09/26/10 05:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Quote:
The KNOWN 100% carriers of this gene are:
Frodo Boogie Beatrice Dante Violet Calypso Mallory Gardenia Poppins Gilthanas Precious Smidgin Kitty


I said they were listed as being such - not that they were. Is Gilthanas proven?

I would like to know then why gliders who are not proven, as Nadine states Precious is not proven to carry the gene why they are being listed as 100% hets... since we are going to be using that information to base major decisions on we need accurate information.

Why did those gliders get the tag of KNOWN carriers if infact they are not known to be carriers?


Last edited by Obsolescenttears; 09/26/10 05:56 PM.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009711
09/26/10 05:57 PM
09/26/10 05:57 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,511
Texas
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict
Jackie_Chans_Mom  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,511
Texas
Quote:
That as a result of this research

What research was conducted?
Is this what you refer to as research above:
Quote:
I can think for myself, and I'm able to trace lineages, and draw reasonable conclusions all by myself.


Quote:
Therefore, ALL information that is potentially relevant should be brought out, discussed calmly and made public knowledge.

I agree.
So, I am going to repeat the same questions I asked on TSS:

I do not feel we should be telling everyone to go neuter gliders right away. Why don't I feel that way? Well, because no one so far has answered my questions or PROVEN to me that this is a genetic flaw attached to this line rather than a randomly occurring flaw or some other issue all together.

Let's look at the science of this and just get some questions answered. I am NOT a geneticist, nor am I a breeder, so I honestly do not know the answers to these questions. What I do know a little something about is research. So, if we are going to say that we have conducted research and that gliders are KNOWN carriers of a genetic flaw, then I expect that these questions are going to be easily answered by those who conducted the research. Having these questions answered would certainly help us better understand the issue at hand and act intelligently, with full knowledge of the subject matter rather than based on a panic response.

* How many gliders were tested? How many show this "wiggle gene?"
* How do we KNOW It is attached to a gene?
* How long did this research take?
* Who conducted the research? What are their credentials?
* Was genetic mapping done? IF so, by whom? Where? Can we have more done?
* Were gliders OUTSIDE of this line tested?
* What sort of testing was conducted? What tests were run? What did they show?

* What other possibilities for the behavior of these gliders were explored? I have gliders who exhibit these exact same symptoms, but are not in this line. I kNOW the cause of their neurological issues. It is not genetic. So, with ALL of these gliders, were tests run to rule out toxins, malnutrition, parasites, bacterial infections, deformity, etc?

* How do we know this is not just a randomly occurring event? That it is only attached to the Frodo line? Were ALL OTHER lines tested (including those outside this community?) Or at least a large enough sample of other lines to rule out the occurrence of this in other lines?

* Are there absolutely no examples of this happening outside of this line? How do we know/conclude this? Where is this information?

* Have we allowed for the fact that most of the gliders living as pets in this country are NOT represented by the members of these online forums? If so, how did that impact the test results and conclusions?

* Is it possible that this is something that attaches to the WF gene(s) and not just to the Frodo line? How do we KNOW this?

I guess what I am saying is I hear a lot of talk about KNOWING and FOR SURE and GENETIC MUTATION and I don't know how we got to this point. HOW do we KNOW FOR SURE this is a GENETIC MUTATION attached only to this line?

And, if we have this proof - if the research was conducted and is backed by sound scientific principal and data, then WHY was it not presented to the community as such?

Just listing names and stating that you KNOW something does not make it a fact. Calling something research does not make it scientific or validate your conclusions.
Considering my role in this community, Yes, I'm gonna ask for proof. I think this is necessary BEFORE we start suggesting people stop breeding gliders or neuter an entire line of gliders.

There is an issue with some of these joeys - that is not in question. The question at hand is: Is this genetic? If so, is it linked to the WF gene, the Frodo line or something else all together? Can this just be a randomly occurring event? Could there be another explanation/cause?


~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009713
09/26/10 05:58 PM
09/26/10 05:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome

The gliders listed as 100% hets for this syndrome have either produced joeys with the wiggle gene, or their parents have.


This is at the bottom of page 1. That is what I was referring to when i said she was not proven to carry the gen.

EDIT: Gilthanas was paired to 3 different females, Violet, Rosa, and Silvara. Depending on which female produced the wiggle babies... that DOES effect the %s.

Last edited by wildlifeangel; 09/26/10 06:08 PM.

Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009715
09/26/10 06:01 PM
09/26/10 06:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Tianna, Molly is my Mary Roses' mother, Ched is in there too, NONE of the offspring have the "wiggle" syndrome nor do any of Marys' joeys. I agree, how can they be considered 100% HET for a gene when it hasn't proved out in many gliders at all?


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009717
09/26/10 06:04 PM
09/26/10 06:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Suggiegramma Offline
Glider Slave
Suggiegramma  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Good question T, who are the known carriers? Maybe someone will step up and answer the question.

Nadine, people shouldn't be panicked, but they should be VERY concerned. I guess you were one of the lucky ones who were informed of this. When I purchased my Mozart, the breeder said NOTHING about the possibility of this gene popping up. She was the owner of Frodo and the breeder of Mozart. So, why, I wonder? How were you told?



Virginia

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Sachi,Miuccia,Mignon,Cosette,Blaise,Florianna,Fabio,
Abbi,Fletcher,Eshton,Hansel,Gretel,Sahara,Parker,SugarBear,
Emily,Ariana,Symphony,Mozart,Smeegle,Cocoa,Hershey,Tippy,
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Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009720
09/26/10 06:05 PM
09/26/10 06:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Right, which is why im confused as to how Alden got information that she was indeed proven but you are here saying she isnt proven. I would really like the proof behind each glider that is being listed as proven carrier.

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009723
09/26/10 06:06 PM
09/26/10 06:06 PM

D
DeniseDren
Unregistered
DeniseDren
Unregistered
D



Can someone who is knowledgeable in genetics related to this issue, please PM me?

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009726
09/26/10 06:10 PM
09/26/10 06:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
I was told because Bailey's breeder has produced wiggle babies. She wanted me to be well aware and prepared to keep away from inbreeding the line.


Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009727
09/26/10 06:11 PM
09/26/10 06:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
And those wiggle babies are they related to Bailey at all?

Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009730
09/26/10 06:13 PM
09/26/10 06:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
She told me that Gil had produced wiggle babies... but i also do not know what female was the mother of the wiggle babies.

CORRECTION: Gil has NOT produced the wiggle babies. The only babies that were produced with the wiggle gene from there were inbred.

There are other gliders from other lines with the issue.

Last edited by wildlifeangel; 09/26/10 06:18 PM.

Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: Obsolescenttears] #1009731
09/26/10 06:17 PM
09/26/10 06:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Originally Posted By: Obsolescenttears
Right, which is why im confused as to how Alden got information that she was indeed proven but you are here saying she isnt proven. I would really like the proof behind each glider that is being listed as proven carrier.


I'm very confused also. Mary Rose is fine, all of her joeys are fine (Cheryl, Dustin (Buddy), Dew Drop and Lucy) I know of NO gliders related to Mary that have this "syndrome". I want to know how she can considered a "HET". IF there are ANY gliders with it, "I" need to know!


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009732
09/26/10 06:27 PM
09/26/10 06:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
It was mentioned previously, and it was dismissed as being "irrelevant" previously. It wasn't a "secret" per se - but it was hushed up.

If it was NOT hushed up, then why are these breeders so angry with me now for posting this information? If it wasn't hushed up, then this thread should be just another "ho hum - mentioning THAT again" thread. Instead - some of the people who knew, who own the wiggle joeys, or have bred them, are ANGRY with me.

There are breeders who did not want this to be general knowledge simply because of money. Those same breeders have encouraged pairs that are very questionable. In my opinion, they have done so to make a buck.

Val - I'd love to answer all your questions, but I can't. The people directly involved could - if they chose to. But instead they've chosen to respond with both denial and anger. I posted the information I had. There is more information - but I don't have access to it.

I WILL be making that chart now, documenting this syndrome. So - I'll be back in a bit with that!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009733
09/26/10 06:30 PM
09/26/10 06:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Alden ~~~ Can you please explain w/ proof or lineage charts/links or something why those gliders are listed as 100%. Go through the list and state how many joeys are attached to that particular glider that has wiggles or as to why that glider is being stated as 100%? This will help clear up a really big question that is sitting here being unanswered.

Last edited by Obsolescenttears; 09/26/10 06:31 PM.
Re: URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered [Re: ValkyrieMome] #1009735
09/26/10 06:31 PM
09/26/10 06:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict
hwh4ev  Offline
Glider Addict
H

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
thank you alden. i for one do appreciate this news and it will help me and many others in selecting their next breeding pair.

regards,
nancy in fl/detroit

Last edited by hwh4ev; 09/26/10 07:10 PM.

regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
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